[HN Gopher] New gel breaks down alcohol in the body
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       New gel breaks down alcohol in the body
        
       Author : geox
       Score  : 76 points
       Date   : 2024-05-14 11:46 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (ethz.ch)
 (TXT) w3m dump (ethz.ch)
        
       | jjgreen wrote:
       | ... _convert alcohol in the intestine into harmless acetic acid
       | before it enters the bloodstream._
       | 
       | You could put it on your chips post-pub and eliminate the need
       | for vinegar!
        
       | tguvot wrote:
       | pretty sure it's what zbiotics do
        
         | striking wrote:
         | Zbiotics targets acetaldehyde, not ethyl alcohol. From the
         | article:
         | 
         | > The gel shifts the breakdown of alcohol from the liver to the
         | digestive tract. In contrast to when alcohol is metabolised in
         | the liver, no harmful acetaldehyde is produced as an
         | intermediate product," explains Professor Raffaele Mezzenga
         | from the Laboratory of Food & Soft Materials at ETH Zurich.
         | Acetaldehyde is toxic and is responsible for many health
         | problems caused by excessive alcohol consumption.
         | 
         | Using this gel would manifest as simply not being as
         | intoxicated, whereas Zbiotics is intended to allow for
         | intoxication but prevent the hangover afterwards.
        
           | tguvot wrote:
           | i meant conceptually even if mechanism of action is
           | different.
        
             | striking wrote:
             | Sure, if the difference between being intoxicated and not
             | is merely conceptual to you. For me it is not, but to each
             | their own.
        
       | throwup238 wrote:
       | _> In the future, people who take the gel could reduce the
       | harmful and intoxicating effects of alcohol._
       | 
       | I understand harm reduction but what is the point of reducing the
       | _intoxicating_ effects of alcohol? What 's the point?
        
         | sva_ wrote:
         | Yeah people who want that could just drink beer with a low
         | alcohol content (so called "alcohol-free beer", which usually
         | still has some 0.5%)
        
         | colecut wrote:
         | To drive home? =)
        
           | zolbrek wrote:
           | I would love a supplement with that effect. It's not always
           | fun having to slowly sober up while watching your friends
           | drinking.
        
         | alamortsubite wrote:
         | Non-alcoholic beer sales are close to $40B/year globally and
         | going up. Generally speaking, the flavor of non-alcoholic beer
         | pales in comparison to the real thing.
         | 
         | Then there's also the market for wine and spirits.
        
           | 2024throwaway wrote:
           | There are some new, very good, NA beers on the market these
           | days. Untitled Art and Athletic are two brands that are doing
           | great work.
        
             | ahahahahah wrote:
             | Yes, those both make some good NA beers. I wouldn't
             | categorize them as good beers, but they are drinkable.
        
             | alamortsubite wrote:
             | Yes, those are great for NA beers (De Halve Maan's Brugse
             | Sportzot is better). Unfortunately, they're mediocre among
             | normal beers.
        
           | ravenstine wrote:
           | > Generally speaking, the flavor of non-alcoholic beer pales
           | in comparison to the real thing.
           | 
           | Ehhh... that's a bit of an overstatement, though I mostly
           | agree.
           | 
           | I just happened to be doing a crapload of bar hopping this
           | last month and got into trying different non-alcoholic beers
           | because they're way more prevalent than they used to be.
           | 
           | They're certainly a lot better than the nonalcoholic beers of
           | yore. And it's also obvious that you're not drinking a
           | traditional beer. Undoubtedly, it has to do with the lack of
           | ethanol present, but I can't help but think it's got to do
           | with the process of producing them. Nonalcoholic beers, from
           | what I've noticed, are usually much less foamy than alcoholic
           | beer.
           | 
           | I will generally still drink alcoholic beer since I don't
           | seem to have alcoholism in me, but I think it's great that
           | people are being given options. When I was younger, I really
           | hated it when people would pressure me to drink or act like
           | I'm an alien for not wanting to drink, and nonalcoholic beer
           | is inconspicuous enough that people can drink socially
           | without the peculiar attitude. Although that attitude _seems_
           | to have largely gone away anyway.
        
             | postcynical wrote:
             | There's this Danish startup that claims they can put the
             | missing flavour back into the beer using their enzymes:
             | 
             | https://evodiabio.com/yops/
             | https://science.ku.dk/english/press/news/2022/researchers-
             | ma...
        
           | triceratops wrote:
           | Why drink grain juice when you could drink fruit juice?
        
         | joekrill wrote:
         | There's many occasions where I don't want to drink, but not
         | doing so can make things uncomfortable. It's unfortunate, but
         | there's lots of occasions where abstaining can make other
         | people uncomfortable, or cause them to give you a hard time, or
         | any number of other things. I would love to be able to take
         | something that allows me drink but with none of the side
         | effects, just to avoid potential uncomfortable situations.
         | Again, I'm not condoning the behavior and it's unfortunate that
         | this is how society is sometimes. But it would be nice to have
         | this option.
         | 
         | There's also people who have difficulty controlling their
         | drinking once they start. This would certainly help in those
         | scenarios.
         | 
         | Another example is a situation where a woman may be pregnant so
         | doesn't want to drink, but may not be far enough along that she
         | wants people to know. Not drinking would get people wondering,
         | but drinking could harm the fetus. I don't know if this gel
         | would make drinking safe in that scenario - but if it does,
         | that would be a great situation to use it in.
        
           | FredPret wrote:
           | If people are uncomfortable with you not drinking, that's
           | very much on them
        
             | joekrill wrote:
             | Agreed. And ideally that shouldn't matter. But in the real
             | world there are other consequences and side effects. Maybe
             | I don't want to make them uncomfortable. Maybe I just don't
             | want to deal with the nagging, "busting my chops", or the
             | questions about why I'm not drinking. Maybe I want to avoid
             | some preconceived notions certain people may have about
             | people who don't drink. So even if it's on them, there are
             | still personal reasons I may want to avoid the situation.
        
               | FredPret wrote:
               | People will take their cue from you as to how to respond.
               | If you act embarrassed about it, they'll react
               | accordingly. If it's no big deal to you, same thing for
               | them.
               | 
               | I quit cold turkey years ago. I was worried about the
               | same things. But even my most macho & hard-drinking
               | friends just accepted it without comment.
        
               | gwbas1c wrote:
               | I encountered a lot of peer pressure to drink when I was
               | in college. (I didn't drink much because a lot of alcohol
               | makes my stomach upset.)
               | 
               | Don't surround yourself with people who make you
               | uncomfortable. It's a lesson I realized as I got older:
               | It has little to do with drinking; but if the people
               | around you make you feel uncomfortable not drinking, then
               | you're around the wrong people.
        
               | FredPret wrote:
               | > Don't surround yourself with people who make you
               | uncomfortable.
               | 
               | I wish I learnt this at age 0. This goes for online life
               | as well.
        
           | zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
           | Stop giving in to peer pressure. You'll be happier.
        
           | hn72774 wrote:
           | Club soda with lime. No one knows there's not vodka in it but
           | you.
        
             | colecut wrote:
             | Club soda and bitters has been a recent goto
        
           | Tepix wrote:
           | > There's many occasions where I don't want to drink, but not
           | doing so can make things uncomfortable.
           | 
           | People don't care as much if/what others drink as you think.
        
         | emmanuel_1234 wrote:
         | From alcohol, I love:
         | 
         | - drinking it: I really enjoy the feeling of just ingesting
         | beer, wine or spirits, especially with friends or family
         | 
         | - having a nice buzz from it.
         | 
         | However, those two things are, for me, incompatible. If I start
         | drinking a little bit, I usually don't stop until I'm way
         | beyond the "nice buzz". As the joke goes, "one beer is not
         | enough, two beers are just enough, three beers really aren't
         | enough".
         | 
         | Having something that would allow me to keep drinking without
         | jeopardizing my body, my mind, and the day after would be a
         | huge game changer.
        
           | CaptainOfCoit wrote:
           | Sounds like maybe the "alcohol free"/"0.0%" beer (not really
           | 100% alcohol free) is something you should try. Tastes and
           | looks like beer, but doesn't come with the buzz (which is the
           | thing that your brain hooks into and uses to tell you it
           | isn't enough yet).
        
             | iamthirsty wrote:
             | > Tastes and looks like beer
             | 
             | I have tried almost every major non-alcoholic beer in the
             | U.S., and none of them truly taste exactly like beer.
        
               | pjot wrote:
               | There's a brand I've seen in stores called "Athletic" and
               | it's nearly indistinguishable
        
               | badgersnake wrote:
               | Over in the UK I think Adnams Ghost Ship 0.5% is the best
               | one commonly available that I've had. Most of them are
               | far too sweet.
        
           | swozey wrote:
           | Microdosing psilocybin (shrooms) is amazing at letting me go
           | out and just have 1-2 beers while still giving the slight
           | affect of a nice anxiety-free buzz. I'm what I'd call a
           | nervous drinker. I'm ADHD and sitting still can be rough for
           | me, so at bars I tend to drink a lot very fast because the
           | only fidgeting I can do without looking strange is .. cup to
           | face over and over.
           | 
           | Obviously not something everyone wants to do or can do, it's
           | legal for me, but it's great for basically taking my interest
           | in alcohol away after a beer or two. Microdosing is usually
           | 1/10th or less what a "normal" light dose would be (going
           | with 1-2g dose here, so 0.1/0.2). No
           | weird/visual/hallucination effects or anything like that.
           | 
           | You just feel a bit lighter and relaxed. Been a big game
           | changer for me since I go out all the time. A bunch of my
           | service industry friends and I do it and they've all started
           | drinking significantly less.
           | 
           | Naltrexone is great too but it's probably easier to get
           | someone to microdose than ask their doctor for that which is
           | unfortunate. You won't get a buzz with that, you'll just get
           | bored of drinking by your 2nd beer and move on to doing other
           | things which can also be nice at times.
        
         | Maximus9000 wrote:
         | Take this gel at the end of the night so that you don't have a
         | hangover the next day?
        
         | aredox wrote:
         | Alcohol is a solvent for many flavours. That's why you have a
         | lot of it in perfumes, and that's why alcohol-free drinks don't
         | taste as good as the originals. In Europe, we drink a lot of
         | alcohol with food exactly for that reason (wine dissolves the
         | fats of the sauce or just the meat and mixes and enhances the
         | taste).
         | 
         | I'd really like to enjoy it without any drunkenness afterwards
         | nor any effect on my health.
        
           | pavlov wrote:
           | Yeah, if there was a product that would let me enjoy real
           | wine but the effect of the alcohol would be similar to a 3%
           | mild beer, I would use that fairly often. A typical wine at
           | 11-12% is a bit too strong for many situations.
        
         | rfrey wrote:
         | The hardest part of reducing my alcohol consumption is that I
         | love red wine so much. The flavor, the aroma, the acidity,
         | everything. I have stopped drinking all alcohol except red wine
         | because of the health effects. I would be delighted to have a
         | way to drink wine without any intoxication.
        
           | testless wrote:
           | Red wine being healthy is a myth.
           | 
           | But misunderstood, see below...
        
             | 0xffff2 wrote:
             | GP is saying they have stopped drinking most alcohol (all
             | except red wine) because of the [negative] health effects.
        
             | rpmisms wrote:
             | It has health benefits. The alcohol in it is no better for
             | you than any other alcohol.
        
         | odiroot wrote:
         | To enjoy consuming alcoholic drinks without being intoxicated?
        
         | DennisP wrote:
         | It's great for spies. As I've learned from movies, it's
         | important for them to hold their booze better than their
         | sources.
        
       | circlefavshape wrote:
       | Something to sober you up if you're already drunk would be
       | amazing, but I don't think this will do that
        
         | aantix wrote:
         | Sulforaphane.
         | 
         | Take something like Broccomax - or eat lots of Brussels
         | sprouts, and broccoli.
        
           | zolbrek wrote:
           | Should I take it when I'm ready to sober up or before
           | drinking as well if I want to make sure I don't get too drunk
           | but still have a good buzz?
        
             | aantix wrote:
             | Take it a couple of hours before drinking.
             | 
             | You won't feel as drunk and will have less of a hangover.
        
               | zolbrek wrote:
               | Thanks, I'll give it a go.
        
               | voisin wrote:
               | What about all the other negative impacts though - like
               | liver impact and blood pressure. Isn't it better to just
               | moderate your drinking rather than drinking to excess and
               | then dialing back the feel of it with broccoli?
        
               | iamthirsty wrote:
               | Probably.
        
               | eps wrote:
               | An older method is to eat a couple of tablespoons of
               | butter 30 min before the first drink. Works quite well to
               | reduce the effects of alcohol.
        
               | lukan wrote:
               | Or any other food with lots of fat. The fat makes the
               | body absorb the alcohol slower.
               | 
               | And drinking lots of water just before sleeping greatly
               | reduces hangovers.
               | 
               | What also works, is drinking in moderation ..
        
         | cvdub wrote:
         | Agreed, not seeing many good use cases. It could be prescribed
         | to alcoholics who can't/won't stop drinking to help them taper
         | off alcohol, but people would just end up drinking more to
         | counter it.
         | 
         | The best use I can think of is for undercover agents to drink
         | heavily and avoid intoxication!
        
           | readthenotes1 wrote:
           | That's enough of a good use case! It would have made my
           | college years much better...
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | > Something to sober you up if you're already drunk would be
         | amazing ...
         | 
         | But it's the fun of alcohol!
         | 
         | What'd be amazing would be something that really works against
         | the headaches and/or prevent vomiting. Basically something for
         | the next day or even the next two days (when you get old, if
         | you party too hard it can take _two days_ to feel good again: I
         | hate it so at 50 I very rarely party hard anymore: maybe once a
         | year).
        
           | hylaride wrote:
           | Hangovers are a good part caused by by the body reacting to
           | the "damage" that alcohol does:                 - Alcohol
           | loosens the blood vessels, whereas a lot of the effects of a
           | hangover are caused by the body then "over-constricting" when
           | the aclohol goes away, causing headaches and nausea.  The
           | cause of the headache is similar for a brain-freeze from too
           | much ice cream causing the veins in your neck and throat to
           | constrict, though the brain-freeze goes away as you warm back
           | up.       - There's also the dehydration as alcohol throws
           | off the balance of water in your system as it makes you want
           | to pee more, but interferes with the body's ability to
           | actually absorb water.       - Alcohol causes your body to
           | pump out more "feel good" hormones, which then lead to a
           | crash later.
           | 
           | So the way to prevent a hangover is to not get drunk in the
           | first place, same as always. If you want to drink and limit
           | the effects of alcohol (including the initial "benefits")
           | then this has potential. It may prevent vomiting in the sense
           | that vomiting is your body trying to eject the poison as it's
           | building up faster than it can process it (eg when you're
           | already trashed an on the train to hangoverville).
           | 
           | However, people often tend to drink for the "good" effects
           | that this gel prevents. If what you want is alcohol's fun,
           | then you're going to need another cure (essentially an IV
           | drip, and drugs to replace the hormones and loosen your blood
           | vessels - all of which are not readily available for other
           | good reasons).
        
           | bradleyjg wrote:
           | > But it's the fun of alcohol!
           | 
           | For a while it is. But sometimes you don't want to keep being
           | drunk.
           | 
           | Maybe you want to drive home, or your childcare ends, or you
           | just have other things to do that day.
           | 
           | If I could just end the whole thing at will, including the
           | hangovers you mention, that would be ideal.
        
           | neves wrote:
           | I'd love to take one of these when I'm going home. There's no
           | use to keep absorving alcohol when I want to go to sleep.
        
           | voisin wrote:
           | I find marijuana to be the fun of alcohol without the impacts
           | you mention.
        
           | beeboobaa3 wrote:
           | > maybe once a year
           | 
           | you sure you didn't just lower your tolerance?
        
             | psunavy03 wrote:
             | Your tolerance naturally changes as you get older and the
             | hangovers last longer.
        
               | Arrath wrote:
               | Its cyclical. The tolerance for hangovers and the
               | recovery period went down (god do I hate it) therefore I
               | drink less, thus I have a lower tolerance for alcohol.
        
           | navaati wrote:
           | > But it's the fun of alcohol!
           | 
           | Meh, I like wine more and more and being drunk less and less,
           | one is seriously limiting the other :)
        
             | DennisP wrote:
             | I'm the same way with whisky. I might have to imitate the
             | professional tasters: just swirl and spit. Seems like a
             | travesty but less so than letting my collection gather dust
             | indefinitely.
        
           | felipemnoa wrote:
           | >>What'd be amazing would be something that really works
           | >>against the headaches and/or prevent vomiting.
           | 
           | If you start vomiting then you overdid it. Your body is
           | trying to save you from poisoning. To prevent the headaches
           | just drink lots of water.
        
           | somesortofthing wrote:
           | I have really awful genetics for drinking(I'm 23 and already
           | experience the thing you're describing with taking multiple
           | days to feel good again, and instead of physical symptoms I
           | get crushing depression) so I'd love to just take some of
           | this stuff before a night out to drink the same volume as
           | other people without having to deal with the aftereffects.
        
         | fluxist wrote:
         | Dihydromyricetin[1] can accomplish this remarkably effectively.
         | It's available on Amazon.
         | 
         | Also works great for hangovers.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3292407/
        
           | colechristensen wrote:
           | I learned about this and it does work in my experience, best
           | if taken both at the beginning and end of the night.
           | 
           | While it doesn't alleviate all of the hangover symptoms it
           | does nearly eliminate all of the most unpleasant ones.
        
           | manmal wrote:
           | Great suggestion. There is also Kislip, which seems to be
           | based on probiotics and, like DHM, also helps metabolize
           | acetaldehyde. Acetium (a Finnish product) also claims to
           | lower acetaldehyde, but that might be a localized effect
           | (mouth/nasopharynx + GI tract).
        
           | dynm wrote:
           | Just a warning to everyone: This effect doesn't seem to have
           | much scientific support beyond the cited paper. Other work
           | has followed up and was not able to replicate:
           | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8603706/.
        
           | losteric wrote:
           | Note the study involves injections. The oral route is subject
           | to digestion.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | disulfiram will do it ... in a more philosophical sense. also
         | known as antabuse.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disulfiram
         | 
         | (if you take it, you will get sick if you drink alcohol)
         | 
         | Personally, tequila works on me in a similar way when I smell
         | it.
        
           | dbbk wrote:
           | Naltrexone is a good alternative to this that doesn't make
           | you physically sick. It just dulls the effect to the point
           | where you kinda just get bored of drinking.
        
       | jawns wrote:
       | If you're an alcoholic, and your body is physically dependent on
       | alcohol consumption, would this allow you to satisfy your
       | physical cravings without the deleterious effects normally
       | associated with alcohol addiction? Kind of like how a nicotine
       | patch helps satisfy the physical addiction?
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | >> breaks down alcohol in the gastrointestinal tract without
         | harming the body.
         | 
         | Likely no. This stuff will destroy the alcohol before it enters
         | the bloodstream. So it sounds useful to stop people absorbing
         | more alcohol (pumping the stomach situations) but won't do much
         | for alcohol already in the blood and causing effects in the
         | body.
        
           | gus_massa wrote:
           | Woudn't people just consume more alcohol to compensate the
           | one destroyed by this invention? My guess is that some
           | persons drink until they are drunk, not until they took N
           | glasses of drinks.
        
         | sctb wrote:
         | That's exactly what benzodiazepines are for, but only for
         | short-term taper protocols as the dependence/withdrawal profile
         | over the long term is worse than alcohol. Medium-term can be
         | covered by gabapentin.
        
           | readthenotes1 wrote:
           | I know an alcoholic who was also addicted to gabapentin. It
           | didn't reduce his alcoholism, and even when he tried to stop
           | drinking, he would get stoned on the gabapentin (and was
           | largely unaware of his diminished state)
        
         | hn72774 wrote:
         | No, there would be a risk of dt's, seizures, and death.
         | 
         | Quitting alcohol requires medical supervision for those who are
         | deep into alcohol use disorder.
        
       | ginko wrote:
       | I wonder how that would affect the calories of the alcohol.
       | Apparently the ethanol gets broken down into acetic acid, which I
       | believe can't be digested further? Does that mean you also
       | wouldn't gain weight when drinking dry beer or wine?
       | 
       | EDIT: Apparently acetic acid _does_ have calories. Didn't know
       | that.
        
         | mft_ wrote:
         | Interesting question!
         | 
         | From this article[0] it seems ~60% of the calories in lager
         | come from the alcohol - presumably ~40% come from
         | carbohydrates. And from Google, acetic acid is 349 kcal / 100g,
         | versus pure ethanol at 700 kcal / 100g. So if this approach
         | converted 100% of alcohol to acetic acid, you'd drop the
         | calories from lager by ~30% overall. To your question, dry wine
         | or lower-carb beer would be proportionally even better.
         | 
         | The flip-side of this is perhaps consumption of too much acetic
         | acid! It's impossible to calculate potential toxicity without
         | understanding the strength of the acetic acid generated,
         | though.
         | 
         | [0]
         | https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331119759_Nutrition...
        
         | grujicd wrote:
         | > Apparently acetic acid _does_ have calories. Didn't know
         | that.
         | 
         | Calories are measured by burning the substance. While it very
         | precisely determines contained energy in the physics sense,
         | it's a question whether all that energy is used by digestion?
         | Especially if it's something the body treats as a toxin and
         | wants to remove as soon as possible?
        
       | gwbas1c wrote:
       | I honestly don't "get" why someone would use this? It doesn't
       | reverse intoxication, and it doesn't prevent alcohol from
       | entering the bloodstream.
       | 
       | I get that alcoholic drinks taste better than their non-alcoholic
       | counterparts (frozen margaritas are so much better than slush
       | puppies,) but this won't prevent the buzz / intoxication.
        
         | jonwinstanley wrote:
         | Agreed, something that can sober you up or reduce hangovers
         | would be incredible.
        
         | Tepix wrote:
         | Just one example: Closing a business deal in China or Japan
         | might require you to drink a lot of alcohol.
        
           | JohnMakin wrote:
           | This is precisely the first thing I thought of.
        
         | aeturnum wrote:
         | Depending on the time of action it could be very useful in
         | addressing the "lag" in alcohol hitting your system. If someone
         | is drinking heavily, they regularly reach an uncomfortable
         | level of intoxication before all the alcohol in their stomach
         | has been absorbed. This could help folks in that situation.
        
       | teekert wrote:
       | Alcohol is a drug, it can be addictive and it's a carcinogen.
       | Sure fermented stuff is nice but you just shouldn't have too
       | much. Just alternate a drink and water and don't drink much. Who
       | needs a shitty gel in their body just to consume more poison?
       | Show some discipline and restraint, tale good care of your body.
        
         | shepherdjerred wrote:
         | Have you ever struggled with addiction (food, drink, drugs,
         | media, games, sleep, porn etc.)?
         | 
         | I can't provide a study, but anecdotally I suspect nearly
         | everyone does.
         | 
         | > Show some discipline and restraint
         | 
         | This is such unhelpful, unsympathetic advice.
        
           | try_the_bass wrote:
           | > This is such unhelpful, unsympathetic advice.
           | 
           | I think writing this advice off as unhelpful is actually more
           | harmful than offering it in the first place. I think this is
           | very real and very helpful advice. Is it hard to follow?
           | Speaking from experience: absolutely.
           | 
           | Self-control is like a muscle: exercise it frequently, and it
           | gets stronger. It also gets tired and needs rest, and it
           | atrophies with disuse.
           | 
           | And like exercise, it's almost always beneficial. Even folks
           | with physical disabilities see very real benefits from
           | exercise, even when it's hard and painful! I used to live
           | next door to a man who walked with a cane and very obviously
           | struggled to go up and down stairs... And yet any time I
           | would offer him help, he would refuse, because he knew the
           | effort would keep him as mobile and active as he could be,
           | given his circumstances--and do accept that help would
           | actually harm him in the long run by accelerating the decline
           | in his abilities. I doubt I would have his level of
           | discipline were I in his situation, and to this day I envy
           | that of him.
           | 
           | I think going so far as to say "telling someone to exercise
           | self-control is unhelpful/unsympathetic" is exactly analogous
           | to telling someone exercise is harmful. Not "too much
           | exercise is harmful", but "any exercise is harmful", which is
           | obviously untrue.
           | 
           | I'll be the first to acknowledge that humans are innately
           | lazy, and that exercise is hard/boring/inconvenient/whatever.
           | However, we do no one justice by giving them reasons to
           | excuse that laziness. Justifying a lack of internal
           | effort/ability should be and explanation of last resort, not
           | the baseline.
           | 
           | Put differently: very few people are physically incapable of
           | doing a pushup (or whatever other basic exercise you want to
           | reference) due to actual physical limitations. Most who
           | cannot simply haven't put in the work to reach the point
           | where they _can_.
           | 
           | [E] This turned out longer than I anticipated. It turns out I
           | feel strongly about this, and feel like this is one of the
           | most toxic aspects of the society I feel like I inhabit.
           | People should be encouraged to push their abilities, not
           | given excuses not to. It's all too easy to accept those
           | excuses as truth, and this prevents us all from reaching our
           | highest potential. This feels like a net harm to society and
           | a driver of very real inequality
        
             | KittenInABox wrote:
             | > Self-control is like a muscle: exercise it frequently,
             | and it gets stronger. It also gets tired and needs rest,
             | and it atrophies with disuse.
             | 
             | Addiction is not a matter of self-control.
        
               | deelowe wrote:
               | Few things are. The world would be a better place if
               | people would try to help each other more.
        
           | vl wrote:
           | This gel, if anything, will enable addiction.
        
         | reactordev wrote:
         | Not everyone can self regulate or their body isn't the
         | dependable vehicle yours is.
         | 
         | This is for those people. Enjoy yourself and keep switching
         | between white claws and water.
        
       | jebarker wrote:
       | I honestly wonder whether people would drink alcohol if there
       | weren't intoxicating effects. What I mean is, does anyone really
       | believe that alcohol is pleasant to drink or is that purely a
       | trick of the mind/body to get you to satisfy the craving?
        
         | shepherdjerred wrote:
         | Plenty of people drink alcohol in moderation, e.g. only having
         | 1-2 drinks at a social event, pairing a while for dinner,
         | trying a new cocktail, etc.
        
           | jebarker wrote:
           | Sure, but maybe it's a really powerful drug that has a small
           | effective dose for some people?
        
             | shepherdjerred wrote:
             | I have known some people to have an absurdly low tolerance
             | (or at least act drunk after two standard drinks), but I
             | don't think it's that common.
             | 
             | I do have plenty of friends who drink in moderation simply
             | because they enjoy the taste of beer/wine and almost never
             | get drunk (they might drink enough to be drunk once a
             | year).
             | 
             | I think the comparison is most understandable when you
             | compare alcohol to caffeine. Some people drink coffee for
             | the sake of the caffeine, but some also just genuinely
             | enjoy the taste/social aspect (hence why decaf exists).
        
               | khazhoux wrote:
               | Don't know how common it is, but my tolerance is super
               | low.
               | 
               | Even a single sip of wine, and I'll start to feel
               | pressure in temples. One full glass and my head movement
               | -> visual perception latency will be noticeable, and my
               | words will start a bit getting in the order wrong. That
               | one glass will also hit me like a sleeping pill within an
               | hour. And if it's beer or red wine, I'll enjoy itchy
               | arms, chest, and legs for a couple of hours.
               | 
               | So partially a reaction to alcohol (the sleepiness for
               | sure) and partially an allergic reaction to
               | tannins/hops/etc.
               | 
               | I love a riesling or a mint mojito, but I keep to
               | probably one drink every few months... and then regret it
               | all over again.
               | 
               | On the other hand, there's so many alcoholics in my
               | extended family and my best friends growing up, that I
               | consider my body's rejection of alcohol to be a strong
               | contributor to me being successful in life and work.
        
         | sodapopcan wrote:
         | I certainly don't speak for everyone but I certainly drank for
         | the effects. I do like the flavour of beer but it was all about
         | the effects. I could never have just one or two (which is why I
         | no longer drink).
         | 
         | Again, I don't speak for everyone. I do know people who drink
         | frequently without ever getting drunk, but obviously even one
         | drink has _some_ effect.
        
         | swatcoder wrote:
         | Fermentation, distillation, and aging can all create unique and
         | incredibly rich flavors that may be very compelling on their
         | own or as complements to other flavors in food and drink.
         | 
         | Perhaps you haven't tried very many and haven't run into any
         | you like, but they're sure out there. From a culinary
         | perspective, it's no accident that wines and beers and spirits
         | represent enormous industries around the world and have done so
         | for centuries.
         | 
         | If it was all just about getting tipsy or drunk, you'd expect
         | there to be just a few "winners" of the market rather than the
         | incredible variety we seem to have instead.
        
           | jebarker wrote:
           | I drink, probably too much, and feel like I enjoy the flavors
           | of many different drinks. But I don't think that's evidence
           | that it's not really just a chemical dependence. I certainly
           | remember there was a time when I didn't enjoy the flavors I
           | believe I do now.
           | 
           | Your point about variety is good but, again playing devil's
           | advocate, maybe that's necessary to keep drinking socially
           | acceptable and sustain the illusion that there's more to it
           | than just addiction?
           | 
           | The most convincing argument though is that we do enjoy the
           | flavors of fermented things that aren't intoxicating.
        
         | abtinf wrote:
         | I enjoy peaty Islay scotches. I can sip a single serving over
         | an hour, savoring the flavor, with zero intoxicating effects.
        
         | abtinf wrote:
         | Non-alcoholic beer is an entire product category and popular in
         | the Middle East. Russians have a fermented bread drink called
         | Kvass that is <1% alcohol.
        
           | abtinf wrote:
           | Oh, and then there's kombucha.
        
         | aeturnum wrote:
         | It's both right? Alcohol is a dopaminergic[1] in all amounts.
         | Your brain, to some degree, likes you drinking (which may be
         | offset by side effects). A much smaller group of people
         | genuinely enjoy the taste and physical experience of drinking
         | alcohol. Non-alcoholic taste-matched substitutes are common.
         | 
         | I strongly suspect that, if alcohol was banned, you would see a
         | bigger market for taste-matched "mocktails" with the same
         | sharp, chemical undertones. However, there's no market now
         | because moderate drinkers can just get a drink and people who
         | don't like they taste don't want them.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6826820/
        
           | abtinf wrote:
           | > no market
           | 
           | Mocktail mixers are a small but readily available product,
           | e.g. Seedlip.
        
             | aeturnum wrote:
             | Oh! That's great. The mocktails I've seen are generally
             | complex, well-crafted drinks that are missing the bite that
             | makes alcoholic drinks so satisfying to sip. I guess I need
             | to check out more mocktails.
        
         | noirbot wrote:
         | It was mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but alcohol is an
         | amazing chemical for absorbing other potent flavors. It's why
         | it's commonly used for herb extracts and medicines. Part of
         | what I like about many alcoholic drinks is they have pungent
         | flavors that are hard to find elsewhere. An herbal liquor is
         | going to often have much stronger flavor of the herbs than
         | you'd get from making a tea or a soda.
         | 
         | There's also more diversity in the options because it's a
         | natural preservative. Much easier for a store to stock niche-
         | flavored spirits in small quantities when they functionally
         | never go bad, which in turn helps keep a market for niche
         | products that wouldn't exist if they needed steady high demand.
         | Even something as popular as Fernet Branca doesn't really have
         | a flavor equal in any other beverage class.
        
       | adfm wrote:
       | Jim Koch, founder and brewer of Sam Adams, says that he mixes a
       | teaspoon of bakers yeast (not sure which) and yogurt to break
       | down the alcohol before it hits the bloodstream and has been
       | doing it for years if not decades.
       | 
       | https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/07/10/327854051/al...
        
         | pavel_lishin wrote:
         | Doesn't yeast _produce_ alcohol?
         | 
         | edit: ah, I read TFA:
         | 
         | > _" Yeast can degrade ethanol," says microbiologist Benjamin
         | Tu of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. "But
         | they love other sugars -- glucose, maltose -- more. When those
         | sugars are around, the cells turn off the genes needed for
         | alcohol degradation."_
        
         | joshuahaglund wrote:
         | One guy says it works. The rest of the article is about a small
         | experiment that showed otherwise. Then it quotes experts who
         | explain why it doesn't work and called it an urban legend.
        
         | somesortofthing wrote:
         | Hypothetically, if the yeast could work fast enough(I'm 99%
         | sure it can't unless he's leaving the mixture in a sealed
         | container for a few months before drinking it) wouldn't this
         | result in straight vinegar
        
       | patall wrote:
       | Reminds me of Ro15-4513, an antagonist of alcohol that stop (some
       | of) the symptoms of intoxication.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ro15-4513
        
       | James_K wrote:
       | Alcohol-free drinks already exist. They're a much easier sell
       | than alcoholic drinks + some weird gel.
        
         | _djo_ wrote:
         | Maybe, but so what? If this enables people to have a few drinks
         | after work in the evening and be fully sober for work the next
         | day, I'm all for it.
         | 
         | Also, anything that can rapidly break down alcohol in the body
         | will help as a medical treatment for alcohol overdoses.
        
         | hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
         | This seems to be useful for people who are either allergic to
         | alcohol or who are trying to keep up or competitively pressure
         | others into intoxication. Otherwise, it would be wiser to just
         | avoid EtOH that has no safe lower intake threshold and is
         | conspicuously expensive.
        
       | hi-v-rocknroll wrote:
       | Spy and drink competition ringer toolkit. Back it up with ~25
       | year old hangover prophylaxis (2 before + 2 with ea drink)
       | https://www.ru21.com/.
        
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       (page generated 2024-05-14 23:01 UTC)