[HN Gopher] Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)
___________________________________________________________________
Principles for Keyboard Layouts (2022)
Author : skilled
Score : 87 points
Date : 2024-04-28 07:47 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (anniecherkaev.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (anniecherkaev.com)
| stavros wrote:
| I made my own keyboard, and came to the same realization
| regarding special keys. Now the parentheses are on my shift keys
| (press the left shift for opening parenthesis, right shift for
| closing parenthesis), and the brackets (square and curly) are
| tab+hjkl. That's much more convenient than hunting around with my
| pinky, and I don't have to press a button multiple times to
| switch in and out of a layer.
| eviks wrote:
| Or you could use some right-thumb-hold (or no hold, but one-
| tap) button with the more rows and skip the pinkies, and even
| add closing brackets for the same combo to offset the modifier
| cost
| kugla wrote:
| I believe that https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku should be
| mentioned here.
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Adjacent: https://github.com/davidphilipbarr/Sweep
|
| Sweep is a 34-key split PCB design that you can print and
| assemble yourself.
|
| Happy user for over 3 years.
| dm319 wrote:
| Reminded me of an interesting way to optimise a layout[1] here. I
| feel like something similar expanded to also optimise balancing
| between hands etc could work well.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/EOaPb9wrgDY?si=x1hY8SP5noPWamWP
| Symmetry wrote:
| Interesting, but I think if I were to re-learn touch typing I'd
| go all the way and move to a chording keyboard.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorded_keyboard
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Chording is efficient if you soley write text. It doesn't fit
| for text editing and writing text with lots of punctuation
| (code).
| Symmetry wrote:
| I dunno, not having to move your fingers from their positions
| seems like a big advantage even if you can't get the full X00
| wpm an expert can get in regular text.
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| I agree that reduced finger movement is a crucial step in
| achieving typing efficiency. This is nicely solved by mod
| tap modifiers in QMK/ZMK[1] where key acts as a char when
| tapped and as a layer while pressed.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/docs/m
| od_tap...
| thetacitman wrote:
| Its not bad, and I would recommend it once someone starts going
| crazy with the layers. Instead of having layers, you have
| dictionaries that have sets of chords that all follow a similar
| pattern. For example, this is my symbol "layer":
| https://steno.sammdot.ca/emily-symbols.png Typing on a real
| keyboard is too much work, and I try to avoid it if at all
| possible. Few people seem to know this, but you can also chord
| single letters, it is just slower than chording a full word or
| phrase. I have dictionaries for cursor movement, almost any
| shortcut combination, html tags, cli programs, diacritics, etc.
| I don't know why it is not more popular.
| bloopernova wrote:
| I would like to see something that records your keystrokes and
| gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a
| keyboard arrangement to start from.
|
| Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk?
| Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes?
|
| Edited to add: Does anyone daily-drive a Keyboardio Model 100? I
| really liked the concept and participated in the kickstarter, but
| unfortunately found I didn't enjoy using it that much.
|
| I've settled on a Keychron Q10 with the Alice layout[1]. It's a
| nice compromise between the full on split and standard keyboards.
| It's nice and heavy, with QMK/VIA customization, and some useful
| macro keys I assign to some Emacs shortcuts like M-x and C-g. I
| do wish it had a thumb wheel and/or some Moonlander-style thumb
| keys below the space bars.
|
| [1] https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-
| layout-...
| gumby wrote:
| > I would like to see something that records your keystrokes
| and gives you stats on what you type the most. ... Not sure how
| you'd get around it being a huge security risk?
|
| A small program that locally collects data and lets you analyze
| it locally is pretty much a definition of a computer! IMHO this
| is not the place to worry about a security risk.
|
| Note that the author had video of herself typing and it
| probably didn't trigger the "security risk" reflex because it's
| so obviously safe -- safe enough to post in this case. I mean
| I'm typing right now and when I push the "reply" button _the
| result of my typing will be posted right to the Internet with
| no access restriction!_.
|
| Anyway, with that out of the way: I like your idea. With the
| raw data stream you can look not just for simple frequency but
| n-grams as well. The same data stream could be used to design
| single-handed chord keyboards as well, and even malleable
| layouts for programs with shitty key assignments (I refuse to
| call them "shortcuts").
| 000ooo000 wrote:
| >gives you stats
|
| You might enjoy toying around with this:
| https://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer
|
| Config in the top right lets you load other layouts.
| tiltowait wrote:
| It also has a "personalized layout", though when I tried it a
| few years ago (using a chapter from a novel I wrote as
| input), I was unimpressed and stuck with Colemak.
| bbojan wrote:
| I've built exactly that, but need to polish it a bit before
| releasing. Hopefully will have time to do it soon.
| bluGill wrote:
| The problem with that - the same problem layouts like Dvorak
| have but worse - is that I sometimes have to use other
| computers. Any custom layout will be great for me - once I put
| forth the effort to learn it of course, but since it will only
| be for me nobody else can use my computer (This computer I'm
| using now I don't care as only I touch it). However I have
| computers that others in my family also use, computers at work
| where sometimes I share a keyboard. All of that becomes
| impossible and that negative is greater than any potential
| benefit.
| francis-io wrote:
| Wouldn't a small script that lets you toggle between a QWERTY
| layout and a custom layout solve this problem?
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| Only if it's someone using your machine, rather than you
| using another's machine and re-adjusting to querty.
| 2024throwaway wrote:
| My top menu bar has a toggle to switch layouts, so anyone
| can use my machine. I can also still type QWERTY, so I
| can use any other machine. These are non-problems.
| erksa wrote:
| It's my own experience, and it anecdotally seemed to be
| shared with other people who have modified their main
| keyboard:
|
| The regular qwerty/qwertz keyboards are so ingrained in our
| muscle memory and society (think touchscreen keyboards) that
| they still work as backups and you do not "forget" how to
| efficiently use regular keyboards. I guess it does depend on
| how often you're swapping around.
| bluGill wrote:
| I started with Dvorak young - about the same time I was
| learning "proper" typing (as opposed to hunt and peck). I
| wasn't good enough at QWERTY to go back and so I eventually
| had to give up. Besides, all the studies of typing I've
| seen are not compelling - most don't try to control for
| that fact the alternative layout users are likely to study
| typing and thus be better than average.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I type in Dvorak and 'using other computers' is not a real
| concern: you retain qwerty typing skills even if you use
| Dvorak.
|
| It's like foreign languages: you don't forget English when
| you learn French.
| a-priori wrote:
| I've used Dvorak essentially full-time for the last 20 years
| and I can still type in QWERTY. In fact, I just switched to
| QWERTY just now to type this and it feels a bit awkward and I
| make some typos, but it's perfectly usable.
|
| The hardest part of switching is punctuation and shortcut
| keys, not the letters themselves. But I can use other
| people's computers and usually most people don't know that
| anything's odd.
| brokenmachine wrote:
| Also on your phone/tablet.
|
| I use dvorak so the first thing I have to do when I get a new
| phone is to install an alternative keyboard.
| iwixon wrote:
| I have not used this, but I understand benign-key-logger[1] was
| made for this use case.
|
| [1] https://github.com/Ga68/benign-key-logger
| abecedarius wrote:
| > records your keystrokes and gives you stats
|
| I wrote a little Emacs Lisp for this, never published it. I
| kinda doubt that a similar script would be as easy to write for
| an OS less friendly than Emacs.
| jryb wrote:
| You don't need a keylogger. Just take some things you've
| written and count the characters. It won't be exact since it
| excludes rewrites but the distribution should be very close.
| serial_dev wrote:
| The SwiftKey keyboard (mobile) used to (maybe even today) ask
| for your Gmail account, goes through your stuff, recognizes
| your style and includes your vocabulary.
|
| Ignoring the obvious privacy issues, it provides great
| suggestions and learns some words that are not in the other
| keyboards' dictionaries.
|
| Maybe you could apply the same for aiding an algorithm to
| create a personalized keyboard layout.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| I'd like to also include keyboard shortcuts and commands that
| don't end up in recorded text.
| taeric wrote:
| If you do go down this rabbit hole, you probably want to
| optimize hand alternation. That is, it is not enough to keep
| the high value letters home row, you probably want to split
| them between hands, while keeping them home row. Similarly,
| the slowest combinations of characters will be the ones that
| force a finger to go from top to bottom row. On qwerty, as an
| example, 'cemetery' would be pretty bad for the opening two
| letters.
| erksa wrote:
| ZSA, the company behind the moonlander now has a heatmap
| extension [1]. After running it you get an idea of where your
| heavy keys are.
|
| When creating my own (slightly) modified qwerty layout I found
| it helpful to identify which areas of the keyboard was
| overloaded.
|
| https://blog.zsa.io/2012-introducing-heatmaps/
| ashton314 wrote:
| I used this tool to refine my Moonlander layout. It works
| really well. ZSA is just a wonderful little company. Great
| products, great tech support.
| astrodust wrote:
| Just look at the wear on your keys. Based on a keyboard's wear
| pattern you can often tell what someone does for their job,
| even down to the programming language used or specific apps.
| aendruk wrote:
| I've been tinkering with some ideas around this based on the
| Halmak project [1] which used a genetic algorithm to choose the
| layout. Some day I'll do a writeup about it.
|
| [1]
| https://web.archive.org/web/20200220112444/http://nikolay.ro...
| CountHackulus wrote:
| I daily drive the Keyboardio Model 100. I like it a lot, but I
| really would like to remap a few of the special characters. It
| works fantastically well for just arbitrary documents, but
| writing C++ is frustrating. The custom shape of all the keycaps
| makes it basically impossible to remap without just using clear
| keycaps.
| zubairshaik wrote:
| Once you have a corpus of your own personal text, I'd recommend
| to use the current best analyzer, oxeylyzer[0]. You can find
| more details on the Alternate Keyboard Layout discord.
|
| [0] https://github.com/O-X-E-Y/oxeylyzer
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > I would like to see something that records your keystrokes
| and gives you stats on what you type the most. Then spits out a
| keyboard arrangement to start from.
|
| > Not sure how you'd get around it being a huge security risk?
| Maybe only write totals for keypresses every 30 minutes?
|
| I did this once with a terrible script that just recorded keys
| with... I forget, probably either xev or `xinput test`.
| Anyways, yes, huge potential security/privacy risk but IMO it's
| fine if you keep it local and don't persist to disk without
| encryption (read: put the file on an encrypted filesystem or
| tmpfs). I specifically didn't want just the per-key total
| presses because I was interested in use of shortcuts and common
| substrings (IIRC I was looking at what to make macros of to
| save typing); if you _just_ care about what actual keys get
| pressed the most and are only looking at rearranging the same
| keys then aggregation might make it safer.
| rpmisms wrote:
| If you want a privacy-compatible logger, simply record every
| two-key sequence with a counter on each. That way, order is
| obscured, but you have a relational graph.
| luqtas wrote:
| if you run QMK & have a Teensy board;
| https://precondition.github.io/qmk-heatmap
|
| if you don't, https://github.com/suurjaak/InputScope ... you
| can even track key presses per app!
| bradley13 wrote:
| I spent a lot of time on this, back in my bored 20's. A super-
| optimized keyboard layout, which I used for a year. I measured my
| typing speed on qwerty before the change, and on the optimized
| keyboard after using it for a year.
|
| Yep, you do type faster. In my case, it was 10%. Honestly, it
| wasn't worth it. There are way too many disadvantages, not least
| of which is the fact that that only _your_ computer has your
| weird keyboard. Also, typing 10% faster is pretty irrelevant: how
| much of your time are you typing flat-out?
|
| If you need an ergonomic keyboard, that's a different thing.
| There are lots of those. Get one that uses qwerty.
| dustincoates wrote:
| > not least of which is the fact that that only your computer
| has your weird keyboard.
|
| Fair, but how often are most people typing on someone else's
| computer? (Outside of developers who do pairing.)
| bradley13 wrote:
| For me, it somehow happens all the time. Helping out co-
| workers, friends or family. Using a different workstation
| than usual (we no longer have assigned desks). Sure, you can
| mentally "switch" layouts, but it's a pain.
|
| Then there's the reverse: My PC at home - wife wants to check
| something quickly without turning on her PC.
|
| Finally: I regularly use both a PC and a laptop. Depending on
| how weird you want the layout to get, there may not be a way
| to use it on the laptop. Schlepping an external keyboard
| around - nope, not practical.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| at home I have a number of laptops. Any of them may become a
| shared laptop at any point in time with zero notice :) ( I
| already get enough grief for having the black original Das
| keyboard on my main desktop.)
|
| At work there's less sharing but back when we were in the
| office, it happened. I also have two work provided laptops
| (one from my employer and one from client) which are
| _heavily_ locked down.
|
| Finally there's all the other keyboard manifestations in my
| life - on my work iphone and my personal android phone and
| the tablets and all the tv apps that pop up a keyboard to
| sign in etc.
|
| Qwerty may be suboptimal but it's freaking everywhere.
| dannyz wrote:
| Similarly I switched to Colemak, and I agree, it's not worth it
| for most people.
|
| I switched because I never typed with proper technique in
| QWERTY. I would only use ~2 fingers on my right hand. I tried
| multiple times to retrain myself but there was just too much
| muscle memory. The only way for me to switch to proper
| technique was to switch layouts.
| bbojan wrote:
| I'm probably much older than you, and I found the reduced
| travel or the alternative layouts much more important than
| speed. Your hands will thank you one day.
| lawn wrote:
| > There are way too many disadvantages, not least of which is
| the fact that that only your computer has your weird keyboard.
|
| Meh. I can type fine on both my weird layout and on a regular
| one (either Swedish or English layout).
|
| Your point about speed I agree with, but I'll say that the
| point of an alternative layout shouldn't be speed, it's about
| comfort.
| zZorgz wrote:
| I've been typing in both qwerty and colemak around the same
| speed (>=100 WPM) for almost a decade. I ultimately ended up
| deciding to use qwerty at work and colemak at home. At least
| for me the comfort difference between layouts is marginal.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| I went down that path 10 plus years ago. When I was writing my
| first book, my fingers got really sore.
|
| I built (two) ErgoDox(en) and ended up using the Norman layout
| with various attempts at layers over the years. I'm now using a
| Lily58 with low-profile choc switches that I'm generally happy
| with.
|
| I'm fine switching back to Qwerty keyboards, but if I were to
| go down the path again, I would advise myself to stick with
| Qwerty. I still have a pretty crazy keyboard layout and
| appreciate the ergonomic features.
|
| Also, I've realized that everyone is different, and what works
| for one might not work for someone else.
|
| Advice that I think works for everyone is to listen to your
| body. If your body is telling you that something isn't right,
| take steps to address them.
| samatman wrote:
| This problem can be largely avoided, for those of us who use a
| laptop frequently (most of us, I imagine): just leave the
| laptop layout standard, or lightly modified. I've remapped all
| of three keys, as a result I can use a stock keyboard with a
| smallish amount of mental adjustment.
|
| The split key ortho plugged into my monitor, therefore, can be
| as weird as I want. It's heavily customized and I can do more
| with it, faster, easier. I do type about 15% faster flat-out
| with it, but more importantly, I can send l with little more
| effort than `l`. But since the laptop has the default layout, I
| remain "bilingual", two independent muscle memories can be
| maintained pretty easily if one regularly uses both.
|
| The ortho does have a QWERTY layout for the alphabetic keys,
| since I don't see the point in changing that, but I don't
| expect it would make a difference if it didn't.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| moonlander is best lander. if you type for a living, buy one and
| never look back.
| bbojan wrote:
| I would say it's an excellent entry level split ortho keyboard,
| but it's quite large. Later you can go to a 50 key one or
| lower.
| gbrindisi wrote:
| disagree, it is a good keyboard but the thumb cluster is not
| ergonomic. There is better, especially if you are up to build
| one yourself with a kit. Otherwise the voyager is already an
| improvement over the moonlander.
| lawn wrote:
| Hard disagree.
|
| The thumb layout is designed for very large hands and way too
| many keys in difficult to reach positions.
|
| Fact is, there's no one keyboard that's ideal for everyone.
| tiltowait wrote:
| Have to say I also disagree[0]. For my money, the Keyboardio
| Model 100 has been the best keyboard in terms of functionality
| and acceptable compromises, but it's not perfect either. I miss
| the Kinesis Advantage's key wells (note: if you're looking to
| buy one, buy the 360, not the Advantage2), but the Keyboardio's
| thumb cluster and palm keys offset that loss.
|
| Looking at custom keyboards, the Dactyl is probably quite good.
|
| [0] Even if it's a huge step above normal keyboards.
| zubairshaik wrote:
| For a full size keyboard, I'd highly recommend the Glove80 [0]
| instead. For something more compact and portable, look at ZSA's
| own Voyager [1].
|
| The reason I'd recommend the Glove80 is because a keywell is
| just so much nicer to type on, especially if you want to
| actually be able to use the number row without straining your
| fingers. Their thumb cluster is also the most sane one that
| I've come across, and the absolute though put into the design
| is astounding and commendable [2]. The article is definitely
| worth a read.
|
| I recommend the Voyager especially if you are a believer in
| 1DFH (1-distance-from-home)[3]. It has very few keys so you'll
| have to learn about layers [4] and/or home-row mods[5] or my
| favorite callum-style mods [6].
|
| [0] https://www.moergo.com/
|
| [1] https://www.zsa.io/voyager/
|
| [2] https://www.moergo.com/pages/glove80-ergonomic-keyboard-
| desi...
|
| [3] https://zealot.hu/absolem/
|
| [4] https://blog.zsa.io/layers-explained/
|
| [5] https://precondition.github.io/home-row-mods
|
| [6] https://github.com/callum-
| oakley/qmk_firmware/tree/master/us...
| 000ooo000 wrote:
| I settled on Workman 8 years ago, as the methodology behind it
| seemed pretty sensible. It's definitely nicer to type on than
| qwerty, IMO. I do however notice occasionally that some words are
| skewed to a particular hand. It definitely doesn't plague me, nor
| is it enough of a bother that I have even looked at other
| layouts. I wonder if it's even possible to adjust the layout to
| improve this, or does the same problem just pop up somewhere
| else, so to speak.
| bbojan wrote:
| I found Workman horrible for same-letter bigrams.
|
| After testing a lot of different layouts I've settled on a
| slightly modified Colemak-DH.
| zargon wrote:
| Do you mean same-finger bigrams? I can't think of how same-
| letter bigrams could have an effect on layout preference.
| james2doyle wrote:
| I use Workman as well. I tried Colemak (a bunch of variants)
| and it never sat well with me. There are some words on Workman
| that hammer the same hand. "People" is one that trips me up
| sometimes that is very common. Overall, I like Workman too
| inawarminister wrote:
| I like to write Clojure, and getting away from home row to write
| the parentheses was... annoying. I did try (and my fingers still
| remember!) Colemak a few years back, though.
|
| I found Neo2, which is a German keyboard layout with 5-6 layers
| of keys (which is ironic since I don't actually... speak German).
| Tried Neo2 vanilla and Bone/other layout, but nowadays I'm just
| using QWERTZ + Neo2 layers, which is available for Linux and
| Windows/Mac with utilities.
|
| Just look at the following layout!! https://dl.neo-
| layout.org/grafik/bilder-einzeln/flat/neo_qwe...
|
| Now I'm thinking, maybe modifying Colemak with Neo2-style layer
| 3-6 might be perfect for me, and a few others...?
| bloopernova wrote:
| oh wow, I could absolutely see those home row keys being super
| useful if they are easy to get to.
| tapia wrote:
| I started using noted (also a variant of neo2) [1] and I love
| it. I did change some things in the Layer 4 (mostly placed the
| numbers on the left hand and arrows arranged in-line, similar
| to vim). I really like how it works. I'm using a split
| keyboard, specifically the Lily58.
|
| [1] https://neo-layout.org/Layouts/noted/
| smartmic wrote:
| I am also a Neo2 user for years and do not even think of
| changing back to QWERTZ. The community is quite active and
| spits out new, optimized layouts from time to time. They have
| their own tools for analyzing and optimization. Some background
| here (in German, use your translator): https://maximilian-
| schillinger.de/keyboard-layouts-neo-adnw-...
| inawarminister wrote:
| Thanks! The comparison table is really enlightening. I think
| I'll try hacking up Colemak first with layer 3-6, but if I
| can't make it I'll try habituating with KOY layout.
| Adverblessly wrote:
| Here are my personal principals:
|
| 1. Don't use too many thumb buttons, especially at odd angles,
| they just make my thumbs hurt after too much typing.
|
| 2. Don't use layers for any frequently used buttons, having to
| keep a button held for a while frequently just leads to more
| pain.
|
| 3. Function keys are mandatory. They aren't used frequently
| enough that having them in a "far" location is a problem, but
| when I do use them it is great that they exist (and don't require
| some strange layer combination press).
|
| 4. Home/End/PgUp/PgDown/Delete are all mandatory and should be
| somewhere near the (also mandatory) cursor keys and a shift key.
| Not sure how people survive programming without these buttons ;)
| bloopernova wrote:
| Your points sound like my daily driver keyboard might work:
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-...
| goosedragons wrote:
| How are you doing layers? I have zero pain problems holding the
| delete key (on my Kinesis Advantage) to shift into my second
| layer for things like (,),{,}. It's way less pain then the
| using a typical keyboard layout. Hell it's easier than actual
| Shift.
|
| I think your other principles are pretty personal. I obviously
| never use delete. Rarely use function keys or home/end/etc. I
| use cursor keys a bunch but the Kinesis has those in a spot I
| like.
| Adverblessly wrote:
| > How are you doing layers?
|
| With my thumb, since I'd need the other fingers to reach the
| actual buttons on the layer (usually). Sadly, this breaks my
| other principals so it doesn't work well for me. Not sure
| where you delete key is, but I guess it might work well with
| a pinky key instead (like I can use ctrl+something), but I
| don't really have a key like that I'd be willing to give up
| :)
|
| > I think your other principles are pretty personal.
|
| Very much so! Which is why the first sentence of my comment
| was "Here are my personal principals", emphasis on "personal"
| :)
| goosedragons wrote:
| Delete is on the left thumb cluster on the Kinesis
| Advantage. Would it be better if it was something like a
| toggle like Caps Lock?
| cranium wrote:
| I found that layer on thumb + cursor keys on home row is really
| pleasing to use. It's like having a better HJKL working in all
| programs.
|
| See
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/qmk_firmware/tree/maste...
| riversflow wrote:
| Yes! I have a layer accessible by a press and hold on my
| keyboard (mostly qwerty layout) that gives me arrow keys
| under FDSE, PgUp/Down and Home/End on 4,R,5,T. It also has
| custom chords of ctrl + shift, ctrl, alt+shift, alt on the
| Tab, Capslock, Q, A keys.
|
| Really useful.
| samatman wrote:
| I love thumb clusters. But I have large hands. The great thing
| about the Cambrian explosion of mechanical keyboards is that
| people can find a layout which works for them, mentally and
| physiologically.
| Adverblessly wrote:
| I have large hands as well (and proportionally long thumbs as
| well I think). I think it is just that my thumbs don't really
| "like" the rotations required to reach all the keys in the
| cluster. It also doesn't help that pressing with the thumb
| ends up being a "sideways" press, which is not a natural
| direction for the thumb to go.
| CarVac wrote:
| 1. More thumb buttons = more better, _only_ if they are placed
| well (extremely close to the bottom row of the alpha keys.
|
| 2. Layers are fine for frequently used keys if activated by the
| thumb. I have backspace, delete, numbers (home row), symbols,
| punctuation, and the f keys on layers.
|
| 3. Yes.
|
| 4. Vim is the answer.
| weinzierl wrote:
| The layout in the article is on a split ortho keyboard and I
| think this is the best arrangement for a modern keyboard.
|
| What I think is not so obvious is, that the staggering makes
| traditional non-split keyboards bearable, because it allows to
| touch type with both hands at a slight angle.
|
| At least this is true when using the European fingering. In the
| US version the number row is awkward to type with angled hands.
| smeej wrote:
| I tried switching to an ortholinear keyboard and found it
| ergonomically unbearable, even after tweaking the layout. My
| fingers DO NOT move in straight lines when I extend them! They
| are significantly farther apart when extended than they are
| contracted.
|
| I was appalled when I found out most people who think
| ortholinear keyboards are an improvement have been typing Z
| with their little fingers instead of their ring fingers, X with
| their ring fingers instead of their middle fingers, etc. Sure,
| ortholinear is an improvement on that disaster of a hand
| position! But that's a terrible way to type, so not a good
| thing to compare to!
|
| I'm baffled that people have enjoyed the experience. To me it
| felt like a torture device.
| lawn wrote:
| I totally agree. Ortholinear keyboards have crap ergonomics.
|
| Column stagger is what you want, and maybe even a concave
| keyboard.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| Yeah, I'm not sold that ortholinear is better. I switch
| between ortho and traditional often and honestly don't notice
| much of a difference in ergonomics. Really the biggest
| comfort thing for me is the split. Being able to open up my
| chest feels really good.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| > because it allows to touch type with both hands at a slight
| angle
|
| I see this sort of thing repeated and I always feel compelled
| to disagree. I'm sitting here typing on a mono-ortho board and
| I can choose to angle my wrists or _not_ angle my wrists. That
| part has nothing to do with the choice of ortho or stagger.
| weinzierl wrote:
| If you strech out your fingers from your angled wrist they
| will follow the angle because the joints in our fingers have
| only a single degree of freedom. Do you reach for the key
| vertically above and below or do you angle your wrist 45deg
| and reach for the diagonals?
|
| With a staggered layout the angle is somewhere between and
| similar to what most people angle their split halves.
| lawn wrote:
| I'll advice against keycap labels and printing a cheat sheet.
|
| Relying on them will feel better, but it's a crutch and you'll
| learn faster if you force yourself to do it the hard way of
| remembering.
|
| And before you mention it, the layout I use is quite complicated,
| and I still think it's much better to learn without any aid:
|
| https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2022/09/06/the_current_t-34...
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| I would definitely advise creating a cheat sheet. But probably
| not want for the reasons you are thinking.
|
| Custom/mechanical keyboards are a rabbit hole and you might end
| up with a few of them, each configured slightly differently.
| You might want to know how to come back to them (especially if
| they have blank keycaps or extensive layers).
| samatman wrote:
| Seems sort of irrelevant if one is already a touch typist.
|
| Personally, I find labeled keycaps pleasant for a few reasons:
| One is that I have a glowy keyboard, which is aesthetically
| enjoyable to me (or I wouldn't have one), and it wouldn't be as
| much fun if the LEDs were just shining up through identical
| dots.
|
| Also, I find it useful to re-register my fingers. I added
| Braille dots to all the alphabetic keys, so I can also do this
| by touch, but a quick glance down also does the trick. For
| whatever reason, checking that my pinky will hit p is the most
| common case here.
|
| Last, I find it helpful with chords, especially when I add a
| new one to the firmware. Layers as well. I do intend to
| converge on what my other two layers do, but there's been some
| churn, and it's easier to remember what a key does on a
| particular layer when it has a distinct symbol. Modified key
| commands which I frequently use are part of the muscle memory,
| but when I'm adding a new command to the repertoire, precisely
| where the key finger needs to go once the modifying finger has
| hit command/control/meta isn't kinesthetically obvious at
| first.
|
| Note that this is from a baseline of touch typing, so I
| naturally stop double-checking things once I've done them
| enough. If you don't touch type, do yourself a huge favor and
| learn. Some people find blank keycaps helpful here, especially
| if they have many years of whatever ad-hoc system they use to
| type with.
|
| Some people aesthetically prefer no keycaps as well. Also
| functionally: it's just easier for them to think about a key
| geometrically rather than symbolically. I don't think there's a
| one-for-all answer on this.
| lawn wrote:
| > Seems sort of irrelevant if one is already a touch typist.
|
| My comment was made with the context of learning a new layout
| (or a new keyboard or learning to touch type).
| benji-york wrote:
| Something I don't see in keyboard layouts often is mouse buttons.
| I use a trackball between my keyboard halves and prefer using
| mouse buttons on my left hand while moving the trackball with the
| right.
|
| https://imgur.com/Eac4PVL
| ykonstant wrote:
| An embedded trackball/buttons at the sides of a split keyboard
| like the Advantage 360 would be great. But my bigger issue with
| that is that I would like the thumb cluster itself to be on the
| sides, towards which the thumb curves naturally.
| AlexErrant wrote:
| I have a Charybdis https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/
|
| Highly recommend. I daily drive vim and still scroll around in
| there with the trackball haha.
|
| My trackball's also on the right, and also use mouse buttons on
| the left, but of course everything's customizable.
| chrishill89 wrote:
| I've made my own software keyboard using Xkb (Linux). Based on a
| standard (ISO/European) keyboard. It's qwerty but I've made
| changes in order to (first motivation) more easily be able to
| write all kinds of symbols. So the number row is repurposed to
| providing keys like Shift, level 3 (after shift), level 4, and
| level 5. On both sides. For example shift is `4` and `8`.
|
| - Shift: normal
|
| - Level 3: mostly symbols
|
| - Level 4: numpad on the _home row_ (since I've repurposed the
| number row)
|
| - Level 5: less used symbols
|
| Also on the number row:
|
| - Ctrl+V
|
| - Ctrl+Insert (Linux: paste primary selection)
|
| - Menu
|
| - Compose key (both sides)
|
| - Lock shift (Caps Lock leaves keys like `.` alone but this one
| locks to Shift for all keys)
|
| In addition to the compose key I've mapped several unused keysyms
| (like Kanji) to map to various symbols and expansions. There I
| mostly use `key + <1> + <2>` where I can press `<1>` and `<2>` in
| any order (meaning two compose sequences for each). So I can
| press the initial key and then just mash the two others and get
| what I want. Those Kanji symbols are mapped to some fringe (to
| the sides) keys that I don't need anymore because they're on
| level 3.
|
| It's derived from my regional keyboard (Norwegian) but it could
| be modified to work with the standard US layout.
|
| I've had some troubles with it after Ubuntu 22.04/Gnome 3. Now it
| only works in most applications. But not certain others like
| gnome-terminal. It seems to be because of the X/Wayland split. So
| there are some painpoints that I haven't ironed out yet. And I'm
| not eager to start since debugging Xkb can be painful and non-
| obvious.
| nprateem wrote:
| Jeez, the stretch to the furthest thumb keys is an RSI injury
| waiting to happen.
| knallfrosch wrote:
| I bought a Glove80 which has everything: split, ortholinear,
| concave, mechanical, wireless, backlight, open firmware..
|
| But find myself switching back to a default keyboard
| nevertheless.
|
| Instead of trying to reach everything with my fingers and
| reaching for those faraway keys, I just move my arm - that's far
| superior. Also I can switch which hands hit the middle keys like
| G and H.
|
| Plus I can type some stuff one-handedly, which is simply not
| possible on a split keyboard.
| zubairshaik wrote:
| I think if you are switching over for speed gains or just for
| fun, sure it may be inconvenient and not worth the effort.
| However, many people switch to ergonomic split keyboards
| because they have to due to RSI or tenosynovitis (as was my
| case) or at great risk of such.
|
| For those people, I highly recommend you to go ahead and buy a
| Glove80, you will actually be able to type again without pain.
| It's a learning curve, but gaining back control of your own
| hands is so, so worth it. You also need to be patient, it took
| me about a month and a half before the pain was entirely gone.
| I also continue to do my daily hand, wrist and arm exercises
| which help greatly as well.
| zubairshaik wrote:
| Great write-up. Any one who wants to dive way way deeper into
| keyboard layout optimization should look into the subreddit[0] as
| well as the Alternate Keyboard Layout Discord. It is a shame that
| most of the collective knowledge is stuck on a proprietary
| platform like Discord but there is a wealth of information there.
| The current more highly recommended layouts for most people
| (because of statistics, ease of use, comfort, etc.) is a family
| of layout known as nrts haei named after the homerow for these
| layouts.
|
| If you want to take a peek at them I recommend these two layouts
| and their accompanying motivations: Graphite[1] and Gallium [2].
| I especially recommend Graphite if you want to optimize your
| punctuation for programming as well as your alpha keys, since
| most layouts don't consider moving around punctuation beyond the
| semicolon and the comma keys. Feel free to ask me any questions
| you might have.
|
| [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts
|
| [1] https://github.com/rdavison/graphite-layout
|
| [2] https://github.com/GalileoBlues/Gallium
| ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
| I built a Corne a year ago and while I love it for most things I
| still find I stumble around looking for brackets and special
| characters at times. And I find I use the numbers often enough
| that I'd like to try with a board with a dedicated row.
|
| I have a new case to print which adds a number row and four keys
| down the bottom right so I can add dedicated arrow keys. I quite
| often want to hit some of those keys with a single hand but I may
| need the modifier from one half and a key on the other.
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| I use a homemade non-split "ortholinear" variant. You can make
| all sorts of changes in the name of optimization, but the truth
| is most optimizations have very little chance of catching on
| because they are opaque and confusing to normal people.
|
| I have some of my own principles for making a keyboard that
| embraces change while still being usable to someone passing by.
| Yes they might hate it, but at least they could use it in a
| pinch.
|
| 1. Label your keys. Yes it's nice to have your layout memorized,
| but they have labels for a reason. That reason being that not
| everyone who approaches a keyboard has the layout memorized. And
| this is especially important for mission-critical keypresses.
| (And guess what's difficult to label? A chord.)
|
| 2. Don't replace mission-critical keys with a chord. Function
| keys (like F5) can do bad things when pressed accidentally.
| Requiring a chord for such a key is asking for accidental
| presses.
|
| 3. Try to keep your keys generally where they are with a standard
| keyboard. I bend my slanted columns into vertical ones, but for
| the most part the keys can be found near where you'd normally
| find them.
|
| I also question whether some of the optimizations claimed by
| people are truly optimizations. Were you really getting carpal
| tunnel by occasionally holding the Ctrl key with your pinky?
| Probably not. Most of the strain I observe comes from simple
| overuse. The only times I've ever felt fatigue were when doing
| typing tests repeatedly.
|
| I'm not trying to "yuck" anyone's "yum"; I just think we should
| be honest and admit that most of the keyboard changes we make are
| more about having fun, and less about practicality. I use some
| chords and I have fun in doing so. But I also know that all of
| that nonsense will be completely rejected by most people sitting
| down to actually use my keyboard, unless they happen to be
| slightly adventurous like myself.
|
| I like to imagine keyboards that could perhaps (however
| fantastical) eventually catch on with the general public, given
| enough time and attrition. Those are the kinds of keyboards I
| build and use.
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