[HN Gopher] Fragmented thinking is a bigger threat to flow state...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Fragmented thinking is a bigger threat to flow state than
       interruptions
        
       Author : nickwritesit
       Score  : 212 points
       Date   : 2024-04-25 10:33 UTC (3 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.stackblitz.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.stackblitz.com)
        
       | Kinrany wrote:
       | "Boring tasks shatter flow state even in the absence of external
       | distractions"?
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | They give few examples unfortunately, but the "writing a commit
         | message" is one.
        
           | elevaet wrote:
           | Writing a commit message doesn't seem like a good example
           | because it's usually a moment where you _can_ pause the flow
           | state because you 've just completed the thing that needed
           | flow
           | 
           | They're more like the period at the end of a sentence, so
           | that you can flow into the next one.
        
             | leetrout wrote:
             | I have found it to be a sign of inexperience when devs
             | protest "good" (whatever that means to you) commit
             | messages.
             | 
             | They seem to have never worked with legacy code that has a
             | good commit history you can rely on.
             | 
             | Arguing commits break flow would likely come from the same
             | mouth that comments are useless and the code is self
             | documenting. The "doesn't write code thinking of others"
             | type.
        
               | em-bee wrote:
               | when i am writing commit messages i am actually very
               | focused. i study the changes and try to condense them
               | into a helpful description. incidently i am working with
               | legacy code now which has me studying the commit history
               | forwards and backwards, and good commit messages that
               | allow me to discover changes that i am interested in are
               | really making a difference.
        
               | tengbretson wrote:
               | I've actually found the opposite to be true. That usually
               | the people harping for rich commit messages are the ones
               | not thinking of others. That they are trying to get their
               | coworkers to bend or produce extra work just to make
               | their personal workflow more ergonomic. The information
               | they seek is already redundantly documented, often 3
               | times over in the form of PR messages, jira tickets,
               | requirements documents, slack history, etc.
        
               | wnoise wrote:
               | But are they at all discoverable from the code base?
               | Those PR messages, jira tickets, and slack history ought
               | to be linked to in the commit message, and that
               | requirements document checked in.
               | 
               | (None of those links help when you switch to different
               | providers; but that might not be too bad, depending on
               | timescales of those changes)
        
               | hedora wrote:
               | Most teams I've been on just link to the PR from Jira and
               | Slack. The PR links to the commit message, and the commit
               | message explains the change.
               | 
               | Other stuff like "this is ready, can you review it?", or
               | "we can ship feature X now" lives in the other tools.
               | 
               | Note that (in the rare case where you want to), you can
               | then search for links to old PRs in the other tools.
               | Also, putting the jira ticket number in the commit
               | message usually makes sense.
        
               | em-bee wrote:
               | anything that is not in the commit message or in the
               | commit itself is practically useless. documentation
               | covers how to use a thing. it usually doesn't cover why a
               | change was made. that why also normally does not end up
               | in code comments, and even less so would be aparent from
               | the change it self. the commit message remains the only
               | place where the why can be documented meaningfully and
               | along with the change where it is needed.
               | 
               | at least in my current project working with legacy code
               | that i am not familiar with, the why is the most
               | important detail about a commit.
        
               | adamors wrote:
               | In a perfect world yes that is true, but I've worked at
               | multiple places where Jira got reshuffled by someone and
               | either entire projects got deleted or ticket ids were
               | reset.
               | 
               | Slack history and requirement documents are rarely linked
               | in commit messages and looking through thousands of
               | documents and channels to search the context of a commit
               | is nauseating.
               | 
               | There's never a need to write an essay in a commit
               | message, but 2-3 paragraphs won't kill anybody either.
        
               | tengbretson wrote:
               | There are better uses of resources than to amortize the
               | cost of a jira migration that may never even happen
               | across all devs in perpetuity.
        
               | throwuxiytayq wrote:
               | Jira always gets shut down before the repo. Often _years_
               | before. For a thousand reasons. Take these two, for
               | example: git is free, and jira is shit.
        
               | hedora wrote:
               | I find writing commit messages helps my development flow:
               | 
               | Why did I spend an hour refactoring 1000 lines of rust
               | code again?
               | 
               | It worked the first time I got it to compile again, so
               | it's probably fine, but it was a subtle non-functional
               | change. I'd better commit + write a good message so:
               | 
               | - I don't forget why I just did that
               | 
               | - In case I need to back out the next step
               | 
               | - So that my coworkers know what I'm up to, and don't ask
               | me on slack.
        
               | andoando wrote:
               | PRs are merged squash everywhere I worked, so whats the
               | point? Commit messages are hardly ever useful for me
               | working on a task for a few days or even weeks.
        
               | leetrout wrote:
               | Git keeps the commit messages when using `git merge
               | --squash`.
               | 
               | By default it will produce a commit message starting with
               | `Squashed commit of the following:`
               | 
               | The contents of this message are staged in
               | `.git/SQUASH_MSG`.
               | 
               | When using GitHub the squash merge commit behavior is
               | configurable and the teams I've been on have kept it
               | configured to keep the commit messages of the commits
               | being squashed. I assume GitLab has similar
               | functionality.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | Yes, I didn't find it entirely convincing either, other
             | than if you struggle with the right wording for the commit
             | message, then it indeed can have the effect of being more
             | of a disrupting break than if you were seamlessly
             | proceeding with the next connected coding step that your
             | mind was already occupied with.
        
           | sanderjd wrote:
           | I think a better example that might be more broadly relatable
           | would be "a lot of latency between writing something and
           | seeing if it works", ie. long compile times, slow tests, long
           | startup time for an executable, needing to restart a server,
           | etc.
           | 
           | There is no "turn off slack notifications" solutions to this
           | kind of thing, and it's a big persistent flow-shattering time
           | sink for me.
        
           | hodgesrm wrote:
           | One of the truly great programmers I met at VMware was almost
           | obsessive in the way that he thought about not just commit
           | messages but the entire structure of the commit log. The goal
           | was to make changes appear as a flow of understandable
           | commits that build to some greater goal.
        
             | hodgesrm wrote:
             | I would add that's in some sense "externalizing" an ideal
             | flow state in the sense of the article. Real flows are
             | hesitating and often emerge incoherently. So you end up
             | reworking the commits to represent the path you would have
             | followed had you understood things fully at the start.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | I'm hereby coining the term "literate committing" for that.
             | :)
        
       | bluerooibos wrote:
       | What a horrific article. At least define fragmented thinking for
       | us and provide some sort of conclusion/TLDR for this waffle.
        
         | causal wrote:
         | This felt like someone trying to fill out a word count
        
         | ranprieur wrote:
         | Yes, it repeats itself so much I kept thinking I had
         | accidentally scrolled up.
        
       | JonChesterfield wrote:
       | Thinking incoherently can definitely cause more problems than
       | being repeatedly interrupted.
       | 
       | Concluding that the interruptions aren't so bad is consistent
       | with this observation.
       | 
       | It does not generalise to all developers.
        
       | sanderjd wrote:
       | I think the primary point here is that interruptions don't only
       | happen _externally_ , but also _internally_. I think this point
       | is a bit obscured by the article 's use of this "fragmented
       | thinking" terminology, which it does not do a good job of
       | defining before building an argument on top of it. (I found
       | myself searching for those words to see if I had missed the
       | definition.)
       | 
       | However, I do think this is an insightful point! I think these
       | "internal interruptions" are indeed a big problem for me, and one
       | I don't think about nearly as much, but will try to more now that
       | I've read this article.
       | 
       | The frustrating thing about external interruptions is the
       | inability to control them. Things like turning off notifications
       | and putting on headphones are mechanisms to reduce that
       | frustration by imposing control over those interruptions.
       | 
       | The good news for these _internal_ interruptions is that it
       | should be much easier to control them. But it requires being
       | aware of the problem! So I 'm thankful to this article for making
       | this more top of mind for me.
        
         | Swizec wrote:
         | > The good news for these internal interruptions is that it
         | should be much easier to control them
         | 
         | Just get good sleep, great nutrition, enough exercise, and
         | remove all stressors from your life. How hard can it be!?
         | 
         | Yes really that's the source/cause of most internal
         | distractions.
        
           | sanderjd wrote:
           | I think this is true, but I was also thinking about more
           | specific things. Like identifying, "ok, what do I commonly do
           | in my own workflow that interrupts me from what I'm working
           | on". In another comment I used the example of wanting to see
           | the results of something I just did, but having to wait for
           | something that executes slowly. Another example of something
           | I'm guilty of is going down premature refactoring rabbit
           | holes.
           | 
           | But all of the general good mental health stuff you mentioned
           | helps maintain the right focused mental state to introspect
           | about where you're getting interrupted, figuring out how to
           | avoid those things, and then actually avoiding them.
        
           | manicdee wrote:
           | Ha ha yeah. Let me just remove all that childhood trauma and
           | PTSD, then we'll get this train of thought right back on
           | track. Why didn't I think of that sooner?
        
         | erikerikson wrote:
         | Yes, the headline term was never truly defined for use. Past
         | the headline it didn't get used until almost half way through
         | and then assumed you knew what was meant by it. Only near the
         | end were there hints as to what the writer was referencing.
         | 
         | Good job pulling out a very plausible interpretation though. We
         | talk about this in our dev meetings and attempt to proactively
         | identify and resolve sources. Having well defined and coherent
         | contexts improved our work and the emotional experiences of
         | doing it. This has been helping me recapture the joy of coding.
         | 
         | Shouldn't have taken starting a company fellow business
         | leaders.
        
         | Tainnor wrote:
         | > The frustrating thing about external interruptions is the
         | inability to control them. [...] The good news for these
         | internal interruptions is that it should be much easier to
         | control them.
         | 
         | Interestingly, I feel the exact opposite. I'm aware that it's
         | not always possible or socially acceptable to do so, but at
         | least in theory you can always make a choice to ignore or tune
         | out other people. Ignoring the stuff that is going on in your
         | own head is IMHO much harder.
        
           | sanderjd wrote:
           | Yeah I clearly worded this poorly. What I meant to say is
           | that it should be much easier to control _only_ the internal
           | interruptions, compared to the necessity to control both the
           | external ones _and_ the internal ones. That is, the existence
           | of external interruptions doesn 't make the internal ones go
           | away, they're just additive on top, which can only make
           | things more difficult.
        
         | justinpombrio wrote:
         | > The good news for these internal interruptions is that it
         | should be much easier to control them.
         | 
         | For a long-time meditator, this is comedic gold. Just control
         | your internal interruptions, stay focused. That's all, eh?
         | Hehehehehe
        
           | Terr_ wrote:
           | "My boss is always interrupting me with questions, and the
           | office is very noisy. There's no easy fix for either of those
           | external things, so you're lucky that all you have to deal
           | with is internal ADHD and tinnitus!" /s
        
             | sanderjd wrote:
             | But you still have to deal with those internal issues in a
             | noisy distracting office! Being interrupted more by other
             | people doesn't make it easier to manage internal struggles,
             | it is a strictly additive difficulty.
        
           | sanderjd wrote:
           | Not _easy_ , eas _ier_! For  "external interruptions", you
           | have to do both things, keep people from bugging you _and_
           | control your own mind. I think it 's definitely easier to
           | only do one of the two, despite still being really hard.
        
             | saulpw wrote:
             | It's actually easier to control your external environment
             | than your internal environment. If interruptions or
             | distractions are like a monkey hopping around, then at
             | least with an external monkey you can put it outside and
             | lock the door. With an internal monkey you're stuck with
             | it. Drugs help but come with side effects; meditation helps
             | but takes concerted long-term effort separate from work.
             | (And it's hard to motivate yourself in addition to your
             | already long workday to improve your performance during
             | said workday.)
        
           | zmgsabst wrote:
           | As a long time meditator, I'm not sure what you find amusing.
           | 
           | Are you saying you have more control of what other people do
           | than your own mind? If not, what are you objecting to in
           | saying that it's _easier_ to control yourself than others?
           | 
           | I'm really struggling not to see your comment as living down
           | to stereotypes: vapidly smug.
        
             | avtar wrote:
             | After enough hours of meditation practice it becomes quite
             | clear that one's mind is ungovernable at best. We can just
             | hope to hold a clear intention (meditation practice in a
             | nutshell) and return to the task whenever internal or
             | external interruptions arise. Perhaps more and more parts
             | of the mind will align with the intention. Hopefully the
             | mind gets unified over time and as a result flow states can
             | be experienced.
             | 
             | The person whose comment you're replying to was probably
             | highlighting the fact that this process is not as
             | predictable as the parent comment alluded to.
        
             | justinpombrio wrote:
             | Oh that's not what I'm saying at all.
             | 
             | I was recently at a meditation retreat, and a group of
             | meditators much more advanced than me universally agreed
             | that an apt description of their minds was "like a box of
             | ferrets".
             | 
             | The illusion that you _control_ your chain of thought
             | vanishes pretty quickly with meditation. The reality is
             | that your attention shifts rapidly (especially between
             | different senses) and that most of those shifts aren 't
             | under direct conscious control.
        
           | makmanalp wrote:
           | Agreed fully.
           | 
           | I'll admit I also had a chuckle at the expense of the parent
           | post here (I'm sorry - the rest of this post isn't meant to
           | pick on you or describe you specifically). I think this there
           | is a lesson in here somewhere on the intellectual confidence
           | that comes with being good at one thing, and the silliness
           | that can ensue when it might not translate elsewhere. Not in
           | even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way, but in a "it
           | can catch you even when you think you're accounting for it"
           | kind of way.
           | 
           | If not empathy for the sake of moral reasons or even good
           | vibes, I wish that we could at least convince the "I read the
           | abstract of 3 papers / I read a gwern post about this / I
           | accomplished something hard in my life so I know everything"
           | crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for exploring your
           | "unknown unknowns". You'd think that more people would be
           | interested in a dialectic (in the classical philosophy sense)
           | discussion as a cooperative if conflicting search for truth.
           | This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate
           | yourself and underestimate others. Of course as I write this
           | I'm thinking of all the times I didn't practice what I'm
           | preaching now.
        
             | zmgsabst wrote:
             | > "I accomplished something hard in my life so I know
             | everything" crowd of the utility of empathy as a tool for
             | exploring your "unknown unknowns".
             | 
             | Do you believe you've demonstrated "the utility of empathy"
             | in your post? -- or even your interpretation of what was
             | said?
             | 
             | - - -
             | 
             | > Of course as I write this I'm thinking of all the times I
             | didn't practice what I'm preaching now.
             | 
             | > Not in even necessarily in a malicious or foolish way,
             | but in a "it can catch you even when you think you're
             | accounting for it" kind of way.
             | 
             | > This is harder to do if you systematically overestimate
             | yourself and underestimate others.
             | 
             | Mm.
        
               | kbenson wrote:
               | I'm not sure if you're expressing what you think you are.
               | They outlined a group by nature of the problem (so the
               | people in question have something to improve,
               | tautalogically), so it's not like they are painting with
               | an overly broad brush, unless you think people that
               | accomplished something hard and then automatically assume
               | they have faculty in all topics is not a group in need of
               | examining their assumptions more closely?
        
               | jstanley wrote:
               | The post is pretty close to being guilty of the very
               | problem it is pointing out.
        
               | kbenson wrote:
               | I don't think it is, which is my point. It's essentially
               | saying "I wish people with BEHAVIOR PROBLEM would do
               | THING THAT MAY HELP MITIGATE PROBLEM." There is no
               | statement of the size of that group, or how many people
               | exhibit that problem. Unless you don't think the behavior
               | being talked about is a problem (which is different than
               | thinking not many people have this problem), then I'm not
               | sure how having empathy towards them factors in. Is
               | wishing they had more perspective and could avoid a
               | cognitive pitfall not empathy?
        
               | JohnMakin wrote:
               | struck a little too close to home, eh?
        
               | makmanalp wrote:
               | My contention is that I make a good faith effort to be
               | open to the idea that others know or have experienced
               | things or might have some thoughts that I haven't
               | considered adequately. And that I think this concept
               | would be helpful to others here. That's all, no more, no
               | less.
               | 
               | It isn't that I'm perfect, or infallible, or even immune
               | to frustration and the occasional bout of snark. It
               | doesn't mean that I'm a "better" person. It also doesn't
               | mean that I have to accept every viewpoint as true or
               | equally likely. Nor does it mean that I can't criticize.
               | Nor that I can't take a side on a considered opinion. It
               | doesn't mean that this always leads to perfect results or
               | that I'm always successful. It doesn't mean that it's a
               | perfect heuristic. It's only one more tool in a toolbox.
               | 
               | I think it is undervalued - and sometimes angrily pushed
               | back against - in this community, maybe because it gets
               | dismissed as "feelings" (and not "reason"). The reason I
               | think this is that I've encountered here the "experienced
               | expert with healthy self doubt versus passionate amateur
               | with little self awareness" dynamic in action over and
               | over again.
               | 
               | There's an ongoing, half century current in the field
               | trying to examine whether reasoning may often involve a
               | heuristic-based, adaptive process based on incomplete and
               | imperfect information, and less so something resembling a
               | pure application of formal logic.
               | 
               | In this universe, cognitive biases extend more clearly to
               | things like which facts you consider as possible at all
               | in the first place and by which methods you weight them
               | as more or less likely or influential, as opposed to
               | merely fallacies of formal logic that we're most often
               | exposed to. So, the thinking goes, it can help to try to
               | fill some gaps in this area by trying to increase the
               | breadth of what you're exposing yourself to and allowing
               | yourself to take into account.
               | 
               | In my experience this can be a frustrating and exhausting
               | concept to contend with as a person. You certainly can tu
               | quoque yourself - or me, like you and others in this
               | thread have - into oblivion. After all, what business do
               | I have talking about cognitive biases if I've been shown
               | to be subject the very same, and am not an expert in it?
               | I don't know where the line is but I'm not certain it
               | makes the concept less helpful outright. At the very
               | least I don't think I'm claiming something that'd be
               | considered very controversial as far as I'm aware.
        
           | jajko wrote:
           | Just stop being sad. Just focus. Just be a good balanced
           | human being.
           | 
           | When I was a child, world and humans in it were so simple.
           | Good old times, at least relatively speaking.
        
           | hgomersall wrote:
           | From the article, a fair few internal interruptions are
           | procedural, things like writing a commit message. I took a
           | big point as being that you should design your work processes
           | to help maintain flow.
        
           | VS1999 wrote:
           | Obviously it's easier than dealing with external
           | interruptions. I don't suppose you do your hippie calming
           | exercises while bob from accounting tries to get information
           | from you for the 5th time this hour.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | I spent a long time thinking about why I always end up being
         | the guy that people feel comfortable interrupting. I'm never
         | the nicest guy in the office, I'm not always the cleverest,
         | especially when I'm trying to do something else. But I do seem
         | to recover better from external distractions than most people.
         | 
         | Mostly because my life is a constant struggle against internal
         | distractions, so my coping mechanisms are more evolved.
        
         | tonyarkles wrote:
         | > I think this point is a bit obscured by the article's use of
         | this "fragmented thinking" terminology, which does not do a
         | good job of defining before building an argument on top of it.
         | 
         | I totally agree with you that the article didn't explicitly
         | define it, but I had the opposite experience reading it. For
         | me, sans definition, could very quickly imagine what they were
         | talking about because it started resonating for me almost
         | immediately.
         | 
         | > The frustrating thing about external interruptions is the
         | inability to control them. Things like turning off
         | notifications and putting on headphones are mechanisms to
         | reduce that frustration by imposing control over those
         | interruptions.
         | 
         | This is partly _why_ it started resonating for me right away. I
         | currently share a semi-private office with another senior
         | engineer. Lately he 's been spending a good chunk of his time
         | working on higher-level systems planning work and I've been
         | spending most of my time working on very specific complex low-
         | level work. The questions are sometimes frustrating because
         | they'll interrupt my flow state, but... only sometimes. I've
         | been chewing on that for a couple of weeks now, actually,
         | because I hadn't yet figured out _why_ he could sometimes ask
         | me questions and it would have almost zero effect on me while
         | other times it would have a massive negative effect.
         | 
         | The article nailed it, on reflection: the effect size of being
         | interrupted with a question, for me, is proportional to how far
         | away from the problem I'm working on is. If I'm digging into
         | some of the autopilot code and get asked a question about GPS
         | or IMUs, it is absolutely no problem to think about the
         | question and answer it. If, though, it's a question about, say,
         | a battery or the charging system, I'll get the "black cloud
         | evaporating" phenomenon from the comic in the article. And it
         | happens so quickly that by time I can even just answer "sorry,
         | I don't have brain capacity to think about that right now" it's
         | too late.
        
         | aantix wrote:
         | I use Cold Turkey to block my habbit of scrolling time-wasting
         | sites when I should be reflecting harder on what it is needed
         | to solve the issue at hand.
         | 
         | https://getcoldturkey.com/
         | 
         | It's almost like I need some mental space, to meditate on the
         | solution, but that feels exhausting, so I choose sometimes to
         | mindlessly scroll.
         | 
         | Any other tools that I may be missing?
        
           | hackerlight wrote:
           | An alternative is to add URLs to /etc/hosts like this to
           | block them:
           | 
           | 127.0.0.1 tiktok.com
           | 
           | 127.0.0.1 www.tiktok.com
           | 
           | Then use ublock origin extension to pare down features on
           | sites you still visit, and an RSS reader app to slow down
           | media consumption.
        
       | heisenbit wrote:
       | Let's face it: Interruptions happen and what is worse I'm not
       | immune interrupting others. While we can and should strive to
       | influence the environment to provide and protect flow state we
       | also need imho. care about something else: Recovering flow state.
       | Having notes laying out key milestones beforehand and capturing
       | intermediate results at least for me make a big difference.
        
         | parpfish wrote:
         | it's unfortunate that the times when you _need_ the flow state
         | to focus on an urgent problem are also the times when you'll
         | get hit with a deluge of distractions (from automated
         | notifications and panicking managers that don't know what to do
         | other than asking "is this fixed yet?")
        
           | RealityVoid wrote:
           | Nah, it's simpler for me when I have an _urgent_ problem. I
           | then _know_ what I focus on and prioritize to fix that
           | problem. I basically... rudely ignore anything and anyone
           | else. When the priorities are not as clear is when I feel
           | like wading through mud.
        
       | samatman wrote:
       | The example of writing a commit message breaking flow state is an
       | interesting one, which ties flow to a related word: fluency.
       | 
       | For the first year or two of using git, I treated it as an undo
       | buffer, with a nice bonus that I could try things out on distinct
       | branches. Commit messages were frequently pro forma, because I
       | wasn't thinking in terms of units of change.
       | 
       | There are still projects I approach this way, "latest firmware"
       | is all I really need if I'm changing things around on my keyboard
       | firmware, for instance.
       | 
       | But with a bit of mentoring several years ago, at a job with
       | expectations for how git should be used, I've come to think of
       | changes to a codebase in terms of a commit. I'm not just writing
       | software, I'm writing a commit on a specific branch.
       | 
       | So writing a commit message doesn't take me out of my flow,
       | because it's part of it: that's what the work was flowing
       | towards. I don't let git drive the work, so there are definitely
       | commits of the form "add $specific-thing\nAlso (minor
       | bugfix/change)", but every time I'm working on a complex project,
       | it's toward a specific commit-sized goal.
       | 
       | I'd love a revision system (probably based on pijul) which
       | created a patch every time I save, which I do every minute or so.
       | With a tool which removed patch lines which never show up in the
       | final diff, and displayed the total change in a way which makes
       | it easy to pick those unrelated changes off into their own patch,
       | so I could break the commit into logical pieces. I wouldn't need
       | it often, but when I'm working on something specific, and I see
       | something else which is wrong, or just easy to change, it _would_
       | take me out of flow to, idk, write it on a Post-it and do it
       | after the commit is fixed. But commits with unrelated work in
       | them create a sense of creative disorder, one which I would
       | happily take a minute to resolve if the tool made it easy.
        
         | vladxyz wrote:
         | That's pretty much how I use git. My text editor auto saves, I
         | work on a task, doing refactors, or throw away wishful code
         | along the way. When I feel like I'm at a good point for a
         | commit, I repeatedly use `git status`, `git diff`, and `git add
         | -p` to split the sum of changes into a reasonable set of
         | commits. A commit does not need to be all-or-nothing.
        
       | j33zusjuice wrote:
       | This nonsense of quoting the "profound thought" you're about to
       | read in the next paragraph is the most annoying stylistic choice
       | to emerge from the internet. I didn't finish the article because
       | of its overuse.
        
         | tome wrote:
         | I saw two uses. Is that right?
         | 
         | > Now, "flow state" has all sorts of associations ...
         | 
         | and
         | 
         | > Before I started writing this article ...
        
         | marcosdumay wrote:
         | It emerged from printed news. It's more than a century old.
        
       | kstenerud wrote:
       | Sorry, but this just sounds like a bunch of hogwash.
       | 
       | Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary evidence. You see a
       | lot of references to studies, but take a moment to actually
       | follow the links and see what the studies say. Then come back and
       | look at his many conjectures.
       | 
       | The reason why "internal interruptions" occur is because you get
       | tired and your mind wanders. That is your cue to TAKE A DAMN
       | BREAK! We're not machines. Trying to optimize your "flow state"
       | is a fool's errand. Just keep a healthy, distraction-free work
       | environment and work with what your body allows.
       | 
       | And it's not the scheduled interruptions such as meetings and
       | such that destroy flow; it's the unscheduled interruptions. So if
       | you don't want to be prematurely pulled out of your flow, make
       | sure you keep your schedule in your mind, and do whatever you can
       | to ensure that nobody interrupts you on a whim.
       | 
       | And if someone does, it's not the end of the world. Rebuilding
       | the state in your mind is a LOT easier the second time than the
       | first! If it happens too often, bring it up with the boss.
       | 
       | Also: Flow is not necessary or even desirable at all times. Many
       | times you just want to be out for a walk while your fabulous
       | brain rekejiggers things in the background. Or just walk away
       | from it so that you can come back and look at it from a different
       | perspective! Or have a chat with concerned persons to make sure
       | the design makes sense. Flow isn't the answer to everything (or
       | even most things).
       | 
       | Flow is not something to optimize or life hack. My advice after
       | 30 years in the industry is: Just do your job adequately. No one
       | at your funeral is going to eulogize your work performance.
        
         | hobs wrote:
         | It's rare, but I have done it twice. The thing is it doesn't
         | matter if I say nice things at your funeral, you're dead, work
         | less.
        
         | ec109685 wrote:
         | This seems overly harsh. Poor development environments,
         | documentation that takes too long to find anything, annoying
         | code practices, etc. are all ways to snap yourself out of of
         | flow.
         | 
         | The point of the article is that you should examine what keeps
         | you in flow and what knocks you out, and optimize for the
         | former.
        
         | permo-w wrote:
         | is this really an extraordinary claim, though?
        
         | robocat wrote:
         | > My advice after 30 years in the industry is: Just do your job
         | adequately. No one at your funeral is going to eulogize your
         | work performance.
         | 
         | Maybe nobody cares about your work, but there is one person
         | that should care: you.
         | 
         | You are already devoting your time to work, so why not make
         | sure that you get some satisfaction from it. A massive pay
         | increase for something that your bosses can't take from you.
         | 
         | Watch any good tradie or professional, and discover what pride
         | they get beyond the dollars paid to fix your tap or wipe your
         | arse.
         | 
         | I look back on work I have done with pride. There is no-one
         | with enough knowledge (only me) to judge the qaulity of my past
         | work (especially because much of it was not part of a
         | development team). Like most work done by most people, the work
         | I have done in the past is now worthless e.g. superceded by
         | other systems. I haven't built monuments. Only I can judge the
         | work I have done.
        
       | Teleoflexuous wrote:
       | Author mentions, but doesn't focus on, 'work being too
       | challenging/not challenging enough'. I wrote a fair bit about it
       | here (with a slightly different focus as name suggests, but I go
       | over original research first)
       | https://incentiveassemblage.substack.com/p/why-is-nobody-ser....
       | I'm not sure _why_ 'challenge level' is less focused on compared
       | to lack of interruptions - both seem about equally demanding to
       | environment including manages and take similar amount of work to
       | adjust.
       | 
       | Either way, to save you a click, Csikszenthmihalyi research
       | wasn't mainly about cognitive load, because we already had a fair
       | bit of research on cognitive load. It seems insufficient
       | (although I do have my reservations), but addition of complexity
       | of the task and w/e additional issues are happening is pretty
       | solid predictor* of performance. Challenge/skill 'graph'
       | presented can be reinterpreted with challenge/skill on X axis and
       | a parallel flat line above it. Even better, and empirically
       | supported, graph can be seen in first image in the post I linked,
       | but it is a bit much to paint with words.
       | 
       | Flow research is cool, but there are more simple and actionable
       | tools.
       | 
       | *Observant reader may notice that this is because of lack of
       | units, but we do have physiological indicators if one desires to
       | monitor them.
        
         | em-bee wrote:
         | you bring up a good point. when work is very challenging then i
         | get exhausted and need to take a break. however, i don't see
         | that as a threat to the flow state because i see no point in
         | trying to keep the flow at that point. i need a break anyways.
         | so i don't see it as an interruption but more like having
         | reached my limits. i have been wracking my brain over this
         | piece of code and i don't understand whats wrong. then it's
         | time to take a step back, take a break, do something else and
         | look at the problem again with a fresh mind tomorrow.
        
       | godelski wrote:
       | I think it's a bit much to generalize this. I imagine it's
       | different for each person and there's nuances.
       | 
       | But with respect to working, I like to have an office with a
       | door. The reason is I can mute slack and notifications and close
       | the door when I'm in deep thought. The thing is that a physical
       | door tends to do a good job at making people think more before
       | interrupting. But doors are increasingly uncommon. WFH also is an
       | alternative. I do like being in the office more but I'd rather
       | WFH than be an an open noisy environment where there's constantly
       | people walking through my pereferial and will talk behind me when
       | I have my headphones on so I don't know if they're trying to talk
       | to me or someone else. At least at home I can turn up the music
       | and the main interruption is my cat doing something silly which
       | makes me laugh and isn't that distracting.
        
         | hgomersall wrote:
         | Pink noise with noise cancelling headphones. I often find
         | myself emerging from a zombie like state wondering what has
         | gone on around me for the last 2 hours. I actually don't use it
         | enough because I find it too all enveloping.
        
       | jdblair wrote:
       | this headline should be posted at the top of hacker news.
        
       | Too wrote:
       | " _54% of developers find that "Waiting on answers to questions
       | often causes interruptions and disrupts my workflow."_ "
       | 
       | Isn't this ironic? We are not allowed interrupt for questions,
       | yet we find that the delay of waiting causes other interruptions.
       | 
       | Designing systems and documentation to avoid question thus
       | becomes a double win-win.
        
       | hakanderyal wrote:
       | This article perfectly describes what I usually go through when
       | working. Well written. My most productive days are when I'm in
       | the flow for 5-10 straight hours. Which only happens if I prepare
       | both internal and external conditions to my satisfaction.
       | 
       | Then, after reading the comments in here reminded me there is a
       | lot of nuance to how one does software development. There are
       | wildly different ways to achieve the same end result.
        
       | iamleppert wrote:
       | This article itself was written by someone with fragmented
       | thinking. It feels like it was written by AI or just a stream of
       | consciousness. Way too long, could have been a few paragraphs to
       | basically make the points, that aren't backed up by any sort of
       | evidence.
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | This was an excellent article.
       | 
       | However, I would add one practice to the things we can do, to
       | reduce fragmented thinking. It's probably the oldest trick in the
       | book; thousands of years old.
       | 
       |  _Create structured habits._
       | 
       | This is what musicians do, when they practice scales, endlessly,
       | or artists do, when they are constantly doodling (I have done
       | both).
       | 
       | When something becomes habit, we no longer think about it. It
       | becomes "muscle memory."
       | 
       | There's a bunch of habits that I employ in my own work, and I
       | feel that they pay off. To go into more detail would take more
       | work than I feel like doing, now (I really need to get back to
       | writing, but have gotten out of practice).
       | 
       |  _" We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an
       | act, but a habit."_
       | 
       | - Mis-attributed to Aristotle
        
       | qprofyeh wrote:
       | I find that flow state is sometimes mind numbing. Taking a shower
       | gives me more creative ideas.
       | 
       | But visualizing any system or only a partial system on paper,
       | makes a huge difference. Added bonus, pen and paper cannot be
       | interrupted.
       | 
       | Need to learn Mermaid one day.
        
       | Footnote7341 wrote:
       | Does anyone ever feel like they can enter too much of a flow
       | state where you can solve a programming problem or an equation
       | and not even consciously know what you just did and how it works
        
       | calmworm wrote:
       | "63% of developers report that searching for answers and
       | solutions takes at least 30 minutes per day."
       | 
       | I find this funny because I imagine the question was just "do you
       | spend at least 30 minutes per day searching for answers..." which
       | makes it seem like a lot less time is used than what is actually
       | being used searching for solutions.
       | 
       | Searching for answers is, in itself, a state of flow at times.
        
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