[HN Gopher] Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop rea...
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Book people think they know why 9-year-olds stop reading for fun
Author : petethomas
Score : 147 points
Date : 2024-05-05 23:57 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (slate.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (slate.com)
| catchmeifyoucan wrote:
| Growing up - we had a lot of programs externally to encourage us
| to read. I wonder if kids still have the same kind of things
|
| For example, we had things like a Six Flags reading program,
| Pizza Hut Book It for free pizza, and hand picked Texas
| Bluebonnet Books. We also had book fairs.
| animal531 wrote:
| I think the big problem with reading is that it's much slower
| compared to other media.
|
| Add in the fact that you can also only read for so long before
| your eyes get tired and then people just naturally veer away from
| it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I gravitate to text forums because watching/listening is too
| slow. Videos/images are good for instruction on how to do
| something though.
| secstate wrote:
| This. I find myself tremendously bored watching most videos
| online these days, scrubbing through to find things that are
| of interest. There's just so much filler and even when it's
| not, the information density is very low.
|
| In the meantime, along with reading, I also have longreads in
| my RSS reader, so every evening I get a few fantastic long
| form online articles and feel pretty well connected to what's
| going on.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| If you read more than a little, it's much faster compared to
| other media.
|
| True about eyes getting tired, though: I try to take a break
| every few hours.
|
| > _If I wanted to read, I 'd go to school_ --B-H
| soylentcola wrote:
| Nice Mike Judge ref there...
|
| Agreed about being faster than a lot of other media - at
| least in terms of density. Also, the tired eyes thing can be
| a bonus too. For years I had trouble falling asleep at night
| and I'd stay up later because I didn't like going to bed
| until I knew I would conk out immediately.
|
| Now I get in bed and read about a half hour or hour before I
| want to be asleep. It gives me something to focus on while
| relaxing and when my eyes get too tired or my mind starts to
| wander, I know it's time to sleep.
| cjf101 wrote:
| Seriously. This is why I don't like how much knowledge is
| being locked up in video platforms. I can get what I need to
| know from text so much faster than video unless the knowledge
| in question is inherently 3d/visual.
| octobus2021 wrote:
| I disagree with "much slower" but I do agree that it's
| different. It's not about having tired eyes (what do you use to
| watch videos?), it's about shortening attention span (you get
| bored and want to switch to something else). Long attention
| span is good, short attention span is bad. This is why reading
| books (long form) is better than reading Twitter or Instagram
| (short form). And this is why getting kids to continue to read
| is important.
| inasio wrote:
| I feel the opposite way, at least from the point of view of
| absorbing information. I often have a hard time with podcasts
| and often youtube videos because I feel I could have read the
| info there in a few minutes vs watching/listening to something
| for much longer
| chankstein38 wrote:
| I agree but think that's different. That's probably a 10min-
| read kind of article versus a couple-hour-long book. I agree
| with the parent comment that reading is just slower. All of
| the blabbering people do in podcasts and in youtube videos to
| draw out the length feels like it ends up in books too but
| it's harder to skip because you don't really know when the
| important stuff happens. I just turn youtube videos and
| podcasts up to 2x speed then I don't really have to worry
| about it.
| janalsncm wrote:
| If you crank the speed up 2x you'll also be speeding
| through the important parts. I feel like all of this drive
| towards AI "summarization" is really framing the problem
| incorrectly. I want all of the filler removed, and just
| keep the necessary bits.
| janalsncm wrote:
| We live in an attention economy but the content that demands
| our attention is increasingly low value. Often the vast
| majority of podcast content and YouTube video content could
| be simplified to maybe 10% of what is there. I have
| unfortunately seen this in some of the nonfiction books I
| read as well, which tend to spend way too much time on filler
| and fluff than actually advancing the main points. This
| wastes my time and irritates me. (Stuart Russell's most
| recent book is majority garbage.)
| saghm wrote:
| Not only that, but reading lets you easily jump around to
| refresh yourself on other parts if you see something
| reference it much more easily, and you can choose your exact
| comfortable pace without having to stretch or squeeze the
| source material unnaturally.
|
| I have a recurring habit of glossing over names I don't
| recognize when first reading them in a news article and then
| will frequently need to jump back to find where they were
| initially referenced when they get mentioned again only with
| their last name. While this can be a little annoying when
| reading, it would be far worse in a video; I can't imagine
| trying to scrub back to the point where someone first was
| mentioned. At best, the video might have captions (which I'll
| always have turned on), but it's a lot harder to look at a
| caption and remember exactly which information came before it
| and which came after because the text isn't all visible at
| once.
| Detrytus wrote:
| On the other hand, reading a novel can take you a few days,
| but watching a movie based on the same novel takes 90
| minutes.
| AndrewDucker wrote:
| And contains vastly less information while doing so.
| guestbest wrote:
| Also the hands get tired holding the book open for long periods
| havblue wrote:
| I'm not sure if some people think that audiobooks "don't
| count", but I think they're the only alternative when you have
| a heavy schedule and a long commute. Plus you can adjust the
| speed of the playback as needed. So slowness shouldn't be a
| problem to put on in the car if your kids are ready to read
| chapter books.
| Simulacra wrote:
| I think social media, TikTok style short videos etc. are
| training young people to have very short attention spans. If it
| doesn't continually provide a Dopamine hit they quit.
| nottorp wrote:
| > you can also only read for so long before your eyes get tired
|
| I'd say you need some eye correction then. Ever since I got
| glasses, getting tired by reading means it's time for a visit
| to the optometrist to update my lenses.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| This is not a bad thing. Kids shouldn't even be exposed to the
| mind altering dopamine tsunami that is modern media, Youtube,
| TikTok, Instagram, etc.
| randcraw wrote:
| I think the bigger difference is that reading a book allows you
| to stop, anytime, and think. No other medium allows this. When
| the story takes an unexpected turn or the author makes a subtle
| point, in a book you have time to reflect and let it sink in.
| That's precious, especially in a world where all other media
| has evolved to overwhelm you with oversimplified pap intended
| to prevent independent thought. Don't think, just react. But
| with a book, _you_ control where your focus goes, and nobody
| else.
| microflash wrote:
| > I think the big problem with reading is that it's much slower
| compared to other media.
|
| Speed is subjective. I read way faster than consuming the same
| thing with audio or video. Reading also gives me opportunity to
| wander at a pace I'm comfortable with.
| curtisblaine wrote:
| Personal experience: when I was a kid, I instinctively knew when
| a book tried to "teach" me something or instill some world view
| and I immediately know the intention and found that boring. The
| really exciting books were those that either didn't try to teach
| anything or those that didn't make it so obvious. Might it be
| that the contemporary literature for children is constantly
| trying to push an educational agenda and kids instinctively
| despise that (as I did)?
| nottorp wrote:
| > when a book tried to "teach" me something or instill some
| world view and I immediately know the intention and found that
| boring
|
| Entertainment with a message is fucking boring no matter the
| form. Movies are no better in this respect.
|
| Unless they're done by a genius but then you won't even notice
| the message.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Before I looked at the article I guessed it was because schools
| are making reading as un-fun as possible
|
| That's why I stopped reading for fun, probably when I was 15 or
| so. Seems they've just accelerated it
|
| Sure enough, that seems to be their guess too. Maybe our school
| systems kinda suck
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| Agreed, at least in my experience in the US we are conditioned
| from a young age to associate reading with tedium and monotony.
| When you have to 'read along with the class', stop after every
| chapter to write an essay, hyper-analyze every sentence until
| all the fun of discovery is sucked out, and generally be in an
| unpleasant and uncomfortable environment as you do it, you will
| over time associate the activity in general with those negative
| aspects and avoid it- despite the activity itself being
| potentially very enjoyable in a different context
| RecycledEle wrote:
| When you can read for fun, it's fun.
|
| When your teacher criticizes you for not reading the boring book
| he/she ordered you to read, you stop enjoying reading and stop
| reading.
|
| It's the teachers' faults.
| barfbagginus wrote:
| Not sure about that. I would read for fun instead of reading
| the assigned reading. The teacher would get mad. I'd continue
| to ignore them and continue reading my book.
|
| So you can't just blame the teacher. If the books give you
| something essential, you'll turn to them to escape a harsh
| reality.
| coldtea wrote:
| Kids read 50x as much at times teachers were even more strict
| and critical of them, so clearly it's not that.
|
| The mass availability of low effort digital entertainment
| options is what made the difference
| nerdjon wrote:
| 100% this.
|
| School largely ruined my interest in reading until I became an
| adult and re-found it.
|
| Being regularly told to read boring books, of course any
| interest in doing it casually was going to go out the Window.
|
| Sure there is value in needing to read certain things from an
| academic standpoint, Beowulf is a good example. But there was
| zero reason I needed to read "The Outsiders" when we just
| watched the movie after reading it anyways.
|
| Just because something is a classic, doesn't mean we have to
| consume it in its original form to get the meaning.
|
| Instead fill the library with a diverse collection of books,
| let the kid choose what they want to read, don't rush them, and
| importantly if it just isn't working let them move on to a new
| book.
|
| Side note:
|
| I know some people are going to groan at this. But seriously,
| books based on video games can be a fantastic gateway towards
| actually caring about reading. It is how I re-discovered by
| interest in reading as an adult.
| johnneville wrote:
| Required reading of books I couldn't relate to played a big
| role in me stopping reading for fun but I don't place that
| blame on my teachers for it. I doubt they had the freedom to
| choose which books we were assigned or whether we were assigned
| books at all.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| _When your teacher criticizes you for not reading the boring
| book he /she ordered you to read, you stop enjoying reading and
| stop reading._
|
| I've read more books than most people, I think. I certainly was
| in the top percentile by the time I was 18.
|
| I never once read a book start-to-finish that a teacher
| assigned to me. When I had a book on my desk that I went out of
| my way to find at the library on one side and then some random
| book my teacher thought was good on the other side, I picked my
| book every time. I'd half-heartedly skim through their book and
| struggle my way through reading quizzes. The only saving graces
| were Cliff's Notes, film versions, or if the teacher outright
| read us the book out loud.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| At least in our school district, this is not how its done in
| elementary school. Teachers don't assign books. Either it's
| completely free choice, or fiction/non fiction, or genre (e.g.
| mystery).
|
| When I last read about this, it was blamed on 4th grade being
| the time when you shift from reading just to read, into reading
| to learn.
| octobus2021 wrote:
| Don't know why this is on HN but anyways.
|
| My youngest will be 9 soon. Finding books for him is pain. I
| started trying more in the last few weeks, grabbing more or less
| random things from my local library (beginning chapter books,
| chapter books). Most of them are series, he liked a few (Galaxy
| Zack, Time Jumpers, Desmond Cole books), did not like others
| (Magic Tree House, something called Byte, Code Breakers, and
| really anything else I gave him). He mostly outgrew Geronimo
| Stilton books.
|
| They do have book fairs at school and we always go, but we rarely
| buy anything as it's mostly gifts. We're trying to get book from
| libraries as opposed to buy them.
|
| They do have an awesome library at school and he spends a few
| hours per week there and I see that he's taking some books from
| there, but it's mostly Captain Underpants, Stick Dog, and other
| comics.
|
| I absolutely DESPISE Dan Pilkey's books (Captain Underpants and
| Stick Dog) as well as My Weird School (and other Dan Gutman's
| products), they really dumb things down and basically lead kids
| away from "regular" (ie long-form) books. I my opinion they can
| lead to behavior issues in kids, however it's possible that kids
| simply start reading them during that period when hormones start
| kicking in.
|
| I have a bunch of books from DK Publishing (coffee table
| encyclopedias) and leave them an frequented areas of the house,
| and notice that kids check them up every once in a while, at
| least that's something. They are designed for people with
| decreased attention span, if you want to learn about a subject,
| you read a page or two and you're good.
|
| My older kids stopped reading a lot around that time (~10yo),
| mostly after reading My Weird School and Captain Underpants and
| similar crap.
|
| Older kids did go through the entire Lemony Snicket series though
| (way before NetFlix series came up) so that's something.
|
| My 8yo has an iPad from school (we were forced to get one from
| school when he did kindergarten remote) but his time is very
| strictly controlled, and it's only for studying (no games). He
| does have access to an old XBox but only on weekends and for a
| limited time. He will not have a smart phone for a long time,
| that's where we lost our older kids (around 13).
|
| So yeah, it's a major problem...
| tsycho wrote:
| I agree, and have the same problem.
|
| What books did you end up liking for 9 year olds?
| octobus2021 wrote:
| Just as I said, Galaxy Zack series (he must have been 7 at
| the time though), Time Jumpers (fairly recently, there's only
| 4 of them and I don't know if the author will write more),
| Desmond Cole (about ghosts). But that's pretty much all for
| the last 1+ years... I'm trying some of the "Scooby-Doo"
| books, not comics but regular chapter books, and he seems to
| read them at least. I'm going to try more "grown up" books
| (just picked up Class Dismissed, it's a winner of some prize
| or whatever), we'll see how it goes.
|
| But it's honestly really frustrating. I'm older (grew up in
| the 80s) and we read MUCH more, and I think it's important.
|
| Do you know of any resources/discussions I can look
| up/participate in?
| sn9 wrote:
| Mensa surprisingly has some good age-appropriate book lists
| linked at the bottom of this page:
| https://www.mensaforkids.org/achieve/excellence-in-reading/
|
| (At that age, I was a huge _Animorphs_ fan, but some
| parents might not be comfortable with the violence and
| gore.)
| octobus2021 wrote:
| I had no idea Mensa did this, I will give this a try. I'm
| not sure he's up to all of these, but we'll try and see.
| 392 wrote:
| When I was that age I read basically nothing but Hardy Boys
| books. Also Alex Rider books and Harry Potter, all out of
| order.
| grepLeigh wrote:
| Some of these might be less interesting to a boy at that age,
| but here are the books/authors I loved around 9 (lots of
| talking animals, magic, and adventure/detective plots):
|
| Garth Nix Sharon Creech Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark Jane
| Yolan David Clement-Davies E. L. Konigsburg Louis Sachar Avi
| Brian Jacques Louise Erdich Edward Bloor Susan Fletcher "Reader
| Beware, You Choose the Scare" Goosebumps (like Choose Your Own
| Adventure but more modern at the time).
|
| I grew into the kind of avid reader that still reads 50+ books
| a year. My Mom didn't try to control what I read, even if it
| was complete junk.
|
| I also adored fact books like the coffee tables you mentioned.
| I remember having a pulpy "100,000 weird facts" book, both
| covers torn off because it was used so much. This was before
| Wikipedia.
| octobus2021 wrote:
| (I'm going to assume you meant "interesting to a boy as
| opposed to a girl". If I'm incorrect my apologies).
|
| I only have boys so do not have personal experience but I
| read/heard that girls do and will continue to read more than
| boys at any age, and the gap is getting worse starting around
| that time (7-8-9). I do think that some books are directed at
| girls, but I do see a lot of books directed at boys too
| (though not recently, Hardy Boys was a loooong time ago).
| It's just boys are less interested regardless. Not really
| sure what to do about that honestly...
| pomian wrote:
| From personal experience I think don't rush it and worry about
| it. Reading gets more fun - perhaps because it is more of an
| individual understanding - (you read alone and to yourself),
| after grade 4 even better - grade 5 and 6. I would suggest some
| 'classic' adventure stories: most books by Andre Norton - the
| time trader series for example; Jim kjergaard - Big Red, later
| on Zane Grey. Good luck. Have fun with those kids!
| octobus2021 wrote:
| My 8yo partially dislikes Geronimo Stilton books because
| they're "too old" (they started in 2000s and are now mostly
| done publishing the new ones). The books you mentioned were
| from mid-20th century :)
| squigz wrote:
| > My older kids stopped reading a lot around that time (~10yo),
| mostly after reading My Weird School and Captain Underpants and
| similar crap.
|
| Have you considered just being happy your kids are reading
| stuff they enjoy? If I picked up on this sort of thing from my
| parents, I probably would have been less inclined to read
| myself...
| hjej wrote:
| If it's painful to you, you're doing it wrong. At 8 you should
| get him to the library and let him chose himself what books he
| wants to read. Also, you don't have to like the books he
| choses. You despising his book choice is irrelevant.
| octobus2021 wrote:
| If I just let him do what he wants he just plays on iPads or
| computers in the library (iPads have bunch of games
| installed, computers do not have games but you can obviously
| play Web-based stuff etc). He doesn't care much about books
| unfortunately. It's my job as a parent to make sure he does
| read something (I'm trying to find something he likes and
| something that's more of a long form as opposed to a comic).
| I do realize that the more I pressure him the less he likes
| it but I'm doing my best to find balance.
|
| As for choice of books, both Dan Pilkey and Dan Gutman are
| considered controversial authors and a lot of parents feel
| uneasy about their kids reading their books. Check parents'
| reviews on goodreads or any other site, you'll find plenty of
| negative reviews, it's not just me.
| piva00 wrote:
| From reading reviews of Dav Pilkey's books in Goodreads I
| didn't see anything like you describe, is it getting banned
| by the same fundamentalist Christian parents attacking
| public libraries in the USA or something?
|
| Reviews are pretty good, most books hover on 4+ ratings.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Don 't know why this is on HN but anyways_
|
| Well, for starters because HN is not just for programming and
| startups, things are on HN because they're upvoted (or sometime
| because it's some YC promotion), and anything that tingles our
| intellectual curiosity will do (it's even in the site's
| guidelines).
| wiredfool wrote:
| Look at Ursula Vernon/T Kingfisher (at least the kid/YA focused
| ones). Danny Dragonbreath might be the right age range for the
| youngest (text + cartoon), and Minor Mage, Illuminations and
| Wizards Guide to Defensive Baking would be slightly older
| (chapter book level).
|
| I'd hold off on the fairy tale (dark. weird) and romance ones
| (paladins) for a few years yet...
|
| Mine have gone through Paolini (Eragon), Sanderson (all of
| them. damn he writes a lot), Wings of Fire (Tui Sutherland --
| Cute, chapters, skews younger)., Scott Westerfield
| (Leviathian).
| bart_spoon wrote:
| I think I got into reading the most when I hit about 3rd or 4th
| grade. I think 8-9 years is when the reading possibilities
| really open up for kids. Its around that time I and many of my
| friends got into Redwall and Animorphs, and within a few years
| Harry Potter and books like the Black Cauldron.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Consider an activity that requires reading. For example, my
| 8-year-old plays "Zelda, Tears of the Kingdom," which involves
| a lot of reading. She gets stuck and then Googles hints.
|
| Remember: All children are different. I have 3 kids, and their
| interest level and approach to reading is very different. My
| oldest loved being read to starting around 6 months, and we
| started getting into chapter books when she was 5-6. My other
| two wouldn't sit still for books until around 18 months, and my
| almost-6-year-old doesn't have the attention span for a chapter
| book.
| trimblent wrote:
| If you want your kids to read books then they should see you
| reading books.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| If my attention was in a book, I'd be looking up to find one on
| the roof, one trailing blood and one packing pencils into the
| toilet.
|
| I'd also not be cooking or cleaning or spending the 1000th hour
| on the phone with the kids insurance provider. This between
| activities, assisting with 4-6 hours of homework, working, etc.
|
| Reading typically came out of sleep time.
|
| source: father of 5
| wiredfool wrote:
| Reading to kids every night early on helps. Not being pressured
| to read stupid crap in school helps. "You can get a library
| card once you learn to read" helped. Piles of books lying
| around helps. Older brothers reading a lot helps, especially
| for reading recommendations.
|
| (Father of 3, youngest is 14 now. after a while, the biggest
| problem is keeping them in books they haven't read)
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| I can only speak to my own personal experience, but I was a
| voracious reader as a child and then sorta just... stopped. The
| longer life went on, the more I was instructed to ignore or hide
| my personal feelings and so I just didn't find the characters in
| the books for my age group, who were largely written by women, to
| be relatable. There was as large a stretch between the main
| characters' behavior and what I was taught to do as there was
| between the real world and Mount Doom. I devoured the entire non-
| fiction section at my library in the historical and scientific
| sections by the time I was 10, and then just stopped going
| because there wasn't a point. None of the books were for me.
|
| I've made attempts to get back into reading from time to time,
| but I always go into the more rigorous non-fiction areas. I
| picked up a Brandon Sanderson book and wanted to throw the damned
| thing against a wall because of how juvenile the narration was.
| It felt like a very poor apeing of HHTG or Discworld narration
| without any of the wit.
| voidpointercast wrote:
| A lot of the same for me, down to reading silly non-fiction
| books just to read _something_ as a child. This has become
| nearly vestigial as I 've gotten older.
|
| I'm curious what books you felt were 'for' you?
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Books like Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, Brave New World,
| 1984, Animal House, Treasure Island, The Lord of the Flies,
| The Old Man and the Sea, etc. made much more sense to me than
| any of the Judy Bloom style books that are so prevalent. The
| last of those books I enjoyed was "How to Eat Fried Worms,"
| and then, that only resonated with me because we were forced
| to participate in a school book dressup day and I realized I
| could coat crunchy chinese noodles with chocolate and bring
| them to class.
|
| I was a kid of the 80s and 90s. I grew up outside. I played
| rough and got hurt and then played rough again. I explored.
| My parents existed to feed me, clothe me, and yell at me for
| not achieving enough. Any book depicting a parent who sat
| their child down to give them sage advice about life was
| completely foreign to my experience.
| gknoy wrote:
| I am not sure if you've already experienced-and-disliked
| his work, but may I recommend Neal Stephenson? I have
| always appreciated his style of prose, and the way he
| describes characters. He writes in a nerdy way that I can't
| quite explain, and I always trust that he will weave
| separate-seeming narratives together in a way that is
| satisfying (even if I am often dissatisfied at the
| _endings_ of his books).
|
| Everyone points to Snow Crash (which I liked too), but
| recently I also really enjoyed REAMDE and the first half of
| Termination Shock (I haven't finished it yet). I love the
| way he describes things. I'd like to say that I could read
| + enjoy anything he writes on any subject, but for some
| reason I didn't like his Baroque Cycle books (but don't
| understand why not).
|
| Also big recommendation for Terry Pratchett. The books all
| seem silly on the surface but usually have some incisive
| commentary on wider social issues, as well as being filled
| with references and humor, subtle and un-subtle. Bonus,
| they are also a lot shorter than Stephenson's. ;)
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| > I was a kid of the 80s and 90s. I grew up outside. I
| played rough and got hurt and then played rough again. I
| explored. My parents existed to feed me, clothe me, and
| yell at me for not achieving enough. Any book depicting a
| parent who sat their child down to give them sage advice
| about life was completely foreign to my experience.
|
| You might like Cormac McCarthy's "All the Pretty Horses"
| [0]. The prose style is idiosyncratic, but also arguably
| his most accessible. It's about a 16 year old crossing over
| into Mexico and with little else but the clothes on his
| back and love for horses, but not "juvenile" --- if
| anything the author elevates the teen's stumbles into love,
| adventure, and heartbreak, into a grand vision of the
| American frontier.
|
| [0]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Pretty_Horses_(novel)
| com2kid wrote:
| Here are some authors to try out instead, biased towards
| Science Fiction -
|
| Greg Bear - Amazing science fiction author who builds
| incredible far future worlds. He is asking questions like "what
| will humanity be like 10k years in the future".
|
| Charles Stross - First off, wonderful characters. His Laundry
| Files series is like "what is a 1990s geek, complete with a
| Palm Pilot, worked for a secret government agency that handles
| occult issues" but over time it gets deeper and the characters
| get really fleshed out. It is also awesome because you get to
| see technology move with the time, since the books take place
| concurrent with our technological progress, so technology like
| PDAs make way for smart phones.
|
| Elizabeth Bear - Just all around great characters.
|
| Greg Egan - Science Fiction but deeply rooted in real science
| and math, his homepage https://www.gregegan.net often dives
| deeper into the math behind his books and includes citations
| for further reading! Many of his books lack the "science
| fiction gadgetry" feel (although some have it) if you are
| trying to avoid that.
|
| Cory Doctorow - He used to be huge in the open source community
| (not sure, maybe he still is?) his books all explore
| interesting social issues through the lens of technology driven
| change.
|
| FWIW many people do not like Brandon Sanderson and I avoid
| recommending his books.
|
| IMHO all of the above authors have good characters, Doctorow
| tends to write younger characters (early to mid 20s), but the
| rest focus on mature characters. Some, such as Stross, let you
| watch a character start out young and mature throughout the
| books (I think his main character has gone from his 20s to his
| 40s, and it shows in how the character acts and approaches
| issues).
|
| If you really like math, try Greg Egan. Quite a few of his
| books have the premise "what would be the impact if this odd
| bit of, real world, complete with citations, math was just a
| little bit different?" If that is your thing, then you'll be
| delighted at what he writes. :-D
|
| e.g.
|
| > In the universe containing Seth's world, light cannot travel
| in all directions: there is a "dark cone" to the north and
| south. Seth can only face to the east (or the west, if he tips
| his head backwards). If he starts to turn to the north or
| south, his body stretches out across the landscape, and to
| rotate to face north-east is every bit as impossible as
| accelerating to the speed of light.
|
| Fun mind bending stuff. :-D
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| >Cory Doctorow
|
| _Little Brother_ was, for a long time, my absolute favorite
| novel. That and _Pirate Cinema_.
| lupusreal wrote:
| > I just didn't find the characters in the books for my age
| group, who were largely written by women, to be relatable
|
| Were you reading contemporary books or older books? I found
| that there's lots of fiction for boys, written by men, from the
| 19th and 20th centuries. A lot of it is very good, many popular
| classics like Treasure Island. Edit: I see you mentioned that
| one.
| Aromasin wrote:
| Even Sanderson's "adult" fiction can read as incredibly
| immature at times. Every character seems to have a caricature
| of a mental illness. Every thought and feeling they experience
| seems to tie back to it, and it derails the story while taking
| away from the excellent world-building. I loved the Stormlight
| Archives to start with, but they became more and more "woke"
| (as much as I despise using that word) as time went on.
|
| If you're interested in returning to fiction but through the
| lens of an adult - a little grittier - I'd recommend Joe
| Abercrombie, Pierce Brown, Dmitry Glukhovsky, Adrian
| Tchaikovsky, Dan Abnett, and Andrzej Sapkowski.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| My daughter is 12 now, and reading tons more than when she was 9.
| The difference is now she has twice daily access to the high
| school library versus once a week access to an elementary
| library.
|
| Not sure how much it generalizes, but what would have had her
| reading more then would have been a well stocked manga section in
| the elementary library and daily access.
|
| Manga really is an accessible way to get used to reading, and a
| gateway. She just finished Lord of the Rings.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| My daughters still a toddler, but when she sees me holding a
| book, she gets hers out too. I taught her to point out what the
| pictures are, so she does that on any book. If she can read
| LOTR someday, that'll be something :)
| BadCookie wrote:
| My 10-year-old did not understand that I was reading a book
| when I was using the Kindle or Libby app on my phone. He was
| surprised and excited to learn that e-books that I read out
| loud to him are available in print! This has disturbed me so
| much that I am contemplating switching back to physical books
| in order to role model better (or more obvious) behavior.
|
| All that is to say, maybe kids aren't interested in reading
| partly because they don't see their parents doing it ... at
| least in a way that they understand.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| One of the problem with a lot of schools is their layout. Yes,
| they have libraries. But many students have no way to access
| those libraries during lunch hours except by way of special
| passes. All school libraries should, by default, be necessarily
| directly adjacent to the common area so kids can browse during
| recess in the same way that they are adjacent to school
| cafeterias.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| I don't particularly buy any of the explanations given in the
| article, or ITT for that matter. I had tons of screen time as a
| child, that didn't stop me from reading a ton then or now.
| Schools (and I) were just as test-focused back then. I wasn't
| getting book recs from my peers so that doesn't make sense to me
| either.
|
| Maybe I'm an anomaly here but I never found the books targeted at
| children/teens especially interesting. Around 8-9 my mom gave me
| a book, a couple hundred pages long, intended solely for adults,
| but it was about something I was passionate about. I loved it and
| never stopped reading after that.
|
| My advice: if you want your kid to read, give them books they'd
| be interested in. Not 'age appropriate books', just books. Read
| books yourself and talk to your children about them. Build a
| personal library and lend books liberally, to children, friends,
| family, everyone. A culture of reading and enjoying books is your
| best bet for instilling a love of reading in your chilld.
| aetherson wrote:
| Do you have kids?
|
| "Give your kids books they'd be interested in" is kind of
| classic meaningless advice. Like, sure, of course that's what
| you want to do -- except, if you have a kid who doesn't have an
| existing strong reading habit, how do you find books they'd be
| interested in? Like, that's the goal! You can't just assume the
| solution.
|
| I have a nine-year-old daughter who definitely does read, but
| isn't a voracious reader, and I've tried a lot of different
| things to up the amount of time she spends reading. It's
| tricky. One of the things that I've found is she's more willing
| to invest in graphic novels than prose novels, but I don't feel
| like at this point graphic novels deepen her literacy.
| bjornlouser wrote:
| You've probably already seen these, but just in case:
|
| https://www.mangaclassics.com
| 2024throwaway wrote:
| These are... not books.
|
| I'm not saying they are not worthy of consumption or
| anything like that, but A: I doubt very many teachers would
| accept a "book report" written about a graphic novel and B:
| consuming graphic novels, by their nature, is not purely
| reading. Your brain/imagination has far less work to do, as
| you don't have to mentally picture the
| scenes/people/actions, they are right there for you to look
| at.
| gknoy wrote:
| These are... not books. you don't have to
| mentally picture the scenes/people/actions
|
| I sort of see what you're saying, even if I don't agree
| with it. I think the really neat thing about these, are
| that they present _classic stories_ in a way that is more
| appealing, and more easily digestible, to kids who might
| never have considered them otherwise.
|
| I remember when I was in middle school, my English
| teacher had a box in the corner of comic book adaptations
| of about a dozen "classic" stories. Several were stories
| by Poe, and similar 1800s-era classics. (Dracula,
| Sherlock Holmes, etc.) I devoured them (despite loving
| reading "regular" books too). I've forgotten most of the
| plots, but remember having enjoyed reading them. Some of
| them, I've never read the originals, but for others I had
| already read (or subsequently read) the more-detailed
| originals. (Anything Sherlock Holmes, at the time, was
| something I enjoyed.)
|
| Reading these stories as a manga makes you lose out on a
| lot of details, but probably makes it a lot easier to
| digest some things. Pride and Prejudice, for example, has
| pages of details of peoples' social lives, and the
| complex interactions of several younger and older women,
| along with descriptions of gardens and houses, and I know
| that I definitely had trouble keeping track of who all
| the ancillary characters were. Having visual
| representations of these characters might make it easier
| to track that. You lose out on the richness of Austen's
| prose, but you keep the core character developments,
| relationships, and emotional interactions that form the
| basis of the stories.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > I've tried a lot of different things to up the amount of
| time she spends reading... she's more willing to invest in
| graphic novels than prose novels
|
| If you haven't yet, push out beyond fiction. In my
| experience, libraries have a really divergent collection of
| large, illustrated volumes.
|
| When I was 5-10 I read comic strip books - but also
| encyclopedias. Specifically World Book; Britannica was too
| dry.
|
| note: I've no complaint with graphic novels. Sons 1, 2 & 5
| were big into them. One is writing fiction. Two was into
| physics and anime, is now into psychology and early Japanese
| film making. Five performs+crafts his own music videos.
| Domenic_S wrote:
| I have kids, my older is 11 and reads almost whenever she
| can. She loves to read herself to sleep at night.
|
| We've taken her to the library since she was a baby where
| we'd find new baby books to read to her. Over time, we
| stopped picking out books for her and let her wander the
| isles, picking whatever seemed interesting to her. She
| usually chooses a wide assortment of things from comics to YA
| fiction.
|
| My son is much more interested in screens, but he still reads
| a lot. Whenever we restrict the screens his next default is
| to read.
|
| We read a lot to both of them as infants & toddlers. We have
| a couple bookshelves worth of books in the house, but
| honestly they spend almost their whole reading time on new-
| to-them library books. We've hit the library checkout limit
| pretty much every time we go! And it's no waste - every book
| is returned read.
|
| > _if you have a kid who doesn 't have an existing strong
| reading habit, how do you find books they'd be interested
| in?_
|
| I'd start by taking them to the library and letting them
| explore. Chances are they'll find something that interests
| them!
| humansareok1 wrote:
| >how do you find books they'd be interested in? Like, that's
| the goal! You can't just assume the solution.
|
| What a strange question?
|
| If they are interested in fantasy movies give them a fantasy
| book. If they're interested in mystery, the same. If they're
| interested in Dinosaurs, the same. How is this some great
| challenge? The things you like to read about are the same
| things you already like... Are you implying you know nothing
| about your daughter?
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| Agree it seems odd. One thing the children in my life are
| NOT lacking is random interests. Sports books are a great
| avenue and often highly accessible for younger readers.
| Pretty much any hobby/niche interest has books that are
| suitable. Kid likes animals? Give them 'The Soul of an
| Octopus'. Kid likes scifi movies? Give em 'Childhood's
| End'. Its really not a challenge when you know them well.
| ars wrote:
| Try the Fablehaven series for her.
|
| For the the mid-teens, Mistborn series.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| I do. I've given my son who's an avid swimmer a non-fiction
| book about a group training to try and make the Olympics.
| I've given my nephew interested in space 'The Right Stuff'.
| Both devoured the books and went off on their own reading
| journeys from there.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| I have kids and it seems like fine advice. You find books
| they'd be interested in by knowing about their hobbies,
| interests, and personality, and finding books that match that
| in some manner, and then pitching it to them, regardless of
| whether it is age appropriate or not.
|
| Of course it is hard to do - at least, harder to do than
| saying "I have a 5 year old, and this book says it is for 5
| year olds, so I will have them read it".
| Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote:
| I agree with you. Age appropriate usually have terribly boring
| stories.
|
| To be fair, the same is true for tv shows and movies, I can't
| stand any "per child" tv show, we moved immediately to disney
| classics and then onto Miraculous Ladybug (mine are 3 and 5
| years old).
|
| As for books, we have a very fun series of "choose your own
| adventure" books that really hooked them, they love making
| their choices
| quirk wrote:
| This is good advice. My 9yr old reads adult fiction, so long as
| I have read it and don't think there's anything too "adult" in
| there. I'm saving Heinlein for his teen years lol.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| Yeah, a bit of supervision at that age is appropriate, but my
| advice is don't screen their books for too long! If they're
| mature enough to be actively seeking out mature titles, you
| trying to gatekeep them isn't going to prevent them reading
| what they want to for long. Better to let them make their own
| choices and discuss sensitive topics with them as adults.
| jongjong wrote:
| I was never very keen of non-fiction books. The reason is because
| I could usually just watch it in movie format which is a lot less
| time-consuming.
|
| The last fiction book I read (over a decade ago) was Harry Potter
| and the Deathly Hallows and the reason I read it is because I had
| watched all the previous Harry Potter films and wanted to know
| what happens but the movie didn't exist yet at the time. I was
| hooked and there was literally no other option. I'm sure this
| effect worked very well in J.K. Rowling's favor.
|
| Some people claim that they prefer fiction in book format because
| they can fill in the gaps and imagine the worlds and characters
| however they like... But personally, I prefer getting as much
| information as possible; visual information is part of it. If I
| had to choose between watching a film in color or black-and-
| white, I'd choose color for the same reason... With black and
| white, I could let my mind wander and assume that the person's
| clothing is made of gold yarn but I'd rather not as it mostly
| distracts from the story and those aren't details that interest
| me.
|
| When I consume fiction, I'm looking for narratives, external
| perspectives, messages, lessons, principles and insights in a
| format that is as objective as possible. In book format, there's
| too much that comes from me, I end up projecting my pre-existing
| biases into the story and it doesn't feel as satisfying or mind-
| expanding.
| mwigdahl wrote:
| I prefer fiction in book format because the depth of
| characterization, thought processes, internal monologues, etc.
| allow me to connect with and understand the characters at a
| level that is impossible when watching an actor portraying that
| character on screen.
|
| Personally I find the messages, lessons, principles, and
| insights come through a lot more clearly when I have access to
| the characters' internal thoughts, perceptions, and reasoning,
| and you get a lot more of this in the printed version.
| mondobe wrote:
| I love how condescending this headline is, lol.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Throughout grade school, I had several different environments.
| Most of them were unsupervised and not regimented. Before class,
| class, after school, home, out of the house, exploring away from
| the house, time with friends.
|
| My kids had class and home and sometimes activities. None were
| unsupervised or non-regimented.
|
| Coming home from exploring and popping open a book is nice.
| Opening a book and hoping it provides some escape from the 160th
| hour in a box with adults is desperation.
| Izkata wrote:
| > Yet I can't help but be worried that the kinds of books that
| changed my life between ages 8 and 12 are falling by the wayside.
| Is there room for the thoughtful, serious, beautiful young-
| person's novel in 2024? Can you publish _Bridge to Terabithia_ in
| the age of Captain Underpants?
|
| ...Uh, come the 90s, _Bridge to Terabithia_ was a required
| reading book that I don 't think anyone my age cared about. The
| popular series I remember were, in no particular order:
| Animorphs, Goosebumps, Nancy Drew, Harry Potter, and Redwall.
|
| I think it's much simpler, adults don't know what kids are
| interested in. For example, just before that age I was interested
| in animals and the solar system. Read anything I could find on
| them, and had no interest in anything being pushed by school or
| parents. At age 9, I just happened to see Animorphs #11 _The
| Forgotten_ in the impulse-buy section of our local drugstore and
| begged my parents for it - for anyone unaware, the Animorphs
| covers showed kids turning into animals, which was how it drew my
| attention. That set me onto sci-fi in general, then fantasy - and
| I 've kept reading since.
| themanmaran wrote:
| > in the age of Captain Underpants
|
| Captain Underpants is at least 20 years old now. Becoming a
| piece of classic American fiction in it's own right.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| It's probably a mistake to think kids need new books to be
| published. The classics are classic for a reason. There are
| many childhoods worth of incredible books already available.
| I'm not weeping for struggling authors. If they write something
| incredible it will be noticed, if they don't then just like you
| said Bridge to Terabithia, Nancy Drew, Redwall, HP, The Hardy
| Boys, Chronicles of Narnia, Eragon, etc, etc, etc. still exist.
| saghm wrote:
| > ...Uh, come the 90s, Bridge to Terabithia was a required
| reading book that I don't think anyone my age cared about
|
| > I think it's much simpler, adults don't know what kids are
| interested in
|
| Pretty much everyone I know (including myself) who read a lot
| as a kid but doesn't read much anymore identifies being forced
| to read things in school as the reason they don't. Being forced
| to read stuff we didn't find interesting isn't the whole issue
| though because I think there are things I might have actually
| enjoyed reading in another context. In my experience, the
| larger issue is what happened in the classroom alongside the
| reading. Most if not all teachers I had would give quizzes
| designed to ensure we kept up with the reading that essentially
| would pick out tiny random details from the assigned chapters
| ask us about them, and that took the focus away from actually
| absorbing the higher-level themes and insights that I'd
| normally make when reading on my own. Even worse, when
| discussing things afterwards in the classroom, there was
| usually a certain analysis or viewpoint that was deemed
| "correct" that we were supposed to figure out and be able to
| reproduce when we were tested on the entirety of the book after
| we finished it. Making me read a book to memorize random
| details and _not_ have any thoughts of my own on what things
| meant because I would just get told what to think later ruined
| any enjoyment I used to have of reading; they might as well
| have just given me a page of bullet points to memorize than
| give me an entire book full of pages and pages of stuff to
| distract from what they actually were trying to make me learn.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > Uh, come the 90s, Bridge to Terabithia was a required reading
| book that I don't think anyone my age cared about.
|
| Exactly. It's a book adults think kids should read (because
| _literature_ or whatever), not a book that kids actually care a
| rip about reading.
| jesterswilde wrote:
| I stopped reading because it became a larger part of school. I
| strongly disliked school, so reading was a part of the thing I
| strongly disliked. Really, anything they tried to force was
| soured on me for a long time.
|
| My disdain for school started around 9 or 10
| janalsncm wrote:
| > Indeed, several people I spoke to mentioned that middle-
| graders' lack of phones created a marketing problem in an era
| when no one at any publishing house has any idea how to make a
| book a bestseller other than to hope it blows up on TikTok.
| "BookTok is imperfect," said Karen Jensen, a youth librarian and
| a blogger for School Library Journal, "but in teen publishing
| it's generating huge bestsellers, bringing back things from the
| backlist. There's not anything like that right now for the
| middle-grade age group."
|
| This part of the article is very off-putting to me. You don't
| need TikTok to find good books for kids. Kids don't need to see
| digital advertisements to make a decision. They need access to a
| library stocked with recently published books that kids will
| enjoy.
|
| The author mentions later on that libraries are being defunded,
| and this is likely to be the root cause. Rather than spending so
| many words on speculation it would've been nice to see some hard
| numbers on the subject.
| tivert wrote:
| > This part of the article is very off-putting to me. You don't
| need TikTok to find good books for kids. Kids don't need to see
| digital advertisements to make a decision. They need access to
| a library stocked with recently published books that kids will
| enjoy.
|
| They need a library stocked with "books that kids will enjoy,"
| recently published doesn't have anything to do with it. It's
| not like filling the school library up with stuff only
| published in the last 3 years is what we need to get kids
| reading.
|
| > The author mentions later on that libraries are being
| defunded, and this is likely to be the root cause. Rather than
| spending so many words on speculation it would've been nice to
| see some hard numbers on the subject.
|
| I doubt that's the root cause. Frankly, _all_ the other things
| seem more significant: making reading education more test-
| focused and less fun, screens (in a zillion different ways,
| subtle and obvious), the pandemic breaking peer-influenced
| reading, etc. They 're all probably working together dis-
| synergisticly.
|
| I also wonder if there's other missing social components. I
| remember in elementary school feeling that reading "chapter
| books" was important step to being more mature. Do kids still
| feel that way? Of course I also often read pulpy junk that was
| fun or interesting, not serious.
|
| The OP said:
|
| > Connor was more blunt: "Maybe you think a book about a school
| shooting is really important," she said, "but kids want to read
| a fun book. That's what kids want today--they want to have
| fun."
|
| I think that's _always_ been true. IIRC, I always disliked the
| "important" books I was forced to read for school (e.g. the
| ones that tended to win important awards from adults and get
| articles written about them in the New York Times to this day).
| faeriechangling wrote:
| > It's not like filling the school library up with stuff only
| published in the last 3 years is what we need to get kids
| reading.
|
| I've heard newer English literature evangelized quite a lot
| since older English literature gets more and more Eurocentric
| the further back you go. Usually on political grounds, but
| also with the claim that newer literature is better and more
| relevant to especially diverse children's lives.
| majormajor wrote:
| > This part of the article is very off-putting to me. You don't
| need TikTok to find good books for kids. Kids don't need to see
| digital advertisements to make a decision. They need access to
| a library stocked with recently published books that kids will
| enjoy.
|
| > The author mentions later on that libraries are being
| defunded, and this is likely to be the root cause. Rather than
| spending so many words on speculation it would've been nice to
| see some hard numbers on the subject.
|
| You also need "evangelism" from people in a position to
| influence. That's unlikely to be librarians; and
| parents/teachers are also not the best-positioned for that.
|
| Overall the costs of social media likely still outweigh the
| harms here, but it seems to me like they've identified a
| legimitate "good" usage in encouraging reading in certain
| niches.
|
| How to replicate that without social media? Gotta make a bunch
| of local kid "influencers."
| smileysteve wrote:
| Or sponsor book fairs and bookit programs ... which have
| higher costs than digital ads.
| janalsncm wrote:
| Watching someone do a thing and doing the thing are
| different. One of the pitfalls of a lot of recommendation
| systems is that they don't know or care about the difference.
| Watching a video about a book is fine, but then you need to
| go out and read.
|
| It's a little like reading an article before commenting. Most
| people don't. You will get a lot more out of the conversation
| if you do though.
| keiferski wrote:
| I think you dramatically underestimate the influence that
| TikTok has on young people. If you want something to be popular
| amongst young people, making it popular on TikTok is a _huge_
| way to do so.
|
| Libraries already have thousands, if not millions, of books on
| hand. I don't think it's a funding issue.
| tigen wrote:
| The defunding thing sounds like a bit of obligatory politics.
|
| "In some states, teachers can't even keep a classroom library
| because they have to protect themselves from book bans"
|
| Yeah this sounds false.
| SpaceManNabs wrote:
| > Yeah this sounds false.
|
| I have quite a few teacher friends in Georgia and NYC, and I
| can tell you that this is the case for them. Organizations
| that represent teachers have said so themselves. Hard
| evidence is best though. Do you have numbers to dismiss their
| claims?
| tigen wrote:
| What is the case, they literally are not allowed to have
| (any) books in the classroom? Can you be specific as to the
| mechanism here? Do you yourself have any link to any
| evidence? You (the article) are making the claim.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I think the argument is quite subtle.
|
| There is a lot of book banning occurring and the rate
| seems to be increasing fast (see links below).
|
| There are penalties in some jurisdictions and zero
| teachers want to face the kind of shit that has gone on
| with parents and politicians, churches and local body
| meetings.
|
| So rather than search out each book they have and keep
| track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just
| remove the lot. Teachers do not have time for this crap,
| and why risk their jobs?
|
| It's chilling and it's hard to see how this isn't the
| aim. 'Who ever needed more than a bible?'
|
| https://pen.org/report/narrating-the-crisis/
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/books/book-bans-
| public-sc...
| tivert wrote:
| > So rather than search out each book they have and keep
| track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just
| remove the lot.
|
| That doesn't pass the smell test. The only way I can see
| that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is
| mainly to push up against _someone 's_ line, politically.
|
| Even in the most hostile environment, I doubt you'd run
| afoul of anyone with a well-stocked library of widely
| beloved classic children's books.
| monknomo wrote:
| "widely beloved" by whom? "classic" in what sense?
| nickd2001 wrote:
| I'd think Tolkein's "The Hobbit" would fit this
| description? Or CS Lewis Narnia series, one-offs like
| "The Secret Garden", Also Edith Nesbit, fantastic
| children's author, "The Railway children" probably her
| most famous. century old at least.
| SpaceManNabs wrote:
| The Hobbit is banned by multiple school districts. It
| actually pissed off a lot of teachers too. It is books
| like that being banned that make teachers not want to
| have a library at all. It is really easy to have a banned
| book, and teachers do not have the time to source each
| book in their already existing libraries.
|
| But I guess in their words:
|
| > the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against
| someone's line, politically
| janalsncm wrote:
| Sure, but then you're just reinforcing the attitude that
| reading is just for stodgy old people rather than a way
| to understand the world as it is today.
| tigen wrote:
| That pen.org article focuses on "number of bannings" but
| mixes together state law (predominantly Florida alone)
| and individual school district policy choices.
|
| It also avoids discussing which age is appropriate for
| these topics. Most of the support for including explicit
| sexual violence seems to be about high school, and even
| there it's not clear that explicit content is necessary
| to these purposes (I'm not familiar with the books in
| question).
|
| Then there are the books by Kendi etc. and an example
| where that was required reading in an AP course (college-
| level). Sure, that's debatable but isn't of much
| relevance to reading, reading for enjoyment in
| particular, by young kids, which is the topic of this HN
| post.
|
| The pen.org article says "books aren't harmful--
| censorship is." So it gives no credence to any kind of
| concern about age-appropriate topics.
| SpaceManNabs wrote:
| Teachers are leaving the profession en masse because they
| feel unsafe, unsupported, underpaid, and harassed by
| national organizations.
|
| Teacher unions list book bans as one of the primary
| reasons for leaving. They have data and testimony backing
| that up. We see legislation and organizations all over
| America.
|
| Here is a quick article describing the number of books
| being banned and the effects it has on teachers [1]. It
| list numbers. There are numerous articles all over the
| internet from well respected organizations like the NYT
| saying the same stuff.
|
| The numbers are already presented by them. We see the
| teachers leaving. We know education is suffering from
| systematic national pressures from both political sides.
| Feel free to look it up. hell on first principles, book
| banning has a direct effect on libraries teachers can
| have when they include such classics. Again, what numbers
| do you have? Or just first principles logic to dismiss
| them at all?
|
| [1] : https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-
| articles/educators-fi...
| rimunroe wrote:
| What sounds false about it?
|
| A (very straightforward) search surfaced this article
| https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvmq54/florida-teachers-
| are-...
| tigen wrote:
| That does not say teachers can't keep a library. At most it
| says that the titles in said library need to be
| reviewed/approved by the school.
|
| The emphasis on "taking away libraries" appears to be
| partly politically motivated.
|
| This isn't about censorship per se since we have a baseline
| expectation of censorship. We already don't allow teachers
| to stock racist material or porn in classrooms. This new
| thing seems to that there are LGBT books which veer close
| to the edge with stuff like explicit sex scenes.
|
| It mentions other "proposed" laws, some of which seemingly
| setting a lower bar. But "proposed" laws aren't banning
| libraries now.
|
| In any case, how can this possibly be an important and
| relevant issue _today_ contributing to an already-observed
| decline in reading in 9-year olds nationally?
| krapp wrote:
| The fact that these laws are applied to _all_ books with
| LGBT content _regardless_ of what they contain - while
| non-LGBT books with sexual content remain unbanned and
| available to minors - is what makes it censorship[0].
|
| [0]https://apnews.com/article/lgbtq-florida-dont-say-gay-
| books-...
| tigen wrote:
| Sure but that was backed off. The law does not, in fact,
| apply to all books with LGBT content regardless of what
| they contain. There was a March 2024 legal settlement
| clarifying many cases that are explicitly not prohibited.
|
| Also, do you think these laws have been important
| regarding the "decline by 9" of 9-year olds reading for
| enjoyment?
|
| One possible issue on the contrary side is promotion of
| kids' books involving racial diversity themes. Often such
| moralizing books are not very interesting for pure
| entertainment value. They are there to meet a market
| trend, some may be better than others but in general have
| not stood the test of time.
| rimunroe wrote:
| > That does not say teachers can't keep a library. At
| most it says that the titles in said library need to be
| reviewed/approved by the school.
|
| It says the teachers have to remove or cover up their
| classroom libraries until their books can be approved by
| the school. I don't know how you can honestly argue that
| that doesn't constitute removal, even if it might be
| temporary.
|
| > In any case, how can this possibly be an important and
| relevant issue today contributing to an already-observed
| decline in reading in 9-year olds nationally?
|
| I don't know enough about the subject to comment, which
| is why I didn't say anything about such a relationship. I
| only responded to you because you were saying someone
| else was wrong and I didn't think you were right
| tigen wrote:
| I brought this up because the slate article cites book
| banning as a reason for decline of reading for enjoyment
| by age 9. I am arguing it is irrelevant and also
| essentially false in terms of classroom libraries
| generally not being removed on any significant scale (or
| at all, probably) even in Florida.
|
| The article cited a particular school district directive
| which seems to be a temporary review procedure for its
| high schools. It would be disingenuous to say that means
| teachers can't keep a library, full stop, and even in
| that case it seems it was immediately backtracked. The
| law in question has since been clarified.
| janalsncm wrote:
| It's a pretty standard pattern in right wing politics. Defund
| a thing, it becomes less efficient, politicians claim the
| thing they broke is better handled by the private sector,
| defunding continues. We have seen this with pretty much every
| public good since the Reagan/Thatcher era. The nice things we
| had in the West have been gutted and sold off for parts.
|
| It should tell you something that these "concerned parents"
| never pressured Amazon to stop selling the books they
| complain about. It was never about the books.
| SpaceManNabs wrote:
| > They need access to a library stocked with recently published
| books that kids will enjoy.
|
| Sure. The next step is helping them making a decision on which
| book to read and provide a social environment for doing that.
| Libraries do not really do that and haven't done that even in
| the early 90s.
| janalsncm wrote:
| I am sorry your experience at libraries was so unfulfilling.
| To me, libraries opened up a world of knowledge. When I was a
| kid my mom would take my brother and I to the library and
| just let us loose. As a kid I could spend what felt like days
| looking at cool cutaway diagrams of castles or reading about
| how black holes worked. And at the end I took home 5 or 10 of
| the most interesting books. And it was all free!
| faeriechangling wrote:
| If you don't need TikTok to find good books, how would you
| recommend finding good books? Even if you're at a library that
| doesn't narrow things down all that much, I've been to
| libraries with several floors filled with bookshelves.
| janalsncm wrote:
| Long before TikTok and YouTube and even Google there was the
| Dewey Decimal System. We use it to categorize books into a
| hierarchical tree structure. So I think what most people do
| is to find a category they're interested in and look inside
| that category for either subcategories or books they find
| interesting.
| devbent wrote:
| My local library has an "ask the librarian" program.
|
| Tell them what you like to read and they'll email you a list
| of 10 books to try next.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > Kids don't need to see digital advertisements to make a
| decision. They need access to a library stocked with recently
| published books that kids will enjoy.
|
| At 9 I had no idea how to go into a massive thing like a
| library and make a selection for myself. "Word of mouth" made a
| lot of choices for me when I was young.
| MisterTea wrote:
| In the NYC public libraries there are kids sections where you
| just walk around and look at books. If something seems
| interesting then pick it up and read it. I preferred things
| with technical pictures so the kids section was quite boring.
| triceratops wrote:
| Weird. At 9 I randomly picked whatever looked interesting. If
| I liked it, I proceeded to read every single other thing by
| that author.
|
| There was no "word of mouth" because I was the only kid in my
| class who read for pleasure.
| hehdhdjehehegwv wrote:
| When I was that age my teacher had a thing where reading
| something like 3 books got you out of a lot of homework and
| your parent had to sign a paper listing what you read and
| you turned it in.
|
| As a kid who already hated school, and used reading as an
| escape from a pretty shit childhood, I was clocking in 5
| books a week.
|
| The teacher first accused my parents of lying that I read
| that many books, because it quickly got to double digits,
| but I was able to summarize all of them off the top of my
| head, so instead I was just forbidden from doing it
| altogether.
|
| Not sure what the lesson is there, lol.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > The teacher first accused my parents of lying that I
| read that many books, because it quickly got to double
| digits, but I was able to summarize all of them off the
| top of my head, so instead I was just forbidden from
| doing it altogether.
|
| > Not sure what the lesson is there, lol.
|
| Lessons learned:
|
| a) Incentives matter (economy 101)
|
| b) If a market offers possibilities for arbitrage, market
| participants will attempt to make use of them.
|
| c) By market laws, arbitrage opportunities will close
| very fast, so in the long term, markets can be assumed to
| be arbitrage-free.
|
| d) Goodhart's law: When a measure becomes a target, it
| ceases to be a good measure.
|
| e) Authorities (or those in power) will attempt to cheat
| you. Don't trust them.
| smileysteve wrote:
| At 9 (and before) i had bookit; where if you chose one of
| many of the sponsored books at the school (or public) library
| you got a personal pan pizza coupon.
|
| An interpretation is book cos have cut physical benefit
| advertising for cents on the dollar internet advertisements.
| janalsncm wrote:
| That's ok, part of the joy of going to a library is finding
| out about new things you've never even heard of. And we also
| already have human recommendation systems, they're called
| librarians!
| akira2501 wrote:
| I ended up in the government section. Reading reports about
| arms and equipment transfers from the US Government to the
| Middle East made in the 1980s. It was definitely
| fascinating, especially because the Middle East was in the
| news at that time, but I really was only there because I
| had _no idea_ what to actually do.
|
| I'm not saying the library doesn't have exceptional value,
| or that 9 year olds shouldn't be in it, but maybe for
| younger patrons a "concierge" type service or "first timer
| group experience" being available would help a lot.
| tylersmith wrote:
| There will always be people unable to figure out basic skills
| but that's not a reason to handicap the entire system.
| kulahan wrote:
| I still don't, honestly. I've never gone to the library when
| I wasn't going to get some specific title. I Google stuff
| first.
| renewiltord wrote:
| It's interesting that all problems in America are due to
| "funding". It's actually quite curious because funding was a
| problem for electric vehicles, funding was a problem for space,
| funding was a problem for literally everything. But then
| sometimes people come up and succeed at things that others have
| described as a funding problem for ages.
|
| I think I can conclude reasonably from this is that the lowest
| efficiency lever one can pull is funding. Schools with the
| highest funding have the worst performance. That's because the
| people there only know one answer to every problem: "funding".
| devbent wrote:
| > Schools with the highest funding have the worst
| performance.
|
| It could also be because the schools with the most special /
| high needs children need the most funding.
|
| Schools in poor neighborhoods need more help just to achieve
| median results. They need to contend with issues like teen
| pregnancies, drug use, violence, and kids who don't even have
| food at home.
|
| Compare those challenges to rich suburban kids and of course
| the schools in poor areas need more funding.
| feoren wrote:
| > Schools with the highest funding have the worst
| performance.
|
| Spills with the most paper towels are the messiest. Why does
| everyone think they need paper towels to clean up spills!?
| janalsncm wrote:
| Hospitals have higher mortality rates than grocery stores.
| If I have a heart attack you'll find me in the deli.
| janalsncm wrote:
| The billionaires who look for every tax loophole possible
| certainly know the value of "funding". They are currently
| funding their yachts to take them to their superyachts.
| Private equity controlled health care companies are
| extracting billions of dollars in profits (read: overcharging
| people who want to live) leading to "efficiencies" like
| understaffing and under training which cause thousands of
| excess deaths every year.
|
| Elon Musk received plenty of government funding for his
| companies as well. And guess what? BYD sells more cars than
| Tesla now (a few years ago Elon said he wasn't worried about
| them and now they're suddenly a problem) because of what?
| Government funding. Governments have also funded the majority
| of fundamental research which made present day technologies
| possible. Even today NIST, DARPA, NHS, NSF etc continue to
| fund science and technology research.
| willsoon wrote:
| Reading is a solitary activity. I stopped reading when I was in a
| relationship, so I have to spend some leisure time together. It
| was terrible at first, then I found Lars Von Trier films and the
| burden was a bit better, so... that was it.
|
| Also, society has changed so much.
|
| I grew up in a time when there was no such thing as "children's
| books". My first reading was some pulp fiction, then some
| bestsellers, then Dracula. I got to Wuthering Heights when I was
| n. I found it gripping, but I understood almost nothing. Luckily
| - crazy luckily - I have a friend, a n-year-old girl, who also
| read Wuthering and introduced me to it. So I read it again.
| 65 wrote:
| Another issue is books are too long. Especially non-fiction
| books. Book publishers know no one is going to buy a 50 page
| book, so there has to be filler and excessive detail to make a
| book long enough to be sellable.
|
| It ends up just being the same thing over and over again. The
| author explaining minute details about the day they interviewed
| someone, what the weather was like, extreme details of the
| interviewee's facial expressions. The author somehow managing to
| fit the Stanford Prison Experiment in the book. The author going
| into excruciating detail about the scientific method. The author
| giving an unnecessary history of the topic back to when humans
| were hunter gatherers.
|
| It has been a very long time since I came across a non-fiction
| book that didn't feel like it could've been 50 pages long. I end
| up giving up a few chapters in.
| mejutoco wrote:
| I have an heuristic for this. If I can find the book in an
| airport, it has the filler you mention. Textbooks are another
| item where this usually does not happen.
|
| How we sleep, the secret to business blabla, consulting tricks,
| the life of tech visionary, or lifehacks for the 21st century:
| filler,filler, filler.
| OnionBlender wrote:
| Self help books are especially bad for this. I was reading
| Dopamine Nation and the author describes their office:
|
| > My office is ten by fourteen feet, with two windows, a desk
| with a computer, a sideboard covered with books, and a low
| table between the chairs. The desk, the sideboard, and the low
| table are all made of matching reddish-brown wood. The desk is
| a hand-me-down from my former department chair. It's cracked
| down the middle on the inside, where no one else can see it, an
| apt metaphor for the work I do.
|
| > On top of the desk are ten separate piles of paper, perfectly
| aligned, like an accordion. I am told this gives the appearance
| of organized efficiency.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| There is something really funny about reading a book about
| instant gratification and the ways modern technology has
| altered our demands for it, and then criticizing that book
| for not getting to the point quick enough.
|
| I do agree that 90% of self-help books are better left as
| blog posts, though. To be honest, all of these "how to fix
| your attention span" books have been repeating the same thing
| for nearly 2 decades now. They don't really say anything new
| about how to do it; they package the same repeated things in
| new packaging.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| I mean seeing a paperback (or ebook) novella priced at $20+
| hurts, even if it's what the publisher needs to charge for the
| economics make sense.
| adolph wrote:
| The book has a distribution challenge in that the content is
| the same for all people. Sort of like how every programming
| language book has some content about setting up ones
| environment, building and the basics that make the rest of the
| book usable for the person of least experience/knowledge.
|
| Just skim past the umpteenth telling of Abraham Wald and the
| bulleted bombers and get to the meaningful parts. Even Thomas
| Jefferson condensed the New Testament down to 84 pages. [0]
|
| 0. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-
| jeffe...
| allturtles wrote:
| It sounds like you're talking about adult non-fiction
| bestsellers. I don't think that has much to do with the reading
| habits of nine-year-olds. There are plenty of 80-150 page books
| being published for this age group.
| ghaff wrote:
| And there are tons of novellas and short stories in many
| genres.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| Books are trending shorter since the advent of ebooks since a
| short ebook looks the same as a long ebook. So that DEFINITELY
| doesn't seem causal to me.
|
| I've also been hearing for a long time how novellas are the
| future of books and people simply don't buy them and they
| remain a niche format and I don't see that changing.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| Part of this is because a lot of popular non-fiction (i.e. non-
| academic) comes from long form journalism. Personally, I like
| that style but understand that some people don't. The focus on
| that style is not pure information --- the authors aren't
| writing a textbook or a self-help book --- the authors are
| telling a story. I could read the wiki page on the Wright Bros,
| but I read David McCullough's "The Wright Brothers" because the
| writing is graceful and elegant and the storytelling is vivid
| and captivating.
|
| The worst offenders, in my opinion, are the self-help/business
| books that _aspire_ to long form journalism but are probably
| better off left as a bullet list on a blogpost. These ones are
| also infected by the idea that everyone of their bullet points
| needs a vague connection to some elaborate neuroscientific
| explanation and a "case study" that is usually some
| oversimplification. Cal Newport is painfully guilty of this,
| for an example; but it's everywhere in the self-help genre and
| _especially_ in "airport" books. (I actually think Newport is
| a better blogger and occasional NewYorker writer than a book
| writer. His "insights" aren't that grand.)
|
| Fiction, well, I think a long work of fiction is fine as long
| as the story can handle it. My tastes tend toward florid,
| "purple", and quite dense prose and descriptions. I like when
| an author "paints a scene". On the other hand, I find the
| recent trend of extremely "to the point", stripped down
| "minimalist" writing that is very common in a lot of
| contemporary literature (Rooney, for example) and fantasy
| writing (Sanderson, for example) to be downright boring and
| comes off as half-baked. There are probably too many 500+pg
| books because of publishers though. Fantasy has its own
| obsession with "epics". 200-250pgs is actually a great
| goldilocks zone that doesn't get published so often nowadays,
| but should make a comeback. The big publishers hate them
| though.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Haha. Most books are padded or compressed so they fit pretty
| much the same volume. A paperback can have dense, small type in
| it, or larger type with wide margins to "puff up" the size.
| I've also noticed some paperbacks having thicker pages to make
| it look like there's more material. I suspect books the same
| size can have a 2:1 difference in the amount of text.
| humansareok1 wrote:
| Idk about anyone else but my school had a program called
| Accelerated Reader where you could read a book and take a test
| about it to score points. Harder books were worth more points, at
| the time I think Anna Karenina was the "hardest" book on the
| list. Anyway the drive to win was what initially got me reading a
| lot.
| allemagne wrote:
| I had to take these tests. For me, all it did was turn reading
| from a fun hobby into homework.
| adolph wrote:
| _The industry can't depend on Captain Underpants forever, even
| though, as [Brenna Connor, an industry analyst at Circana, the
| market research company that runs Bookscan] noted, "The devil
| works hard, but Dav Pilkey works harder."_
|
| "Book people" know why 9-year-olds stop reading. "We have met the
| enemy and he is us." [0] (which my child read from the reissue
| [1]).
|
| 0. https://www.thisdayinquotes.com/2022/04/we-have-met-the-
| enem...
|
| 1. https://www.fantagraphics.com/collections/walt-kelly
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and how
| much assigned, mandatory reading children have.
|
| I went to a private "college prep" high school, and the amount of
| assigned, mandatory reading was insane. I spent so much time
| reading assigned novels that I just didn't have time to read for
| pleasure. (And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+
| minutes reading a boring / awful novel as part of my homework?)
|
| Once I was out of college, I rediscovered reading.
| gffrd wrote:
| This was my experience as well. Loved reading when I was
| younger, but lots of assigned reading from elementary onward
| poisoned the well, so to speak.
|
| In retrospect, it's surprising how rigid the required reading
| was at my school: no choice in the material whatsoever, so the
| most important engine that drives reading (curiosity) was held
| out of the equation.
| bluerooibos wrote:
| > rediscovered reading
|
| Any tips? I didn't, somehow. After leaving high school, then
| university, my brain went into full on "be productive all the
| time" mode. My brain somehow doesn't think reading is a good
| use of my time, so I've settled for audiobooks when falling
| asleep or on long drives.
|
| The last book I was able to devour and actually enjoyed was the
| Harry Potter series, which ended just before I went to
| university.
| imzadi wrote:
| Well, first, audiobooks totally count.
|
| Have you tried Dungeon Crawler Carl?
| fullwaza wrote:
| Crazy timing, I'm listening to that series now, it's great!
| imzadi wrote:
| It's my favorite. I've listened to all the books 6+
| times.
| fullwaza wrote:
| The Bobiverse series ("We are Legion (We Are Bob)") is
| also very good and kind of along the same style.
| imzadi wrote:
| Oh yeah, I've listened to all of this and some of Dennis
| E. Taylor's other stuff, as well. I've also listened to
| all of ExFor and everything Andy Weir, almost everything
| narrated by Travis Baldree, too.
| gknoy wrote:
| Seconding the "audiobooks count" that Imzadi said, I'd like
| to note that the Martian audiobook is exceptional, and I've
| heard that others by Weir are excellent as well.
|
| You might enjoy reading _short_ novels. I really liked the
| "All Systems Red" series, each of them feels short enough to
| read in a day. If you enjoyed Harry Potter, you might also
| enjoy the Invisible Library series, or maybe the Harry
| Dresden novels. They both felt like fun-pulpy romps through
| magical worlds.
|
| Maybe you can convince your brain that reading at bedtime is
| a good use of time because it promotes healthy sleeping by
| not being on a screen. ;) (It hasn't worked for me, I still
| have a backlog two shelves long.)
| octokatt wrote:
| It sounds like you enjoy books, the problem is convincing
| yourself you deserve to take time to read them. To quiet that
| anxiety:
|
| > The habit of reading is a meaningful way to meditatively
| intake large portions of information. Reading helps with
| creativity, focus, and communication. Reading light-hearted,
| entertaining books increases these skills while preserving
| focus for work in a way that reading the latest O'Reilly book
| does not, while making reading non-fiction books in the
| future easier because you've been practicing reading.
|
| Separately, humans are not machines. In general, we aren't
| wired to constantly be doing things, and taking time to play
| or to enjoy stories or to do absolutely nothing is an
| entirely necessary maintenance task.
|
| Removing joy and rest from your life for productivity is the
| biological equivalent of accumulating technical debt. This
| debt can intensify until you need a complete rewrite; when
| this happens, it's called burn out, and it's kinda really
| bad.
| foobarian wrote:
| > the problem is convincing yourself you deserve to take
| time to read them
|
| This hits home in so many more ways than just reading. I
| find it hard to do any leisure activities because doing
| them means I have spare time to do any of a thousand items
| on my personal backlog. It's very stressful.
| iknowSFR wrote:
| Try Brandon Sanderson novels.
|
| General change to my habits has been that if I'm not feeling
| a story, it's okay to put it down. The amount of reading I
| have trudged through because I was afraid of quitting...
| chrisan wrote:
| Brando Sando or Wheel of Time :)
| aatd86 wrote:
| Or David Eddings, or Tad Williams etc. :) All these
| fantasy stuff are what kept me reading.
|
| Although nowadays I read more manuals and research
| papers.
|
| Or the occasional online xuanhuan novel.
| prisenco wrote:
| I suggest Stephen King as a reintroduction for general
| audiences (since a lot of people have a hard time vibing
| with high fantasy, I know I do).
|
| He's not the greatest writer of all time, but he's
| enjoyable while not feeling like you're reading YA or
| something age inappropriate. And his classics are classics
| for a reason.
|
| Can't go wrong with Carrie, The Stand, Misery, The Shining
| or Salem's Lot.
| nullhole wrote:
| One key thing is: don't feel like you have to suffer through
| reading an entire book if you don't like it. If it's a chore
| to read it, find something else - different author, or
| different type of book.
| selectodude wrote:
| Giving up on a shitty book feels the same as cancelling
| plans that you don't want to do. Feels great.
| toast0 wrote:
| If you need shitty books to practice giving up on, I can
| autograph and send you some books written by a Pulitzer
| Prize winning author who shares my name and writes
| terrible books. Email in profile.
| feoren wrote:
| I would add: don't try to convince yourself that you
| actually like this book because it has great reviews or
| your friends recommended it. Plenty of novels with great
| reviews are actually trash (IMO, of course, but also in
| yours, which is the point). Admit to yourself that you
| don't actually like it and that's OK.
| chrisan wrote:
| I wouldn't call audiobook "settling", I enjoy them more than
| books with a great narrator.
|
| What got me back into reading was Harry Potter. I hadn't read
| a book for fun since middle school and had grown to loathing
| reading of any kind from all the assigned reading. (just give
| me the cliff notes).
|
| HP was new, all the rage, and wife convinced me to give it a
| try (she had always been an avid reader). I had maybe 3 books
| to catch up on and I read them all back to back and was
| eagerly awaiting the 4th. We'd do midnight releases and each
| buy our own book and didn't sleep till we were through.
| dumpsterdiver wrote:
| Setting aside time for relaxation and leisure activities is
| highly productive, but unfortunately that isn't something
| that becomes obvious until your work visibly suffers from
| "all work and no play". The costs of overworking yourself
| truly are insidious. It really is akin to a rogue wave - you
| don't know how deep it runs until it finally hits.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| >> rediscovered reading
|
| > Any tips?
|
| > The last book I was able to devour and actually enjoyed was
| the Harry Potter series
|
| Actually, it was Harry Potter that got me back into reading.
| I read the first 5 books over the course of 2 weeks the
| summer after I graduated college.
|
| In some cases I'd see an interview on late night television
| and read the book the guest was promoting. More recently I
| read a book that was discussed on the radio during my
| commute.
|
| In other cases, there was a subject I wanted to learn about,
| so I'd read books about the subject, or biographies on people
| who were known in the subject matter.
|
| Sometimes I'll see a movie / TV show based on the book, and
| like it enough to read the book.
|
| And: J. K. Rowling's new series about Coroman Strike (written
| under a pseudonym) is excellent. Read it slowly, though. I'm
| also slowly re-reading Harry Potter to my kids and it's a lot
| more enjoyable in bits instead of as a binge.
| pomian wrote:
| I would up vote trying audiobooks. They are great for
| traveling, also cleaning up and other chores. Classic
| narrators make everything fun to listen to. There are voices
| for lulling you to sleep. Others to make the stories
| exciting. The Harry Potter books have two narrators -they are
| both great, in different ways. Lord of the rings is much more
| fun in audiobook format. Try to find audiobooks read by Simon
| Vance, for example - he reads the Master and Commander
| series, and the original James Bond series. Have fun.
| wonger_ wrote:
| I'm not an avid reader, but I've rediscovered reading in the
| past couple years. A few tips that help me:
|
| 1) Keep a list of book recommendations mentioned from HN,
| podcasts, friends, etc. Eventually, some will be recommended
| twice or more, and that may be enough to tell your brain
| "this will be worth it."
|
| 2) Try non-fiction if you're usually a fiction person, or
| vice versa. I grew up enjoying only fiction. But now I
| realize I enjoy non-fiction a lot more.
|
| 3) Don't stick with boring books for more than a couple
| chapters. I've been using thriftbooks.com, so it's affordable
| to toss a few dollars away and try again.
| nicbou wrote:
| - Try something entertaining instead of something useful.
| Pick books out of interest, not out of pragmatism or
| obligation. If a book doesn't work for you, try another.
|
| - Make it a special time. Start your bedtime routine early,
| light some candles, make tea and have a go at it. Or sit in a
| nice cafe, or after a nice picnic. I love reading myself to
| sleep, or with tea on the balcony in the morning.
|
| - Remove distractions. I read on a disconnected iPad with no
| internet and no apps except for reading and notetaking.
|
| If you want to put it in productivity-over-everything terms,
| reading before sleep is a really good way to wind down and
| get solid sleep. It's also a great way to build vocabulary,
| get different perspectives, and enjoy idle time without
| doomscrolling.
| dageshi wrote:
| Yeah, don't read "worthy" stuff, or things to enlighten
| yourself, find your particular brand of entertaining trash
| and mindlessly consume it.
|
| I recommend bad litrpg and progression fantasy personally.
| Mother of Learning is a good one to start, it's free on
| royalroad.com or available on Kindle.
| xhkkffbf wrote:
| Absolutely agree. The definition of "worthy" comes from a
| narrow group of haughty English majors. That may be your
| thing, but there's a huge world of non-worthy stuff out
| there.
| prisenco wrote:
| | _Any tips?_
|
| Here's a trick that helped me after a ten+ year hiatus and
| having my attention fried by social media:
|
| A lot of people who have lost their attention span to
| technology will find themselves reading but not absorbing,
| their mind wandering, until they realize they'd "read" 3
| pages and don't remember what happened.
|
| So read slow and with purpose, but most importantly at the
| end of each page, ask yourself what you just read and have a
| conversation with yourself about it. This helped rebuild my
| comprehension and focus. This is similar to how English
| classes will read a book as a class: Reading then discussion,
| reading then discussion. But instead of as a group, do it as
| an internal dialogue.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| Find a nice local book store and go have a look around at
| what looks interesting to you.
| big_whack wrote:
| My reading dropped off for years until I got a kindle. The
| kindle made reading way more convenient and portable. Totally
| changed my life.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I avoided all optional English class in school. But I still
| read at least one book a week, sometimes two.
| bamboozled wrote:
| I never really had any homework, or I never did it. I never
| read for pleasure either. I don't think it's that, but I get
| your point. Too busy = no time for reading for fun
| naasking wrote:
| Not just no time, but making even otherwise fun things
| mandatory with a volume that's overwhelming can suck the fun
| out of it and/or make it seem dull.
| aatd86 wrote:
| Yup. I initially thought that it would be a good idea for
| me to major in Computer Science. For some reason I majored
| in Finance after a few years of electrical engineering
| courses. I don't think I'd be programming today if I had to
| be force fed programming assignments.
| TylerE wrote:
| Computer Science is actually kinda of lousy for teaching
| the things most programmers can do. To the point where if
| I was hiring, I'd rather hire someone who's less
| experienced and self-taught, but with some sort of
| "interesting" background, where "interesting" is almost
| anything that teach's critical thinking about abstract
| concepts and how to articulate ideas. Could be anything
| from a Journalism degree to someone who spent a decade
| working their way up the ranks of a machine shop from
| operator to foreman.
|
| I can tell you the last time I had to write a singly-
| linked list implementation though. October 17th, Nineteen
| Ninety Never.
| aatd86 wrote:
| Well, a singly linked list is actually one of the most
| important data structure I've found :).
|
| From there, one can modify it to implement tries.
|
| And then one can understand trees, arborescences etc.
|
| The rest is about algorithmic complexity (speed and size)
| which I never remember but that's easy to look it up.
|
| It's true that someone who does simple frontend
| engineering (for example) might not need to know too much
| about that.
|
| But for instance, it was just a couple weeks ago that
| I've realized a markov chain is just a bunch of linked
| lists (a DAG, Directed Acyclic Graph).
|
| I've found Computer Science to be a very nice framework
| to think about the world.
| TylerE wrote:
| Yes, but the most important lesson about data structures
| is to let someone smarter than me implement them, and
| just use the widely known, well documented, battled
| tested one.
| foobarian wrote:
| I decided to jump on this bandwagon a while back and
| asked ChatGPT to do some tedious legwork for me with a
| bunch of geo-search primitives. I'll say the CS and
| general CS expertise came in very handy because boy this
| thing was wrong. Not obviously wrong but subtly and
| confidently wrong. :-)
| zikzak wrote:
| Agreed. The things I look for most when hiring
| programmers (assuming they have a resume showing they
| have the skills) are attention to detail, empathy, and
| ability to communicate without feeling like I'm arguing
| all the time or pulling teeth.
|
| Empathy tends to win here: you need to understand why
| people are using the software and how they are using it
| to make good decisions.
|
| Communication tends to be better with people that have
| empathy.
| boringg wrote:
| When can we change our education to promote better educational
| outcomes instead of training for the test or alternatively
| being devoid of fundamental knowledge/skills? It feels like we
| should be progressing in this area much faster then we are. Yes
| - i know - its way to broad of a question.
| kevindamm wrote:
| I'm sure it's more complicated than this but something that
| definitely has had an influence -- when budgets for a school
| district are determined by how many students pass vs being
| left behind, there is an outsized incentive to prepare
| students for the test instead of for more broadly reasoning
| or for enjoying the practice of learning.
| flawsofar wrote:
| Indeed. My love for reading went Gone With The Wind.
| swayvil wrote:
| Some of us determined that school is something to be avoided.
| To squeak through it with absolutely minimal effort. Never do
| the assigned reading. Never do the homework.
|
| Which leaves mountains of free time (an irreplaceable
| commodity, you will agree) for reading whatever the heck you
| like.
|
| I like science fiction.
| zdragnar wrote:
| I had plenty of assigned reading and half-assed it because high
| school classwork was not hard l remotely hard. Writing an
| acceptable book report was trivial with only some brief
| scanning.
|
| I still read for fun, but stuck to fiction.
| somenameforme wrote:
| I had a similar, but different, experience. My issue is that in
| school I approached reading as a task to be completed in the
| most efficient manner possible - consuming as much as I could,
| as rapidly as I could, while ensuring an ability to regurgitate
| on demand. So I never really got to experience the joy of
| _actually_ reading; in many cases I never even actually thought
| about what I was reading. So many books have amazing moral
| tales, metaphors of major events, and so on - yet one can
| completely consume books and remain absolutely clueless to what
| you 're really reading.
|
| Then as I aged, at some point I ended up getting into classical
| literature somehow, and now that I actually "got it" and could
| see and understand what it was saying - beyond the words
| themselves, it became a complete joy to read. For instance
| reading "The Republic" in modern times can make one think Plato
| was a prophet more than a philosopher. Or reading Aristotle's
| "Politics" can give one such an incredible amount of insight
| into thinking in the past, society, and even into your own
| thoughts. Or reading Aurelius' "Meditations" while bearing in
| mind these were the inner thoughts, never meant to be
| published, of not only one of the greatest leaders in history,
| but also arguably the single most powerful man alive at the
| time. It makes reading feel amazing. Another less well known
| example would be The King's Mirror [1]. A Norwegian text from
| 1250 that was a training/philosophy manual, in the form of a
| Q&A, intended for King Magnus VI. Highly recommended.
|
| Now I see things like middle schoolers being assigned Animal
| Farm and I just kind of sigh, though it's not like I can think
| of a better solution!
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konungs_skuggsj%C3%A1
| RealityVoid wrote:
| I fully agree with your point, and your experience is similar
| to mine in a sense.
|
| I got lucky in never "bending" to the task of reading because
| I had to, just reading the school curriculum books if they
| were interesting to me. And I enjoyed reading greatly. But
| some books Ichose to read I slogged through and could not
| enjoy them because of my lack of maturity and perspective.
| Revisiting them revealed a lot more depth. And my reading of
| them grew with my understanding of the world. So I guess the
| experience is normal. And I wonder if I did not slug through
| those books at that time if I would have ever reached the
| insight I had on subsequent reading.
|
| I am certain things from a good book stick with you, even if
| you don't recall it explicitly. It just lingers there in the
| back of your head, like bricks that are piled up on each
| other until you don't see them anymore but you do see the
| wall they form.
| nothercastle wrote:
| It's not just homework it's outside activities... but also the
| time spent at class is often wasted so there are not enough
| hours in the day to do everything.
| godelski wrote:
| > And why read for pleasure if I already spent 30+ minutes
| reading a boring / awful novel as part of my homework?
|
| Not to mention that we're reading right now...
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > Take a closer look at how much homework children have, and
| how much assigned, mandatory reading children have.
|
| Yeah. My nine years old goes to a school where there's no
| homework. She now reads a lot: kids at school all shares any
| cool book they read and then they all want to read it. Today
| she brought back a brick and started reading it. She devours
| book.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Funny, my 4th grader has basically zero homework. She goes to a
| 'good' public school in Silicon Valley, for reference.
| zikzak wrote:
| Same, but in our case he's doing it all in class. The kids
| that can't get it done or choose other activities are taking
| it home.
| nytesky wrote:
| Out elementary and middle schools have a no to low homework
| policy. By high school the most they assign to non AP courses
| is 15 min per class.
|
| Only assignment is reading 30 min a night, any book they want
| (including graphic novels). Yet that does not foster a love of
| reading.
|
| I had a ton of homework, but still read a book a week (though I
| did not do sports, only band, so had way more time than most
| mainstream students in that regard).
|
| My reading waned when I had kids, basically as working parents
| I am always too exhausted to read, I always doze off. So I
| can't set a good example, which I wonder if that is part of the
| problem -- my mom was always reading.
| beaeglebeachh wrote:
| Obtaining information through books is like trying to put out a
| fire by sucking water out through a straw. The printing press was
| great but it's a slow and constrained way to get into from the
| greatest minds. I read voraciously as a child but when I came to
| university I pretty much stopped reading when the experts were
| there to teach in real life using all the senses.
|
| If I were a 9 year old today I'd probably pick YouTube over
| reading. When I built my house I found myself learning way faster
| watching tradesmen and listening to them on YouTube than having
| to suck that information through a tiny straw that is reading a
| book . I find myself truly hating reading now, far too
| inefficient.
| petercooper wrote:
| I read a lot when I was young and a big motivating factor for me
| was the natural progression to reading grown up books and works
| of literature with more interesting plots and subject matter.
| Nowadays, there seems to be more commercially-driven
| infantilization of entertainment where comics and books for kids
| are no longer a stepping stone but an end destination. My
| teenager only reads manga and comics which can be very deep and
| cover mature topics (unlike anything I could get my hands on in
| the 90s) but are still, ultimately, not novels. I haven't decided
| if this is a good or bad thing - it probably just 'is what it is'
| and I'm getting old.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| I agree. Looking back at my own reading as a kid, I worked my
| way through the "age appropriate" material really quickly, in
| part, because those books simply weren't that interesting. They
| were more about learning to read. Once I got through those kids
| books (and I saw them as kids books even when I was a kid), I
| moved to "adult" books as soon as I could because they _are_
| better novels, and I could tell that right away, with more
| complex stories, better characterization, better prose,
| different settings, and a real sense of scale and ambition.
|
| A lot of it comes down to context: my parents were and remain
| voracious readers. They read all the time and have strong
| opinions about books, and I wanted to read what they did and
| have strong opinions about books in the way that they do. That
| sensibility was something they taught and which I grew up in. I
| could just as well see the absence of that having an effect.
| farceSpherule wrote:
| My idea of reading for fun as a kid, and even now, included(s)
| reading technical manuals, research papers, encyclopedia, or
| other materials where I am gaining knowledge.
|
| I have always hated reading fiction and never saw the point in
| wasting time on it. I would prefer to waste that same time on
| watching a movie.
| rossant wrote:
| Ha! Same.
| bdcravens wrote:
| When I was in high school, I was a voracious reader of Star Trek
| novels. I'm now 47 years old, and as a birthday treat, I decided
| to go into Barnes and Nobel to find one to read (I haven't read
| anything other than technology books in many years, and rarely
| even then, since most good information is online)
|
| I found like 2 or 3 (back in the day, there were at least a dozen
| or two to pick from at any time). The sci-fi section was a bit
| smaller, to replace the huge manga and other graphic novels
| section, which was absolutely huge. Many of the sci-fi titles
| that were there were taken up by novels that have been made into
| movies.
| jerojero wrote:
| I had a teacher in school who decided the best thing for people
| to read is to simply have the students choose the book they
| wanted to read for the month.
|
| She'd then read the book and make a short quiz about it. She had
| several classes so she'd have to read a lot of books every month.
| But after a while books start to repeat, after all, kids will
| mostly get together and form groups to read certain novels
| they're interested in. And most of my classmates would all choose
| a sort of "minimal effort" book.
|
| All in all, this is an experience I still remember to this day;
| even though it's been 15 years.
|
| If we want children to read then you need a similar approach, a
| big part of the fun in reading is actually finding a book to
| read. The children should be motivated to find books they want to
| read and then share it with their peers; then perhaps the class
| can decide which of the books they will be reading together.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I'm 40 but I think I know, from personal experience, why kids
| stop reading.
|
| A video game in the 90s was 10x more exciting and immersive than
| most books, to me.
|
| Today it's at insane levels of over-stimulation.
|
| A 30 second tiktok clip can give you the same type of knowledge
| that a 300 page book can, but it cuts to the chase, and doesn't
| bury the lead.
|
| Not only life-lessons or hacks either, teenagers are producing
| entire short stories that follow classical formats of drama and
| comedy.
|
| What we thought was insightful and revolutionary knowledge is now
| conveyed to a 9 year old at breakfast.
| thefaux wrote:
| > A 30 second tiktok clip can give you the same type of
| knowledge that a 300 page book can, but it cuts to the chase,
| and doesn't bury the lead.
|
| Perhaps, but if that is true I highly doubt that you can
| actually absorb the information in 30 seconds. Doubly so if you
| quickly move on to the next thing, as tiktok pushes you to do
| (I guess? haven't used myself).
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| No, a 30 second tiktok clip cannot give you the same type of
| knowledge that a 300 page book can. That is such a silly thing
| to say, that I can only imagine you heard it on tiktok.
| skeaker wrote:
| To play devil's advocate, it has become common to simply read
| a plot synopsis on something like Wikipedia rather than
| engage with the book/movie/show/etc. be it for lack of time
| or interest. This brings one up to speed with the content of
| the media and is often interesting enough to be worth doing
| while also taking 1/1000th of the investment. Such a synopsis
| could be reasonably condensed into a thirty second video.
| Obviously this is not an equivalent experience to engaging
| with a 300 page book, but the information conveyed is
| undeniably the same type of information. Having such
| information packed so densely, if imperfectly, was unheard of
| even twenty years ago.
| pie_flavor wrote:
| Anime is an extremely lucrative market, and Westerners spend an
| absurd amount of money on it, with Hollywood missing out. It's
| not because it's Japanese, or its weirder quirks, it's just
| because Japan is making it and Hollywood isn't, because Hollywood
| is institutionally incapable of believing people want (a) weird
| fantasy (b) that takes itself seriously (c) in quantity over
| quality, or even that adult media can be animated in the first
| place.
|
| I really don't think it's that hard to imagine the same is true
| of manga vs books. The manga section at any serious bookstore is
| the size of 3-4 other sections put together, and it isn't for no
| reason. Even if you assume it's a graphic-novel-specific
| preference, for every one Western hit like _Bone_ , there's fifty
| more equally massive hits out of Japan, because they simply try
| more often. Authors making weird stuff in the West are unable to
| enter traditional publishing (with the industry learning the
| exact wrong thing from the YA phenomenon) and frequently settle
| for a web serial + Patreon model, whereas if they were in Japan
| there's a well established light novel to manga to anime to movie
| pipeline.
| Filligree wrote:
| Hollywood also appears institutionally capable of making movies
| where the actors enunciate properly, where the effect
| soundtrack isn't louder than the speech, and where nobody is
| mumbling.
|
| I've given up on them. Sure, fine, that's not how people talk
| in real life. Whatever. I want to hear what they have to say,
| otherwise what's even the point?
| rsync wrote:
| Tangent: if your 8-9-10 year old loved Bone, a great follow up
| is usagi yojimbo.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| I love graphic novels but have almost no interest in
| superheroes, so I'm very thankful to Japan for hard carrying
| the industry in that regard. You can find Manga about pretty
| much any topic and level of sophistication.
| tstrimple wrote:
| I was thrilled when Love Death & Robots came out on Netflix. I
| hoped mature animation would pick up a bit in western media.
| That didn't happen unfortunately.
|
| The pipeline you mention has been a key factor in my kids
| learning to enjoy reading. They went from anime to manga
| because the manga often runs ahead of the anime and they wanted
| more from the world. Then they started reading more novels.
| They skipped the light novel step, likely because there's very
| little availability at Barnes & Noble or local used book
| stores.
|
| When the local theater runs Studio Ghibli or anime like Your
| Name I make a point to go even though I'm not too fond of the
| theater experience these days because I want more!
| dehugger wrote:
| Weird stuff in the west exists, but lives as amateur/fan
| fiction online, with patreon being the big funding method. I
| believe this is directly due to publishers hesitance to touch
| anything "weird", just like you said with Hollywood.
| skeaker wrote:
| I'd revise (c) to just "in quantity." They're able to throw a
| lot out to see what sticks, and while a lot of it doesn't, some
| of it really does.
| blindriver wrote:
| I'm in my 50s and I used to read a lot for pleasure when I was a
| kid. I still remember reading Lord of the Rings or Watership Down
| over an entire weekend, with my mom yelling at me to stop reading
| and eat dinner, etc. Books like To Kill a Mockingbird and Catcher
| in the Rye changed my life as a youth.
|
| I stopped reading fiction after I graduated college because I
| simply didn't care anymore, it was like an off switch. Unless it
| was a computer or finance textbook, I simply didn't care to read.
| There was a brief hiatus after reading Moneyball and Blind Side
| which fascinated me for some reason, and I haven't read non-
| textbooks since then either. I think part of it was that I read
| so many bad fiction books I didn't want to waste my time taking a
| chance when I could be programming or learning more directly.
| araes wrote:
| The situation with kids is an issue. However, about the mean
| attacks online mentioned in the article, the American Library
| Association president, unfortunately made a rather poorly chosen
| quote at almost the inflection point they're describing, in April
| 2022. Arizona, Idaho, Illinois, Georgia, Louisiana, South
| Carolina and Wyoming pushed to withdraw from the ALA after the
| quote. Per [1], on being elected, Drabinski wrote:
|
| > "I just cannot believe that a Marxist lesbian who believes that
| collective power is possible to build and can be wielded for a
| better world is the president-elect of @ALALibrary"
|
| Sure, it's a single tweet. It mentions a better world. However, I
| also suspect most normal Americans with slight sense of political
| winds right now (Ukraine, Feb, 2024?? 2 months?) might comprehend
| why labeling yourself as a "Marxist lesbian" who "wields
| collective power" might be taken wrong by some of America on
| being elected to lead all American libraries.
|
| I used to work for/with the Feds, and I think they would have
| been justifiably mad if I had very publicly announced I was a
| Marxist who wields power in the Feds on election.
|
| [1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/american-library-
| associ...
| kazinator wrote:
| > _crisis point for publishers_
|
| Now _there_ is something to care about: whether your kid reading
| or not is good for publishers.
|
| People reading old second-hand books, even if voraciously, is
| also bad for publishers.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| The title refers to "book people" not because we should care
| what's good or bad for them, but because they might know more
| about the topic.
| eitally wrote:
| I think there are perhaps trends, but at the end of the day this
| phenomenon ends up being individual. I have three kids - 7, 13,
| and 15 - and they're all different. The older two read
| voraciously from 2nd grade (when they first picked up Harry
| Potter after finishing the Magic Treehouse series) through middle
| school. My oldest doesn't read as much anymore, but it's largely
| because he's too busy and ends up too tired to concentrate on
| books when he does have downtime. My middle (7th grade) still
| reads constantly and we've run out of bookshelf space for all the
| series we've purchased over the past couple of years. My youngest
| is in 1st grade and just started her chapter book reading journey
| this school year. Now she reads while she eats her meals and
| reads to herself every day. We take her to the public library
| every couple of weeks to refresh.
|
| Two things to bear in mind: my wife & I also love reading and we
| have a house full of books. We've also prioritized reading to,
| and around, our children from the time they were infants. Even
| today I frequently wake my kids by reading aloud to them.
| allemagne wrote:
| There's no good reason to think it's not phones.
|
| The article kind of rejects this out of hand but I think it's
| mostly because that doesn't make for an article that touches on
| all the other topics the author wanted to write about.
|
| >It might be screens, but it's not only screens. It's not like
| kids are suddenly getting their own phones at age 9; recent
| survey data from Common Sense Media reveals that phone ownership
| holds steady, at around 30 percent, among kids aged 8 and 9. (It
| isn't until they reach 11 or 12 that the majority of American
| kids have their own phone.) Indeed, several people I spoke to
| mentioned that middle-graders' _lack_ of phones created a
| marketing problem in an era when no one at any publishing house
| has any idea how to make a book a bestseller other than to hope
| it blows up on TikTok.
|
| So there's an uptick in reading for fun when the majority of 12
| year olds have phones, allowing publishers to learn how to market
| to them? I really doubt it. Couldn't find anything supporting
| that in the Scholastic report where "decline by 9" comes from:
| https://www.scholastic.com/readingreport/navigate-the-world....
|
| I think they're misinterpreting the Common Sense Media info they
| cite:
| https://www.commonsensemedia.org/sites/default/files/researc...
|
| Age 8 is as far back as that data goes. If phone ownership
| started shooting up by 8, for example, it would make sense that
| it would take about a year for the reading habit to die off as
| much as it does.
| throwaway11460 wrote:
| I had a phone since I was 8-9, and I used it to read under the
| table in class and everywhere else.
|
| Wasn't the only one. We used infrared port to share books with
| other kids.
| nicbou wrote:
| Why wouldn't it be phones?
|
| I could read right now, but instead I'm on my nth round of the
| Hacker News front page. Reading competes against instant
| gratification, and it doesn't win as often as I'd like it to.
| Reading requires discipline when scrolling is an option.
| xandrius wrote:
| Isn't HN mainly text? Aren't you reading?
| xandrius wrote:
| I hated reading even before phones were "cool", I just didn't
| find it the best medium for me.
|
| Now I still hate the act of reading but it's often eclipsed by
| the joy I get from acquiring new knowledge.
|
| So no, it doesn't need to be phones.
| fatnoah wrote:
| As the parent of a 16 year old, I find this discussion
| fascinating. My son used to love reading books, from when we
| started with the "Bob Books" in Kindergarten, through somewhere
| around 5th or 6th grade.
|
| He still loves reading, but mostly for items of topical interest.
| He does it for fun, to entertain himself, and to learn new
| things...but it's not books! He scarfs up online content like
| it's going out of style.
|
| TBH, I had no idea just how much he was reading until I paid
| attention to how much mispronounced advanced vocabulary he was
| using, which was a sign of seeing and not hearing the words. The
| other evidence is just how well he does on crosswords, Wordle,
| etc. The vocabulary is definitely there.
|
| All of this is to say that the article seems to focus on "books"
| rather than "content." Are kids not reading for fun, or are they
| not reading _books_ for fun?
| philomath_mn wrote:
| It is a good question, but reading 400 pages of content is not
| the same as reading a book.
|
| Books are (usually) the product of intentional long-form
| writing along with heavy editing and review. The ideas per unit
| of a book are usually more polished than the ideas in a similar
| sized unit of online content.
|
| (not criticizing your kid btw, sounds like he is doing great).
| nothercastle wrote:
| Part of the solution should be going to every free library near a
| school or playground and filling them with a bunch of first books
| in a series. I know my kids got hooked on looks of books that way
| rossant wrote:
| My older son is 8 and is finishing Harry Potter #5. I hope he'll
| still enjoy reading after he turns 9.
| darepublic wrote:
| I remember lugging along a copy of The Idiot by Dostoyevsky with
| me to read on the subway and feeling like it made me an
| intellectual badass. I still treasure the memory of the classic
| lit I read but I very rarely get any pleasure reading in now.
| This trend among youth is worrying but seems part of an
| accelerated mutation of our culture
| vasco wrote:
| There's also an epidemic of kids not listening to the radio, but
| nobody has questions about why.
| nothercastle wrote:
| There aren't any spaces left to take your kid to look at books.
| Without access to internet the only option is the public library
| but books there are often not displayed in a way that would draw
| new readers in
| boring-alterego wrote:
| I was turned off to reading in 7th grade by a teacher that
| required mandatory books that were her favorites but the topics
| consisted of 1800s gilded age parties, gossip amongst the upper
| class of people at that time and absolutely no fantasy or
| adventure.
|
| Before that I was the top reader in the summer reading program
| going back to first grade highest in the school for each grade
| level. After that class I kind of fell out of the practice of
| reading to enjoy books until I was out of college.
|
| I picked up the habit of reading and listening to audiobooks in
| 2014 3 years after college because I was doing a lot of 6-8 hour
| drives between my home town and a vendor for a project.
|
| If I could say one thing to that teacher, just because you like a
| book, forcing someone else to read that book doesn't make it a
| good book for that person.
| nickd2001 wrote:
| Age 9 is about time to get into "The Hobbit". That might save
| some people ;). Or Terry Pratchet''s "Truckers" ? So much utterly
| fantastic kids literature out there, most of it not at all new.
| tmaly wrote:
| You can't discount things like Roblox and online video as being
| part to blame.
|
| But overall I do think kids have too much homework and projects
| to have time for leisure reading.
| an_aparallel wrote:
| people give up reading the same reason they give up anything
| "hard". The combination of "prescribed texts" and "bad pedagogy".
| When i self teach...i start a book...downloaded immediately from
| libgen, if it sucks, i trash it, and download another
| immediately...if the author is not a time wasting hack, guess
| what? I'll buy that book immediately, having found the correct
| resource. It pains me to read what the most recommended books are
| for learning most hard subjects - they are generally on the poor
| side...they are generally not written as simply as possible. Yes
| - this is a hugely opinionated response.
|
| Onto method - If the method in which it's taught is
| garbage/pedagogically horseshit...of course they will hate it.
| Learn maths with Paul Lockhart, or computer science from the
| ground up playing Turing Complete (on Steam)...or learning
| ANYTHING from someone like Brett Victor..and you'll see precisely
| the issue is with not just reading for fun, but doing any
| socially uncool thing like exercising the intellect.
| eslaught wrote:
| How many people here are commenting based on their kids'
| experiences and not based on their own? Nothing in a 4 year-old
| trend (or whatever it is at this point) is going to be
| anticipated by people who were that age 10, 20, 30 years ago.
| (Sorry folks.)
|
| My kids are just short of this age, so this article is very
| topical for me. I'm trying to encourage them to read, and they
| do, but it's also been difficult (in my experience) to make the
| transition to "big" books (i.e., anything other than a graphic
| novel). Books that I am 99% sure I read by their age, they don't
| seem to be responding to---and not just those books specifically,
| but anything in that class. And my kids have very low screen
| time.
| bawolff wrote:
| > But others also pointed to the way reading is being taught to
| young children in an educational environment that gets more and
| more test-focused all the time.
|
| Seems like there would be an easy way to test this - do we see
| the same decline in other countries with different educational
| systems?
| mik1998 wrote:
| > Traditionally, middle-grade book discovery happens via parents,
| librarians, and--most crucially--peers. At recess, your best
| friend tells you that you have got to read the Baby-Sitters Club,
| and boom, you're hooked
|
| I've never experienced this in my school life. Used to be the one
| guy who spends all of his time helping out and reading at the
| school library back in elementary school. Later in high-school, I
| stopped reading as much due to the appearance of the computer in
| my life, which had great things like the Internet and such.
|
| If you spend all your time on TikTok, I feel like it's unlikely
| you'd read too much.
| ethanholt1 wrote:
| Whenever I was about 9-10, I used to love reading books, and I
| read about 1-3 full novels a month. Whenever I graduated
| elementary school and went into middle school, the required
| reading that was assigned left me to have no more time reading
| what I found interesting, which eventually led to me just losing
| my interest in books.
| bennettnate5 wrote:
| I remember Scholastic would put on a big book fair twice a school
| year in our school's library. There would be tons of new/upcoming
| book series marketed that kids could buy (with their parent's
| money), along with the obligatory custom bookmarks and kid-
| oriented stationary. It targeted 8 to 12 year olds--maybe that
| was the practice pre-covid and booksellers have moved away from
| that sort of thing?
| o11c wrote:
| One thing I definitely noticed with COVID (not specific to
| libraries and book fairs): a lot of older volunteers stopped
| volunteering for good - basically "retired" now rather than
| later. Alone that would imply the situation fixes itself as new
| volunteers age in, but that's also the loss of a lot of
| institutional knowledge ...
|
| Unrelated to COVID, our local library was recently taken over
| by a young new librarian who seemed to make it a goal to
| actively drive away literally all the old library community.
|
| There was also a proposal to build a new library with a builtin
| homeless shelter or something ... which is exactly the opposite
| of helping, since the predominance of "homeless people" is a
| major reason patrons avoid the library already.
| imgabe wrote:
| They need to bring back the scholastic book fair! Or is that
| still a thing? We also had Pizza Hut giving us free pizza for
| reading books.
|
| I read a lot as a kid, to the point where I got in trouble in
| class for reading a book instead of paying attention. I'm trying
| to think about why, but I don't think it was any outside push. I
| don't remember most of my peers reading so much.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Anecdotal (from NL): I had access to a library end of 80s/90s.
| Everything mandatory wasn't fun, but had to be done. Providing a
| small, meaningful choice would've been more fun. Comics and non-
| fiction for kids was available, but if you did not like fiction
| then you are kind of hosed. I 'never' (esp in early youth) liked
| fiction because I could not easily imagine the story, or it just
| did not interest me. It wasn't real, so I couldn't see the point
| of it. My weakness for sure, but if I had access to more/better
| informational non-fiction I would've read it like the info sponge
| I was. And having fun while doing so.
|
| I remember very well when I was about 8 or 9, I always lost the
| trail when we did group reading at school (each kid one
| sentence). And then I got punished for that. Also not very... let
| us say encouraging.
|
| Nowadays, I'm still not much of a fiction sucker, but I've come
| to enjoy quite some fiction. Just not in time for high school,
| and even then I liked books which weren't for my age or my gender
| or whatever.
|
| If my kids don't like certain fiction, I won't force it upon
| them. I want them to read, and will try with suggestions and what
| not but if they really do not like fiction, forcing it upon them
| won't help.
|
| I just hope they won't waste their time on something as useless
| and nefarious as TikTok. One could argue that is the comics or TV
| series of the 21th century. Well, even if TikTok were harmless to
| health and a great application, comics or TV series didn't
| profile you for an authoritarian state.
|
| EDIT:
|
| > Yet, somehow, reading persists; more books are sold today than
| were sold before the pandemic
|
| This does not mean, at all, that [all] these books are _read_.
| Terrible assumption.
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