[HN Gopher] The IMEI Code: Your phone's other number
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The IMEI Code: Your phone's other number
        
       Author : shortformblog
       Score  : 261 points
       Date   : 2024-04-29 18:39 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (tedium.co)
 (TXT) w3m dump (tedium.co)
        
       | BuildTheRobots wrote:
       | Couple of thoughts
       | 
       | > The combination of the ICCID and the IMSI basically tells the
       | mobile network, "hey, this person paid for a plan."
       | 
       | As far as I remember, the ICCID never actually appears in
       | standard network messaging. It might be possible for the network
       | to request it, but it's not part of a standard 2/3/4/5g attach.
       | 
       | The piece seemed to miss two major uses for the IMEI (or I missed
       | it when reading), which were working around vendor bugs and
       | allowing emergency calling.
       | 
       | Radio firmware and state machines have always had weird bugs, and
       | even when it conforms to standards (some of which are extremely
       | interpretable), does very weird things in the real world. Pre-
       | smartphone, being able to update phone and radio firmware was
       | extremely rare, so it was common for the networks instead to
       | implement workarounds on a manufacturer or handset basis. Having
       | a hardware ID that identified this was extremely useful.
       | 
       | GSM (and onward) actually supports a handset attaching to a
       | network, even without a SIM card, for the sake of emergency
       | calling. It needs some form of unique identifier for this to
       | work. As much as it could (potentially, entirely redefining the
       | stack) generated UUIDs, it makes some sense for these unique IDs
       | to persist across roaming/sessions/reboots.
        
         | heilhippo wrote:
         | https://arcelect.com/GSM%20Developer%20Guide%20-%20GSM%20AT%...
        
           | lxgr wrote:
           | These are AT commands, which specify (one way of)
           | communication between a modem or phone and a PC, or maybe a
           | smartphone OS and a baseband.
           | 
           | The phone/baseband doesn't talk to the network in AT
           | commands.
        
             | heilhippo wrote:
             | In theory it doesn't, in practice it does.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | No, it doesn't.
               | 
               | AT commands also don't make it onto your phone line,
               | after all. They're for communication between a host and a
               | modem/baseband, not between a host and another host or
               | even two modems.
        
           | sumtechguy wrote:
           | The AT commands are usually used at call establish time, but
           | can be used at other times to query the status of the modem.
           | AT commands never go into the network that is a different set
           | of standards. They are only used on the modem in your phone.
           | If you can get on the right serial pin on the modem you can
           | issue AT commands to the modem and it will do all sorts of
           | interesting things. Different companies have their own
           | standards.
           | 
           | Think of the AT commands as just telling the modem to put
           | itself in a particular mode or go do something. After that
           | the serial bits will do different things or output different
           | things. It does not specify what will be said in the data
           | mode (that is the GSM/CDMA/LTE/RS232 standards and a
           | different part of the modem). Just that the modem will do
           | particular things.
           | 
           | Take for example this old command ATDT,,5555555 That tells
           | the modem attention, go into output DMTF sounds, wait 2
           | seconds, wait 2 seconds, output the DMTF tones on the speaker
           | line for 5555555, then wait for a sound of response on the
           | receiver and negotiate the highest both ends can talk using
           | the S registers to decide what to do. But the AT commands do
           | not go over the wire. They are purely modem commands. The
           | modems in many cell phones still basically do this. But just
           | with different commands and different registers. There is
           | nothing stopping the modem from sending more AT commands to
           | the other side though but that would be something in the
           | standards to declare.
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | > As far as I remember, the ICCID never actually appears in
         | standard network messaging.
         | 
         | Yeah, that would be the IMSI (which a given SIM card can have
         | multiple of, e.g. for switching to a more beneficial home
         | network while roaming!)
         | 
         | The ICCID is useful for identifying a given physical SIM card
         | (e.g. so that the phone can link a given user-selected profile
         | name to it/the associated phone line for a "preferred line for
         | contact" indicator in dual-SIM phones), and probably also as an
         | identifier when dynamically assigning a new IMSI over the air.
         | 
         | > for the sake of emergency calling
         | 
         | The IMEI can indeed be an identifier of last resort for
         | emergency calls. I wonder if some countries use it to block
         | abuse/spam calls to emergency services, or more importantly,
         | why some others aren't?
         | 
         | In Germany, for example, SIM-less emergency calls are no longer
         | possible, supposedly due to many people calling the local
         | emergency number to test whether a used phone is in working
         | condition without inserting a SIM card... I don't know what
         | they're doing with the IMSI in that case, and if it's locking
         | these callers out, why they can't do the same for the IMEI.
        
           | tjohns wrote:
           | At least in the US, the 911 infrastructure is dated.
           | 
           | In older systems, your caller ID is sent using in-band DTMF
           | tones, which are decoded by the dispatch computer.
           | 
           | On newer E-911 systems they get some additional digital
           | address data from the telephone network, but the record
           | format wasn't designed with VoIP or cellular in mind. So in
           | those cases, the telephone network sends a virtual number and
           | the dispatch computer does a seperate out-of-band lookup with
           | the VoIP/cellular company using that number as a key to get
           | your location.
           | 
           | The whole emergency calling system is layers upon layers of
           | hacks. While they can bolt additional functionality on if
           | they're creative, it's more likely a given feature is _not_
           | implemented. There's a good chance that by the time the call
           | gets to dispatchers, the IMEI/IMSI isn't displayed anywhere
           | and they just see a random virtual number.
        
             | sfx2000 wrote:
             | Gosh, yes it's a bit of a mess...
             | 
             | The PSAP (E911 end point) likely will receive an MDN/MSISDN
             | (10 digit number you dial for NANP networks) - this is so
             | they can call back if the call is dropped.
             | 
             | E911 is a special service, so in the case of
             | deactivated/missing SIM cards, the carrier assigns a
             | temporary MSISDN for duration of the call when the UE exits
             | E911 mode - there are actually of regulatory and carrier
             | requirements around E911 mode.
             | 
             | E911 Phase 2 required not only the DN, but also if possible
             | the location of the device - whether thru Cell Base Station
             | Triangulation (if possible) or GNSS with a LAT/LONG based
             | on coarse/fine location info.
             | 
             | In any case, as @tjohns mentions, IMSI/IMEI are not
             | typically used outside of the servicing network.
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | Good point, and implementing a "this IMEI calls 911 to ask
             | for the time of day every hour" block on the side of the
             | networks seems risky as well, so I get how it might not be
             | that helpful.
             | 
             | But then I wonder why having an IMSI (as far as I
             | understand, the SIM can be deactivated, foreign etc., i.e.
             | it doesn't need to actually register to the network)
             | improves this in Germany?
             | 
             | Maybe German authorities just hope that having to insert a
             | SIM might deter people, since SIMs are perceived as being
             | personally identifiable more than just phones without a
             | SIM?
        
             | jfoutz wrote:
             | Huh. That's a think I've had vague notions of, but you've
             | made pretty explicit.
             | 
             | Technology under pressure looks a lot like biology.
        
           | jimbobthrowawy wrote:
           | I have heard of people calling emergency numbers to test if a
           | phone is working, but never a country making that impossible.
           | Here, I had always assumed that repeated nuisance callers
           | would be investigated to see if there's an actual problem,
           | and charged with a crime if they're doing it for no good
           | reason.
           | 
           | Always thought it would make more sense to have a dedicated
           | "test number" for this purpose. Probably with some rate
           | limiting.
        
             | amatecha wrote:
             | A lot of telcos used to have phone numbers you could call
             | that would just say the number you're calling from (like
             | with a computerized voice). I forget what this was called,
             | but it was talked about in phreaking community or so on.
             | Not sure if these "caller identifier" phone numbers are
             | still around today though.
        
               | miki123211 wrote:
               | They're easier to make than ever, all you need is Twillio
               | and a bit of Python code. There are quite a few in the US
               | alone, both provided by carriers as well as enthusiasts
               | and other companies in the industry.
        
               | bsagdiyev wrote:
               | 800-444-4444 still works. Even starts with "thank you for
               | calling MCI"
        
               | razakel wrote:
               | They're called ANACs - automatic number announcement
               | circuits.
        
               | amatecha wrote:
               | Ah yeah that's right, thanks!
        
               | BayesianDice wrote:
               | BT in the UK has 17070 which tells you the number and
               | lets you do tests like the "quiet line test". Handy when
               | working out what was going on when I moved into a
               | property with no live phone service (so no normal
               | outgoing calls), lots of phone extension sockets, and (I
               | discovered) _two_ landlines coming in...
        
         | kevvok wrote:
         | > Radio firmware and state machines have always had weird bugs,
         | and even when it conforms to standards (some of which are
         | extremely interpretable), does very weird things in the real
         | world. Pre-smartphone, being able to update phone and radio
         | firmware was extremely rare, so it was common for the networks
         | instead to implement workarounds on a manufacturer or handset
         | basis. Having a hardware ID that identified this was extremely
         | useful
         | 
         | Now that it's common for devices to be updated regularly, they
         | will typically send an extended form of the IMEI to the network
         | called the IMEISV, which is the same as the IMEI except the
         | final check digit is replaced with a two-digit code indicating
         | the current software version (SV = Software Version).
        
           | lloydatkinson wrote:
           | Only two digits? What could possibly go wrong... again.
        
             | rohansingh wrote:
             | Probably not a lot. It needs to have a fixed length on the
             | wire, and having 100 updates to the radio firmware for any
             | given model of handset... not likely?
        
       | londons_explore wrote:
       | The fact the IMEI is generally not editable seems like a massive
       | privacy hole.
       | 
       | Just let people edit it. Then I can be someone new every day and
       | nobody can track me.
       | 
       | Mac address randomization does that for wifi. Now do the same for
       | mobile networks.
        
         | kevincox wrote:
         | I really want mobile networks to accept their role as dumb data
         | pipes. I should be able to just provide a password or
         | certificate and connect. No IEMI, no SIM.
         | 
         | And while we are at it stop tunneling my data back "home" when
         | I travel. I don't want increased latency.
        
           | londons_explore wrote:
           | And while we're at it, how come if I have a phone without a
           | sim I can't at least navigate to a carrier webpage to buy an
           | esim?
           | 
           | The phone could pop up a menu saying "Here are the available
           | networks", and you pick one, connect and it says "Welcome to
           | AT&T, enter credit card number here", and you type a number
           | and hit OK and you're connected.
           | 
           | Oh wait - just like Wifi!! Why are mobile networks so far
           | behind?
        
             | btgeekboy wrote:
             | Kinda like this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
        
           | kbolino wrote:
           | How would a networking stack with no hardware addresses even
           | work? The next hop needs a way to reach back to you, before
           | you can negotiate anything fancy like passwords or
           | certificates. Even IPv6 SLAAC starts with a hardware address.
        
             | londons_explore wrote:
             | rand()?
        
               | kbolino wrote:
               | A MAC address is 48 bits and an IMEI is about the same
               | entropy-wise. That's not nearly enough room to avoid
               | duplicates (even SLAAC requires duplicate address
               | detection, and IPv6 has a lot more bits to work with).
               | You'd need a whole new layer 2 protocol, though to be
               | fair you might be able to strip it down to just doing
               | collision detection/avoidance and leave addressing up to
               | layer 3 with IPv6, but that's not going to be any kind of
               | backwards compatible or interoperable.
        
               | boznz wrote:
               | Surely the uniqueness is only required at the bottom end
               | of the stack before the first 'router' ie the cell tower
        
               | baby_souffle wrote:
               | > Surely the uniqueness is only required at the bottom
               | end of the stack before the first 'router' ie the cell
               | tower
               | 
               | Not if you need to send a message to $thatUniquePhone.
               | 
               | Over simplifying considerably, but if a land line places
               | a call to a mobile, the "220-1234 calling for 220-7890"
               | message enters the network. The `220-7890` phone number
               | needs to map to the unique modem address so you can look
               | up which tower the call setup data should be sent to. If
               | - by sheer coincidence - I also have your MAC address and
               | am attached to a tower 3 states away... which tower(s) do
               | you forward the call setup data to?!
        
               | vdqtp3 wrote:
               | > which tower(s) do you forward the call setup data
               | 
               | Whichever one has most recently communicated with the
               | user in question (based on the credentials or certificate
               | provided, in the original example)
        
               | kbolino wrote:
               | Assuming something like VoIP is in use, you reach other
               | devices with their IP addresses, not MAC addresses.
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | As far as I know MAC addresses are never used to route a
               | message to a particular recipient. They're used so that
               | devices that overhear the message, but aren't the
               | intended recipient, can ignore that message on the honor
               | system.
               | 
               | If you have a wired connection, this makes the MAC
               | completely superfluous. The concept is sort of still
               | valid for wireless connections (or of course for "wired"
               | connections where you have multiple devices physically
               | connected by the same wire, a bus, where the concept
               | originated). It should be rethought.
        
               | londons_explore wrote:
               | Yes - the whole MAC/ARP/IP parts of the typical IP stack
               | are a legacy mess and should be sorted out.
        
               | kbolino wrote:
               | Yes, but you could have hundreds of thousands of devices
               | connected to that tower in a dense metro area. Even a
               | single hardware address collision would result in both
               | devices being unable to reliably reach emergency
               | services.
        
             | kevvok wrote:
             | The use of IPv6 in cellular devices is specified by RFC
             | 7066. When a device first registers for a data connection,
             | the network provides an interface identifier to use for the
             | lifetime of the registration, which is guaranteed not to
             | conflict with the one used by the router. The network also
             | allocates a /64 prefix exclusively for use by the device.
             | These two things allows the device to perform SLAAC for
             | link-local and routable addresses without needing to do
             | duplicate address detection.
             | 
             | It's also worth mentioning SLAAC does not strictly require
             | a hardware address to function. For example, Apple devices
             | implement newer standards from IETF to generate random but
             | stable addresses that don't reveal information about the
             | hardware addresses
             | (https://support.apple.com/guide/security/ipv6-security-
             | seccb...)
        
           | ixwt wrote:
           | > And while we are at it stop tunneling my data back "home"
           | when I travel.
           | 
           | Oddly enough, I found this to be a plus when I traveled to
           | China for work. My data was unmolested by the Great Firewall
           | of China. I was able to get on websites with my mobile data
           | that I couldn't when using wifi in the hotels.
        
           | techsupporter wrote:
           | > And while we are at it stop tunneling my data back "home"
           | when I travel. I don't want increased latency.
           | 
           | You might not, but a whole lot of customers who aren't as
           | technically sophisticated did. When T-Mobile first started
           | doing included international data roaming, they didn't tunnel
           | back. That caused a lot of confusion from customers who
           | didn't realize why stuff they expected to work, like checking
           | their bank balance, didn't. (It also made throttling speeds a
           | lot more difficult.)
           | 
           | So to fix that, T-Mobile tunnels you back to a few endpoints
           | in the States. Banking apps are generally happy, as are
           | Netflix and Spotify. Most customers are happy because their
           | phone "just works" the same as it "always has".
           | 
           | For those of us who want to avoid the latency, we get a local
           | SIM for data (if possible).
        
             | hunter2_ wrote:
             | This is interesting. I use Verizon Wireless from the US,
             | and when traveling abroad on their travel pass (roaming),
             | some large multilingual websites serve me the local
             | language instead of English, on sites that serve me English
             | when I'm at home. My browser (Accept-Language header) is
             | configured for only English. I always decline location API
             | browser popups.
             | 
             | The only thing I can think of, assuming they tunnel as you
             | describe, is maybe I first loaded the site from local WiFi
             | instead of mobile data, at which point I was redirected (to
             | a localized subdomain that doesn't redirect back) or got a
             | cookie or something, which lingered as I continued without
             | WiFi.
        
           | jhoechtl wrote:
           | CB radio has you covered
        
         | gsich wrote:
         | Only if you also change your SIM every day.
        
           | londons_explore wrote:
           | As a man who currently has 13 esims in his phone...
        
         | mytailorisrich wrote:
         | There is no privacy concern, really, as this is unique to the
         | device, not subscriber, and only shared with the network
         | operator, who obviously already "tracks" the subscriber through
         | the SIM , which contains the subscriber identifier (IMSI).
         | 
         | On the other hand, the IMEI in principle makes tracking and
         | disabling of stolen devices easy.
         | 
         | By the way, in the UK it is actually an offence to change the
         | IMEI [1]
         | 
         | [1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/section/1
        
           | toast0 wrote:
           | The IMEI also allows a network operator to track a device
           | across multiple sims. And I think it's also shared with
           | roaming operators if roaming happens.
        
             | jimbobthrowawy wrote:
             | IIRC when you put a SIM into a new device for the first
             | time, part of the tower auth includes the IMEI of the
             | previous device you used it with also.
        
           | NoImmatureAdHom wrote:
           | "There is no privacy concern, really..." Except for the
           | network operator, who needs to track a _SIM card_ not a
           | phone, but who can track you across networks and SIM cards if
           | he has the IMEI. There is no reason the IMEI needs to be
           | stable.
           | 
           | The network operator does NOT need to know who you are, even
           | if you live in a repressive country that mandates tying ID to
           | mobile phone lines. Get a SIM card in person and top up in
           | cash, or use a virtual credit card, or pay in cryptocurrency
           | for an eSIM, or get a subscription in a less oppressive
           | country and roam.
           | 
           | Invisv is a great suggestion.
        
           | least wrote:
           | This is 100% a privacy concern if you're dealing with state
           | level actors.
        
             | ale42 wrote:
             | They can track you with or without the IMEI. Next
             | identifier is the IMSI read from your SIM card and I guess
             | you're not replacing it every day...
        
               | least wrote:
               | Disclaimer: used to work in SIGINT, so please treat
               | anything I say about this with appropriate skepticism.
               | 
               | There are people that for various reasons do cycle out
               | their SIM card frequently as a means to avoid tracking.
               | This is ineffective. Changing the IMEI/discarding devices
               | entirely is more effective.
        
               | ale42 wrote:
               | But if you change IMEI and use the same SIM card, you're
               | still trackable as if nothing changed, right? The IMSI
               | would be the same. I guess you need to change both at the
               | same time...
        
             | ikekkdcjkfke wrote:
             | Dudes have been driving around with fake base stations,
             | rare, but has happened. Only sent spam sms messages with
             | links but could be expanded with buying data from data
             | brokers. A really serious crime though
        
             | xw38011 wrote:
             | I would think state level actors have enough tools to deal
             | with this issue. If nothing else they could go the old
             | fashioned way and just, you know, follow you.
        
               | least wrote:
               | It isn't usually the goal of SIGINT to only collect data
               | about a target's location nor are targets always that
               | easy to follow.
        
           | hughesjj wrote:
           | Any immutable id is inherently a privacy concern. Network
           | operators are ISP's, and ISP's have been known to do things
           | like hijack unresolvable DNS entries to a search page with
           | ads. The network operator knows who you are and what imei was
           | associated with your account.
           | 
           | I wouldn't be surprised if there were some 'ghost'/virtual
           | profiles associated to an imei similar to how Facebook would
           | do with the like button
        
             | mytailorisrich wrote:
             | Well, there's your phone number. Networks and law
             | enforcement only need that.
             | 
             | Existing privacy level is adequate for members of the
             | public. Anyone who actually, really requires more either
             | has state agencies resources available or is being wanted
             | by state agencies...
        
         | ementally wrote:
         | You can, but it is not that easy and you also need to change
         | your IMSI.
         | 
         | https://invisv.com/pgpp/ for IMSI (not available worldwide)
         | 
         | https://github.com/srlabs/blue-merle for IMEI, a nice guide
         | written by them explaining how it works
         | https://raw.githubusercontent.com/srlabs/blue-merle/main/Doc...
         | 
         | You can follow this thread for more info
         | https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/cell-towers-tracking-net...
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | I think I'm more concerned with the fact that the carriers know
         | the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing about
         | stolen phones. That was the beginning of the end of my
         | infatuation with the mobile space.
         | 
         | I should have been well positioned for early retirement during
         | the early smart phone gold rush but was just so put off by the
         | Ma Bell feeling of the mobile industry that I had exited before
         | most people had even entered.
        
           | fencepost wrote:
           | _I think I'm more concerned with the fact that the carriers
           | know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can do nothing
           | about stolen phones._
           | 
           | Maybe once upon a time, but I'm pretty sure stolen devices
           | can be blacklisted from networks these days.
        
             | nolan879 wrote:
             | Carriers have been blacklisting IMEIs for at least 10+
             | years. Since phones tended to be carrier-locked back then
             | you couldn't go to a new carrier without being in good
             | standing to get your device's unlock code from the old
             | carrier. Now that devices are available unlocked by
             | default, it is probably harder since it would require
             | carriers to communicate IMEIs?
        
               | ale42 wrote:
               | Not sure, I think that there are international lists of
               | stolen IMEIs. Maybe it's just in Europe, though.
        
               | wrboyce wrote:
               | ~15 years ago the blacklists were certainly shared within
               | Europe, but there was an intercontinental trade of
               | blacklisted phones from Europe to Africa (and, if memory
               | serves, Asia).
        
               | hinkley wrote:
               | I looked it up. US Carriers were forced by the US
               | government to start blacklisting them in the final months
               | of 2012. They didn't do it voluntarily.
               | 
               | Australia had been doing it since 2003. IMEIs have been
               | around for 30 years? Everyone having a cellphone is still
               | a relatively recent phenomenon, but according to Pew 80%
               | of American adults had cellphones for several years
               | already before carriers were forced to deal with stolen
               | ones.
        
             | lesuorac wrote:
             | I believe the point is that they could've been blacklisted
             | from the start and instead carriers would just put up their
             | hands say "there's nothing we can do" despite there being
             | something they can do.
             | 
             | It's like when your apple laptop gets stolen and then
             | starts using your applecare support and apple won't help
             | you get it back.
             | 
             | Of course, if you decided not to pay your phone bill I'm
             | sure that device would get blackslisted real fast.
        
           | londons_explore wrote:
           | In Kazakhstan, when a phone is used on a mobile network for
           | the first time, the IMEI of the phone gets locked to that
           | mobile network and that sim card. When you buy the sim card,
           | they photocopy your passport/ID card.
           | 
           | No other sim will work in it until you take _that_ photo ID
           | /passport to the mobile companies office to have it unlocked.
           | The photo id (even if expired) becomes the unlock code for
           | the phone.
           | 
           | Made phone theft drop to pretty much zero.
        
             | medo-bear wrote:
             | > Made phone theft drop to pretty much zero
             | 
             | Use a nuke to kill a fly?
        
               | 6th wrote:
               | It was the only way to be certain.
        
               | _heimdall wrote:
               | The ends always justify the means.
        
               | sambazi wrote:
               | i imagine that phone theft is more common in poorer
               | regions
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | In Australia, you can report your phone as stolen and it
           | becomes IMEI blocked, not able to be used on Australian phone
           | networks.
           | 
           | https://amta.org.au/lost-and-stolen-mobiles/
           | 
           | https://amta.org.au/check-the-status-of-your-handset/
        
             | sambazi wrote:
             | sounds like a dos vector. is there a lot of abuse of this?
        
               | tessellated wrote:
               | sounds like considering linking to a social security
               | number would be a good idea.. any reasons this ain't
               | commonplace?
        
           | mynameisvlad wrote:
           | The article literally talks about blacklisting and has a
           | photo of what a blacklisted phone shows when this happens.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | And what time frame did I apply for when I exited mobile?
        
               | mynameisvlad wrote:
               | Your entire comment makes it sound like your gripes are
               | current issues, not those that you experienced decades
               | ago in a completely different mobile landscape.
               | 
               | You continually use the present tense when the
               | argument... just doesn't apply anymore.
               | 
               | > I think I'm more concerned with the fact that the
               | carriers know the IMEI of phones and claim that they can
               | do nothing about stolen phones.
               | 
               | This is not a fact anymore.
        
         | apienx wrote:
         | SMS specifications include "Type 0" messages, also known as
         | Silent SMS. These messages don't trigger any even on the phone
         | when received, but they do send back an ACK that includes IMSI
         | metadata. Silent SM, are literally defined in the RFC and
         | primarily used to covertly track user locations without
         | judicial oversight.
         | 
         | GSM, SS7, etc. are massive privacy holes _by design_.
        
           | ParanoidShroom wrote:
           | They are primarily used for configuring your visual voicemail
           | lol. Stop the hyperbolic statements.
        
             | walterbell wrote:
             | Can they be disabled/blocked on the device, when not needed
             | because the user has disabled "visual voicemail" with their
             | carrier?
        
             | skyyler wrote:
             | https://www.heise.de/news/Zoll-BKA-und-Verfassungsschutz-
             | ver...
             | 
             | Not sure where you get your information, but these are
             | routinely used by police to covertly track targets.
        
               | lmz wrote:
               | Just because they are routinely used for such does not
               | mean it is their _primary_ purpose.
        
               | fsckboy wrote:
               | when we know that govts want this capability, when we
               | know that govt regulators are in the same room with
               | telcos when plans are being drawn up, when we know govt
               | uses these capabilities routinely, why would you doubt it
               | was there for that purpose? isn't this a good time to
               | round up the usual suspects? If the govt intervenes to
               | get this capability and also declares that this should
               | not be the _primary_ purpose, I guess that would make it
               | a secondary purpose? OK, I feel better now, phew!
        
             | squigz wrote:
             | Could you elaborate on this? What is a 'visual voicemail'?
             | What would a 'silent SMS' have to do with that?
        
               | advisedwang wrote:
               | Visual voicemail is where an app on your phone can show
               | you a list of voicemails and you can click a button to
               | play them, as opposed to you having to dial a number to
               | access voicemail (the old "press 2 to hear the next
               | message" stuff).
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | I'm not sure if Visual Voicemail really uses silent SMS,
               | but even older phones had a series of indicators such as
               | "voicemail waiting", "message waiting" etc. which the
               | network could control via binary SMS payloads.
               | 
               | By sending one that clears all of them in a network that
               | doesn't use them (or sending one equivalent to the
               | current state for one that does), you can achieve the
               | outcome of initiating SMS-MT (mobile-terminated) delivery
               | to a given ME (phone) without any user notification.
               | 
               | SMS delivery by necessity involves paging the device,
               | revealing its location at a finer level (base station
               | instead of paging area).
               | 
               | So I wouldn't say silent SMS were designed as a spying
               | tool, but they're one out of several ways to silently
               | "ping" a phone and force it to communicate with the
               | network without having to wait for it to cross location
               | area boundaries, get or make a call etc.
        
               | chenxiaolong wrote:
               | Visual voicemail is when the dialer app on your phone can
               | show the list of voicemails similar to how you would see
               | your email inbox. You can directly play the voicemail
               | messages and depending on the device/carrier, there might
               | also be a text transcription of the audio.
               | 
               | Many carriers implement this via "silent SMS" + IMAP (the
               | same IMAP as for emails). The device will send an
               | activation or status message to the carrier's visual
               | voicemail number and the carrier will respond with an SMS
               | containing the IMAP credentials.
               | 
               | The version of this I'm familiar with is T-Mobile's old
               | CVVM protocol. During initial setup, the device will send
               | a text message containing "Activate:dt=6" to the number
               | 122 and T-Mobile will reply with (in decoded form):
               | pw_len=4-9         vs_len=10         u=<IMAP username>
               | pw=IMAP password>         rc=0         st=R
               | ipt=148         srv=e7.vvm.mstore.msg.t-mobile.com
               | lang=1|2|3|4         g_len=180
               | 
               | If visual voicemail is already enabled, then sending the
               | "Status:dt=6" SMS to 122 will also result in the same
               | reply. Putting the credentials in an IMAP client will
               | work and it doesn't have to go over the phone's cellular
               | connection. You can even use curl:                   curl
               | -v imaps://<USERNAME>:<PASSWORD>@e7.vvm.mstore.msg.t-mobi
               | le.com/
               | 
               | T-Mobile has deprecated this protocol though. New
               | activation messages will fail with a blocked status:
               | rc=0         st=B         srv=vvm.mstore.msg.t-mobile.com
               | 
               | T-Mobile replaced this CVVM protocol with two HTTP based
               | protocols: "mstore" (used by OEMs like in the dialer app
               | on Google Pixels and OnePlus devices) and "cpaas" (used
               | by T-Mobile's first party visual voicemail app). I've
               | been working on an open source client for mstore for use
               | with open source Android OS's, like GrapheneOS.
               | 
               | In case anyone is interested, the vvmd wiki (visual
               | voicemail implementation for Linux phones) has
               | information on how several carriers implement VVM:
               | https://gitlab.com/kop316/vvmplayer/-/wikis/Visual-
               | Voicemail.... AT&T's is especially nasty.
        
           | WirelessGigabit wrote:
           | I remember using one of those dongles with a SIM card that
           | you could talk to with an API and use that to send flash SMS.
           | Full screen warnings to friends. Only option was 'OK' and the
           | text was gone afterwards.
        
             | ale42 wrote:
             | My old Nokia C2-01 allows sending them from the menu ;-)
        
           | ian0 wrote:
           | Silent SMS is an incredibly convoluted and impractical way of
           | trying to figure out someones location.
           | 
           | The whole purpose of mobile networks is to track a devices
           | location (so you can route data to/from it!). Of course its
           | easy to do it if your the operator or someone who has
           | compromised it.
        
           | miki123211 wrote:
           | They're not privacy holes by design, but they're not privacy
           | friendly by design either.
           | 
           | When these things were designed, privacy wasn't really a
           | concern and wasn't really thought about in the way it is now.
           | The assumptions were very different, it was assumed that only
           | large and trusted companies could get on SS7 and those would
           | play by the rules, or else face the wrath of the government.
           | Now, a small carrier in a third-world country that routinely
           | violates human rights can get that access.
        
         | breakfastduck wrote:
         | they WANT you to be stuck with it because then they can track
         | you no matter what
        
         | ale42 wrote:
         | Mobile phones are a massive privacy hole. Almost by definition.
         | 
         | And smartphones 10 times more (or more, depends on how many
         | apps you installed, almost all of them include some sort of
         | trackers).
         | 
         | IMEI is (almost) the last of my privacy problems.
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | Definitely don't let people edit it. iOS and Android don't
         | allow picking your own MAC address for good reasons - people
         | would inevitably pick 12:34:56, 00:00:00 etc. and cause
         | problems for themselves and others.
         | 
         | To increase privacy, either randomize it (but make it much
         | longer at the same time to avoid collisions) and/or remove it
         | from as many signalling contexts as possible and keep it as a
         | device-local identifier only (which then probably also doesn't
         | have to be unique across manufacturers).
        
         | hwbunny wrote:
         | There were a lot of chinese made keiser phones that allows you
         | to edit all the phone/sim related identifiers. Sadly they were
         | discovered and rooted out of the amazon marketplace.
        
       | ementally wrote:
       | You can use https://github.com/srlabs/blue-merle if you want to
       | change your IMEI
       | 
       | >The blue-merle software package enhances anonymity and reduces
       | forensic traceability of the GL-E750 / Mudi 4G mobile wi-fi
       | router ("Mudi router")
       | 
       | >Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) changer
       | 
       | >Media Access Control (MAC) address log wiper
       | 
       | >Basic Service Set Identifier (BSSID) randomization
       | 
       | >MAC Address randomization
        
         | soylentcola wrote:
         | Looks like it only works on their portable router (a separate
         | device) unless I missed something. A sort of proxy for your
         | phone I guess?
        
         | sfx2000 wrote:
         | I don't recommend mucking about with the IMEI, as you risk a
         | collision with another device that is already using that IMEI -
         | IMEI's are supposed to be immutable.
         | 
         | I realize that there are some Modem OEM's that might allow the
         | IMEI to be "adjusted", but proper modem vendors will not allow
         | that AT command.
        
       | KenArrari wrote:
       | If someone knows your IMEI can they track you?
        
         | kbolino wrote:
         | Not from the other side of a wide-area network, but if they are
         | continuously in close proximity to you, or can effectively
         | monitor everywhere (three letter agency), then yes. Of course,
         | there are other ways to track you.
        
           | harshaxnim wrote:
           | Can you elaborate on what you meant by trackable when they're
           | "continously in close proximity to you"?
        
             | p_l wrote:
             | Snooping, or hijacking, the radio pathway between you and
             | your network operator.
        
             | aspenmayer wrote:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI-catcher
        
             | wiml wrote:
             | If they can listen to the radio traffic between your phone
             | and the cell tower, that is.
        
           | lxgr wrote:
           | I think this is only true for older mobile networks. In 4G
           | and 5G, I don't think the IMEI is part of any unencrypted
           | radio message anymore.
           | 
           | Even the IMSI is only used when absolutely necessary, i.e.
           | for the initial attachment procedure when cold starting a
           | device or entering a new routing area; after that, it's
           | replaced by an alias called TMSI to make tracking phone users
           | a bit harder.
           | 
           | New Android versions will supposedly have a switch in their
           | settings to show a warning every time the IMEI or IMSI is
           | transmitted in plantext [1].
           | 
           | [1] https://cs.android.com/android/platform/superproject/main
           | /+/...
        
       | spiesd wrote:
       | I'm interested in the general thrust, but this article is sloppy
       | at best.
       | 
       | > Check digit: The final digit is essentially used to validate
       | the prior 14 digits with an algorithm. Similar digits exist in
       | other types of identifier codes, such as the Universal Product
       | Code (UPC) and the International Standard Book Number (ISBN). The
       | algorithm that the mobile industry uses, the Luhn algorithm, is
       | also used for social security numbers and credit card numbers.
       | 
       | No, just no. SSNs (in the US) don't have check digits.
       | 
       | Also:
       | 
       | > Then there are network identifier numbers--the MAC address
       | bestowed upon you by your WiFi network or mobile provider
       | 
       | Huh? This nonsense ("bestowed upon") serves only to confuse. This
       | is bad tech journalism: it fails to inform the masses, and is
       | transparently worthless to experts.
        
         | toxik wrote:
         | Many non-American SSN systems do have check digits.
        
           | cesarb wrote:
           | The Brazilian CPF (our equivalent to the SSN) goes up to
           | eleven (literally) by including not one, but _two_ check
           | digits; IIRC, the first one (the tenth digit) is computed
           | over the first nine digits, and the second one (the eleventh
           | digit) is computed over the first ten digits.
        
         | dhosek wrote:
         | The geographic aspect of SSNs no longer applies either. My kids
         | have SSNs that start with different digits than my own which
         | was assigned under the old regime where the first digit
         | indicated where the SSN was issued.
        
       | xjay wrote:
       | Android defaults to sending the IMSI (SIM ID) to Google.
       | 
       | > SUPL is used as part of the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) system to get
       | a faster Time to First Fix. The problem is that Android's
       | implementation automatically sends the IMSI (ID of the SIM card)
       | to the SUPL provider for no apparent reason. And because Google
       | is the default provider it's a big breach of privacy.
       | 
       | https://github.com/Magisk-Modules-Alt-Repo/supl-replacer
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
        
         | sambazi wrote:
         | and then proceeds to download a blob to be interpreted by the
         | firmware over plain http
        
           | tredre3 wrote:
           | The S in SUPL stands for secure, it's ssl encrypted. Whether
           | or not the implementation is good, I don't know, but saying
           | it uses plain http is patently false.
        
         | SubzeroCarnage wrote:
         | I document this more in depth here
         | https://divestos.org/misc/gnss.txt
        
       | ale42 wrote:
       | From the article:                   it will generally start with
       | a 35, which is unused as a country calling code
       | 
       | It's "unused" because several country codes _start_ with 35:
       | Ireland, Portugal, Luxembourg, Iceland... (This doesn 't mean
       | that phones are actually manufactured there... I have a phone
       | with an IMEI starting in 354 and it's definitely not manufactured
       | in Iceland...)
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | Yeah, they seem to be confusing that with IMSIs or ICCIDs,
         | which are indeed namespaced by mobile country code and
         | international calling code respectively.
         | 
         | Based on what other commenters have already pointed out, this
         | seems to be a quite sloppily researched article.
        
           | misstuned wrote:
           | This is interesting - I hadn't noticed this, but my Chinese
           | (Xiaomi) phone indeed has an IMEI starting with 86, which is
           | China's dialling code. Perhaps a coincidence.
           | 
           | The ICCID starts 8944 - not sure of the significance of the
           | 89, but 44 is the UK, where my SIM card (and me) comes from.
        
             | ale42 wrote:
             | 89 is the MII (major industry identifier) according to
             | ISO/IEC 7812 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_7812).
             | First digit 8 includes the telecom industry.
        
       | gandalfian wrote:
       | Also a rare UK success story in brute force lawmaking. People
       | used to hack phones IMEI all the time, lots of utils available.
       | Then anything relating to changing an imei was heavily punished
       | and it all stopped. Nobody would host a utility or a guide or
       | even mention it on a forum. If you did mention it you were
       | banned. It was almost instant.
        
         | ykonstant wrote:
         | That doesn't sound good at all.
        
           | Biganon wrote:
           | "Success story" does not imply that the greater good was
           | successful
        
         | smcin wrote:
         | ... mention it on a UK forum, European forum or any forum?
        
       | chirau wrote:
       | Is there any entity or procedure that actually proves what a
       | phone is what it claims to be?
       | 
       | Unfortunately, neither IMEI, Serial Number or a combination of
       | both can assert this.
       | 
       | I bought a Samsung S24 a week ago off Facebook Marketplace. It
       | was in the box and everything. I cross checked both the IMEIs and
       | also the Serial Number with the #06# test. I even checked them
       | online. Did all the tests, _#0_ # and even downloaded Samsung
       | members. Paid for the phone, convinced it was a genuine one.
       | 
       | Upon registering it and using it, it becomes very clear the phone
       | is fake and is at best a clone. The camera is nowhere near the
       | S24 and does not have the features. It heats up after charging
       | and does not keep charge. It runs slower than a 10 year Android
       | once you are signed it.
       | 
       | when you run diagnostics, it shows all the specs of an S24 Ultra.
       | How do I know this? I went and got another S24 Ultra from the
       | store and they are worlds apart.
       | 
       | So my question is, if you are buying a phone from a reseller or
       | someone, is there any way of definitely asserting whether it is
       | authentic?
        
         | yardstick wrote:
         | This is typically where consumer rights laws come into play and
         | a key advantage of buying first hand from a "real" business
         | rather than an individual or third party. At least there you
         | have someone you can easily hold to account.
         | 
         | You need to price in the risk factor when purchasing where such
         | legislation doesn't apply or isn't easy to enforce.
        
         | tschwimmer wrote:
         | I'm sorry that this happened to you. The debugging and tear
         | down sound like they would make for an extremely interesting
         | blog post though. I encourage you to write it up and post it
         | here - I'd definitely read it.
        
           | miki123211 wrote:
           | Some YouTuber bought one of these (not specifically an S24)
           | and found a hidden app that "told" the phone what it should
           | be.
           | 
           | You could set how much RAM you wanted, how much storage, what
           | CPU and so on, and then that info would be shown in all the
           | "about" screens. They went to a few Tb of ram if I remember
           | correctly.
           | 
           | Changing any of these parameters didn't have an impact on
           | what the phone could actually do, just to be clear.
        
             | chirau wrote:
             | Would you have a link to the video by any chance? I would
             | like to invest some time in showing how to detect and
             | remove said app
        
         | sfx2000 wrote:
         | The carrier can ID the device type by the radio layer itself at
         | the PHY layer.
        
           | chirau wrote:
           | How would I go about doing this?
        
         | numpad0 wrote:
         | Anything on the display or reported by Linux Kernel can be
         | faked, so no.
        
       | sfx2000 wrote:
       | Interesting thread - as someone that used to be in carrier
       | space...
       | 
       | IMEI - we only really cared about the TAC prefix, as this
       | identifies the device type, which is mapped to capabilities for
       | services.
       | 
       | IMSI - this is usually in the SIM card (UICC), and mapped out
       | specifically within the uSIM/SIM application inside the card.
       | This is aligned with the Billing/Rate Plan for services that the
       | subscriber is set up with.
       | 
       | TMSI - this is usually what the network uses to page you and also
       | deliver singaling over the NAS via the SGs interface for devices
       | that do not support IMS/VoLTE
       | 
       | ICCID - this ID's the card itself, for SIM cards, it always
       | starts with 89 as this designates the card as telephony related
       | as a physical UICC - remember, there are other types of UICC's
       | such as CHIP based Credit Cards, which start with a different
       | number.
       | 
       | MSISDN - this is the number that you dial and send SMS to - in
       | legacy systems, it can also be referred to as the MDN
       | 
       | Fun Fact that was skipped in the article - IMEI's that start with
       | 99 are special, as these indicate that the Device is both
       | GSM/UMTS/LTE and CDMA/EVDO capable, and generally those IMEI's
       | will align closely with the CDMA MEID's, but they were not
       | required to. The "99" range wasn't just Apple, but was used in
       | the early days of dual-mode across most vendors as it helped
       | facilitate session handovers from C2K to any 3GPP based service.
       | For C2K, on the IMSI front, most devices would use IMSI_T (True
       | IMSI based on the SIM card IMSIef) but some used IMSI_M which was
       | based on the legacy MIN.
       | 
       | Legacy - there is the ESN in CDMA, but this is very legacy, and
       | was largely superseded by MEID - for Legacy Support, pESN could
       | be derived from MEID, however at the high risk of collisions...
        
       | thedougd wrote:
       | Many a year ago, when the iPhone was new and Android was on
       | version 1.6. Sprint offered the SERO plan, an unlimited plan for
       | friends and family. When smartphones hit, they would no longer
       | allow the SERO unlimited plan to transfer to the new phones.
       | 
       | The HTC phones had a Qualcomm radio that, with the right tooling,
       | one could write all 0s to the IMEI (or the CDMA equivalent)
       | register. Then you could write any IMEI to the register. That
       | worked well for a few years.
        
         | sfx2000 wrote:
         | SERO was one of the Sprint Rate Plans, the other was the
         | Pioneer Plan for early adopters on SprintPCS
         | 
         | HTC got into a bit of trouble with the carriers on the whole
         | IMEI/MEID rewrite mess at the end of the day. With Qualcomm,
         | that was an NVITEM that was supposed to be read-only.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | didn't I read recently about some manufacturer that shipped
         | many of its phones with the same imei?
         | 
         | EDIT: "Over 13,000 Vivo phones found to be using same IMEI
         | number"
         | 
         | https://www.techradar.com/news/over-13000-vivo-phones-found-...
        
       | mannyv wrote:
       | I remember some telco guy saying "the IMEI is unique until it
       | isn't."
       | 
       | We always wondered if you could crash part of a cell network by
       | dropping in 8192 phones with the same IMEI. Everyone needs to
       | deal with non unique identifiers, but the question is how many do
       | they expect?
       | 
       | FYI this is a problem on Ethernet, when you get boards that
       | haven't been initialized. Things don't like multiple MAC
       | addresses with 0s.
        
       | username135 wrote:
       | I have been looking for information like this for a while. Thank
       | you!
       | 
       | Follow up, does the IMEI number get broadcast when you connect,
       | or is it a searchable bit of information accessible by apps, et
       | al?
       | 
       | Im wondering how anonymous you can be if youre making all the
       | right privacy moves, but your phone is still essentially giving
       | you up because your IMEI number is traceable back to you.
        
       | ztetranz wrote:
       | Fun fact: Lots of cellular modem/routers have the easy ability to
       | change IMEI. Doing so is a fairly common practice in the rural
       | internet community. i.e., those using cellular for their internet
       | access either because cable / fiber or an official cellular
       | option like T-Mobile home internet is unavailable or they're
       | mobile in an RV.
       | 
       | These people are not trying to do anything particularly nefarious
       | but they do it so that they can use a phone or tablet plan in a
       | router. Unlimited or high GB plans for routers and hotspots are
       | expensive and there are not many options.
       | 
       | There are lots of reasonably priced, easy to get unlimited phone
       | and tablet plans but if you put a phone SIM in a router it might
       | work for while until the carrier detects that you have the SIM in
       | an unauthorized device. The "solution" to that is to activate on
       | a spare phone and then change the router IMEI to match the phone.
       | Don't use both devices at the same time. The carrier now thinks
       | the router is a phone.
       | 
       | The legally of it is somewhat unclear so it's talked about
       | quietly on various forums using words like "magic configuration",
       | "giving your router an identity crisis" etc.
       | 
       | It's a bit of a cat and mouse game because IMEI is probably not
       | the only way to identify an unauthorized device but so far it
       | seems to be the main way.
        
         | sambazi wrote:
         | glorious
         | 
         | reminds me of changing mac address to get around data caps in
         | the student dorm network
        
           | xattt wrote:
           | Or getting online with an Ethernet network that refuses to
           | connect with an unauthorized MAC.
        
           | ale42 wrote:
           | Same but for airport wifi time limits... had to use Linux
           | because the Windows drivers the laptop didn't allow manually
           | setting the MAC address.
        
         | vel0city wrote:
         | I remember back in the 00's on AT&T getting an unlimited data
         | plan addon for a dumb phone was like $15/mo or something while
         | adding it for a smartphone was like $40 or more. They would
         | enforce it by checking your IMEI and seeing if it was one of
         | the smartphones they sold.
         | 
         | Buying an unlocked phone of a model AT&T didn't sell seemed to
         | never trigger the "you're using a smartphone" check. Fun times
         | with some cheap 3G back in the day.
        
           | grayfaced wrote:
           | In 2004, I was doing something similar on Tmobile. Flip
           | phones internet was cheap. Could tether it via a cable to
           | laptop and I also used an external antenna to improve signal.
           | I would leave it up overnight downloading videos on p2p. I
           | was in Army barracks at time and no one else had decent
           | internet.
        
         | hiatus wrote:
         | What are some of the devices that allow you to easily change
         | the IMEI?
        
           | ztetranz wrote:
           | I have one of these
           | https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09NDDH6S8 which is easy to
           | change. You still need some knowledge to run some AT commands
           | on the modem. It's easy to find the instructions online and
           | it can be done from the web based admin. Yes, they have AT
           | commands like old dialup modems.
           | 
           | Anything from https://thewirelesshaven.com. I have an old one
           | of their routers and the latest firmware literally has IMEI
           | as a textbox in the admin.
        
         | ale42 wrote:
         | Passive TCP/IP fingerprinting might tell a lot about the
         | device. You could probably easily tell apart an iPad and a
         | router. But if IMEI checking catches 95% of plan cheaters, it's
         | probably not worth implementing more checks (more checks = more
         | cost and infrastructure to maintain, is it cheaper than the
         | lost revenue?).
         | 
         | This said, I find it insane that there are such plans. The cost
         | of a connection should be the same whatever the device behind
         | is.
        
           | ztetranz wrote:
           | I think there's lots of ways they could tell if they really
           | wanted to. One way is simply looking at the traffic. "Why are
           | apps on your Android phone accessing Windows update
           | servers?". Of course a VPN can solve that and the game
           | continues.
           | 
           | Something interesting might happen next week. T-Mobile Home
           | Internet is not supposed to be moved from the registered
           | address but until now that has not been enforced. It's quite
           | popular with RVers. They just announced a new "Away" plan for
           | $160/mo that you are allowed to move compared to $60 for the
           | normal home plan and, not surprisingly, it seems like they're
           | about to start enforcing the geo-restriction on the home
           | plan. This apparently uses GPS in the device. Well, I hear
           | that a lot of people are using the home internet SIMs in
           | other devices with the IMEI set. This is because there are
           | much better devices with external antenna ports etc. These
           | might be in trouble if they don't respond to the GPS request.
        
       | solidsnack9000 wrote:
       | It is a minor part of the article, but I'm surprised they
       | introduced it only to get it so wrong.
       | 
       |  _The U.S. Gun Control Act of 1968, among other things, requires
       | traceable serial codes on guns, something that has become a key
       | element of forensic ballistics. In some circles, this is seen as
       | controversial, as highlighted by a case involving "ghost guns"
       | that the Supreme Court is hearing this session._
       | 
       | First of all, serial numbers don't have much to do with forensic
       | ballistics. Generally, in forensics, investigators are comparing
       | items in their actual possession -- shell casings, bullet
       | fragments, and weapons recovered from the scene of a crime or
       | from a suspect. Serial numbers don't help with that.
       | 
       | Serial numbers are useful in investigating gun trafficking --
       | it's actually very similar to the example of car theft that the
       | author presents early in the article.
       | 
       | Regarding the "this is seen as controversial", that is a claim
       | that is absurd beyond belief. What is at issue in the case is
       | _when_ the requirement to serialize adheres and to what it
       | adheres. That is a complex issue. A gun is made of dozens of
       | components. Many are tiny with small surface areas, like springs
       | and pins, and many are replaced over the life of a gun, so
       | serializing them would (a) be ineffective and impractical and (b)
       | could actually confuse the identity of the gun.
       | 
       | So when do we serialize and what do we have to serialize? For a
       | long time, the settled practice in the industry has been that
       | there is _one_ component that is  "the firearm". This part
       | generally is large, is subject to low mechanical stresses, and
       | can be expected to last the life of the gun. This is generally a
       | part called the "receiver" or "frame".
       | 
       | If the receiver is ever damaged beyond repair, regardless of the
       | state of the other parts, then a "new" firearm has to be created
       | and serialized. Although the barrel, trigger, &c, are all the
       | same, it is a different gun now.
       | 
       | This system has actually worked pretty well and has allowed for
       | relatively robust tracing of stolen guns and guns found in
       | investigations of international arms trafficking.
       | 
       | Collections of parts that make up an incomplete gun are of two
       | kinds -- if the receiver is in that collection, the collection of
       | parts is a firearm and has to be sold according to the rules
       | governing transfer of a firearm; if not, it isn't.
       | 
       | A receiver or frame starts life as a large block of metal or
       | plastic. So what if we sell people a parts kit where we have
       | every part of the gun except the receiver, and also an
       | appropriately sized block of metal or plastic? Nothing in this
       | combination has to be serialized and it is not a firearm.
       | 
       | Until recently, this was not really an area of much activity
       | because, while a receiver is subject to low mechanical stresses,
       | that is in relative terms -- relative to other parts of the gun.
       | It is nevertheless a component that takes a fair amount of
       | machining and finishing to get made. What brings us to the "ghost
       | guns" discussion and the Supreme Court case linked in the
       | article, is the degree to which home manufacturing with light
       | tools has improved in recent years. It is actually possible now
       | to make a pretty good receiver without a machine shop. Some
       | people came up with a business of selling people almost complete
       | guns, with a block of plastic or metal and some jigs that allowed
       | them to readily complete the receiver. This is an edge case and
       | it will take some thought to establish when, exactly, we apply
       | the rules regarding serialization. The people making blocks of
       | plastic probably will not be required to serialize all blocks of
       | plastic simply because they are potential firearms (along with
       | potentially being many other things); but the people buying the
       | blocks of plastic to put into kits that they then sell to others
       | in order to make guns probably will be seen to have created a
       | "constructive firearm" and so will be required to serialize them.
        
       | 0898 wrote:
       | I prefer to buy second hand iPhones for my family, and usually
       | use Amazon. But the last couple of iPhones haven't been able to
       | connect to the cellular network at all.
       | 
       | Digging into it, it seems they've been IMEI blocked - i.e.
       | reported stolen. Sending them back to Amazon is always such a
       | pain because it means a visit to the post office.
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Instead of calling it "IMEI Code", perhaps we should call it the
       | "IMEI Cookie".
        
       | Havoc wrote:
       | Anybody know how frequently these get transmitted?
       | 
       | Phones seem to switch off wifi regularly for energy savings, so
       | not particularly useful for detecting iphones at home for home
       | presence automations
        
       | Someone wrote:
       | "Other" isn't really correct, is it? The IMEI is your phone's
       | number, your phone number isn't tied to a phone, but is your user
       | name/chat handle with your provider.
        
       | calrain wrote:
       | Is it possible to record IMEI codes of phones around your
       | location?
       | 
       | Say... to help identify if a specific phone comes around, or what
       | phone/s were around when a break in occurred?
        
       | eknkc wrote:
       | If you buy a phone in Turkey, it's IMEI is registered to a gov
       | authority and you can use / transfer it as you wish.
       | 
       | If you happen to buy one from another country, it will be locked
       | after 60 days of use and no carrier will connect it after that.
       | You can use your passport to to prove that it was not imported
       | commercially but you brought it with you and register it. For
       | $1000 (yeah). And it is locked to your ID. Can't transfer it to
       | someone else.
       | 
       | IMEI cloning from an already registered donor phone was a thing
       | and maybe it still is but as far as I can tell, high end phones
       | pretty much lock it tightly.
       | 
       | BTW, this also affects a lot of other stuff. Can't buy a gps dog
       | tracker from amazon. Can't buy a gsm module for your arduiono
       | etc...
       | 
       | My car has a connectivity system where it provides internet to
       | the in car infotainment system and also allows me to open doors
       | etc remotely. It only recently became operational when the
       | distributor finally managed to register the IMEI numbers. A lot
       | of companies do not bother (Mercedes, BMW etc are equipped with
       | similar systems, not operational)
        
         | vegetablepotpie wrote:
         | > Can't buy a gsm module for your arduiono
         | 
         | What do you mean by that? Ostensibly I can.
         | 
         | https://www.adafruit.com/product/2687
         | 
         | Note: it's on back order, but in theory I would be able to buy
         | a GSM module for my Arduino.
        
           | circuit10 wrote:
           | From reading the message, it wouldn't work in Turkey because
           | the IMEI is blocked
        
             | anticensor wrote:
             | it is a whitelist, not a blacklist
        
           | meeby wrote:
           | They mean you can buy the adapter, but it won't work in
           | Turkey as the EMEI isn't on the official allowed list and
           | isn't registered.
        
           | AceyMan wrote:
           | as a native English speaker I transparently read that
           | as,"there's _no point_ in buying a GSM module [...] ", but I
           | can see how others might possibly be tripped up by that
           | construction.
        
             | eknkc wrote:
             | Oh this is interesting. I'd think it is implied enough that
             | there would be no confusion.
             | 
             | My native Turkish might be seeping through though. Thanks
             | for the heads up.
        
       | BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote:
       | The instructions to changing firmware on a tablet before
       | repartitioning had me backing up and restoring IMEI and MAC
       | address etc.
        
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