[HN Gopher] AI programming tools should be added to the Joel Test
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       AI programming tools should be added to the Joel Test
        
       Author : jtwaleson
       Score  : 13 points
       Date   : 2024-04-22 08:55 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.waleson.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.waleson.com)
        
       | eternityforest wrote:
       | Trying Codeium was like the difference between notepad and an
       | IDE.
       | 
       | Unfortunately, it overheats my laptop so I can't actually use it,
       | and I primarily do support, I don't program enough at my job to
       | justify paying for copilot.
       | 
       | If the CPU use was lower, I don't see why I'd ever go without.
        
         | weikju wrote:
         | I haven't used Codeium in a while, but I remember at some point
         | in VSCodium it would also spike CPU usage until I turned off
         | some features (was it Chat, or Search? something like that).
        
       | xiwenc wrote:
       | > Note that this is often not the same as "#9 - Do you use the
       | best tools money can buy?" as blocking AI tools is about data
       | security, not money.
       | 
       | I do think AI fits #9. The fact that current AI tools are not
       | meeting data security requirements are due to the market demands
       | and maturity:
       | 
       | - price needs to be low to attract adopters.
       | 
       | - low price? These service providers will hoard data
       | 
       | - data needs to be collected for training
       | 
       | So i think long term, there will be more premium AI tools that
       | "promise" to not collect your data. Perhaps self-hosted? Self
       | hosting with AI is not attractive, at least not for consumers or
       | small businesses.
        
         | jtwaleson wrote:
         | Self-hosted is becoming more and more possible. For the first
         | time in forever I think it makes sense to buy a beefy personal
         | computer.
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | OpenAI have paid plans that promise not to collect your data
         | already. I think Anthropic do as well.
         | 
         | People seem not to trust companies which make these promises,
         | which is unfortunate for the industry.
        
       | anothernewdude wrote:
       | I agree, but they should count negatively.
        
       | jasonpeacock wrote:
       | > There's plenty of things wrong with these tools: they are often
       | wrong, are slow and the GPT4 ones are really expensive.
       | 
       | So...why should they be included?
       | 
       | I really worry about this "often wrong" part - you only know they
       | are wrong if you already know what you're doing. Otherwise you
       | end up trying to use hallucinated APIs & libraries, or produce
       | code not better than copy & pasting StackOverflow answers (which
       | is what the AI was trained on anyway).
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | If an LLM hallucinates a method name you'll find out the moment
         | you try and run the code.
         | 
         | Code has a built-in form of easy fact checking, which makes it
         | one of the most appropriate applications for LLMs. It's much
         | harder to spot a hallucinated fact in a paragraph of prose than
         | it is to spot a hallucinated API method.
         | 
         | The skills you most need to develop in order to take advantage
         | of LLM assisted programming are code reading, code review,
         | manual and automated testing and being really good at thinking
         | of edge-cases that might not be covered.
         | 
         | It turns out these are important skills for being a great
         | developer already - LLMs just force the issue on them a little
         | more.
        
           | lambda wrote:
           | If the LLM hallucinates a Python package, someone else might
           | notice that and sneak in a malicious version of that
           | hallucinated package.
           | 
           | Or if it hallucinates a method name, it might be in a code
           | path that goes untested. How often are people using these
           | tools to also write comprehensive test suites?
        
           | ascar wrote:
           | Due to the nature of my current work I haven't really used
           | GPT for coding yet, but isn't it easier to write code than to
           | read and truly understand it? So how much development time
           | was really saved, if I still care about off-by-one errors or
           | correct identity checks in HashMaps or all those edge cases I
           | probably should care about? Those are all things much harder
           | to spot reading than writing the code.
        
       | YetAnotherNick wrote:
       | > blocking AI tools is about data security, not money.
       | 
       | Why is AI treated very different than say cloud? Most companies
       | don't have problem with putting all data in Github or AWS or
       | Office 365, but lot of them freaks out if any AI can access the
       | data. I don't think OpenAI/copilot enterprise plan T&C/privacy
       | policy is very different than Github or AWS.
        
       | mellosouls wrote:
       | Yeah I've thought this myself for a while; GPT-4 class assistance
       | is now a standard tool for me.
       | 
       | If a prospect client or company bans it, it's a hard no from me.
       | 
       | I understand that might be too extreme a red line for some, but
       | for me, life's too short to wait for laggards to catch up with
       | the inevitable.
        
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