[HN Gopher] Riven
___________________________________________________________________
Riven
Author : doppp
Score : 452 points
Date : 2024-05-19 03:34 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.filfre.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.filfre.net)
| nikodunk wrote:
| Incredible game and atmosphere to this day. I would love to see
| the original models and maybe even try to render them in real
| time on today's technology. Or maybe that would ruin the magic.
| RangerScience wrote:
| My understanding is that it would, to some level - I remember
| reading about how they put effort into every pixel, which
| child-me took to mean that after the rendering, they went in
| and modified it to exactly match what they wanted. That can
| only work with a fixed perspective, which I think was proven
| out in the later full 3D Myst games.
|
| PS - Ever read the books? :)
| VohuMana wrote:
| I remember the books existed as a kid but never ended up
| reading them. Are they worth the read? I'm in between books
| at the moment
| paul_funyun wrote:
| I only read the Book of Atrus and it's worth a read. Can't
| vouch for any others tho
| ajmurmann wrote:
| I loved reading then when I was a teenager. I remember
| enjoying how the books were used as portals to be worlds.
| The world building in general was great and I remember the
| story as quite clever. However, this just have been 25
| years ago at least. So it might have been terrible lol
| Nevermark wrote:
| Been a while, but I loved them
|
| The author is David Wingrove, whose incredible world
| building is on display in his Chung Kuo series. Also highly
| recommended: a future where China has dominated all the
| continents. Originally 8 books, now 20 due to books splits
| and additional writing.
|
| Only complaint is he could have used an editor. Sometimes
| his writing could have used some corrections or better
| wording.
|
| But the stories are great.
| lll-o-lll wrote:
| There were three books in total, and I loved the first two.
| Particularly if you can get hold of the hard-covers, as
| they are beautiful.
|
| As for the stories themselves, the world building and
| atmosphere are fantastic. As a teenager/young adult, they
| captivated me in a way that very few books could. I
| continued to read them about once a year up into my early
| thirties. And I never played the game!
|
| Worth a read in my opinion.
| saratogacx wrote:
| The paperback also had a texture to them as well. It was
| hard to find them a decade ago and I don't regret the
| hunt. I'd agree that the first two books are great, the
| third is nice in rounding out the world but the story
| doesn't captivate as much.
| beretguy wrote:
| > And I never played the game!
|
| I keep seeing comments like this on this thread: people
| who like the game or what it produced (it whatever)
| without even playing. It's like me liking all things
| Alice in Wonderland without ever reading the books. Even
| though I have them in hot pink hardcover.
| Dove wrote:
| I thought the books matched the atmosphere and quality of
| the games very well. They didn't read to me at all like
| merchandising, but rather as an expression of the same
| artistic vision in another medium. I remember reading one
| as a teenager, and was deeply taken with the message that
| as an artist and an engineer (and those are deeply
| related), a commitment to beauty and proper function,
| indeed the integrity of honoring what you are and what your
| creations properly ought to be, demands doing things right,
| which in turn demands deep study and doing the homework. It
| is a philosophy that was formative for me, and which still
| heavily influences me today. I hadn't thought about that in
| years...!
| amatecha wrote:
| I've got all three books but only got the hardcover of the
| Book of Atrus (and a recent anniversary edition reprint of
| it, just for fun). Wish I got hardcovers of Ti'ana and D'ni!
| cammikebrown wrote:
| There's a remake coming. Looks gorgeous.
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1712350/Riven/
| MenhirMike wrote:
| And if the 2020 remake* is anything to go by, this should be
| amazing. If you want to play Myst, get the 2020 version.
|
| *not to be confused with the 2000 Masterpiece Edition, the
| 2000 remake RealMyst or the 2014 remake realMyst: Masterpiece
| Edition.
| beretguy wrote:
| Or 2018 Super realMyst: Masterpiece Deluxe Premium++
| Edition.
| callahad wrote:
| Spurred on, in no small part, by a community remake effort
| that lasted nearly 15 years: https://starryexpanse.com/
| parpfish wrote:
| I believe that the versus for sale on steam now allows for a
| modern 3d first person mode and a VR mode
| teraflop wrote:
| I think you're confusing Riven with the original Myst. There
| have been full 3D versions of Myst since way back in 2000,
| but a real-time 3D remake of Riven has been a long-awaited
| pipe dream.
|
| There was a long-running fan project called "Starry Expanse",
| aiming to recreate Riven in 3D. They got acquired(?) by Cyan
| a couple years back and their work got incorporated into the
| official Riven remake, which is supposed to come out sometime
| later this year.
| prerok wrote:
| They didn't get acquired but did hire one member of the
| team as per this post:
|
| https://cyan.com/2022/10/31/olttfor/
| teraflop wrote:
| Sorry, yeah, they didn't "acquire" the whole team in a
| business or employment sense, but my understanding is
| they got access to all the code and art assets they had
| created over the years.
| parpfish wrote:
| you're right, I got confused between the two.
|
| Side note: I played obduction a while back and it looked
| great, but the PlayStation fans were going nonstop
| legitster wrote:
| My dad adored the Myst games. We would plug a computer into a big
| screen (eventually projector) and try to solve the games as a
| family over a Christmas break
|
| Not enough can be said about the quality of the writing and
| worldbuilding in the universe. It's as pity that the format died
| around the game.
| ido wrote:
| Cyan are still around and still making games[0]!
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyan_Worlds#Games_developed
| tdeck wrote:
| I remember doing this with my dad as well. I was maybe 9 or 10
| years old and we were both equally clueless about what to do
| most of the time :).
| keyle wrote:
| Cyan hasn't stopped. Although without the same critical
| acclaim.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| > Although without the same critical acclaim.
|
| I feel they're still putting out stuff that's just as good,
| it's just the market has moved on.
| sirshmooey wrote:
| There are some terrific point & click games on iOS (preferably
| iPadOS). The Room series, The House of Da Vinci series (superb
| Room knockoff), and The Eyes of Ara (personal fav) just to name
| a few.
| m_mueller wrote:
| Machinarium.
| beretguy wrote:
| > It's as pity that the format died around the game.
|
| It never died. It just got buried under the rubble of "AAA"
| games.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Highly recommend Obduction, also from Cyan. As a guy who had
| Myst when it dropped for PC (and spent 32 hours straight with
| two friends, chugging Coke, to solve it) I feel like it's a
| worthy addition to the genre.
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| Both Myst and Riven kicked started my interest in graphics and
| programming that eventually led to my career in tech.
|
| I still remember swapping out those CDs every time I switched
| islands. The entire experience was utterly captivating as an
| 13yearold.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| > I still remember swapping out those CDs...
|
| You reminded me that when the CD drive kicked out the disc for
| the first time and asked for the next, you knew that you had
| broken through and that some new shit was about to land.
| Brendinooo wrote:
| 5 CDs, of course. How perfect for the lore.
|
| This game kickstarted my interest in computer graphics. Got a
| "making of" book and was fascinated by how they did the
| textures.
| chiph wrote:
| Riven is why I got a CD drive (Plextor) that used caddys rather
| than a tray. I knew that I was going to be swapping discs
| fairly often and the caddy gave them more protection. Every
| time I went to a new island, it was a furious sorting of caddys
| to find the right one, then slam it into the drive to avoid
| wasting time out of the game.
| why_at wrote:
| Favorite piece of Riven trivia: If you've played the game you
| might remember the one spot where there's a giant sword sticking
| out of the ground. Since this place also appears in one of the
| game's FMV cutscenes they had to use a real giant sword prop for
| filming. The person that made the giant sword prop was Adam
| Savage from Mythbusters.
|
| https://youtu.be/gcDCZ2TmTck?si=8J8A4ja1vRGDC9c6&t=150
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Cyan, by the time they got Adam's dagger prop, figured out they
| could do the whole thing in CG and so did not use the prop.
| They still thought it was cool as hell and hung it up on the
| wall. It was only after MythBusters started airing that they
| found out it was Adam's work, because he mentioned it in an
| interview. As shown, it now has a place of honor today in
| Cyan's lobby.
| stavros wrote:
| In the video, Savage says the falling of the sword was not
| CG.
| tobr wrote:
| He's wrong! He made the prop but he was not there when they
| filmed the scene. It was never used in the game.
| kevml wrote:
| Mythbusted?
| xyse53 wrote:
| Fun read. I loved these games as a pre-teen/teen.
|
| Since I'm a cynic in general:
|
| > Cyan was likewise disinterested in pursuing other solutions
| that would have been even easier to implement than panning
| rotation, but that could have made their game less awkward to
| play...
|
| I disagree with this paragraph.
|
| I think back then, I thought this was intentionally helpful.
| Thinking on it now, I also think it was part of the character of
| Myst that would be too risky to lose for Riven.
| Brendinooo wrote:
| Yeah, I agree: I think there are a bunch of little details that
| would have been VERY hard to find in a truly open world
| navigation setup. I do remember being bailed out by clicking
| around to find paths at least once.
| tempodox wrote:
| > As of this writing, Cyan is preparing a remake of Riven.
|
| As someone who regularly despaired over the original, I'm very
| interested and curious.
| chaostheory wrote:
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1712350/Riven/
|
| It has VR support
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Looking forward to it.
|
| I know that there was the Starry Expanse project, but I think
| it was too piecemeal, and disjointed. I think Cyan had to do
| it.
| rkachowski wrote:
| > Your reaction to Riven when approached in "gamer" mode will
| depend on whether you think this kind of intensive intellectual
| challenge is fun or not, as well as whether you have the excess
| intellectual and temporal bandwidth in your current life to go
| all-in on such a major undertaking.
|
| There's a period of time between the nineties and mid 2000s when
| ubiquitous and fast internet access wasn't easily accessible, and
| so games like Myst and Riven had the space and time to be
| digested and savoured. Now it seems this just isn't feasible
| anymore. There are of course games in the same category, e.g.
| Outer Wilds and The Witness, but these have much more concessions
| to the internet age
| Hugsun wrote:
| I never played myst or riven. I loved The Witness and the Talos
| Principle. What concessions were made to the internet age?
| bowsamic wrote:
| I haven't played the latter, but The Witness avoids, as one
| example, a common problem in games like Riven or many other
| old adventure games. That is, The Witness understands that
| huge challenge is completely fine, so long as it's isolated
| to a specific virtual space, such as a given panel and room.
| Instead many old games give a strong sense that a solution
| may be found anywhere in the game so far, or anywhere on any
| random bitmapped area from a set of 10+ screens. I think the
| "concession" The Witness makes is to focus itself in order to
| ask the player to focus. I don't think it's possible to ask
| the player, like Riven does, to be comfortable living in the
| world for extended periods. Riven does so by unfocussing and
| spreading itself out over everything: anything might be
| interactable, anything might be a clue and important.
|
| Today, people want progress, and if they are stuck, they want
| to know exactly where. The sense of anxiety created by
| totally open confusion is not acceptable. For me, personally,
| that's the moment I open a walkthrough: for example, the
| moment I feel like I missed something important and I have no
| idea where.
| voganmother42 wrote:
| Totally open confusion is how I would describe Outer Wilds,
| long periods where I was lost and making no progress, and
| it was absolutely one of the most amazing games I've ever
| played.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Well first I think that Outer Wilds still does a great
| job at nudging the player in a direction and making them
| feel like they are doing important stuff, though
| sometimes this fails. Ironically I saw how much Jon Blow
| got lost and hated Outer Wilds. I think an aspect of
| making the player feel like they're doing something
| important and not just wasting their time is that for
| Outer Wilds the game world itself is so interesting and
| unique that it feels fine to be lost in it.
|
| Riven is a series of paintings, Outer Wilds is a
| beautiful and serene real time fully simulated solar
| system. I think that is a concession the poster was
| referring to: Outer Wilds has to have a wow factor in
| order to make it okay to be lost and confused. If Outer
| Wilds was a series of static images, people would not
| persevere.
| tialaramex wrote:
| One huge benefit Outer Wilds has is that its fans are
| like "No! Don't watch this spoiler - Play the game" which
| is definitely the correct advice. If you're not sure,
| play the game.
|
| I actually only played a few hours of Outer Wilds and
| decided to watch others (and particularly Thor) finish it
| instead because I'm bad at flying the ship and I found it
| too frustrating to die unsure whether I was bad at it or
| what I was attempting is impossible.
|
| But I know I'm weird, I think the Penn & Teller things
| where they explain the trick are the best, clearly Penn
| himself doesn't agree because you won't see too much of
| that in their newer work. My favourite bit of Portal 2
| was playing with commentary on just before "The Part
| Where He Kills You" where there's a frantic portal fling
| and in testing they realised it's _not fun_ if the player
| accidentally flings the wrong portal. Like, sure, if you
| actually did that you die, but so what? So - if you hit
| the wrong button you get the correct portal anyway, as a
| special exception to the game 's rules. So yeah, I'm
| weird, I like to understand how it works.
|
| Outer Wilds (less so the DLC) has a lot of opportunity
| for you to completely misunderstand and I think it's
| actually overall _nice_ that the game doesn 't finish by
| insisting on correcting you. You can keep believing
| whatever it is, and maybe you eventually realise you were
| wrong or maybe not. Life's like that.
|
| _SPOILERS - Stop reading if you haven 't played Outer
| Wilds and think you might_
|
| It's very possible to "win" Outer Wilds not understanding
| why the visitors died. Maybe you never visit the
| asteroid, maybe you don't understand what's happening
| there and never go inside, maybe you see what happened
| but never understand it. This is especially likely if you
| haven't noticed that they're clearly right in the middle
| of everything, they actually have just discovered the Sun
| Station doesn't work at the time!
|
| If you understood why they died, it's _even more_
| possible to not see why Hearthians were spared. Video
| game protagonists are used to miracles that save them,
| but your whole species is here and yet other species were
| annihilated in seconds. Was it so long ago? Well, yes and
| no. It was a long time ago, but your ancestors were
| amphibians and like radiation the death is abated by
| water 's density so that's why you're here.
|
| It's also really possible to not "get" how the "Quantum"
| rules work. To "win" you don't need to actually go meet
| the last "living" alien although ideally you will, and so
| you don't need to grok the rules well enough to go there.
| So you can get to the "end" of the game without ever
| really knowing why the weird rocks move or that there's a
| coherent explanation for how and why they do that.
|
| Ooh, edited to add the biggest I forgot - it's easy to
| not realise this game takes place at the End Of The
| Universe. The stars are dying! Unrealistically quickly,
| but that's what's happening. You aren't seeing more
| supernovas just as a hint (although it is a hint) or
| because of where this happens, but because _everywhere_
| the stars are dying.
| simondotau wrote:
| To be fair to The Witness, I think it does spread itself
| out across its traversable space in a similar way. In both
| games, there's often a locked device or closed door or
| puzzle which you try to solve, but cannot. You explore
| other places on the island to discover the mechanism which
| allows you go back to that puzzle and complete it.
|
| Riven manifests these discoveries as changes to world state
| stored in computer memory, whereas The Witness manifests
| them as an acquired skill residing in the player's brain.
| hhshhhhjjjd wrote:
| > The Witness understands that huge challenge is completely
| fine, so long as it's isolated to a specific virtual space,
| such as a given panel and room
|
| What about all of the puzzles that use the environment?
| There are all sorts of challenges that use the
| island/features. Really enjoyed that game. Good sense of
| progression and learning without teaching.
| bowsamic wrote:
| As I said in another comment, those are not necessary and
| really for people who feel compelled by them. I
| personally ignored them. You can't ignore them in Riven
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I don't know if that's a concession so much as an evolved
| understanding of what is fun in an adventure game.
|
| Pixel hunting and moon logic puzzles where you're more or
| less expected to brute force the puzzle and groan at the
| answer (e.g. the infamous monkey wrench); that shit was
| never fun. It ended up in games because the genre was still
| immature and game designers didn't know better.
|
| Modern adventure games are much better at ensuring that the
| key is never far from the lock... for the simple reason
| that softlocking because you didn't pick up a single pixel
| that was an important rock 4 hours ago isn't fun, and
| neither is backtracking across the entire game to talk to
| the pigeon you missed because it only briefly flies past in
| the background once every 4 minutes.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Talos Principle! What a gem - loved the setting and story.
| Still think of it from time to time. Amazing - play it if you
| have not already.
| moomin wrote:
| A really obviously one in The Talos Principle: nearly all the
| puzzles have names. That makes them readily googleable.
| VladimirGolovin wrote:
| To me, both Outer Wilds and The Witness were absolutlely
| savourable, and I made a point of never looking up anything on
| the Internet while playing these games. That would rob me of
| the feelings these games were designed to impart.
| tantalor wrote:
| You might like Animal Well
| Minor49er wrote:
| Seconding this. It's a very satisfying puzzle-based
| Metroidvania. You might not like ostriches when you're done
| with it though
| gaudystead wrote:
| The hidden puzzles go DEEP on Animal Well.
| graynk wrote:
| and Tunic!
| bowsamic wrote:
| I totally agree. The thing about Myst and Riven is that they
| really are full of the kinds of things that players will
| naturally try to circumvent by looking up solutions: non-
| obvious interactable objects, branching paths, easy to
| accidentally backtrack. Basically, full of ways to feel like
| you are wasting your time. The concessions that Outer Wilds and
| The Witness make are naturally related to this. Particularly
| with the latter, Jon Blow stated how much they changed the game
| to make it clear that the panels were the only thing that
| needed to be interacted with, and the game makes it very clear
| from the beginning that each panel can be approached
| independently. It's only with the game's environmental puzzles
| that this starts to devolve, but they are not necessary by any
| means. Outer Wilds also does a great job of making you feel
| like you are getting something significant from each time loop.
|
| But I must agree with you, the ship has sailed with this kind
| of game. You can of course go back and enjoy it but you do so
| with the knowledge that you can be doing other things that feel
| as meaningful but without the feeling of frustration.
|
| Another similar example are MMOs. When I was a kid, my dad and
| I were really into Star Wars Galaxies. Well, people made
| emulation projects to go back and play it, but it's just not
| the same for various reasons. I feel the same way with World of
| Warcraft. It is almost more stark than Riven, because you not
| only miss the word of mouth and lack of easy "cheating"
| aspects, but you also feel the distinct lack of open
| socialising in modern online gameplay.
|
| A good example of the opposite would be old Nintendo games.
| Super Mario Bros 3 is still one of the best 2D Mario games of
| all time, and in no sense when playing it do you feel compelled
| towards a modern experience.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I had a similar experience when I bought an iOS remake of
| legend of Zelda three... Within an hour I found myself
| circling the border of the accessible area of the game
| looking for the door or NPC interaction I was missing.
| Absolutely Not fun. I chalked it up to gameplay of a bygone
| era and gave the rest a miss.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Excellent comparison. I would consider those both Riven-Tier
| games in terms of awe and wonder. There are a few factors
| affecting emotional appeal, including phase in life, age, how
| much you're used to games, and your main point but...
|
| I will say I had nearly as much of a good time with those two
| games as with Riven. For all three, I had this sinking feeling
| while playing "I will rarely find works as lovely as these in
| my life".
| Brendinooo wrote:
| Has anyone here played Quern? That was the first time I felt
| I was playing something Riven-like...well, since playing
| Riven.
| pferde wrote:
| I've never played Riven nor Myst, because I just can't find
| a version or remake that wouldn't suck technically, but I
| just loved Quern, and one or two similar games I found
| since.
|
| One that stood out to me is "Odyssey - The Story of
| Science", which is a Myst-like with focus on teaching
| basics of math and physics through its puzzles.
| Matumio wrote:
| I've played Quern for several hours but couldn't bring
| myself to care as much about the puzzles or, more
| importantly, walking around the world.
|
| It was not too bad, but my memory of Riven is so much
| stronger. Maybe I should replay it instead, just to walk
| through this beautiful world again, even without solving
| all the puzzles (the puzzles are IMO not why you play
| it). Riven evoked this constant feeling of wonder with
| the sounds and short cut-scenes adding a lot to the
| atmosphere.
|
| There was this place where you walk down towards the
| water with a beast sitting there in the sun, and that
| scene almost has a smell to it. Or maybe my memory is
| colouring it all rosy now.
| weaksauce wrote:
| > because I just can't find a version or remake that
| wouldn't suck technically
|
| the recent myst remake is probably the pinnacle of
| them... that said the original is well worth playing
| still and i've played it through a few times now.
| quitit wrote:
| I recall the graphics of titles such as Myst and Donkey Kong
| Country were in itself newsworthy.
|
| There was definitely something appealing in these lower-
| resolution rendered graphics for the way they hid the
| imperfections of computer graphics and conveyed more detail
| than was actually present. In a way our minds filled the
| gaps.
|
| A good example of this are the trees in Myst in this image
| (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/E9ZtXtFXE84/maxresdefault.jpg).
| They're just textured cones with a central cylinder, but as
| composed they look far more richly detailed.
| causality0 wrote:
| The limitations created style. It's why most modern games
| seem to all look the same,because they have few limits.
| dartos wrote:
| Have you heard of stardew valley? It's a very slow burn game
| and is extremely popular.
|
| I'd say that dragons dogma is in the same vein as Riven and
| does fairly well.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| There's definitely games in this category and I do still think
| they work even in a digital age. It's a relatively niche
| microgenre though, and I think in a sense that is why it works.
|
| Immortality and The Signifier are both solid games where most
| of the enjoyment is interpreting the world.
|
| They aren't hypercard-esque puzzle games like Myst and Riven,
| but what they share in common is that the enjoyment of the game
| is figuring out the somewhat ambiguous world major beats occur
| in the negative space of what you are explicitly shown and
| told.
|
| The former has sort of Lynchian undertones that slowly emerge
| over the course of the game, and the latter benefits from at
| least a cursory understanding of Freud and/or semiotics.
| spaceribs wrote:
| Any Daniel Mullins game, Noita and Animal Well are excellent
| high depth and intellectually stimulating puzzle games. I
| highly suggest them all if you're looking for a puzzle box to
| rip apart.
| andrepd wrote:
| There's another thing about hyper-prevalent internet: there are
| wikis and guides documenting every detail, every nook and
| cranny, detailing every optimally min-maxed strategy.
| Exploration is dead.
| treflop wrote:
| Exploration was dead back then too. You could just pick up a
| book about the game that told you everything.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I played Outer Wilds one week at my cottage when we had no
| internet and it did nothing but rain. It was an incredible
| experience.
|
| Not having Internet really makes my experience better with
| games. I wish I had the discipline to just not reach for a
| Wiki.
| nimbius wrote:
| Riven, and its predecessor, Myst, are nearly unremarkable
| garbage developed by neckbeards to torture the sane. because HN
| is run by and for hipsters and techbros, we cherish these
| games. I do not know why.
|
| The CD had some truly banger soundscape tracks, but after 4
| days trying to solve any of these puzzles, the atmospherics
| became water torture interrupted with the occasional groan of
| your CD-ROM as it churned out yet more technically magnificent
| but at this point truly aggravating artscapes for you to pound
| your frustration into. People on the BBS (pre-internet where
| you went to ask people the answers to stuff) would craft whole
| threads of absolute disgust for Myst and the fact that it
| abandoned meaningful gameplay and level design for what
| amounted to an art students senior multimedia project.
|
| every part of the level was a new pattern of switches and
| buttons and wheels to decypher and it had all the intuitiveness
| of a rotted-out missile command bunker in some cases. It was
| like encountering a gearshift from a piece of heavy equipment
| that had all the legends stripped off. the booklet didnt help.
| this thing was a glorified screen saver for Ph.D's.
|
| if you gave up on these titles as pointless arcane bullshit you
| definitely werent alone. go load up commander keene or duke
| nukem or blake stone and blast away for a few hours and
| actually have fun for a fraction of what myst cost when it hit
| store shelves because Riven and Myst will make you abandon
| gaming entirely.
|
| i never managed to solve the myst/riven puzzles or the stories
| and i personally hope the west coast trash from their vegan
| granola and rainsong studio step on the sharpest legos.
| egypturnash wrote:
| And yet they sold a bazillion copies. Presumably there was
| _something_ in these games that appealed to people who were
| not for you.
|
| I know it can be hard to understand, but there's a lot of
| people in the world, and they like a lot of different kinds
| of things!
| toddmorey wrote:
| It was one of the first PC titles ever to enjoy that sort of
| traction with non-gamers. I know a couple of people who
| actually bought a home PC just to play it on.
|
| Whatever your opinions of the game, it definitely played an
| important role in opening up gaming to a wider audience. Myst
| is an important artifact in the history of gaming.
|
| Now... were I not more restrained, I'd hope here that you
| step on the sourest of your grapes.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Counterpoint : I don't have a neckbeard and Myst and Riven
| are the best games I've ever played. Period.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Counterpoint: I don't have a neckbeard and Myst and Riven are
| the best single player games I've ever played. Period.
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| My hometown is also home to Cyan, who made Myst/Riven. I've been
| to their offices a few times, just to nerd out with some of the
| devs and play random open source FPS games (the name escapes me).
| Their offices are really cool, they've got a lot of physical
| stuff from the games in various display cases around the
| entrance.
|
| It's... weird to visit, though, because they're like the high
| school quarterbacks we all know. They had some great years when
| they were younger, but they're continuously trying to relive
| those glory days while yelling from the bar stool about that one
| time they threw the game winning pass. Most of their cash comes
| from remakes or ports of Myst/Riven, and half the time they
| aren't even the ones making the damn ports (third parties have
| paid them for the rights to do it, if you buy Myst on GoG then
| you got a version that was ported by GoG themselves).
|
| They recently put out Obduction, which on paper seems to be a
| commercial failure (though I haven't sold seven figures worth of
| games so who am I to say), raking in like $5M total. Saving the
| fact that there are just a handful of dudes left at the studio...
| I don't know, it feels like the oft referenced online version of
| Cyan (which again, is 30 years old now) and their current reality
| are completely divergent.
|
| I have some nostalgia for getting trapped in a book in Myst and
| feeling that fury, but I also struggle to see how they're
| relevant in today's gaming landscape. It feels like if Super
| Mario Bros was a one hit wonder, would we still be getting this
| pumped about crushing turtles three decades later?
| ido wrote:
| The sad truth is that capturing lightning in a bottle is
| exceedingly rare, let alone twice or more. Cyan made at least 2
| massive hits, which is 2 more than almost all game studios
| manage. Even their contemporaries Id Software didn't make that
| many more hits (Quake 3 was their last outright hit, releasing
| only 2 years after Riven).
|
| There are almost no Bethesdas/Blizzards/etc that continue
| releasing hits for decades at a time.
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| Fair point, and I sort of understand the nostalgia that's
| involved. A large part of my disappointment probably comes
| from the fact that the endless remakes never quite live up to
| the hype.
|
| I was a big Diablo 2 fiend, it was one of my formative online
| games. So a few years ago there are rumblings about D2
| Remastered, and I'm obviously pumped. Come launch day,
| Blizzard has my money and I'm deep into the thing I used to
| love, but it's just... meh. There was a time and place that
| made the original D2 fantastic, but it turns out that's not
| here and now. I feel the same thing for Myst/Riven, they were
| SO GOOD but who actually gives a shit about doing the same
| thing again with better graphics?
|
| I can't write off the fact that those dudes made a few great
| games, and that's a crazy accomplishment. I think Myst is the
| first "real" PC game my family ever bought, and I still
| remember my mom staying up late at night to click around the
| world and figure out what the hell was happening. She wrote
| notes on those yellow legal pads, reminding her of lore and
| other important shit. But the lightning in a bottle thing
| works both ways, and that lightning is basically static
| electricity in todays world :P To borrow your example, id
| software didn't release the same version of DOOM 30 years
| later, we got DOOM Eternal. It's not a reskin of their (by
| today's standards) shitty game, it's a whole new experience
| that's a damned (hah) blast to play. That's not what's
| happening with Myst/Riven, unfortunately, but I'd love to see
| that level of innovation come out of the studio that was once
| great.
| ido wrote:
| They did make new games tho, most recently Obduction and
| Firmament (the latter released in 2023). I think their
| style of games just fell off the zeitgeist.
|
| Anyway I do empathise - my favorite games are fallout and
| fallout 2 and I was looking forward to Bethesda's sequels
| but I never manage to stick to any of them for more than a
| couple hours, it just doesn't feel like fallout to me - and
| I think a big part of it is because I'm not longer 14 years
| old playing a new game (with very little other commitments
| on my time and attention).
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| I know they made newer games, I played Obduction in
| person in their offices before it was released :)
|
| But you're on the same page as me, there was a time and
| place for these FANTASTIC games, but that's in the past.
| And it feels kind of silly to watch them push the same
| games onto new platforms in a futile attempt to stay
| relevant (and cash the nostalgia checks, even when
| players end up NOT feeling the same things as the OG
| release).
|
| Part of why I didn't like D2 again is exactly what you
| said, I'm not a teenager with endless time to spend
| online gaming. But another huge part is that I've been
| there and done that, and a nicer, newer version of that
| fun just doesn't hold a candle to the fun I had years ago
| when it was fresh. I'm saying the same holds true for
| Myst/Riven, release it on my smart fridge for all I care,
| it's not the same :D
| ido wrote:
| Yeah I agree we actually agree! Another complicating
| factor is that there's a significant subjective component
| to it - I have an acquaintance that works at Cyan (after
| growing up with Myst and Riven) and is extremely happy
| working on their newer games.
|
| Ultimately they're getting money from players (not
| investors), so the test of "is there a reason to remake
| the old games" is ultimately if people are buying them
| (and I wonder how many of them haven't played the
| originals? Considering they came out almost 30 years
| ago).
| pavlov wrote:
| I had the same experience with the Fallouts. These were
| the last PC games I played obsessively. (In my late teens
| I decided I wanted to be an artist, while gaming was
| moving in the opposite direction with always more guns
| and 3D and less story and less art. So for a long time I
| never played another game after Fallout 2.)
|
| In 2016 I was very impressed by the advances in VR, and
| so I spent thousands on a gaming PC and HTC Vive and the
| VR edition of Fallout 4. But one hour into the game it
| was clear that the magic just wasn't there. I had this
| expensive setup to put me directly inside the world I
| enjoyed as a teen, but it was totally "uncanny valley."
| The overwrought game design had lost the mystery, and the
| 3D VR rendering just made everything look cheap and fake.
| Engaging the player's imagination is a delicate balance.
| Sharlin wrote:
| It's not just you. Bethesda's Fallouts are like cargo
| cult versions of the classics. Oblivion set in a
| retrofuturistic postapocalyptic world just isn't the same
| thing.
| pavlov wrote:
| To me, it sounds similar to a once popular band who still make
| records together.
|
| Maybe their style is progressive rock and they had one hit that
| still plays enough to keep the royalties flowing [1]. Decades
| later, audiences have mostly forgotten about prog rock, but
| does that mean the band should abandon what they know and
| enjoy, just to maybe try making a Rihanna-inspired album
| instead? Nobody wants that either.
|
| It sounds like a chill lifestyle to be honest, doing what you
| love on your own pace, sometimes delivering something new to a
| dwindling but dedicated audience. Degrowth is anathema to
| start-up culture but it might be good for the aging human mind.
|
| - -
|
| [1] A lot of people who have never actively listened to prog
| rock could hum "Eye in the Sky..."
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| You're completely right, and if the shoe was on the other
| foot I'd probably do the same. I'd be happy to be a one hit
| wonder if it paid the bills and let me keep on rocking in the
| free world.
|
| But at the same time, Norman Greenbaum doesn't release a new
| version of Spirit in the Sky every few years expecting to get
| a pat on the head. In fact, that'd be an insane choice to
| make. Cyan is making their new albums, but they're also
| releasing Myst[club-remix].mp3 and Riven[feat-shiny-bs].mp3
| on a regular schedule, and part of you has to wonder when
| it's ok to embrace the one hit and maybe quit beating the
| dead horse (apparently there's money in the horse, instead of
| organs and horse meat, so they CAN beat it but why?)
| pavlov wrote:
| Old artists certainly do that kind of thing.
|
| Let's take somebody I actually really respect, the Pet Shop
| Boys. (They're practically a one-hit wonder in America but
| had numerous hit records in Europe.)
|
| Within the past month, PSB has released a new album
| "Nonetheless" to favorable reviews, but they also released
| an EP called "Furthermore" with completely new recordings
| of some of their best-known hits. Recently they also
| collaborated with British post-punk group Sleaford Mods on
| a cover and remix of "West End Girls."
|
| There's an audience who enjoys all this. Why shouldn't they
| both put out new material and work with others to
| rejuvenate the old? For someone who never liked their brand
| of melancholy synthpop, it's beating a dead horse. For the
| fans, it's keeping alive something that deserves it.
| defrost wrote:
| > Old artists certainly do that kind of thing.
|
| But _should_ they??
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3MTlJF2qqM
|
| ( _FWiW I 'm all for grandparents making kids
| uncomfortable_ )
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| I mean, do whatever the hell you want. I'll call you out
| as a hack for doing it, but if someone out there enjoys
| it then more power to them.
|
| Personally I think that if Nintendo eschewed new games,
| and kept releasing the original Super Mario Brothers (a
| beloved game from almost four decades ago) bit-for-bit on
| other devices, maybe with better graphics, they'd be
| irrelevant idiots today. Sure, there's SOME market for
| that, but what's much cooler is making new stuff that
| holds up in the current year. Nostalgia is a powerful
| tool, but porting code from 30 years ago to my smart
| fridge with upgraded graphics is a poor use of it (this
| is barely hyperbole for the franchise, which says a lot).
|
| That all being said, I know the Cyan offices haven't
| collapsed into rubble so they're still doing OK (though
| their workforce is TINY now, compared to 'back when').
| And if that's what floats their boat, great. I'd rather
| suck start my shotgun than release the same software for
| 30 years (same as in verbatim, no less, someone else is
| porting it to modern stacks) but to each their own...
| pavlov wrote:
| But Cyan does release new games with no connection to the
| Myst IP. And Nintendo has re-released the original Super
| Mario Bros on different platforms over the years.
| anthk wrote:
| Super Mario All Stars it's a remake of the classic Mario
| Bros games for the NES but with SNES' Super Mario World
| graphics, they stil hold up really well today.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| > kept releasing the original Super Mario Brothers (a
| beloved game from almost four decades ago) bit-for-bit on
| other devices, maybe with better graphics, they'd be
| irrelevant idiots today
|
| But they do that all the time. New Super Mario Bros had
| like 5 different releases across multiple platforms with
| little to no changes. Hell, the entire SMB lineup is
| basically the same game with a new gimmick and fresh
| graphics tacked on every release.
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| Interesting how the ,,up to date", or should I say
| ,,generic" production of Furthermore robs them of their
| charm. They had an instantly recognizable sound.
| pavlov wrote:
| I agree! These versions are trivial curiosities compared
| to the originals.
| skrebbel wrote:
| > part of you has to wonder when it's ok to embrace the one
| hit and maybe quit beating the dead horse
|
| Lots and lots of musicians play all their 20yo hit records
| every concert. It's expected, not "beating the dead horse".
| I don't see how this is all that different.
| amatecha wrote:
| open source FPS, maybe sauerbraten or openarena? or perhaps
| nexuiz... those three are the ones I've encountered the most -
| all fun!
| SheepSlapper wrote:
| I looked it up: Xonotic was the answer!
|
| It was actually quite fun, even though I had to compile from
| source to play on an outdated office server :)
|
| https://xonotic.org/
| Minor49er wrote:
| On the contrary, Obduction is probably their best game. The
| puzzles are well thought-out, hints are signalled in clever
| ways, the environments are detailed and gorgeous, and the
| storyline is pretty interesting
|
| They recently released Firmament which was successfully backed
| on Kickstarter. (I'm eyeing my boxed copy on my shelf right
| now.) I'm partway into it, so I can't yet say if it's better
| than Obduction, but it has been an excellent experience so far
|
| I don't think it's fair to slam Cyan for being so proud of Myst
| and talking about it all the time. It was one of the most
| influential and successful video games. It got kids into
| technology, puzzles, and sci-fi. Myst is not merely remembered.
| It is still an ongoing franchise with an active fanbase. Why do
| they need "hits" when they are still a successful company?
| chaostheory wrote:
| > My wife and I are inveterate hikers these days, planning most
| of our holidays around where we can get out and walk. Riven made
| me want to climb through the screen and roam its landscapes for
| myself.
|
| I believe Myst, Riven, and Obduction all have VR versions now.
| Myst works standalone on Quest.
| duskwuff wrote:
| Riven doesn't have a VR version quite yet, but it's set for
| release later this year.
|
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1712350/Riven/
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Riven will also be on Quest
| idk1 wrote:
| My intelligence level at the age of 14 was that I could finish
| Myst and loved it, but not Riven and had to buy a guide to help
| me with it. I think it might be the only game I bought a guide
| for. Never got over that.
|
| Actually, I did phone the super mario 64 help hotline as I was
| missing level 10. 60p a minute!
| s3krit wrote:
| > Actually, I did phone the super mario 64 help hotline as I
| was missing level 10
|
| Aha, snowman's land! Jump through the wall that has the snowman
| portrait reflected in the mirror. Blew my mind as a 10 year old
| dudul wrote:
| Same. Riven was such a massive step up in difficulty from Myst.
|
| Of all the 4 games (yes 4, I refuse to acknowledge the last
| entry) it is definitely the most difficult. I had to wait for
| it to come out on GoG and replay it as an adult to finish it.
| kingkawn wrote:
| To my young self Myst felt utterly brilliant, and when it finally
| arrived Riven self-indulgent, a cautionary tale that even the
| artist does not always grasp what made their work good.
| parpfish wrote:
| I remember Myst being eerie and kind of scary due to the vague
| story and sense of isolation. It had a nightmare-like quality
| to it.
|
| Riven added a lot more world building and that lore took away
| the mystery and isolation that gave the original its ambiance.
| kingkawn wrote:
| It felt like they didn't get that it was the unbridled
| creativity combined with no resources that forced them to
| make the experience itself good, rather than infinite
| resources indulging their misconceptions about where the
| value was
| jimjimjim wrote:
| Rivan was an insta-buy for me and at that point I hadn't even
| played Myst. The scenes, the music, the environment, the feeling
| of exploration were amazing. and there were no walkthrough videos
| to help back then.
| red_admiral wrote:
| That was an amazing game (along with the rest of the series,
| there's 5 canonical games in total).
|
| When they did try something more "normal" - the multiplayer
| online URU, a kind of Myst meets second life meets early social
| network, it wasn't a commercial success.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Fun fact, Uru aka Myst Online is still alive. They have added
| new ages to it, even quite recently.
|
| https://mystonline.com/en/
| SirMaster wrote:
| I played Myst as a kid and loved it.
|
| I never got around to playing Riven, but I plan to as an adult
| and have been waiting for a proper remake with updated graphics
| and such and it seems we are finally close to that reality.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Riven, and all the Myst games beyond the original have aged
| well. It is playable now. (And the original gets a remake every
| few years!)
| gnutrino wrote:
| The iOS version for ipad is a great way to play it.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Also on Android if you're not an Apple
| briandear wrote:
| Maybe I'm the only one but I thought Myst was pretty but boring.
| acheron wrote:
| That was a very widely-held opinion at the time.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| "Myst" coming out on a CD at the time struck me as a very risky
| move as so few people had optical drives on their PCs. What I
| failed to appreciate (and why I must suck at marketing) is that
| everyone _with_ a CD-ROM drive bought the game. You almost had to
| either to justify the device or perhaps to lord it over those who
| did not have one.
| philistine wrote:
| For my friends, they lorded their CD-ROM drive with the
| purchase of Phantasmagoria. No time for those wimpy Myst games.
| My friends needed hardcore dramatic depictions of sexual
| violence.
| TillE wrote:
| Myst's 1994 Windows release is pretty far into the CD-ROM era.
| I was playing Monkey Island with its great CD soundtrack in 92,
| and the talkie versions of Fate of Atlantis and King's Quest 6
| in 93, for example.
| trimethylpurine wrote:
| You might consider formatting your site for better readability on
| smaller screens or for use with accessibility options.
| golyi wrote:
| What a game, the main puzzle which tied all the islands you've
| visited throughout the story is one of the best in terms of game
| design, hard as nails too!
| smitty1e wrote:
| > Even in the late 1990s, there was the palpable sense that Riven
| represented the end of an era, that even Cyan would not be able
| to catch lightning in a bottle a third time with yet another
| cerebral, contemplative, zeitgeist-stamping single-player puzzle
| game. Both Richard Vander Wende and Robyn Miller quit the company
| as soon as the obligatory rounds of promotional interviews had
| been completed
|
| I was an ultra-tourist. I just bought the game and a cheat book
| and blew through it with my mom in the fashion of watching a
| movie.
|
| Because that is about as much time as I want to sink into any
| escapist stuff.
|
| The other point is that I truly admire anyone ejecting at the top
| of their game, rather than and endless stream of weaker
| derivatives.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| What a story, and what a game. I remember being thrilled
| receiving this as a gift. Thankfully, my parents already had our
| PC upgraded to accept CD-roms; a technician had come to our home
| to replace the Floppy B drive with a CD-drive. I was confused
| about how the CDs would fit and mechanically operate in such a
| slot, but it all worked out. Let us play The Lost Mind of Dr
| Brain, which talked!
|
| Regrettably, Riven still wouldn't run, as it required display
| hardware that could display thousands-of-colors. Bummer.
|
| With a new PC many years later, I finally played it. It was one
| of those experiences where I wish I could forget it, so I could
| play it again. I tried again decades later, (after having played
| and loved all the other Myst games; IV was my favorite;
| outstanding atmosphere and scope; especially the starting and
| starry worlds). Regrettably, I still remembered how to solve
| almost every puzzle, and remembered the map layouts in detail.
| However, I remembered absolutely none of the plot of dialog!
|
| (The latest Myst re-releases are worth a play through too, as is
| Obduction. My favorites are still Riven and Myst IV though!)
| crhulls wrote:
| I wonder if your memory is an outlier? If I play a game, read a
| book, or watch a movie within a year or two I remember the
| edges and themes but I'll forget the details of the plot.
|
| Myst is an exception which is probably a testament to how
| impactful it was to 11 year old me, but I've played Riven twice
| and I could barely tell you what it is about. If I play it
| again, I'll start getting my memory jogged and it won't
| completely be like starting from scratch but pretty close to
| it.
|
| Dementia runs in my family so I am always paranoid about lapses
| in my memory (I'm 40). When I talk to others I don't seem to be
| alone.
|
| Which one of us is the norm?
| petermcneeley wrote:
| The CGI in riven is fantastic and still rivals most of what you
| see in a modern game engine.
|
| https://darkcephas.blogspot.com/2018/03/twenty-years-later-o...
| Inityx wrote:
| I'm not sure that holds anymore, since that article is 6 years
| old now and Obduction is coming up on 8... Better to compare it
| to the upcoming Riven remake:
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1712350/Riven/
| daneel_w wrote:
| Thanks for the amazing childhood memories.
| damontal wrote:
| The novels based on these games were really good. I think they
| are out of print unfortunately.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| Agreed, worth a trip to Thriftbooks or your favorite used
| bookstore.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| I got the first of the three in a high school book dump, and
| liked it so much I bought the trilogy. Still one of my favorite
| reads.
| quantisan wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myst_Reader
| olivierestsage wrote:
| Does anyone have a recommendation for the best way to get the
| "original experience" playing Myst (i.e. without
| updated/remastered graphics, etc.)?
| bshep wrote:
| infinite mac and load the myst cd from their UI
|
| http://infinitemac.org
| tomxor wrote:
| Is there some kind of trick to getting the CDs to load? I've
| tried Firefox and Chromium, nothing seems to happen on either
| when clicking on the CDs, no console errors.
| l72 wrote:
| Scummvm plays both myst and riven. It's perfect if you still have
| your original cds!
|
| https://www.scummvm.org/compatibility/DEV/mohawk:riven/
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Anyone know of any Let's Play of Riven that's ideally done by
| someone who hasn't played before, but is exceptionally bright as
| to make the LP move forward at a reasonable pace?
|
| Maybe this is an odd request. I find that LP's of games like this
| that I never finished as a kid work better than some expert
| playing it for the 12th time.
| phillco wrote:
| Day9 / Mostly Walking's is pretty good:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_TqymY5fCU
|
| I agree it's tricky to find the balance of a truly blind
| playthrough, sans hints, and one that's also enjoyable to watch
| because the inferences are made reasonably quickly.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Appreciate the suggestion!
| hyperion2010 wrote:
| Fascinating to compare the take on storytelling/worldbuilding
| articulated at the end of the article to a game at the complete
| opposite end of the spectrum, Dwarf Fortress which has the
| explicit aim of being a story-generating tool, but creates worlds
| sort of as an accidental byproduct. What would it take to be able
| to generate a puzzle game with the kind of depth seen in Riven
| using a generative tool like Dwarf Fortress? A deeper question
| might be, is there any generative process that would produce the
| complexity of Riven without an explicit desire or demand to
| create such complexity. The complaints by the author in a sense
| echo the utter impracticality of creating such complex puzzles.
| Most of the time the practical solution is just to have a key,
| but that leads to boring bog standard gameplay. Maybe a virtual
| civilization that only allows initiates that demonstrate a
| certain persistence and curiosity, but how do you weed out those
| that simply follow the instructions that others have given? Well,
| if you have the ability to generate a whole new set of equally
| challenging puzzles that can't be rote memorized and copied,
| maybe that is sufficient.
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