[HN Gopher] What I remember about Flint water crisis was how sta...
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What I remember about Flint water crisis was how state government
lied
Author : rmason
Score : 65 points
Date : 2024-04-26 19:53 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.freep.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.freep.com)
| rmason wrote:
| Flint was one of the two largest crisis in state government in my
| life time. I knew Rick Snyder when he was a VC. He headed Gateway
| Computer during its glory days. I was very impressed with the
| guy. He ran for governor and was mocked because he wasn't a
| politician and used his own money. He even ran a Super Bowl ad
| which hadn't been done before or since.
|
| What he did in appointing an emergency manager in Detroit who
| shepherded it through bankruptcy was simply nothing short of
| amazing. But two other emergency managers in Flint and Benton
| Harbor were complete and utter disasters. He led a lot of reforms
| that only an outsider could accomplish but he will be remembered
| solely for the abominable disaster in Flint.
| itsanaccount wrote:
| Rick Snyder was a venture capitalist?
|
| Then what you're saying makes perfect sense. In government he
| cast a bunch of bets, most were disasters and one worked out
| well.
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> Flint was one of the two largest crisis in state government
| in my life time.
|
| If the Flint water crisis is one of the largest in state
| government, state governments are doing an exceedingly good
| job:
|
| "Even at the height of the crisis, testing in children showed
| blood lead levels that were essentially the same as the
| Michigan average and far lower than Detroit, which had a safe
| water supply the entire time. During the whole of the crisis
| (which encompassed 18 months in 2014-15), the number of Flint
| children with elevated lead levels was 3.9%. In Detroit it was
| 8.1%."
|
| -- https://jabberwocking.com/the-tragedy-of-flint-is-not-
| what-m...
| rawgabbit wrote:
| I regard Flint water crisis as a cautionary tale against the
| mentality of "Move Fast Break Things". My understanding is that
| before the switch to a different water source, the city's lead
| pipes had a thick layer of minerals deposited over the years. The
| mineral lining shielded the citizens from the lead in the pipes.
| When the water source was switched to river water, the mineral
| lining was corroded and led to the crisis.
| kurthr wrote:
| It seems much more intentional than that.
|
| https://www.bridgemi.com/truth-squad-companion/years-missed-...
| "Two days before former state Treasurer Andy Dillon formally
| recommended moving Flint off Detroit water, a Michigan
| Department of Environmental Quality drinking water
| safety regulator warned that using the Flint River would pose
| increased public health risk"
| HPsquared wrote:
| Sounds like mistrust of experts was a factor.
| mistermann wrote:
| Also the incompetence (on an absolute scale) of _relative_
| experts, if all the people involved are even that.
| peteradio wrote:
| That would be a redline for me, if a critical safety decision
| gets axed by a bean counter I bounce.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| That's basically the story of Boeing (Boing?).
| peteradio wrote:
| Did people routinely resign in protest at Boeing? I guess
| part of it would have to include shouting from the
| rooftops which I've only done to the extent of griping to
| family, (I'm not well off enough to kick my former
| employers in the nads). Truly astounding requests/denials
| trickle down from the bean counters, and against all
| reasoning gets pushed through often to the net negative
| of all. But we must push on lest we be seen to be the
| worst of all people _backtrackers_.
| sharemywin wrote:
| I'm not sure that could have been voided. you would have had to
| wait years probably to for the corrosion to happen.
| jandrese wrote:
| The worst part is how avoidable it was. The chemical additive
| to prevent the problem was so cheap it would barely appear on
| the budget, and yet it was removed "for cost reasons". It's not
| hard to think that the whole crisis was manufactured for some
| inscrutable reason.
| jMyles wrote:
| ...another obvious lesson is that acidic water - even mildly
| acidic - has unintended consequences which vary dramatically
| depending on the infrastructure being used to deliver it.
|
| The need to protect sources of water with more alkalinity is a
| largely ignored lesson of this crisis.
|
| (but of course if you try to do any research on water ph you
| run headlong into the crackpot crowd trying to shill alkaline
| water machines)
| acuozzo wrote:
| I remember Flint every time I see a Reddit crusader make the
| claim that bottled water is no better than water from the tap.
| alkonaut wrote:
| If you have competent government bottled water shouldn't be
| better than tap. I prefer tap because I find bottled tastes too
| little.
| acuozzo wrote:
| How could anyone know if their state government is competent?
|
| What if it's mostly competent, but the agency in charge of
| the water supply is the bad apple that spoils the whole
| bunch?
| margalabargala wrote:
| How could anyone know if the for-profit corporation selling
| them water is competent?
|
| If a bottled water company decided they could save a tiny
| amount switching to a plastic type that was legal but might
| give you cancer in 10 years, do you trust them not to do
| that?
|
| Anyone making that decision is thinking short term. By the
| time the harm becomes public they've enriched themselves
| and left.
|
| Government is less likely to knowingly poison you, and is
| probably about equally likely to unknowingly poison you.
| acuozzo wrote:
| Is anyone involved in the Flint, MI crisis in prison
| right now?
|
| Private companies are not immune from consequences.
|
| I agree that it's still possible to be poisoned by
| bottled water, but there are a greater number of
| incentives in place to lessen the likelihood of it
| happening.
| yongjik wrote:
| The problem is that it's the job of the government to
| ensure that private companies meet their consequences.
|
| So, if you cannot trust government, you cannot trust
| private companies to not poison you either. I guess it's
| possible to have governments break down just enough to
| screw up the local water supply while not quite rolling
| in the bed with multinational companies yet, but I doubt
| such an arrangement would be stable for long.
| acuozzo wrote:
| There are free market consequences as well though. People
| at large very easily get spooked by a brand when numerous
| alternatives are available.
| orf wrote:
| Of course! The free market consequences of people
| switching en-masse to another _brand_ owned by the same
| conglomerate :)
| yongjik wrote:
| Market consequences for something like drinking water is
| such a wild concept. Forget lead, imagine how many can
| get dysentery before the bottled water business stops
| blaming random local Chinese restaurants the consumer
| went to the day before.
| alkonaut wrote:
| > How could anyone know if their state government is
| competent?
|
| One way of knowing would be that you can see trustworthy
| water testing. That there are consequences (political,
| legal) for public officials when there is wrongdoing. That
| society seems to function.
|
| How would you know a company bottling water isn't
| incompetent?
| int_19h wrote:
| If you're concerned about this kind of thing, the only
| rational way to go about it is to test your water regularly
| (whether you drink from the tap or buy it bottled).
| Everything else is basically putting your trust in a bunch
| of random people whom you don't really know.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| With competent government, many big problems would disappear!
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > If you have competent government
|
| That's the biggest "if" I've ever seen.
| Clubber wrote:
| Bottled water is no better than water from the tap*.
|
| *Except in Flynt.
|
| Bottled water also has around a 1600x markup.
| acuozzo wrote:
| Flint, MI is hardly the only case of this happening in the
| 21st century.
| Clubber wrote:
| Aware
| vundercind wrote:
| Never lived somewhere with tap water you can _smell_ , I
| guess?
| biotinker wrote:
| It really depends where you are. Every municipality has
| different water.
|
| If you're downstream of a bunch of 19th-century dye factory
| locations, you may be better off with bottled water.
|
| If your tap water is of high quality, bottled water is likely
| worse due to microplastics from the bottle.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Chicago had awesome tasting tap water when I lived there.
|
| It was like drinking straight from the lake in the spring.*
|
| *may not be wise
| itsanaccount wrote:
| As someone within the Chicago sphere who now lives on an
| artisean perched aquifer well, I'm guessing you can't taste
| chlorine.
|
| (Jokes aside yes Chicago water is phenomenal and Geneva, IL
| is even better. Take a tour some day or try out the local
| brewerys that use that water.
| https://www.geneva.il.us/516/Water-Treatment-Plant)
| bayindirh wrote:
| When you run spring water through reverse osmosis and "add
| minerals for taste", this is true.
|
| When you bottle spring water as it comes out of the spring, now
| that's very different.
| david422 wrote:
| Is that because we assume that bottled water has more rigorous
| testing or ... ? Because seems like a failure at the top could
| cause just the same issues.
| whaleofatw2022 wrote:
| Ironically, if nothing else, private bottled water would not
| be covered by state immunity.
| CivBase wrote:
| To be fair, most of the time they're correct - at least as far
| as US tap water goes. Events like this are remembered because
| they are remarkable, not because they are normal.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| There's more checks in place to assure that your government
| water is handled appropriately. A corporation will sell you
| anything and then declare bankruptcy to let the owners profit
| off the fraud.
|
| A government can inefficiently check over and over again that
| the supply it is providing is pure. A corporation is only
| beholding to its shareholders, where inefficiency is always a
| negative, regardless of its positive externalities.
| cptskippy wrote:
| The water authority in every county I have ever lived publish
| annual water reports with extensive information about water
| sources, quality, and composition results.
|
| Do companies like Coke and Pepsi do that?
| EarthAmbassador wrote:
| It is remarkable to me how officials are able to commit these
| harms without suffering any repercussions. Of course, immunity
| provides cover for so-called official acts, however, when harm is
| so blatant, it's rather astounding there are no carve outs in the
| law so that officials can be prosecuted. I'm not an attorney so I
| can't suggest a strategy for holding them accountable, but this
| is a great time for an activist/crusader lawyer to go after
| wrongdoers and set a precedent.
| sharemywin wrote:
| I imagine some kind of forgery or fraud must of happened I
| can't believe that's coved by the law. (but it could be)
| candiodari wrote:
| It's remarkable how government is able to commit these harms
| without suffering repercussions. Normally the law covers
| damages. Well, the water disaster in flint caused billions in
| damages. The state government should be broke from the damages.
|
| I don't much care what happens to individuals. First concern is
| the victims. But the victims were cared for somewhat, but
| nowhere near the point where they'd not suffer damage.
|
| Instead, the law was modified to minimize what the government
| paid ...
| mfer wrote:
| I followed this closely as I live close to Flint. The handling
| of Flint in the aftermath was an example of partisan politics
| that went horribly wrong. For example, the state supreme court,
| which leans left/democrat, ruled that the attorney general
| office (democrat led) was doing illegal things in the
| prosecution of the state officials from the time of the
| incident (who were right/republican). It was quite a mess from
| numerous angles. The people targeted for prosecution were state
| level employees (republicans/right) while the people close to
| the water systems operations (democrat/left) were never really
| looked at by prosecution that leans democrat/left.
|
| As a local person following the situation, it was hard to tell
| what was really going on and where opinion pieces (like this
| and many of the linked articles) were pointing. I suspect
| people screwed up at all levels and want to just defer blame to
| the other political party.
| rr808 wrote:
| Looking forward to putting every Meta employee in jail. No one
| died in Flint. Lots of people killed themselves after using
| Meta products.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| At least 12 people died from an outbreak of legionnaires
| disease directly caused by the water conditions in Flint in
| 2014.
| aurizon wrote:
| That is why they are called 'Civil Serpents'
| bloomingeek wrote:
| It boggles the mind to think that your own local government would
| betray you in the stupidest fashion imaginable. All
| counties/states have scientific teams, or the ability to hire
| them, to help elected official make decisions that are this
| important.
| sk11001 wrote:
| Obama pretending to drink from a glass of water by barely
| touching it to his lips and saying "this is not a stunt" is
| easily his lowest point as president.
| TheGamerUncle wrote:
| I would think that approving civilian weddings to be drone is
| far worsebut both those things are far far from his worst (not
| counting what wikileaks expose) actions
| blaufuchs wrote:
| I'm curious, what's wrong with a civil* wedding?
| resters wrote:
| Flint is not the only one. Parts of Chicago have very low quality
| tap water, as do other cities.
|
| In my view, the problem is that we have no chance of upgrading
| any infrastructure in the US ever. Consider that most tax dollars
| go to the Federal government and go to wars and entitlements.
|
| The small bit of tax dollars left for local governments, the ones
| who would need to undertake infrastructure renewal projects
| locally, is simply nowhere near enough to fix the problem.
|
| The same problem exists in many domains. Roads covered in
| potholes, power grid unsuitable for installing superchargers,
| last mile broadband owned by monopoly players with no incentive
| to improve upon it, long lines at government offices and months
| of wait time for things as simple as building permits, property
| values decimated by failing school systems, and polluting
| industries grandfathered in and allowed to pollute in
| unconscionable ways.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Doesn't the fed subside or pay for a huge portion of
| infrastructure: highways, ports, waterways, even some bridges?
| phkahler wrote:
| >> entitlements
|
| I really hate that word. People apply it in a derogatory way to
| social security, which is funded through a separate tax, and
| has its own pile of money. The only way it really affects the
| federal budget is when they borrow from that fund or have to
| pay back into it.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I'm going to start collecting these examples of government
| dishonesty and untrustworthiness. These days we have so many
| people crusading against so called "fake news", as determined by
| the so called "authorities". The mere existence of these crises
| is the perfect argument.
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