[HN Gopher] Glider - open-source eInk monitor with an emphasis o...
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       Glider - open-source eInk monitor with an emphasis on low latency
        
       Author : mistercheph
       Score  : 688 points
       Date   : 2024-05-14 18:19 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | Max-q wrote:
       | This is an amazing piece of work and the documentation is a great
       | introduction to EPD.
        
       | carterschonwald wrote:
       | This is great!
        
       | localfirst wrote:
       | im not familiar with this industry but
       | 
       | how far are we from magazine quality look and feel using eInk?
       | 
       | like there is a scene from an old 80s sci-fi movie dude whips out
       | a game magazine and the screenshot of games are fully animated
       | videos...
       | 
       | ive been waiting 30 years now for this tech
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | I believe we need to wait for e-ink patents to expire.
        
           | kjkjadksj wrote:
           | I'm surprised the eink patent holders are seemingly content
           | to lose their patent in time instead of licensing it and
           | making real money
        
           | Qwertious wrote:
           | The core patents already have expired. They have competition,
           | it's called Reinkstone (and their DES/cofferdam tech).
           | 
           | The reason e-inks are so expensive and progressing so slowly
           | is that it's a niche product which doesn't drive much R&D
           | spending (compared to LCDs, which sell _billions_ per quarter
           | and you 're reading this comment on).
        
             | sedatk wrote:
             | Didn't know that they expired. That's good news. We just
             | need exciting products now.
        
         | PaulStatezny wrote:
         | Given the couple years I spent using a Dasung Paperlike e-ink
         | monitor, I think we're pretty far off from that.
         | 
         | There seems to be a direct tradeoff between contrast/image-
         | brilliance and latency/frames-per-second. Many monitors can be
         | switched along that spectrum, but the current tech doesn't seem
         | to be able to deliver both simultaneously at a reasonable
         | price.
        
           | ant6n wrote:
           | As a not so proud owner of a Dasung color I have to agree.
           | The product is absolutely atrocious. It has like 8 colors,
           | not thousands. The contrast is shit, ,,white" is brown, black
           | is ... some darker brown. It's reflective. It heavily relies
           | on unstable dithering (so moving the mouse will jitter around
           | a large area of nearby pixels), which also makes everything
           | unreadable. The color processing is shit, it won't even try
           | to approximate displayed colors with the ones it can display.
           | 
           | You have to fight with the settings to just get something
           | that is vaguely usable, and set up the OS with custom colors
           | and an accessible theme. But even then it's so much more
           | straining to use than a normal monitor, because of the
           | reflections and shit contrast.
           | 
           | I think you could probably get something more useful by
           | building a 28" wall paper of game boy colors.
           | 
           | Worst purchase ever.
        
             | card_zero wrote:
             | What we need is a structural color display, using octopus
             | proteins.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration#Variabl
             | e...
        
         | Rebelgecko wrote:
         | A lot of the components you'd need for that sorta kinda exist:
         | 
         | Flexible e-ink displays
         | 
         | Color eink displays
         | 
         | High-ish refresh rate eink displays
         | 
         | The problem is AFAICT there's no device that covers all 3.
         | Color displays have pretty big tradeoffs in terms of
         | resolution/contrast/latency. However they're still way ahead of
         | where they were 5-10 years ago.
        
       | exceptione wrote:
       | Impressive breadth and depth of information in just the README
       | alone.
       | 
       | When this kind of stuff gets in the open like it does here, I
       | expect rapid innovation and disruption from the crowd.
        
         | abdullahkhalids wrote:
         | I would hope that the Pine Note people look at it. Progress for
         | them has been quite slow (I follow the discord), and they are
         | struggling with a lot of basic stuff.
        
           | tadfisher wrote:
           | Because someone needs to be paid to land Rockchip drivers in
           | mainline, and Rockchip aren't going to do it.
        
         | dheera wrote:
         | At least this is real ePaper and not that previous bull that
         | was trying to pass off monochrome LCD as low-latency ePaper.
        
         | 3abiton wrote:
         | You were not kidding, it's much more detailed than I
         | anticipated down to the physics theory of they work.
        
       | tonymet wrote:
       | I've been using a Kindle for 10+ years now , but the poor
       | responsiveness has always irked me. I can't tell if it's a
       | hardware or software issue. I'm glad to see this project is
       | focused on reducing latency on the hardware side.
       | 
       | Does anyone know why the Kindle is such a bad product? I use it
       | because I like e-ink and the e-book market is comprehensive, but
       | I don't think it's actually a good device.
        
         | stronglikedan wrote:
         | It's responsive enough to do what it was purpose built for -
         | read a book. It _can_ do other things, but it 's not made or
         | marketed to do them, so they keep the cost low by not
         | innovating on responsiveness. Instead, they make it more
         | comfortable to use in other ways, such as how it's held and
         | navigated, and the backlight.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | There are many high-quality products at a competitive cost.
           | That's a pathetic excuse.
           | 
           | A lot of time was spent integrating social features that no
           | one uses. That time could have been spent on quality &
           | latency.
           | 
           | I understand their business goals and objectives. It's still
           | a low-quality product.
           | 
           | A profitable product can also be terrible.
        
             | Tagbert wrote:
             | from what I've read, responsive screen refresh is inversely
             | related to battery life. A more responsive screen results
             | in less battery life. Amazon, and pretty much all other
             | eink readers have prioritized battery life over absolute
             | responsiveness.
             | 
             | They have made significant improvements in responsiveness
             | over the years. Do you remember how slow screen refreshes
             | were on the original Kindle? It's just that that is not a
             | high priority for their main use case of linear reading.
             | 
             | If you want to use it for reading PDF reference books, you
             | probably should look to one of the eink Android tablets
             | that are more general purpose devices and may have a faster
             | refresh rate.
        
               | jsheard wrote:
               | There's also an inverse relationship between response
               | time and image quality with e-ink, speeding up the
               | display comes at the cost of more smearing/ghosting.
               | There's often a software option to tweak that balance one
               | way or the other depending on your preference.
        
             | hex4def6 wrote:
             | As someone who worked on them a decade ago:
             | 
             | To be clear, the displays are not created by Amazon /
             | Lab126. Instead, they're a product of Eink Holdings, Inc.
             | 
             | From what I remember, most of the screen refresh algorithms
             | etc are Eink IP. And by the way, the cost of the display
             | module alone was eye-watering, especially when compared
             | with LCD displays...
             | 
             | With e-ink, you can drive it faster, at the expense of
             | massive power consumption or terrible ghosting /
             | artifacting. You're not going to get the 6 weeks of use out
             | of a battery doing that.
             | 
             | For reading a book, smudges / ghosting sucks, so they
             | optimize for full screen refreshes just often enough to
             | clear that up (that's when the screen goes black then
             | white, followed by the update).
             | 
             | It's kind of a physics based fundamental limitation -- the
             | display is closer to a mechanical display of old than an
             | LCD.
             | 
             | The kindle is a product that does one thing well: display
             | static text in any lighting condition with a similar
             | quality to the printed page.
        
               | klabb3 wrote:
               | > Instead, they're a product of Eink Holdings, Inc. From
               | what I remember, most of the screen refresh algorithms
               | etc are Eink IP. And by the way, the cost of the display
               | module alone was eye-watering
               | 
               | Layman here, but what you describe sounds very much like
               | innovation held back by patents:
               | 
               | At the core, it's really promising tech with actual major
               | advantages over LCDs with applications already in many
               | domains and possibly many more in the future; all you'd
               | need really is incremental improvements, similar to the
               | journey of LCD. Remember the shitty TFT(?) monitors from
               | 20 years ago? Ghosting, low resolution, delay, low
               | contrast, backlight bleeding, etc.
               | 
               | If we hypothetically had 20 companies competing the
               | traditional way, throwing international manufacturing and
               | material science know-how on these bad boys, I'd bet $100
               | that we'd see massive gains in ability at a fraction of
               | marginal cost - from incrementalism alone - way before
               | you reach physical limitations. And with a bit of luck,
               | there might be a breakthrough in the core tech as well.
               | 
               | > It's kind of a physics based fundamental limitation --
               | the display is closer to a mechanical display of old than
               | an LCD.
               | 
               | I hear you. But brilliant people have been wrong about
               | these statements in all kinds of areas before. Could you
               | share more detailed what those hard limitations might be?
        
               | treflop wrote:
               | The core patents have already expired.
               | 
               | AFAIK manufacturing e-ink displays is still difficult.
               | 
               | I also have worked with e-ink displays for hobby projects
               | and you're flipping tiny balls of ink. Unfortunately
               | e-ink displays are extremely slow and it only gets worse
               | if you want colors or anything you might want in a
               | display. E-ink displays look cool and sound cool but
               | really suck to work with.
        
               | carlosjobim wrote:
               | There are high tech eInk devices that can refresh much
               | faster than a Kindle and that you can buy right now, but
               | any eInk discussion on Hacker News lives in a parallel
               | universe where those devices should never be mentioned
               | and we should pretend that the technology is where it was
               | 10 years ago.
               | 
               | With the rapid rate of development recently, I would
               | expect eInk displays to break the "magic" 24 fps barrier
               | in 2025 and hit the mainstream in a major way.
               | Considering that offices worldwide have been constructed
               | to block out sunlight to accommodate display use, this
               | tech has the potential to change everything.
        
               | klabb3 wrote:
               | Very cool! Do you have a link to a demo to see what it
               | would look like?
        
               | carlosjobim wrote:
               | Check out the Boox devices, there's a YouTuber called
               | "mydeepguide" who makes extensive reviews.
        
               | bobmcnamara wrote:
               | Sharp MIP! I drove over locked a small one at 120FPS
               | once. Wouldn't do 240fps though.
        
               | Qwertious wrote:
               | >Layman here, but what you describe sounds very much like
               | innovation held back by patents
               | 
               | It's not patents, it's economy of scale: LCDs ship
               | _billions_ per quarter and are used in phones
               | /watches/laptops/PC monitors/TVs/car-dashes/coffee-
               | machines/fridges/kiosks/etc etc etc, whereas e-ink
               | screens are used in e-readers, supermarket tags, e-notes
               | (stylus tablets), and basically nothing else.
               | 
               | When LCDs ship orders of magnitude more SKUs, they
               | inevitably have lower costs. That's just economics.
               | 
               | Besides which, Amazon ships Kindles at-cost, there's no
               | way they'd be price-gouged - if E-Ink tried to screw them
               | then they'd buy E-Ink Corp. It wouldn't even be the first
               | passive display company they bought. See: LiquaVista.
               | 
               | >Could you share more detailed what those hard
               | limitations might be?
               | 
               | The ink in the e-ink needs to be shuffled up and down
               | with each refresh, but if they're pushed too quickly then
               | they pound the capsule they're in and damage it, or get
               | permanently stuck. Either will break the display. And
               | it's _powder_ not a solid object, so the display needs to
               | move _all_ the ink, down, or you 'll have ghosting.
        
               | amadeuspagel wrote:
               | > Besides which, Amazon ships Kindles at-cost, there's no
               | way they'd be price-gouged - if E-Ink tried to screw them
               | then they'd buy E-Ink Corp. It wouldn't even be the first
               | passive display company they bought. See: LiquaVista.
               | 
               | Imagine you own E-Ink Corp. You know Amazon needs your
               | screens. You can sell them the screens or you can sell
               | them the company but you can price-gouge them either way.
               | (Of course E-Ink Corp is a stock corporation. The ability
               | to price-gouge amazon is priced in. There's no reason to
               | assume Amazon would save money by buying the company.)
        
               | faeriechangling wrote:
               | I've tried to read manga and graphic novels on e-readers
               | which makes EVERY page turn take longer, and it's very
               | clear to me that e-ink latency is a huge problem. Boox is
               | notable for having faster page turns since they're
               | essentially just customised android tablets with an e-ink
               | screen.
        
             | andrewmutz wrote:
             | > A lot of time was spent integrating social features that
             | no one uses. That time could have been spent on quality &
             | latency.
             | 
             | Goodreads integration is the best! I track books I want to
             | read with it and then when I'm ready for a new book use the
             | integration to download a sample on the spot
        
               | tonymet wrote:
               | that's good maybe I should give it another review. It
               | seemed like a neglected part of the OS
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | Kindle is now the kleenex of ebook readers, certainly not a bad
         | product by any stretch.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | what qualities are good? I admit they have a good ebook
           | selection , networking features are good, and the price point
           | is good when on discount.
           | 
           | But the software is awful and the application of the eink
           | hardware is terrible too.
        
             | sokoloff wrote:
             | It's a better book than actual books for 98+% of books I've
             | read on it.
             | 
             | Taking as many books as I want onto an airplane for a
             | business trip is great. My kids and wife read theirs
             | literally daily. I'd have to look up how old they are, but
             | the newest one is 2 years old and I think mine is around 10
             | (it's a first gen paper white).
             | 
             | The e-ink display updates fast enough to not distract me
             | from reading. The battery lasts multiple business trips,
             | even on my very old unit.
             | 
             | I'm surprised how negatively you feel about it, given my
             | and my family's very good experiences.
        
               | tonymet wrote:
               | The ability to take a library with me is great,
               | obviously. I also primarily read on kindle.
               | 
               | The complaints I have are all qualities within their
               | control that seem to be lagging due to neglect
               | (responsiveness, UI, stability, degrading performance
               | over time, keyboard, search)
               | 
               | Now ignore the library aspect and compare reading a
               | single book to reading a single e-book and the gaps will
               | be more visible.
        
               | sokoloff wrote:
               | I was recently given a physical book as part of a work-
               | related book club and took it along with my Kindle on a
               | family vacation in April, so I ended up doing a direct
               | comparison. The physical book was not better than a
               | Kindle version would have been. It was bigger, heavier,
               | was only one book, was harder to read in the evening,
               | harder to highlight passages and find them later. I think
               | the only thing is the around double resolution of the
               | print version, where the Kindle's ~300dpi is entirely
               | passable, and the fact that the book's "battery life" is
               | >100 years while the Kindle needs charging once per
               | month. Still a big Kindle win.
        
               | amenhotep wrote:
               | You really threw me for a second with talking about your
               | kids reading and then saying "I'd have to look up how old
               | they are, but the newest one is two years old"!
        
             | kjkjadksj wrote:
             | Depends on your perspective. If you sell kindles you
             | probably are pretty pleased with almost 100 million units
             | sold. Not a lot of products get those numbers. It sold
             | quite successfully I'd say.
        
             | paulcole wrote:
             | Incredible book selection. Ease of buying books. Great
             | battery life. Great screen and light. Great reading
             | experience.
             | 
             | I read 100+ books a year on my Kindles.
        
               | tonymet wrote:
               | Yes the cloud sync and the marketplace are great , with
               | some reservations on licensing and ownership.
               | 
               | The device itself is neglected, underpowered,
               | unresponsive, unreliable , sluggish with a terrible UI.
               | 
               | Decompose the concept.
        
               | paulcole wrote:
               | > The device itself is neglected, underpowered,
               | unresponsive, unreliable , sluggish with a terrible UI.
               | 
               | UI is great! I can easily read on the thing. What is
               | "terrible"? Who cares if the device is underpowered or
               | whatever? I tap on the screen and things happen. I've
               | owned nearly every kindle ever released and never had any
               | of the complaints you do.
               | 
               | It's great for reading, I'm not mining bitcoin on the
               | thing.
               | 
               | It's an excellent single-use device.
               | 
               | What exactly do you want the Kindle to be?
        
         | seanp2k2 wrote:
         | What are you trying to do with it that you're concluding it's a
         | "bad product" due to the slow refresh times? Kindles have
         | always been the benchmark ebook reader and the most common
         | piece of e-ink technology that you can actually buy. Hardly a
         | "bad product" in any dimension that matters in business terms.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | Successful doesn't necessarily mean good. the UI is slow. It
           | crashes with large books. The hardware is seemingly under-
           | powered. The OS degrades in usability over time. Search
           | indexing is poor. The lack of responsiveness makes the
           | keyboard unusable.
           | 
           | I've heard similar pitfalls about Kindle Scribe, the write-
           | able Kindle.
        
             | pnw wrote:
             | I use a Kindle Scribe almost every day, have read dozens
             | and dozens of books and documents on it. Maybe we have
             | different expectations but I love mine and take it
             | everywhere. It's never crashed.
             | 
             | When I am trying to focus on reading a book, I appreciate
             | that the Kindle doesn't have too many bells and whistles. I
             | don't want notifications popping off and the distraction of
             | fast Internet access.
        
               | Qwertious wrote:
               | The Kindle Scribe is way more expensive than normal
               | kindles (and has to handle the more computationally
               | demanding task of vector graphics), so it would have a
               | faster processor, and would be able to handle ebooks way
               | easier than a cheap Kindle.
               | 
               | Not saying you're wrong, just that your anecdote doesn't
               | mean much about $100/$50 Kindles.
        
               | tonymet wrote:
               | I looked into Scribe and it sounds like they upgraded the
               | hardware to making writing more responsive. that's good
               | news.
        
           | darby_eight wrote:
           | They've been the benchmark for amazon kindle books. They suck
           | for pdfs or anything with graphics.
        
             | tonymet wrote:
             | Again, you're confusing market success with quality. Many
             | beautiful products fail and many awful products succeed.
             | 
             | I'm talking about aesthetics. In this case, elegance,
             | utility, responsiveness, durability, efficiency .
        
             | Tagbert wrote:
             | you are confusing your needs with the use case of the
             | Kindle which is heavily focused on linear reading of text,
             | mostly fiction. Graphics and PDFs are much lower on the
             | priority scale.
        
               | darby_eight wrote:
               | > Graphics and PDFs are much lower on the priority scale.
               | 
               | Unless of course you read books that have graphics or
               | come in pdf form.
        
               | Tagbert wrote:
               | Which is not the business that Amazon and Kobo are in.
        
               | t-3 wrote:
               | PDFs and comics are not a small use case at all - the
               | push to larger screens is mostly driven by people who
               | want to read scientific papers, business documents, etc
               | which come in pdf form, or manga and other graphical
               | works (the drive for color ereaders seems to come almost
               | entirely from this segment). The smaller "ebook only"
               | readers are much cheaper and marketed less aggressively.
        
               | Tagbert wrote:
               | Even optimized e-ink devices are not particularly
               | suitable for those kinds of materials and most of the
               | e-ink reader manufacturers have not tried to address that
               | market. It is generally better served by LCD tablets.
        
           | kimixa wrote:
           | I think e-readers are pretty much a solved problem for books
           | that consist of solely text - it's got to the point where
           | they only differentiate themselves on things more related to
           | personal taste than any technical merit. And price, of
           | course.
           | 
           | I consider myself a heavy user of ereaders, probably
           | averaging over an hour a day, and have had a few in my time
           | (Kindle paperwhite, Kindle Voyage, Kobo Aura H2O, latest the
           | Kindle Oasis - which I got in Jan 2019). The only real time I
           | felt like I got an "upgrade" was the slightly denser screen
           | on the voyage, then the slightly larger screen on the Aura.
           | The Oasis feels functionally the same for my use case (again,
           | 99.9% text, no images or diagrams or animations, so can't
           | compare them). But really the only reason I "upgraded" after
           | the voyage is leaving it on a train or got damaged in my
           | luggage one time.
           | 
           | And what can they really improve on it? There are denser
           | screens - but they don't make the font size I use actually
           | look any better. There are larger screens, but it's already
           | about the limit of what I want for portability, and much
           | larger would be harder to read not easier. There are faster
           | refreshing screens, but I've never even noticed the page
           | refresh speed, as it's lost in the time it takes to realign
           | my eyes to the top of the page anyway.
           | 
           | So what's left? Looks? "Premium" materials? Thinness? The
           | oasis is already at the point where any thinner or bezels any
           | smaller and you couldn't hold it. I don't read comics on it,
           | so don't really need a higher resolution, or colour panel
           | (though can see the advantage if you did). Same with flash
           | size - every book I've ever read on it (nearly 3000) is still
           | on my 8gb model, and it's not even at 50% capacity.
           | 
           | And now my Oasis battery is starting to fade - it doesn't
           | more than a few days anymore - and somehow it feels weird
           | considering buying the same thing again - or pry open the
           | back off and try to replace it - though who knows what that
           | would do to it's water resistance. I guess the newer models
           | have an amber backlight option, which would be nice, but
           | still doesn't feel like an _upgrade_ to something I purchased
           | over 5 years ago now? Or even more as I only got _that_
           | because the (functionally equivalent) predecessor got crushed
           | on a plane.
           | 
           | So I think my point is that for the "Reading Books" use case,
           | a kindle has already reached the maxima. Any "improvement"
           | would almost be a waste - why improve refresh times when it
           | won't actually affect the user experience one bit?
           | 
           | Is there something I'm missing? Is this just a local maxima
           | where you'd look back on and feel stupid for not seeing the
           | "obvious" improvement path? Or is ereader "development" just
           | a waste now as it's now just a commodity?
        
             | Qwertious wrote:
             | >Is there something I'm missing? Is this just a local
             | maxima where you'd look back on and feel stupid for not
             | seeing the "obvious" improvement path?
             | 
             | A handle. My hand is not L-shaped. Make it hand-mirror
             | shaped and shift as much weight as possible into the
             | handle. Preferably a fold-down handle.
             | 
             | A folding screen. Or rather, two screens with a hinge, no
             | need for fancy flexible screen tech. It doesn't matter if
             | there's a visible bezel between the screens, you're only
             | displaying text. Ideally, you'd cram it _just_ small enough
             | that it can fit in your pocket when folded.
             | 
             | Also, once you have a handle you don't need bezels.
        
               | kimixa wrote:
               | A handle is an interesting one - I'd be a bit worried by
               | having that you'd make it so you can't hold it any other
               | way. As I read I naturally reposition my hands, sometimes
               | both on the device on each side, sometimes one gripping
               | the side. Sometimes my thumbs supporting it from the
               | bottom, sometimes the thumb over the top corner. It's
               | light enough you don't really need that much "grip".
               | Sometimes not really gripped at all, but leant against
               | sometime, like my hand or the back of a seat tray table
               | on a train. I do the same thing with paperbacks.
               | 
               | I can't imagine holding a hand mirror for any length of
               | time comfortably - especially if there's only a single
               | orientation you can grip it with the screen upright - but
               | that may be the weight distribution as you mentioned.
               | 
               | Folding would be useful for putting it in a bag or
               | fitting it somewhere, which hasn't really been a big
               | issue for me. A flat profile is already fine when putting
               | it in a laptop bag - it's thin enough it just slides down
               | the side of the pocket. I wouldn't be surprised if
               | decreasing the total volume is pretty much at it's limit
               | already with being able to be held - but maybe putting
               | that is a more square package when stored would be easier
               | in some cases?
        
             | mariusor wrote:
             | Probably you've seen already, but Kobo is now experimenting
             | with colour screens, plus note taking. People on the
             | internet seem enthusiastic about the colour screens at
             | least.
             | 
             | So maybe zines and comics is where ebook readers are
             | heading.
        
             | tonymet wrote:
             | i'm compelling people that it's not solved given how
             | critical reading is. It should be better than reading a
             | book in every way. Right now the library sync features are
             | better but the reading experience is worse.
        
         | ByThyGrace wrote:
         | E-ink devices have improved a lot over the last 10 years,
         | across the board: refresh rate, latency, computing power,
         | responsiveness, you name it.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | Indeed, and though Kindle has improved, it hasn't improved by
           | much. I've owned 4 generations and they are all a bit better,
           | especially when new.
           | 
           | It's the same complaint people make about iOS devices
           | degrading to force upgrades.
           | 
           | I don't think it's deliberate but I do think it's
           | deliberately neglected.
        
         | dools wrote:
         | > Does anyone know why the Kindle is such a bad product?
         | 
         | Because it's made by Amazon
        
           | mcast wrote:
           | To be fair, the Kindle is primarily used for reading books
           | and doesn't require a fast refresh rate. It also lasts for
           | weeks (months?) without charging.
        
             | tonymet wrote:
             | It's not about refresh rate it's about responsiveness. As
             | close to 0ms as possible. On kindle there's a frustrating
             | amount of input lag
        
               | TillE wrote:
               | The response you're waiting for is a refresh of the
               | screen.
               | 
               | The Kindle excels at being a low-cost device for reading
               | novels, or linear non-fiction with no graphics etc. For
               | anything fancier, it's simply not built for that.
        
           | danielscrubs wrote:
           | Isn't it funny how the CEO is always saying that user
           | experience is their primary focus, and you get such a
           | mediocre experience?
        
         | vbezhenar wrote:
         | I used few ebooks and Kindle is the only one that actually
         | works as expected. Some ebooks I used drained battery in few
         | days, not delivering promise of long life. Some ebooks were
         | just crap and broke after few months. Kindle works few weeks
         | from one charge for my use (1-2 hours of reading per day), it's
         | water-proof so I can read my books while taking a bath
         | (priceless). I never had any particular issues with it.
         | 
         | Its UI seems oriented to promote Amazon Store and I never used
         | it, sending books over e-mail and deleting after read, that's
         | OK with me. I'd prefer for its library to have folders and I'd
         | prefer for it to work as USB stick like other ebooks do, so I
         | can connect it to PC and organize things inside as I want, but
         | those are not necessary.
         | 
         | So may be Kindle is bad, but rest are worse, I don't know a
         | single ebook brand of Amazon scale. They all seem to be Chinese
         | no-names which come and go without investments to quality and
         | reputation.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | I agree with all of this, and I've noticed as much with the
           | other readers. Some users promote Kobo reader as a quality
           | alternative, but I haven't tried it.
        
             | lidavidm wrote:
             | Kobo works quite well: you can set it up without an account
             | (needs a bit of manual fiddling) if you really want, and
             | either way after that you can just plug it in and drag-and-
             | drop epubs to the device. Battery life, responsiveness,
             | etc. are all fine to me (the older devices actually did a
             | bit better IMO and it mostly only gets bogged down for
             | comics, regular books are fine)
        
           | hex4def6 wrote:
           | Yeah.
           | 
           | I like tools that do one thing well. The Kindle has hit that
           | spot for a long time. There were incremental improvements
           | (faster processor, 3G/4G, front light, higher DPI / contrast,
           | etc), but it's surprising how similar a 2010 kindle is to a
           | 2024 one.
        
           | abdullahkhalids wrote:
           | After registration, I have never connected my Kindle to the
           | internet - 6-7 years now. This has prevented updates that
           | degrade performance, and Amazon getting my usage data. I just
           | copy over ebooks using usb, optionally after converting to
           | mobi using Calibre.
           | 
           | Works perfectly.
        
           | callalex wrote:
           | >I'd prefer for it to work as USB stick like other ebooks do
           | 
           | Have you tried Calibre? https://calibre-ebook.com/
        
         | graypegg wrote:
         | I use a pocketbook right now, and was using quite a few kobos
         | over the years prior. At least with those, I've noticed that
         | we've kinda reached some ceiling for responsiveness, and I
         | think it's the software/computing hardware not the screen
         | hardware causing it. Stuff like page turns can be quite fast,
         | but closing out of a book and opening another really feels like
         | you're straining the poor thing.
         | 
         | Pocketbook particularly takes ages to reflow text if you rotate
         | it. I think it's reflowing the entire ebook to get page numbers
         | + chapter positions? Very annoying if you forget to turn off
         | the accelerometer.
        
           | Liskni_si wrote:
           | Try using KOReader instead of the built-in reader software.
           | It's a bit faster (doesn't wait to reflow the entire book if
           | you change fonts, margins, orientation, whatever), and also
           | it's easier to achieve consistent rendering of books (fonts,
           | spacing, etc.) as it supports overriding the stylesheet, and
           | just generally handles HTML/CSS better.
           | 
           | Oh, and speaking of responsiveness, I found that it depends
           | on temperature a lot. E-ink apparently has a sweet spot at
           | room temperature, but when I use the device outdoors, in
           | either sub 10 @C temperatures or over 30 @C the screen
           | changes noticeably slower.
        
         | green-salt wrote:
         | It becomes a much more stable device when you jailbreak it and
         | put something like KOReader. You can put books on it with
         | Calibre or just SFTP afterwards.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | thanks for the recommendation I've started on the jailbreak
           | for my old kindle. I'd like to turn it into an offline
           | wikipedia & public domain books reader.
        
         | pquki4 wrote:
         | I don't know which kindle you have, but my Scribe is noticably
         | faster than the Oasis 2nd gen from 2017. Almost makes me want
         | to replace the Oasis with the latest Paperwhite.
        
           | tonymet wrote:
           | my paperwhite 2022(ish) seemed faster than the previous one
           | (2017?) but now it's nearly as bad
        
         | karunamurti wrote:
         | I think it's always e-ink, their patents, their evergreening
         | patents, and their lawyers.
        
         | t0bia_s wrote:
         | I recently bough Onyx Boox tablet. After degoogling device I'm
         | really enjoy possibilities of android system more then closed
         | one like Kindle or Kobo or Pocketbook.
         | 
         | Main purpose is reading a lot of sheet music documents, making
         | annotations and share with choir/orchestra. I discovered that
         | Calibre is excellent tool for organisation of large database of
         | sheet music documents.
         | 
         | What surprised me most is how responsive drawing/writing by
         | stylus is. Weird part is that apps need optimalisaton for fast
         | responsivness which some apps have and some don't. Which mean
         | eink technology capabilities are limited by SW quite
         | significantly.
        
         | poulpy123 wrote:
         | > I can't tell if it's a hardware or software issue.
         | 
         | it's neither, it's a physics issue. Moving electrically charged
         | particles isn't going as fast as making current flow flow
         | through semi conductors
        
       | LeoPanthera wrote:
       | I want to make a Compact Mac clone with an eink display like
       | this. How wonderful would that look.
        
         | afandian wrote:
         | I'd settle for an eink Newton.
        
           | WillAdams wrote:
           | I'd be glad of a contemporary device w/ a b/w LED --- still
           | saddened that there wasn't a replacement for the Asus Eee
           | Note EA800 --- and I'm still annoyed that Apple has yet to
           | make a device to replace my Newton (at a minimum, I'd want
           | Apple Pencil support on an iPhone (or iPod Touch if they'd
           | bring that back) or Mini iPad), but using something other
           | than an LCD for daylight viewability would be something I'd
           | be glad of (trying to out-bright the sun on a battery-powered
           | device is just as stupid as it sounds to my mind).
        
         | tonymet wrote:
         | or reboot Palm pilot
        
           | jollyjerry wrote:
           | I wish I could find my Palm V. That device _felt_ like
           | quality in your hand. Metal back with satin finish, leather
           | cover, the stylus was a snug fit.
        
         | JKCalhoun wrote:
         | It can look good [1] but I haven't yet seen the refresh rate of
         | eInk that I thought could handle a moving cursor. Maybe with
         | the right driver you can these days.
         | 
         | [1] https://engineersneedart.com/systemsix/systemsix.html
        
         | jwells89 wrote:
         | A machine with the 12" Macbook form factor and an e-ink display
         | with optional orange glowlight for night running something akin
         | to Classic Mac OS would make for a very zen, highly portable
         | writing machine. Would probably get battery life measured in
         | weeks, too.
        
       | thetinymite wrote:
       | I think this is the original repo:
       | https://gitlab.com/zephray/glider
       | 
       | based on this tweet:
       | https://twitter.com/zephray_wenting/status/17901730074884506...
        
         | SushiHippie wrote:
         | The GitHub repository description also says:
         | 
         | > Open-source E-ink monitor. Mirror of
         | https://gitlab.com/zephray/glider
        
       | megous wrote:
       | On the other end of the spectrum, there are production devices
       | driving eInk displays using a regular LCD controllers. :)))
       | 
       | Anyway, I appretiate the waveform format documentation and tools.
       | Might kick me back to working on my Pocketbook display driver.
        
       | ElijahLynn wrote:
       | So so grateful for the open sourcing of all the knowledge about
       | Eink in your brain zephray!!!
       | 
       | So much great information in your readme about Eink. I've already
       | read a decent bit of it, and am going to reference it for the
       | years to come!
        
       | OptCohTomo wrote:
       | "Optical teardown of a Kindle Paperwhite display by OCT":
       | https://arxiv.org/abs/1605.05174 OCT = Optical Coherence
       | Tomography This paper shows what is going on inside the display.
        
       | rkagerer wrote:
       | What a great primer in the readme!
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | _[I know nothing for real in this area.]_
       | 
       | The Limitations section was interesting to read about. As I was
       | thinking about it, I began to wonder if 1 memory cell per pixel
       | could be used in an analog fashion (if it could mimic the panel
       | response) with a high speed ADC. Seems more complicated and less
       | accurate that what's described, and perhaps not cheaper if
       | possible at all.
        
       | snvzz wrote:
       | Every eINK controller sucks. This person took upon themselves to
       | fix that, and released the result, which is now the state of the
       | art, as open source hardware.
       | 
       | I love people and projects like this.
        
       | beacon294 wrote:
       | I was interested in e-ink solutions for a long time due to eye
       | fatigue and dry eye.
       | 
       | It turns out I had a very minor stigmatism. My eye doctor did not
       | recommend correcting it, but upon correction my dry eye and eye
       | fatigue completely went away.
       | 
       | So, get your minor astigmatism corrected via computer glasses,
       | regardless of the eye doctor, best practice for minimum
       | prescription strength.
        
         | snvzz wrote:
         | >computer glasses
         | 
         | What is this?
        
           | idle76 wrote:
           | Glasses for working at a computer. The same as reading
           | glasses. The word is directly translated from the common name
           | for it in my native language.
        
             | snvzz wrote:
             | Oh. So the glasses correct the astigmatism. Understood.
        
           | jdietrich wrote:
           | Glasses dispensed for reading often don't work well for
           | computer use. Historically "reading" meant looking at a book
           | held in your hands, but computer monitors are further away
           | and at a higher angle than a book. If you spend a lot of time
           | using a computer, you need to discuss this with your
           | dispensing optician when you buy glasses to make sure you get
           | the right lenses for your needs. You may benefit from a
           | dedicated pair of glasses for computer use, or a properly
           | designed varifocal lens. This is especially important if
           | you're over 35 and are likely to have some degree of
           | presbyopia (look for an "add" value on your prescription, or
           | different prescriptions for near and distance).
           | 
           | There are a lot of special lens technologies and coatings
           | that are advertised as being able to reduce eye strain when
           | using digital devices. Most of these have little or no
           | evidence to support their efficacy, so be wary if they try to
           | upsell you on expensive extras.
        
           | HumblyTossed wrote:
           | Basically intermediate distance glasses.
        
           | bloopernova wrote:
           | I sat at my home desk and measured the max and min distance
           | between my eyes and all parts of the screen. I then presented
           | those measurements in my next eye appointment, and the
           | optician (not sure of American terms) was very appreciative
           | that he had specific values to work from. He then simulated
           | text at the different distances, and adjusted my prescription
           | to work correctly over that distance. I think it was 18
           | inches minimum, 30 inches maximum.
           | 
           | I got computer glasses from that, no special blue filtering
           | or whatever, just set to give me the best view.
        
         | Baeocystin wrote:
         | Seconding this. I have a very minor astigmatism in my right
         | eye. Getting it corrected with custom reading glasses instead
         | of just using regular readers, even though perceptually it's
         | fine with the cheap ones, is night and day in terms of eye
         | strain and headache. I was genuinely surprised when I figured
         | out how much of a difference it makes.
        
           | isoprophlex wrote:
           | Whoa. So, on a whim, I got my eyes measured when my wife was
           | picking up her glasses. Very slight astigmatism in my right
           | eye.
           | 
           | And like you say, even though it's a minor abberation, the
           | difference it makes in fatigue is incredible, especially
           | after a day of coding work behind a screen..!
           | 
           | Straight up the best 200 bucks I spent in terms of QOL
           | improvement. Well that and a very nice thick blanket to sleep
           | under.
        
         | rthnbgrredf wrote:
         | I'm glad that you have found a solution. Dry eye and eye
         | fatigue often go hand in hand. Theres a whole forum dedicated
         | to the topic of eye strain from LED based screens. Might be
         | worth a visit for some with similar issues:
         | https://ledstrain.org/
        
       | birdlogic wrote:
       | It's a fun coincidence that this is named "Glider", since a fair
       | number of glider (sailplane) pilots use e-ink displays (rooted
       | kobo/kindle readers usually) due to great sunlight readability,
       | commonly running something like XCSoar:
       | https://www.xcsoar.org/hardware/
        
         | 4ggr0 wrote:
         | So submarines are controlled with logitech controllers, gliders
         | use e-ink readers as displays. Wonder what other tech is being
         | reused inside of niche transportation methods :)
        
           | lionkor wrote:
           | code I wrote as a 12 year old beginner in python is running
           | all of the Deutsche Bahn, I think. I suspect it anyways, it
           | has the same performance characteristics.
        
             | 4ggr0 wrote:
             | I think python would be too usable for DB :D Probably still
             | on COBOL.
             | 
             | Beginning of this year, they were apparently looking for a
             | Windows 3.11 Administrator [0]
             | 
             | [0] https://www.heise.de/news/Deutsche-Bahn-sucht-Admin-
             | fuer-Win...
        
               | b3orn wrote:
               | Interestingly they're also looking from Smalltalk
               | developers, didn't expect that.
        
             | Alex-Programs wrote:
             | You can't just say that without context! What does the code
             | do? How did it end up in DB? I'm really curious now.
        
             | bemmu wrote:
             | One of my tasks at my first job at 17 was writing some
             | visual basic involving train track tilt formulas for a
             | national railway. I dearly hope no-one is actually using it
             | anywhere, and has never used it anywhere.
        
         | bestouff wrote:
         | Paraglider pilots also use the exact same combo.
        
       | feverzsj wrote:
       | Yes, you can make eInk refresh faster, but with ghosting and
       | limited grayscale level. eInk hasn't advanced much since its
       | advent, and no sign it will, as it's controlled by one company.
        
         | girvo wrote:
         | > eInk hasn't advanced much since its advent
         | 
         | Yes, it has. Even purely from the consumer facing side: the
         | latest panels are far better in grayscale depth, sharpness and
         | refresh rate (and their controller still kind of suck). Not to
         | mention colour e-ink panels in consumer products seeing rapid
         | improvements gen over gen.
         | 
         | > and no sign it will, as it's controlled by one company.
         | 
         | That's less true today, and there are multiple implementations
         | of this idea that are being commercialised.
         | 
         | Though, sadly, e-ink the company bought one of them...
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Did anyone ever investigate the idea of adding feedback control
       | to e-ink displays?
       | 
       | I get the feeling that all this flashing and latency of e-ink
       | displays is entirely due to the open-loop nature of the
       | controller.
        
       | sneak wrote:
       | What's the fastest cpu/highest ram COTS device that has an eInk
       | display?
        
       | niek_pas wrote:
       | I'm sure I'm missing it, but is there a video showing the 'low
       | latency'?
        
         | feverzsj wrote:
         | For 'low latency' in eInk, it's about the same time to turn
         | over a page.
        
         | mistercheph wrote:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XduK7wn9SE4
        
       | MaximilianEmel wrote:
       | Of course it's Wenting. Hopefully that means a video about it,
       | too.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/@nbzwt/videos
        
         | ploek wrote:
         | They have a video where they have an eInk display show video at
         | 60 Hz. In contrast to a previous video, where the display was
         | running at 2.4 Hz and the video then sped up by 10x, this is
         | not sped up. What kind of black magic is this?
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XduK7wn9SE4
        
       | sotix wrote:
       | The linked GitHub is a mirror of the original Gitlab repo:
       | https://gitlab.com/zephray/glider
        
       | sotix wrote:
       | This is a really cool resource! I have been wanting to make a
       | device that uses an sink display for learning purposes for a long
       | time, but I don't know where to even start with that since I've
       | only ever worked on software. This looks like it will help quite
       | a bit with some of that learning.
        
       | elevation wrote:
       | Any idea what tool was used to create this diagram?
       | 
       | https://github.com/Modos-Labs/Glider/blob/main/assets/glider...
        
         | ansgri wrote:
         | Looks like draw.io / diagrams.net
        
         | yboris wrote:
         | Related: _eYd_ - https://www.yworks.com/products/yed
         | 
         | It lets you auto "re-flow" diagrams using different algorithms
         | (e.g. fewest intersections between arrows, center-out, etc).
        
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