[HN Gopher] Microsoft CTO: Thoughts on OpenAI (2019)
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Microsoft CTO: Thoughts on OpenAI (2019)
Author : mfiguiere
Score : 172 points
Date : 2024-05-05 17:50 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| kd913 wrote:
| Curious how Bill Gates is still main cced? Does he still play a
| significant role in the control of Microsoft?
| scrlk wrote:
| He's still influential behind the scenes - there was a recent
| article published about it:
| https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-still-pulling-str...
| (https://archive.ph/VmtON)
|
| > Current and former executives say Gates remains intimately
| involved in the company's operations -- advising on strategy,
| reviewing products, recruiting high-level executives, and
| nurturing Microsoft's crucial relationship with Sam Altman, the
| cofounder and CEO of OpenAI.
|
| > "What you read is not what's happening in reality," another
| Microsoft executive said. "Satya and the entire senior
| leadership team lean on Gates very significantly. His opinion
| is sought every time we make a major change."
| godzillabrennus wrote:
| If true it would explain why Microsoft keeps getting better
| while Google management seems to ignore the founders and
| keeps getting worse.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I don't think it's so much that Google ignores the
| founders, so much as the founders are ignoring Google.
|
| I was at G when L&S stepped away, and it really just felt
| that leading up to that, they'd become completely
| disinterested. S, especially, seemed completely out of
| touch. And L just tired.
| foobarian wrote:
| BG is a shrewd, cutthroat businessman on top of having a
| tech background. I think he's far different from L&S in
| that respect. But yeah it helps he hasn't disengaged as
| well.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Google would have probably been better off if Eric
| Schmidt had stayed engaged.
|
| I don't like the guy's opinions on many things, but he
| was pretty good at keeping the ship headed in generally
| the right direction.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Or any direction? I couldn't tell what the direction of
| Google was if I had to.
| anyfactor wrote:
| I don't think Larry and Sergey is on the same level as
| Bill Gates. Solo founders who have raised to and led a
| big tech company is a different breed. I would pick Jeff
| Bezos, Zuck and Larry Ellison on the same level of Bill
| Gates. They don't manage day 2 day but big strategies
| don't go through without their blessing. Even though you
| can say Bill does not manage, the top level executives
| will always think "what would Bill do" or "what would
| Bill think about this".
| shuckles wrote:
| Bill Gates co-founded Microsoft with Paul Allen. If
| anything, Paul Allen was the instigator.
| lionkor wrote:
| Which of their products is getting better?
| kranke155 wrote:
| They're executing better.
|
| Microsoft has never made great products with some
| exceptions.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| Microsoft makes "good enough" products that integrate
| smoothly. That's what enterprises want and smaller
| vendors can't provide by their very nature.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Some exceptions like Windows, Office and Xbox?
| paxys wrote:
| This was sent in 2019, when Gates was still chairman of the
| board at Microsoft and involved day to day as technical advisor
| to the CEO. Post 2021 he has no official role at the company.
| a1o wrote:
| People actually use Mail in Windows 10?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Probably millions of people.
|
| Us nerds need to habitually self-remind that we're a sliver of
| the total user base and our experience and needs are not
| representative."
| a1o wrote:
| I use Outlook, not super nerdy, idnk
| sincerely wrote:
| If you're reading HN, you're so much nerdier than the
| average software user that the existence of super nerds is
| irrelevant
| vorticalbox wrote:
| I think this was more a generalisation about HN as a whole
| than directed at you.
| Philip-J-Fry wrote:
| I did, it was a genuinely good little lightweight UWP email
| app. Now they've turned it into a bloated ad-ridden Outlook
| webview app.
| teekert wrote:
| Was gonna say, I wonder if he still uses it now that it is
| that Outlook thing :)
|
| I've been helping people to Thunderbird. Most people are
| like: Mail>Thunderbird>New Outlook thingy. Good enough for me
| ;)
| SunlitCat wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, Thunderbird is awesome for what it is
| (and the Mail thingy was kinda perfect as a lightweight
| mail client) but Thunderbird has some rough edges.
|
| Like it took me long until I figured out how to show
| message size, filter by date and then sort it by message
| size. Of course, the Mail thingy wasn't able to do
| something like that, but I remember waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back,
| that Communicator (that Mail program which came with
| Netscape / Mozilla) was way simpler to use than
| Thunderbird. But maybe my memories are hazy as this was
| like ~15 - ~20 years ago.
| TillE wrote:
| I'm guessing that happened almost exactly a year ago, which
| is when I was astonished to find that they'd junked up their
| perfectly good Weather app with ads.
|
| Microsoft does plenty of cool things these days, but it's
| bizarre how they're pushing these little Windows monetization
| efforts like it's some garbage F2P mobile game.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| I remember liking it when I found the app.
|
| But then I had to use the web interface to do anything with
| filters, so when I had to reinstall Windows I didn't bother
| configuring it again. And now everything is on Teams anyway.
| m_a_g wrote:
| I don't know a single techie person who uses Windows (other
| than for gaming), let alone Mail in Windows.
|
| But the other replies are right. We're not really
| representative of the entire population, especially if you
| consider the developing world.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| This phenomenon of software engineers using MacBooks for work
| is a rare and primarily coastal phenomenon, at least in North
| America. Virtually all software engineering at utility
| companies, hospitals, state and local governments, and
| similarly boring but critical enterprise companies in
| industries like insurance happens on Windows on Azure using
| Windows or Microsoft oriented stacks.
| hsdropout wrote:
| >Windows on Azure
|
| Lol, citation needed if you actually believe this.
|
| >or Microsoft oriented stacks.
|
| is a very complicated way to say Windows desktop.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| Re windows desktop, no, it's not a complicated way of
| saying that. I am talking about, for example:
|
| - ASP.NET Core backends running on anything (e.g. Linux)
|
| - Angular or Vue frontends running on anything
|
| - applications using SQL Server databases running on
| anything
|
| - applications targeting on-prem Windows servers or VMs
| or, sure, Windows desktops
|
| - data / reporting systems that interact with AAS
| asmor wrote:
| Microsoft sales is surprisingly good at selling Azure to
| c-level at companies where the primary output isn't
| software, based on existing Windows/Office deployments.
| Unfortunately also true for Teams. Retailers are also
| often opposed to AWS because they consider Amazon a
| competitor in its entirety.
| mvdtnz wrote:
| Just so you know this is a very ignorant comment. I don't
| mean that as an insult, but literally you are ignorant of
| the facts. If you care you should use this opportunity to
| educate yourself on the state of the Microsoft stack.
| SunlitCat wrote:
| This is something "bothering" me as well. It's either Mac
| or Linux if you want to be "cool" in tech.
|
| I am always like "wait do you not write any Windows
| software or is it all on the Web"?
|
| Maybe I am ignorant and stuff and maybe it's just bothering
| me. :)
| asmor wrote:
| Windows computers tend to also get the most overreaching
| invasive MDM / Endpoint Slowdown Software.
| SunlitCat wrote:
| Can't say for Windows, but at work I manage a bunch of
| iPads with JAMF and it's really comfy to use.
| oooyay wrote:
| I write applications for Linux, MacOS, and Windows but I
| use cross-compiling frameworks like Wails or Tauri to do
| so. If I write in Windows Forms (old Xamarin forms) then
| my application only works on Windows. MacOS is similar.
| All of my development occurs in Linux as a result.
| tikhonj wrote:
| There's a lot of work that is neither Windows software
| _nor_ web. And much (most?) of that runs on Linux.
| oooyay wrote:
| I, personally, would not chalk that up to a phenomenon.
| Operating System selection largely depends on the work you
| do paired with the industry you're in. Some extrapolations:
|
| I work in systems engineering for web technology companies.
| Most of the applications I build run on Linux so it makes
| sense to write on a Unix like OS. I could use Linux or
| MacOS, but Apple has a strong preconfiguration and leasing
| pipeline so usually the companies I work for offer MacBooks
| Pros.
|
| When I was building software in the US South I would have
| to look out for companies that were Windows shops because I
| don't do Windows systems engineering and there were an
| abundance of shops that did before the .NET Core rewrite
| that enabled you to run on Linux. Those shops would've
| definitely shipped me a Windows laptop. Anecdotally, I buy
| servers out of a DC in Houston and nearly all of them come
| with Windows Datacenter edition. Most of those companies
| fell into certain industries that didn't include what I
| typically worked in.
|
| That's all to say, region can be roughly correlated, but
| it's not the _actual_ reason. It largely has to do with who
| sold who the software stack they have trouble moving off of
| today which influences everything else.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| Note that my comment was observational, I'm not saying
| companies should use Windows, and I'm not even talking
| about reasons for using one tech stack or another. I'm
| just reminding the parent that this association of
| Windows with "non-technical" is nonsense -- lots of
| extremely talented folks work on difficult and important
| problems and critical systems on Windows, targeting
| Microsoft stacks. Further, it seems likely that most
| software is written on Windows.
| oooyay wrote:
| Yeap, that's all fair. I was mainly poking at your word
| choice of "phenomenon" because it can be reasoned. I'm
| not quite sure about your last sentence but that's an
| entirely different discussion with much more noise than
| signal to parse through.
| yen223 wrote:
| "Phenomenon" just means "thing that can be observed". It
| doesn't need to mean something that is unusual or
| surprising.
| oooyay wrote:
| Huh; according to Merriam-Webster the word has basically
| lost meaning: https://www.merriam-
| webster.com/dictionary/phenomenon
|
| The first definition is how you and OP used it, the
| second is how I used it (exclusive of things that can be
| "sensed" as opposed to reasoned).
| erhaetherth wrote:
| I both game and program on Windows. I don't know what people
| are crying about. I've got Docker. I've got WSL. I've got a
| high quality IDE (IntelliJ). Everything works and runs great.
|
| I also run Debian at work and that's also perfectly good for
| writing code, just not gaming.
|
| But no, I don't use Mail in Windows. I've been using Gmail
| since it came out in 2004....and was perfectly happy with it
| until just this second. I just found an email from 2004
| wherein I had emailed myself a project, and Gmail has blocked
| it because it thinks it's a virus. The solution? Export the
| EML and open it in Mail on Windows. Funny.
| KronisLV wrote:
| > I don't know a single techie person who uses Windows (other
| than for gaming)
|
| I'd say that Windows actually has some nice software, like
| MobaXTerm: https://mobaxterm.mobatek.net/ which in my eyes is
| better than Remmina or pretty much anything I've found on
| nix, short of just running the same thing on Wine.
|
| WinSCP is also pretty cool, albeit nothing particularly
| special: https://winscp.net/eng/index.php
|
| PowerToys (and other customization software) also make the OS
| feel more pleasant to use, especially with something like
| FancyZones which feels nicer to use than the window snapping
| in XFCE or Cinnamon: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
| us/windows/powertoys/
|
| WSL2 actually seems nice to use and even Hyper-V is pleasant.
|
| The vertical taskbar in Windows 10 worked better out of the
| box than my current customized Cinnamon desktop.
|
| Oh also the task manager is really nice and the Linux remake
| does tend to eat resources:
| https://github.com/KrispyCamel4u/SysMonTask
|
| There's probably more nice things that someone can say about
| Windows and personally I don't mind doing development on it
| because most of my software works on it anyways (VSC,
| JetBrains IDEs, GitKraken, Docker, browsers etc.), but Linux
| distros do feel better for that particular type of work
| otherwise.
|
| On the other hand, even with Proton, I still enjoy gaming on
| Windows more, far less of a hassle and curiously the graphics
| control panels seem to mostly only be available on Windows
| and something like CoreCtrl on Linux isn't always good enough
| (e.g. if I ever want to set a power limit for the GPU
| easily).
|
| I really don't want to deal with Windows 11 though (which is
| inevitable because of updates and also work computer) and I
| have very few positive things to say about Windows Server,
| however. But hey, even .NET now works on RHEL/Ubuntu and
| other popular distros, so Microsoft tech stacks also feel
| decidedly more sane, in addition to something like C# just
| being a decent language in general.
|
| That said, Thunderbird runs everywhere and does so well, so
| for me, it's the obvious choice.
| layer8 wrote:
| Regarding techie people not using Windows, you're living in a
| bubble.
| SunlitCat wrote:
| I did, till they took it from my claws and tried to convince to
| use that Outlook thing. :(
|
| It was kinda perfect for peeking into mails, deleting a few,
| answering some other and stuff. Not a great client to do your
| business communication, but to drop someone a quick mail, it
| was neat.
| kristianp wrote:
| Funny to see Satya using it. You'd think he'd be on the full
| Outlook. Maybe it's a case of dogfooding.
| cm2187 wrote:
| To me the biggest news is not that he is using Mail on Windows
| but that he is using Windows. You wouldn't tell that the CEO of
| the company is using the product given how badly they let it
| decay.
| layer8 wrote:
| I'm more surprised he doesn't seem to know basic comma rules.
| jasode wrote:
| To add more context, about a month later after Kevin Scott's
| email...
|
| July 12, 2019 OpenAI announces Microsoft's $1 billion investment
|
| - https://openai.com/index/microsoft-invests-in-and-partners-w...
|
| - https://news.microsoft.com/2019/07/22/openai-forms-exclusive...
|
| It was interesting how K Scott was objective and candid about
| Microsoft's internal ai efforts falling behind but also phrasing
| the email diplomatically to not criticize anyone. It's
| interesting to see some of the behind-the-scenes thinking.
| hosh wrote:
| I don't think they want a repeat of missing out on web and then
| mobile again.
| omeze wrote:
| Was gonna say, the email reads similarly to this famous
| thread about Java (with the old CTO of MS!):
| https://www.techemails.com/p/bill-gates-im-literally-
| losing-...
|
| Really makes you think about the structure of mega corps and
| how powerful the "defender's advantage" is. These giants
| knowingly sleep on disruption and wait to time their entry,
| and are generally rewarded. I dont know if its good or bad,
| it probably depends, but I think the capitalism game devs
| need some balance tweaks.
| vikramkr wrote:
| Are they generally rewarded? Wondering is there are
| statistics on that because the narrative is usually that
| defenders end up unable to compete even with technologies
| they themselves invented and die out, with maybe apple and
| Microsoft recently breaking that trend.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I think in the long term Google could still win the AI
| wars. They're behind right now but they have the talent,
| money, and infrastructure to win. That said, I would
| absolutely not bet on it. I sold almost all of my GOOG.
| FredPret wrote:
| The defender's advantage only counts if the corporation is
| run by people smart enough to do something about it.
|
| History is littered with out-innovated companies that are
| gone or clinging to relevance. Xerox, IBM, cable companies,
| telephone companies, every train company ever. All had a
| huge opportunity to disrupt their own business model and
| make even more money, almost none of them managed it.
| pavlov wrote:
| Microsoft didn't miss out on the web. They won it so
| thoroughly that they assumed it was theirs to keep and
| stopped competing.
| Keyframe wrote:
| Seems we collectively forgot about IE era.
| mepian wrote:
| They did fall behind initially, before "The Internet Tidal
| Wave" memo was written and Microsoft fully mobilized to
| fight Netscape.
| ttul wrote:
| It's fair to say that the CTO's job is to make sure Microsoft
| never misses a trend. Their number one existential threat is a
| new tech trend that makes their existing model fail. Whether
| that thing is the rise of smart phones or generative AI, Kevin
| Scott's job is to give early warning.
| Keyframe wrote:
| That's what struck me as well. It's extremely important for
| such positions to be clear and open about their position and
| not masking their reality. You'll often find marketing speak
| internally between levels which masks truth and then hinders
| actual strategic moves. In this context CTO would've said
| they're not that far off, if only this and that.. but no, he
| fessed up and CEO also understood; raw awareness.
| tambourine_man wrote:
| I don't understand why large companies use email for such
| important topics knowing that they can be required by law to
| disclosure them in the future.
|
| I know that large companies have email retention laws, but why
| not just keep sensitive topics on Signal or similar?
| neeh0 wrote:
| becasue it can be interpreted as acting against the company in
| first place
| Eridrus wrote:
| They are definitely doing more of that, but it's not always a
| get our of jail free card, and may actually put them at legal
| risk for destroying documents:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/26/24141801/ftc-amazon-antit...
|
| https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/05/judge-mulls-sanc...
| tambourine_man wrote:
| Not being allowed secrets by law is such a weird concept
| riscy wrote:
| It's not weird for a publicly traded company.
| Eridrus wrote:
| I find it weird that these get released as public records,
| but otherwise, laws against destroying evidence seem fine.
| And laws requiring disclosure of documents in a court to
| determine wrongdoing also seem fine. And laws requiring
| proper record keeping of decision making at large companies
| also seem fine. Particularly when the burden of record
| keeping (ensuring emails are not deleted) is not very
| large.
| krebby wrote:
| They write these emails knowing that they'll be public record
| at some point. The audience is as much internal as it is for
| the history books. The details get hashed out offline, while
| the record gets preserved as an email
| layer8 wrote:
| Retention laws are neutral towards technical protocols. They
| apply to instant messaging and electronic chats just the same.
| hsdropout wrote:
| Previous submission from 4 days ago:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40226114
| avi_vallarapu wrote:
| It is probably an observation and a forecast at the right time. I
| remember my days at one of the Top Home and Enterprise PC
| manufacturing companies over 15 years ago, when there was
| criticism around Smart phones.
|
| People laughed assuming that a smart phone is of no use and
| people prefer a PC or a laptop. Everything else is history.
|
| What is important at all times is the timing and Identifying
| something that can change the world at the right time.
|
| This is where the Top Leadership roles come into play. Identify
| the gaps and introduce the immediate action plan to make the best
| of the best.
| sahila wrote:
| Sure and not to discredit your observation, but what other
| observations have you made in the last 5 years that didn't pan
| out? Regarding politics, sports, stock market, covid, or other
| tech trends? The evaluation can't be looking back, and if
| you're right about 1/10 things, would that warrant a $1b
| investment in each?
| daseiner1 wrote:
| Parent comment doesn't claim to have predicted the rise of
| smartphones.
|
| If you truly had a bankable 10% success rate, $1B on each
| spin would be a steal.
| SunlitCat wrote:
| It's an interesting read. Especially if you consider that all it
| needs today is llama.cpp and a model of your choosing from
| huggingface.
|
| (Okay Okay, granted it takes a bit more and someone had to train
| those models, but point it, the fear from way back seems to
| be....dunno.)
| riscy wrote:
| If you can't train the model, you don't really have control
| over a product based on it.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| You can easily kill ambition or by requiring everything to go
| into slow processes, no freedom, and corporate politics.
|
| If there's any ambition left, it won't be for that company.
| phkahler wrote:
| Knowing how something is done can be quite different from knowing
| all that it really takes to make it happen.
| fortenforge wrote:
| These emails were released as part of the antitrust lawsuit
| against Google currently being pursued by the FTC. It seems to me
| that contrary to the FTC's claims about how Google's monopoly
| power leads it to stop innovating, exactly the opposite is true.
| If Google had stopped innovating it's clear that Bing eventually
| would have caught up in terms of quality. As these emails make
| clear though, Google kept its lead by continuing to invest in
| cutting-edge AI research.
|
| Indeed, if anything it's Microsoft who should be scrutinized.
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