[HN Gopher] From a lorry driver to Ruby on rails developer at 38
___________________________________________________________________
From a lorry driver to Ruby on rails developer at 38
Author : ksec
Score : 310 points
Date : 2024-04-21 13:48 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.writesoftwarewell.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.writesoftwarewell.com)
| game_the0ry wrote:
| > I decided to join Flatiron School. If you couldn't secure a job
| after completing their course, you didn't have to pay them
| anything.
|
| This is key.
|
| I went to a boot camp as well, one of the ones that required an
| admissions interview, which was legit difficult for a newbie.
|
| The boot camp model is actually very good if implemented well. Of
| course, there is corruption and grifting, and a lot of innocent
| people regrettebly lost money.
|
| So if you are considering a boot camp, do one that is difficult
| to get into and has an income share agreement.[1]
|
| [1] Income share agreements can be sketchy too. Sometimes, if you
| get a job that is not related to tech (retail job, for example),
| they will ask you to pay back.
| macintux wrote:
| The recent discussion around BloomTech/Lambda School makes me
| very wary about income share agreements.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40067939
| citizenpaul wrote:
| > Income share agreements can be sketchy too
|
| My exp with things like this is they tend to overwhelmingly be
| highly exploitive and target vulnerable people. The biggest
| clue is that almost none of these types of places will publicly
| provide whatever the arrangement is. You usually have to jump
| through hours of hoops to even find out the details because
| they don't want the information getting out due to what I just
| wrote.
|
| On the other side its a really quick filter. Can you send me
| the details now? Not until you come to our onsite 4hr
| (brainwashing)meeting, Nope! moving on.
| ornornor wrote:
| > On the other side its a really quick filter. Can you send
| me the details now? Not until you come to our onsite 4hr
| (brainwashing)meeting, Nope! moving on.
|
| Wait until the graduates discover what interviewing is like
| in tech...
| kgf1980 wrote:
| I went the opposite way (in the UK) and moved from development
| (mainly C#) to lorry driving (everything from 12T rigids to 44T
| artics) however in my free time I'm enjoying developing (some
| RoR, some Golang) more than when I was paid to do it.
|
| Although I'm working more hours (average 50-52 hours a week
| compared to 38-40), I'm also much better compensated doing HGV
| driving than I ever was as a developer (although that may reflect
| more on my skills/level as a developer than anything else)
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I am consistently enjoying myself more when doing coding side
| projects, than anything at work. I think that's just ... sort
| of normal when your profession and your hobby are the same
| thing - when you don't have any boss except yourself.
| kgf1980 wrote:
| I think for me it's not having a time pressure - if it takes
| me 2 weeks spending 2 hours a day to implement something
| there's no issue when it's just projects for myself (I've
| basically written a PWA for tracking my pay, hours, rest time
| etc which I use every day, and implement a new feature I
| decide would be useful when it comes up, so kind of the
| ultimate dog-fooding)
| ipaddr wrote:
| I' m the opposite. I put myself under 2 week sprints at
| home. Imagine someone is working on the same idea and put
| pressure on myself to get done and release.
|
| At work I hold things an extra day or more so I have
| something easy to say at the standup. Stands ups at work
| force this slow pace because it sounds better and is easier
| for others to follow.
| Swizec wrote:
| To share an opposite anecdata: After many years of coding
| side projects and work projects, I no longer get a kick out
| of side projects. They just don't scratch the itch anymore.
| They just pale in interestingness/size/complexity compared to
| what I get to do at work and if I wanted a big enough side
| project to scratch the itch, then it would require a team to
| get done and wouldn't be a side project.
| pipes wrote:
| I've heard with lorry driving there are issues with
| vibrations causing physical harm eventually? Maybe that is
| nonsense?
|
| If you don't mind me asking how much were you earning as a
| developer and how much do you earn driving lorries?
| kgf1980 wrote:
| I've not had any issues with vibrations but I've not been
| driving perhaps long enough?
|
| That said, the newer generation of trucks are so smooth I
| don't think that's as much of an issue as it may have been
| in previous generations.
|
| Wage wise, working as a developer in the UK (working for
| small consultancies, not startups etc) my wage topped out
| at around 38k - last year driving I earnt 46k and this year
| with promotion (from rigid to articulated vehicles) and
| annual payrise, plus assuming I work a similar amount of
| hours I'm estimating 52-55k (all before tax)
| throwaway5959 wrote:
| I'll never understand why developers there make less than
| the US. It's not like they aren't providing similar
| scale/leverage to a business.
| badpun wrote:
| By some estimates, the US is home to 50% of world's
| globally reaching corporations. Software written at those
| companies has giant business implications (thanks to
| those companies' scale), and thus the devs can be better
| compensated for their work.
| 369548684892826 wrote:
| If this was the reason then UK developers working for US
| companies would be paid better
| badpun wrote:
| Not neccessarily. Companies just pay each country's
| market wages. The difference between US and UK is that
| large amount of developer positions with high return on
| investment (for the company) pushes US market wages
| upwards - all those megacorps are competing for a limited
| pool of US people, and can afford to compete on salaries.
| kshacker wrote:
| I hear it is much harder to fire in Europe. One of my
| colleagues (based is US) is trying to fire an obvious
| underperformer; and I hear only tidbits; but it is quite
| difficult. Imagine your risk of being fired decreased
| 90%, would you be willing to take a slightly smaller
| salary? Of course when you (the employee) do not trust
| the company / government, you are also willing to be more
| mercenary and jump at smallest opportunities, so
| companies in US probably have to pay a bit more to keep
| the talent.
| throwaway5959 wrote:
| No I wouldn't because I'm good at what I do (at least
| reasonably so) and I have an emergency fund. There is no
| safety net in the US for those between 18-65 for the most
| part.
| maccard wrote:
| It varies country by country. The UK is basically at-will
| for the first two years, and it becomes more difficult
| after that.
| pipes wrote:
| From knowing people who've fired people before, in the UK
| people seem to overestimate how hard it is to fire
| someone.
| imtringued wrote:
| Why would anyone give a shit about it being harder to get
| fired when it comes to salary? In what kind of distorted
| world do you live in? I will never understand how you
| guys come up with these stories. Like, why exactly do you
| need to fire the guy through the hardest way possible,
| when you could just fire them the normal way? Like,
| you're complaining that your own culture is holding you
| back, because you can't live out your power trip fantasy
| by telling the guy to put his stuff in a box while a
| security guard is forcing him out of the building in the
| most obnoxious way. That type of firing in Germany is
| reserved for people who have committed crimes on the job.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Because we don't need to set away money for medical care,
| retirement, the education of our kids and a host of other
| expenses, the government takes care of that, and our
| housing costs are far lower than in the US.
|
| Oh and we have public transport that actually works and
| walkable cities, so at least in urban areas where you
| find the techies, we don't need a big-ass gas guzzling
| SUV to get to work or to go and grab some basic
| groceries. We go to work on the subway/streetcar, and we
| walk by foot or use a bike to go and shop groceries.
|
| Americans always boast about how much they earn compared
| to us (Western) Europeans, but IME when you make them
| break down their monthly budget, it usually turns out
| that after deducting fixed costs, we are roughly the same
| in purchasing power, and we're happier on top of that as
| we don't have to fear a random hospital visit might leave
| us with a 10k$ bill.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| I feel this comment's characterizations of both the US
| and Europe are both basically wrong (or at least, they
| would require significant qualifications to be
| reasonable).
|
| I grew up in a suburb of a relatively dense Western
| European city with ~250k people. The city has buses, but
| everyone I know gets to work by car. Horrible traffic -
| 15 mile highway commutes take 45 minutes in the morning.
| When I was growing up I went to school by car. Nowadays
| when my father needs groceries he drives for 5 minutes
| (rather than walk for 15).
|
| Since moving to the US I haven't driven at all - though I
| live in New York, so it's obviously a special case. For
| healthcare, "a random hospital visit might leave us with
| a 10k$ bill" doesn't exist for tech workers - as anyone
| who's actually worked in tech in the US would know. It's
| true that the US healthcare has severe access problems
| for a large portion of the population. But those problems
| are non-existent for tech workers with employer insurance
| and bounded out-of-pocket costs.
| pipes wrote:
| House prices in the UK are awful. The health system is
| dire. The education system (in Scotland at least) is
| awful too (I know several teachers here who will tell you
| the same, and the international ratings speak for
| themselves. Tax is high, salaries for tech are way lower
| than US too. State pensions are chump change.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Worse than the physical harm caused from working at a desk?
|
| I've never driven a Lorry, but I did drive for a living,
| and also drive long distances regularly.
|
| But I find my car seat much more comfortable than my desk
| chair, and my posture much better in the car than one I can
| maintain while sitting at a desk and typing.
|
| Of course, if you're doing very long drives you may not get
| as many opportunities to stand up and stretch your legs,
| but I'd imagine lorry drivers would have this opportunity
| once every hour or so.
| jspash wrote:
| I've just returned from a 10 day trip across Europe. 5
| days to destination. 5 days there. 5 days back. I've been
| back for 2 weeks now and I think I've only just
| "recovered" from the drive. The cognitive load of the
| German autobahn. Trying to understand the road markings
| in different countries. Rain one day. Snow the next.
| Glaring sunshine the next.
|
| Now, sitting in my home office in a comfy chair with no
| vibrations, no continuous noise and no apparent imminent
| potential for death is most definitely my preferred way
| to spend 8 hours a day.
|
| Next year is going to be a stay-cation!
| rsynnott wrote:
| I mean... have you considered a _train_? :)
| vl wrote:
| If so, why not to get different chair (perhaps used car
| chair) and set it up the same way as it setup in the car?
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| The way I sit while driving is very different from typing
|
| Typing I'm not able to recline and comfortably type. It's
| possibly a different chair, desk, keyboard, and monitor
| setup could help with this but I'm self-employed right
| now and not able to shell that out for what would amount
| to experiments which I don't expect to be particularly
| fruitful.
|
| I have worked in a number of offices and with a variety
| of setups when employers were footing the bill, and have
| yet to find one that was significantly more comfortable
| than my current setup.
|
| When driving I'm in much more of a relaxed reclining
| position and just steering. Long distances I can add
| cruise control to the mix. Making minor adjustments to
| the steering wheel is completely different from the
| wrist/fingertip stress of typing, and good posture when
| working at a desk requires being more upright, which in
| my experience ends up putting more stress on my back and
| neck also.
| jdietrich wrote:
| Modern trucks (at least European-style cab-over trucks)
| have extremely soft ride quality. The truck itself has
| airbag suspension, plus an additional suspension system
| built into the seat. You do get jostled about a bit, but
| the movement is very slow and floaty. I'm not aware of any
| reports of vibration-related harm.
| jmkni wrote:
| I've come to realise that actually _coding_ is the part of
| software development I enjoy the least, and in many staff
| software engineer positions, that is basically entirely what
| you are doing
|
| Other people are doing the fun/interesting stuff, project
| managers, product owners, scrum masters, etc etc are doing
| all of the fun interesting _figuring out /thinking_, and then
| it's just your job to code it.
|
| When you work on side projects, you get to wear all of those
| other hats and it's way more rewarding
| doctor_eval wrote:
| Not really related to your points but I feel that
| separating design and implementation is a mistake; the
| people designing and implementing should be, if not the
| same people, then certainly in the same room, and in
| constant contact.
|
| So it could be that, if you're in a world where you aren't
| getting to do any of the fun figuring-out stuff, perhaps
| that's a problem with the workplace structure rather than
| with programming generally.
|
| I enjoy a bit of everything, and am apparently lucky to
| have been able to do it for a long time.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| Wild! Coding, for me, is the fun part - implementing the
| solution, once I've come up with one.
|
| I've never looked at a product owner or a scrum master and
| thought to myself, "man, those guys get to have all the
| fun." I've more often thought, "wow, they have to answer to
| three people, two of whom are assholes, who have four
| opinions on how things should be done between them."
| cudgy wrote:
| Opposite for me. Much rather code an abomination than hash
| out the abomination in meetings all day with scrum
| "masters", product "owners", and software "engineers".
| turdprincess wrote:
| Actually coding is the domain of mid level and senior
| engineers. Staff engineers architect, design technical
| strategy, collaborate across teams. A proper staff engineer
| might only see code during review or a proof of concept.
| treflop wrote:
| For me, I enjoy programming but just as a tool. I enjoy it
| like I do my table saw.
|
| But I use my table saw because I want to build certain stuff.
| Maybe a cabinet or something. You would never catch me using
| my table saw or programming "just for fun."
|
| And if I'm not enjoying what I'm building, it's not like the
| tool will somehow make it enjoyable.
| klondike_klive wrote:
| Interesting! Do you enjoy the lorry driving? I've thought about
| it but one of my concerns is having to manoeuvre around tiny
| village high streets (lived in a village where houses were
| regularly hit!) Is there much of that? Are you under a lot of
| pressure to deliver in super tight time frames? And how long
| did it take you to get your HGV licence? Cheers.
| kgf1980 wrote:
| It takes surprisingly little time to get used to the size -
| that said I'm more confident I the rigid vehicles than the
| artics in terms of tighter manoeuvring. Most of my work is
| trunking however so distribution centre to distribution
| centre, generally at most 5miles from a motorway, for
| customer deliveries I do have to take some smaller country
| roads, which are nerve-racking at first but now I'll take
| much more confidently.
|
| I enjoy being left alone with podcasts for the first 4-6hours
| of my shift and music for the rest, I tend to talk to the
| office 3 times a shift - once when I get my keys, once to
| find out what (if anything) is getting loaded for a second
| run and finally to hand my keys in - all in all 10mins
| interaction with "management" over a 10hr shift suits me
| fine.
|
| Time wise, taking my Thursday shift - I'm booked at Heathrow
| airport to deliver at 7pm, if I'm 30-45mins late there's no
| issues, but I generally leave to get there at 1840 so even if
| roads are bad I'm still "on-time" - after that I have a
| collection (anytime after 1900) which has to be at the
| customer (2hrs drive) by 0200 and I'm generally there by 2200
| - I am lucky in the company I work for leave plenty of time
| for everything including breaks, I know other places run you
| around and try to get 10hrs work done in 8.
|
| In terms of time for license, I had 4 days training for my
| rigid (anything over 7.5T with a trailer upto 750kg) with
| test on the last day which I passed first time, I then drove
| them for 6 months for my current employer and then again had
| 4 days training and test on the 5th for artics (anything over
| 7.5T with a trailer over 750kg) which I passed first time
| (thanks in part to driving rigids for 6months and being
| generally confident with the size etc of the vehicle)
| gcbirzan wrote:
| Ironically, in an industry that highly regulates working
| times...
| kgf1980 wrote:
| Yes, work is covered under both the Working Time Directive
| (which I've opted out of the night work limit and the 48hr
| working week) and the EU Drivers Hours rules - work are hot
| on infringements for exceeding working hours but more so on
| breaches of driving hours or insufficient rest hours.
| walthamstow wrote:
| Are you away from home much? Do you have a spouse and/or kids?
| kgf1980 wrote:
| I don't do nights out or away, so I'm home every night
| (morning as I work 3pm until I'm done, generally 1-2am,
| sometimes 5am)
|
| No spouse or kids which probably helps and is why I don't
| mind picking up overtime and extra shifts
| madaxe_again wrote:
| >> although that may reflect more on my skills/level as a
| developer than anything else
|
| Nah, that reflects on the U.K. - developers are generally
| miserably underpaid, and there's a massive shortage of freight
| drivers since Brexit for no apparent reason whatsoever.
| bmoxb wrote:
| > there's a massive shortage of freight drivers since Brexit
| for no apparent reason whatsoever.
|
| The main reason is that most drivers were Eastern European
| and since freedom of movement ended it has become
| significantly harder for them to come and work as freely as
| they could before. Covid is also a factor afaik.
|
| Though I otherwise agree with you that developers (or rather
| white collar careers in general with the exception of certain
| finance roles) are not particularly well paid in many
| instances in the UK.
| IntelMiner wrote:
| I believe the users comment was deeply sarcastic and they
| are in underlying agreement with your assertion
| bmoxb wrote:
| I think you're right - I'm embarassed to have not picked
| up on that.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Worth pointing out that among non-US countries, the UK has
| among the highest developer pay. This isn't the UK under-
| paying, it's the US being a massive outlier.
| User23 wrote:
| Truck drivers in the USA can easily make well into the six
| figures as owner operators. It's not gonna compete with
| FAANG (except maybe on oilfields?), but it's a very good
| living.
|
| And of course if you're good at running yourself as a
| business you have the skills to run other drivers too if
| you choose to invest in a fleet.
|
| Heck, for a while Amazon was paying people to quit and
| start trucking.
| kgf1980 wrote:
| Surpringly the shortage of drivers is not actually a thing
| anymore (during Covid perhaps) but the large number of people
| who got their HGV license when the government changed the
| rules during Covid has actually caused pay rates to
| drastically fall due to their being more drivers looking for
| work than work available.
| rsynnott wrote:
| I think that's maybe not _that_ surprising, because freight
| in _general_ in the UK is in decline. The UK Dept of
| Transport does not expect freight tonnage to rise to 2019
| levels in the foreseeable future. This is partially due to
| the decline of the land bridge (since Brexit, far more
| freight to Ireland goes by sea instead of through the UK),
| but also due to a decline in UK trade in general post-
| Brexit.
| ta1243 wrote:
| A decline in the UK in general post-Brexit, although
| brexit is more of a symptom of a larger decline.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| OP salary at 38k is pretty low.
|
| From my experience that's in line with people doing "body
| rentals" for agencies under threat of being deported or
| because they couldn't find another job.
|
| I think he could have doubled that with a bit of work on
| resume / negotiation skills.
|
| Sure, still lower than US but life in the UK is way cheaper,
| so it works out unless your earning potential is mid-high 3
| digits.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I'm not sure it's specific to body shops. Frankly some
| higher-end "body shops" (aka agencies) do actually pay
| quite well.
|
| This salary sadly seems normal for a non-tech business.
|
| > life in the UK is way cheaper
|
| Nowadays I'm not sure, especially if you actually _need_
| any of the services the government is supposed to provide
| but is no longer able to (healthcare, etc). Private
| healthcare expenses quickly adds up.
| cloudripper wrote:
| I appreciate stories like this as a reminder that it is never
| too late to make a change in your life that is right for you.
| Some folks stick to their comforts and avoid such a big life
| change out of fear - but sometimes the temporary discomfort can
| lead to greater fulfillment in the long-run.
|
| Whether your coming from or going to lorry driving - or any
| other job role, keep telling your story and maybe your path
| will be an inspiration for someone going through their own
| jaded, burn-out experience.
| datascienced wrote:
| This is what rest of the world looks like USA people!
| Developers are generally paid enough to get by but not crazy
| salaries. There are exceptions but required you to get through
| tough interviews. No $200k TC interns out here.
|
| It means picking up a trade or just doing a scrum master job or
| traffic duties become viable alternatives.
|
| Developers are caught in stagflation. Buying a property in
| Sydney metro area (within 90m commute) for example would be
| challenging for most devs.
|
| Prices have tripled and over the frame of 15y while dev
| salaries or contract rates have not increased.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| But I was promised free healthcare and more vacation time
| makes it all even!
|
| (I've always loved that narrative for its optimism. In
| reality if you have a modicum of self-restraint you can save
| more money on a US salary than most people are making on a
| European salary, and tech tends to have excellent
| healthcare.)
| niemandhier wrote:
| It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+ position
| in the US.
|
| After computing what I would have to pay for: - Piano
| lessons for the kids - child care - sports clubs - golfing
| - private tutors - rent / mortgage
|
| I concluded that my quality of life would decrease. Europe
| is crazy cheep for families. The UK is particular, brexit
| did not do them any good.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| > It does, I did the math when I was offered a 100k+
| position in the US.
|
| 100k+ has been close to the floor for entry level for a
| while now. Did you do the math on how much you'd earn
| over 10 years?
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| 100k is the floor? Where do you live? I swear most devs
| on HN have had their brains addled by inflated salaries.
| titanomachy wrote:
| It would be unusual for a new college grad at any well-
| known tech company in Seattle to make less than $150k
| right now. Large companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and
| Google dominate the market here. If you were starting a
| software company in Seattle, $100k would probably be
| enough to interest only the most inexperienced and
| unqualified candidates.
|
| New York City and San Francisco Bay Area are similar or
| higher. I don't have much experience with the rest of the
| US.
| fooker wrote:
| Not just Seattle, I am seeing tech salaries in Denver,
| SLC, Austin, etc starting from 120-30k nowadays (and
| growing VERY fast if you stick around for a few years
| because the smaller cities have trouble keeping
| experienced engineers from taking a 700k offer from some
| FAANG company.)
| Manuel_D wrote:
| Who's getting the 700K FAANG offers? I say this as
| someone who just took an offer with ~390K TC for an
| Amazon SDE III or Meta E5 equivalent at FAANG. 10 YoE.
| Aside from equity value increasing, I don't think 700K
| without factoring in rising stock prices is common,
| outside of niche in demand roles.
| fooker wrote:
| Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe)
| according to levels.fyi
|
| Seems close to what I have seen offered there.
| guessmyname wrote:
| > _Meta E5 (~4 yoe) is 520k, and E6 is 760k (~7-8 yoe)
| according to levels.fyi_
|
| It depends.
|
| https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/salaries/softwa
| re-...
|
| Taking a close look at the data provided in this page,
| beyond merely considering seniority level and years of
| experience, reveals a noteworthy trend at Facebook. Many
| individuals are being hired at level E5 (Senior) with 6-8
| years of "relevant" experience, and some even with 10 or
| more.
|
| Some candidates with fewer years of experience, such as
| the 4 years you mentioned in your comment, are joining
| Facebook with PhD or Master degrees, which significantly
| bolsters their overall qualifications.
|
| We're not talking about just any programmer with 4 years
| of experience in web design straight out of a Bootcamp.
| These individuals are typically Ivy League graduate
| students with PhDs or Masters, and approximately 4 years
| of experience at Tier-1, or at the very least, Tier-2
| companies (Fortune 500's).
|
| To illustrate, consider a recent data point submitted to
| Level/FYI on March 26th, 2024. This individual has been
| working at Facebook for 4 years and has accumulated a
| total of 10 years of work experience. Currently
| specializing in ML/AI, their total compensation amounts
| to $410,000 (comprising $230,000 in cash per year, along
| with $180,000 in RSUs per year).
| fooker wrote:
| Point taken, you cherry-picked a particular low number
| from the chart though, you could easily do it the other
| way and find a E5 making 600k at Meta.
|
| Apple pays a bit below the silicon valley average, I am
| not quite I understand sure why---they sure have the
| money. I had a conversation with an Apple recruiter a
| couple of years ago who assured me this was not the case,
| and then eventually their offer was ~25% below my
| contemporary TC.
|
| Also Canada tech salaries are quite a bit below US west
| coast levels.
| badpun wrote:
| I think Jobs once said that they're not willing to pay
| top market rates because they don't want to attract
| people strongly and primarily motivated by money.
| fooker wrote:
| That's an interesting philosophy that seems to have
| worked out for them, except maybe in the last few years
| where they have struggled to get AI talent.
| titanomachy wrote:
| 700k is deep into staff+ territory. One needs to complete
| something unusually noteworthy to cross that line, years
| of experience alone is not sufficient.
| Manuel_D wrote:
| Entry level for my job in the Bay Area was 110K salary an
| about a other 70K in RSUs. This was 2015. Granted this
| was probably above average, as it was a medium sized but
| highly regarded company.
| sethammons wrote:
| In socal, the dev interns I was managing a couple years
| ago were paid $50/hr. That is a bit over $100k/yr
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| Eh, I would have agreed maybe a decade ago, but the past
| years have seriously eroded USD buying power[1]. For
| example, for that 100k in 2014 to be equivalent in 2024,
| you would need 133k or that your adjusted for inflation
| dollars are 76K ( and that is BLS ).
|
| 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean
| real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than
| that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how
| other people manage.
|
| [1]https://data.bls.gov/cgi-
| bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=100%2C000.00&y...
| OJFord wrote:
| > 100k is the floor, because 100k used to actually mean
| real money. I no longer think it is. I earn more than
| that and I believe we are struggling. I don't know how
| other people manage.
|
| I don't think that can be anything but 'lifestyle
| inflation'? Even if that's one income, supporting spouse
| and children.
| pedrosorio wrote:
| "had their brains addled"... no need to be mean
|
| https://tomazweiss.github.io/blog/so_2023_compensation/
| lannisterstark wrote:
| >I swear most devs on HN have had their brains addled by
| inflated salaries.
|
| Are you sure it's not just a coping mechanism (I can't
| find the right word, sorry), for those who didn't get
| those salaries to say this line?
|
| Even in PHX my company offers 95k as starting base for
| junior devs.
| rustcleaner wrote:
| $100 is floor?! Here I am at $36 in Socal! I'm in the
| wrong line of work...
| vundercind wrote:
| Floor's around $70k-80k for a new grad in my 3rd-tier
| (but still a couple million population) non-coastal US
| city. A couple major tech firms you've surely heard of
| are based here, plus some other _really big_ ones you
| definitely know of if you work in the industries they
| serve. Not just offices--headquarters.
|
| The benefits will be decent, but nothing special, at a
| big place and dogshit anywhere smaller, so it's not made
| up there. You'll probably have 10 vacation days, maybe
| like 14 if they pool vacation and sick leave.
| Propelloni wrote:
| This sounds like starting up in the USA becomes less
| viable. And this begs the question why VC is still
| focused on the USA. 2-3 million dollars in seed money
| allow me to scale much faster in Europe (and much much
| faster elsewhere), if only for the fact that the same
| money I have to pay for an entry level developer in the
| USA will get me a very senior developer in Europe. Or
| two, maybe three, juniors.... what do you think?
| fooker wrote:
| Would you mind sharing your math?
|
| I had concluded the opposite if you compound over 5-ish
| years.
|
| With two tech incomes, you'll make approximately 4-5
| million in the US counting equity, versus about 1 mil
| everywhere else except maybe Zurich. US expenses over 5
| years would be about 800k-1mil excluding a home which you
| are likely going to sell for far more than you pay for.
| readyman wrote:
| Your math is based on you and your partner making
| 400k-500k/yr lol.
| fooker wrote:
| Yes, that's what we make right now on average.
|
| If you work in tech for a few years that's kind of
| average. We are having a new PhD grad join next month
| with a 400k TC offer.
|
| If you have trouble believing me, check out levels.fyi
| for (Facebook:E5, Google:L5-6, Nvidia:IC5, Apple ICT5).
| readyman wrote:
| > _Yes, that 's what we make right now on average._
|
| > _If you work in tech for a few years that 's kind of
| average._
|
| You should probably learn what "average" means if you're
| getting paid that much to develop software.
| fooker wrote:
| The first average is between two people over a few years.
|
| The second average is for similar tech jobs.
|
| But good job resorting to ad hominem.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I'll buy that 400-500k a year is average for Facebook,
| Apple, Google, etc.
|
| It's absolutely NOT average for companies who aren't the
| massive giants that those are. I've been in actual tech
| startups, not Uber for Clowns, and the best salary I've
| seen was an (admittedly very good) $170k for a senior dev
| position. That's close to average when I talk to my
| friends and associates in tech in the valley and beyond.
| fooker wrote:
| The etc in your first sentence is doing a bit of heavy
| lifting here. There are so many companies in that
| category now that if you have any specialized software
| skill (compilers, ML, database engines, OS, systems in
| general) you can absolutely make that much if you wanted
| to. If you don't believe me, and have such skills, spend
| 20-30 days interviewing!
|
| Sure if you are a typical full stack developer you are
| not going to make that much money unless you get into
| Google or something.
|
| Also, base salaries are typically not that high, but the
| total compensation with equity can reach that pretty
| easily.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I guess in the energy tech industry no one pays that
| because I've been looking, and I have pretty specialized
| skills.
| fooker wrote:
| Makes sense, it's interesting to see this discrepancy
| between fields.
|
| Could you elaborate what specialized skills though?
| ok_dad wrote:
| I write software systems to control devices in buildings
| in the context of energy savings, like hvac and charging
| cars, and also control attached distributed energy
| resources, like batteries or solar.
| fooker wrote:
| A friend started working in this space last year. It
| seems like the usual story here is smaller companies
| giving you lottery tickets in the form of pre-IPO
| options. And large established companies paying a bit
| below market rates.
| varjag wrote:
| See when people say "tech" colloquially it means website
| and app developers, not us embedded dev hobos.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Eh, embedded and sensor-fusion devs are making bank
| working at Waymo, or VR at Apple or Meta. It's less about
| the field itself and more about big-tech salary-leveling
| (and insane profits)
| esoterica wrote:
| Facebook, Apple and Google are very big companies which
| hire a lot of very well paid engineers. We're not talking
| about being an NFL quarterback or something where only a
| small handful of people will reach that level. Being a
| big tech engineer is probably the easiest and most
| achievable path to $500k/year on the planet.
| ta1243 wrote:
| Quite
|
| https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=ac7c7bbe4f75d28c --
| Staff software engineer 160-200k.
|
| https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=4a0886dfc2bbf783 --
| 100-150k with need for top-secret clearance
|
| Then in Bay area specifically
|
| https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=2629520bf28dce4d --
| Senior staff 175-360k
|
| https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=9822ada0313c9665 --
| 150-300k for staff engineer in ML
|
| https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=088b23b29fd809a7 --
| Senior 185k
|
| 400-500k is way over average for the Bay Area, let alone
| anywhere else
| fooker wrote:
| The range posted is usually just the base pay. For most
| public companies the total compensation would be ~60-80%
| more because of the stock. For senior positions, this
| would sometimes be 2x.
| justin66 wrote:
| I would have put it differently, but your use of
| "average" made me wonder what you were thinking as well.
| I'm still not quite sure. You're not a hypothetical
| person whose salary and job prospects are unknown to...
| you. If you've received job offers locally and overseas
| that would be interesting, but what you're talking about
| sounds like speculation.
| fooker wrote:
| >If you've received job offers locally and overseas that
| would be interesting, but what you're talking about
| sounds like speculation.
|
| Yes, I had considered moving to Europe after completing
| my Phd. The offers were about 1/3rd of US, with a
| significantly lower potential for growing beyond a few
| tens of percentages over 5-10 years.
| justin66 wrote:
| Yeah, that's a pretty massive difference.
| machomaster wrote:
| If you say something ridiculous and get gently called on
| it, it does not mean ad hominem.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| Ok so you're in a hot sub-field. Your experience is not
| typical even at the companies you've named. And it's
| definitely not typical "after a few years", unless it's a
| new PhD in hot field * top tier company * multiple good
| reviews. And you're probably extrapolating the
| anomalously good stock performance that frankly you have
| no control over.
|
| Your average Leetcode drone that makes it into those
| companies is making $300k after 5 years.
| fooker wrote:
| >Ok so you're in a hot sub-field.
|
| Compilers. Not hot, but a bit niche so it sometimes pays
| well. Not any more than ML or distributed systems
| specialists.
|
| >Your experience is not typical even at the companies
| you've named
|
| You can check levels.fyi for averages, don't have to rely
| on my word.
|
| >Your average Leetcode drone that makes it into those
| companies is making $300k after 5 years.
|
| You are right. So, now the question is: given you are not
| an 'average leetcode drone' do you work in the US or
| Europe. I hope this clarifies why competent European
| computer scientists and engineers move to the US in large
| numbers.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| Wtf? So if you and your partner get a top 1% tech job in
| the US you can out earn an average job in Europe. No
| shit!
| fooker wrote:
| The math is more like: top 10% of tech jobs in the US
| would make ~3-4x of top 10% of Europe. And there are so
| many tech jobs in the US that this top 10% is much larger
| in number than anywhere else. There's a reason people
| emigrate to the US from everywhere despite pretty harsh
| work environment and social security nets.
|
| For example, a Google IC5/6 in Paris would make between
| 150k-200k vs ~500-700k in the bay area.
| skullone wrote:
| And the bay area apartment would cost $8k/MO for a 3br/2
| bath to raise a single kid in.
| fooker wrote:
| Yes, it does.
|
| You are likely not going to be renting an apartment with
| that kind of money, you are just making your landlord
| rich.
|
| Instead, you put a 200k deposit, pay the same 8k per
| month as mortgage (approx 1/3rd of your salary is the
| rule of thumb), and sell the house or apartment after a
| while. That way, you are not losing any money.
|
| Check https://www.nerdwallet.com/mortgages/mortgage-
| calculator for confirming these numbers.
| cudgy wrote:
| ... unless the price of properties goes ... down
| fooker wrote:
| If it goes to zero, it is almost equivalent to have payed
| rent for 30 years! ;)
|
| If it becomes half, you still have a home to live in rent
| free.
|
| More likely it doubles every 10-15 years.
| danenania wrote:
| The bay area is expensive, but not _that_ expensive. 4-6k
| /mo in rent will get you a 3-4br in all but the most
| expensive neighborhoods. You could also rent a house for
| that much in many nice bay area suburbs.
| jorvi wrote:
| That's 150-200k _on the earning side_. In most European
| countries this has a bunch of social security pay-in,
| pension pay-in, employer-side employee tax etc. already
| paid for via the employer. The "real" wage is often close
| to double, so 300k-400k vs 500k-700k, which doesn't sound
| nearly as grim once you factor in the much better quality
| of life.
| fooker wrote:
| Yes, you can make the math work for you by factoring in
| subjective criteria like quality of life.
|
| > on the earning side
|
| I'm not sure if you are aware but some of the things you
| mention are also provided by good employers in the US,
| but they are not obligated to.
| isodev wrote:
| Very much this. Folks tend to compare absolute numbers at
| the top of their payslip while forgetting all the rest.
| You don't get good roads and healthcare out of nothing.
| esoterica wrote:
| A pension is not worth 150k-200k a year in compensation.
| Also taxes are higher in most of Europe, even taking
| payroll taxes into account (I assume that's what you mean
| by social security pay in).
| rsynnott wrote:
| > For example, a Google IC5/6 in Paris would make between
| 150k-200k vs ~500-700k in the bay area.
|
| Having worked for Big Tech(TM) in Ireland, I'm a _little_
| sceptical of those numbers. There's a big gap, but, at
| least in the mid levels, it is not _that_ big.
|
| Levels.fyi seems to have paywalled most of their data, so
| I can't find what Google pay in Paris, but the lowest
| they show for total compensation for an L6 is $390k,
| highest $720k. Both of those are serious outliers; median
| is $550k. While I'm always a bit suspicious of levels.fyi
| data, I think you're seriously exaggerating how big the
| gap is, at least in big tech (it can be a lot bigger in
| small startups).
| saithound wrote:
| Let me share my math.
|
| Let's just take one perk I get to enjoy right now: I can
| afford to live in a high density city block with a long-
| term average yearly homicide rate below 4 per 100000
| inhabitants.
|
| In the U.S. I could replicate this only by purchasing a
| city block sized campus for myself and then investing in
| very very good screening of tenants and a private
| security force.
|
| Based on average salaries of police and municipal
| infrastructure workers, combined with real estate prices
| in major U.S. metros, even with a bit of optimization, I
| couldn't get the cost to go below $2,150,023,240 for the
| first year (including real estate purchases) and about
| $1b yearly afterwards. I could maybe go lower by building
| my own city block somewhere outside a major metro, but I
| think infrastructure costs would eat that up.
|
| And that's just one perk I got to enjoy: others, such as
| living within walking distance to my workplace, would be
| even harder to replicate. Yet others, like the ability to
| visit a borthel without having to worry about losing my
| job or going to jail, are nigh impossible.
|
| Sure, there's additional efficiency where one action can
| help achieve multiple such perks, so let's assume I could
| replicate the lifestyle I enjoyed for a measlt $1b pa.
| That's about 8000x the annual income I had when I
| retired. And US salaries are not even 10x higher than
| Australian ones, so as far as I can tell, the math is not
| even close to working out.
|
| (Of course, not everybody cares about these specific
| perks, and for some the U.S. may be a better fit. They're
| welcome to emigrate: the ones who don't appear to care
| enough to vote and keep these policies in place every 3
| years, so I doubt anybody's getting the short end of the
| stick. The point is that it's stupid to compare salary
| numbers, because a lot of the things people want are
| trivial conveniences here and still unaffordable for even
| the richest people in other places, and vice versa.)
| fooker wrote:
| >I can afford to live in a high density city block with a
| long-term average yearly homicide rate below 4 per 100000
| inhabitants.
|
| It's great you gave a clear threshold instead of making
| it vague. Here are some US cities that would satisfy this
| criteria according to wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org
| /wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...) : San Diego, San
| Jose (yeah I'm surprised too..), NYC (also unexpected!),
| Portland, Seattle.
| saithound wrote:
| LOL. That's not the rate of my city, it's the rate of the
| high density business district I live in. The city itself
| has a much lower homicide rate, because there are large
| suburbs where people onpy sleep and nothing ever happens.
| The homicide rate of Downtown San Jose (the closest
| equivalent area) is a whopping 41/100k. So not a good
| look there.
| titanomachy wrote:
| > achieving a homicide rate below 4/100k would require
| building a secure compound and hiring live security
|
| This is a little silly. There are many US cities that
| meet that standard. Seattle's rate is 6/100k which sounds
| reasonably safe to me. I've never known anyone (and none
| of my friends knows anyone) who has died by intentional
| homicide. It's simply not something that we worry about.
|
| > living within walking distance to work is hard to
| replicate
|
| Why would this be the case? Major cities have both large
| tech offices and dense housing. My office has many
| apartments, townhomes, and single-family homes within
| walking distance. The neighborhood it's located in is
| quite livable.
|
| > visiting a brothel without losing my job is impossible
|
| This one is probably true. If regular brothel access is a
| priority, then the US is probably not a good choice.
| Nevada might be an exception.
| saithound wrote:
| > I've never known anyone (and none of my friends knows
| anyone) who has died by intentional homicide. It's simply
| not something that we worry about.
|
| I do know people who were hit by a car while crossing
| residential streets.
|
| I don't know any people who were hit by a car while
| crossing a highway.
|
| This doesn't mean highways are safer to cross on foot
| than residential streets.
|
| Similarly, the people who are not murder victims in US
| cities must change their natural behavior in thousands of
| costly and humiliating ways so as to not become victims,
| and all that effort still doesn't keep the murder rate
| lower than the 30-60s that US downtowns have. Do you mind
| your own business while a teenager walks out of the
| grocery store without paying? Congratulations, you won't
| show up in those homicide stats. But it's not merely the
| stats that were the problem: it's the amount of social
| disfunction that it indicates and you won't buy your way
| out of that by any realistic higher salary.
|
| Similarly, I don't personally know anybody who died of
| lung cancer, but would also not be keen to wear a
| respirator so that I can safely eat in a restaurant where
| people smoke.
|
| > There are many US cities that meet that standard.
|
| Oh, I'm sure there are many such _cities_. But that's not
| the rate of my city, it's the rate of the high density
| business district I live in. The city itself has a still
| lower homicide rate, but it's not relevant. I can't find
| data about the homicide rate of high-density living
| downtown areas of Seattle, but I doubt it's lower than
| that of the city itself.
|
| > living within walking distance to work is hard to
| replicate
|
| Because then you have to make your city block purchase in
| the immediate vicinity of your employer's office, which
| will further increase costs since you won't be able to
| choose among the cheapest high density city blocks.
| titanomachy wrote:
| I don't have access to statistics for specific
| neighborhoods either, but I'm willing to believe
| Australia is safer in that respect. Singapore's rates are
| so low that they make Australia and the US both look
| unacceptably dangerous. Perception is relative.
|
| I'm not aware of any humiliating ways that I change my
| behavior to avoid being murdered, although perhaps if you
| observed me for a few days you would notice some.
|
| I have never looked into buying an entire city block so
| can't comment on that. I've been content with a single
| home so far.
| saithound wrote:
| To be clear, I am not looking into buying an entire city
| block: I am glad I can afford to live the lifestyle I
| want without having to. This wouldn't be available in the
| US, which is why the math didn't work out and I didn't
| move there given the opportunity. And I get salty when
| people like GP insist that this implies faulty math
| skills. I'm glad others who have different preferences
| can live elsewhere and do their own thing, though,
| especially if I am separated from them by land and water.
|
| Re murder rates: I can't find data for Seattle, but based
| on data I could find (San Jose below, LA) I'd expect the
| rate to be about 10x higher for downtown high-density
| areas than for the whole city. Which is pretty bad.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| Hello, I am an American who has never been murdered. I am
| curious to learn more about the humiliating ways I have
| unknowingly modified my behavior to avoid a violent
| death. Can you be more specific?
| saithound wrote:
| Sure, let's be more specific. First of all, do you live
| in a high density area with a high homicide rate?
|
| If so, answer the following questions.
|
| - Have you ever seen somebody walk out of a convenience
| store without paying. If so, would you try to say
| anything disapproving to such a person?
|
| - If you're a woman, have you ever taken an Uber instead
| of the bus service your taxes subsidize because of safety
| concerns? If not, has this happened to a partner or
| friend? Would you let your underage daughter take the bus
| home from somewhere alone after dark?
|
| - Have you ever had to cross the road because you weren't
| comfortable walking past somebody standing/lying on the
| corner?
|
| - It's 3am. A large group of teenagers are having a party
| in your apartment building. They're still at it and
| they're very loud. Are you comfortable heading over and
| asking them to keep it down?
|
| - It's 6pm. A large group of teenagers are hanging out in
| a public park near your place. You are curious about what
| they're up to. Are you comfortable walking past them
| while keeping eye contact with one of them and visibly
| checking out what they're doing?
|
| - Would you consider walking the streets regularly while
| wearing an all-red streetwear outfit with a red paisley
| style bandana? How about a different color,say blue?
|
| - Would you feel safe wandering the neighborhood at night
| in a drag costume?
|
| - Would you feel safe wearing a black t-shirt with white
| text announcing that you don't like the music of a
| popular local rap artist?
|
| If you don't do some otherwise perfectly reasonable and
| morally activities because it would be irresponsible or
| unsafe to do so, you're modifying your behavior. If you
| don't feel that you need to modify your behavior to avoid
| being a victim of violent crime, chances are it's only
| because you're very very lucky with your preferences.
| Some people happen not to want to do any of these
| activites, of course, but that doesn't change the fact
| that one can safely engage in them here, but not in any
| comparable area in the U.S.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| Not curious enough to deal with a conversation this
| crazy, though. Best of luck.
| varjag wrote:
| The brothels bit is oddly specific, but it's worth
| mentioning consuming prostitution in many European
| countries (including some of those with top wages) is
| illegal.
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| But who is talking about 2 incomes and possibly living
| even with a partner in one household?
| ta1243 wrote:
| Based on the OPs figures 1 income with the same expenses
| would be 1m profit, more than income alone in europe.
|
| I don't believe those figures (and they're meaningless
| for europeans as you can't simply get a job in the US),
| but if you take them at face value finanically living in
| the US for a decade is the sensible approach.
|
| Obviously you'd want to leave before your kids went to
| school
| fooker wrote:
| You don't have to believe me, look at the data points.
| The recipe you are looking for is: senior position at big
| tech, preferably doing something specialized.
|
| For example: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/facebook/sa
| laries/software-... https://www.levels.fyi/companies/nvid
| ia/salaries/software-en...
|
| >and they're meaningless for europeans as you can't
| simply get a job in the US
|
| We have plenty of Europeans in big tech, though the usual
| path is either through attending university in the US or
| intra-company transfers. You can get a job directly if
| yoy are extraordinary, but I have not seen that happen
| very often.
|
| > Obviously you'd want to leave before your kids went to
| school
|
| We tried this, and the kid refused.
| Symbiote wrote:
| >> Obviously you'd want to leave before your kids went to
| school
|
| > We tried this, and the kid refused.
|
| That also works the other way.
|
| An American colleague left Denmark so his children could
| grow up in the USA, but after about 3 months came back
| because the children missed their personal freedom.
| (Freedom to walk/cycle home from school, see friends
| without needing parents to drive them, etc.)
| fooker wrote:
| Yeah makes sense.
|
| I attended a boarding school in a third world country, it
| was a pretty neat childhood!
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I'm 30, I can effortlessly save 100k a year after
| spending money on everything you listed.
|
| If you're happier in the EU that's fine, but the math
| definitely doesn't check out for people focused on
| finances: even when you take soft benefits into account
| nasmorn wrote:
| I made 245k USD before taxes in the EU last year self
| employed. Most people I know cannot believe how much
| money I made. To make that money you don't just need to
| be an average leet Code drone but negotiate great
| contracts on your projects and take on and manage a lot
| of risk.
|
| What I am saying is: the math definitely doesn't check
| out because apparently someone in my position would be
| doing 3x in the US
| bobthepanda wrote:
| are piano lessons, private tutors, and sports clubs
| regularly affordable in Europe? those hardly sound like
| government provided services
| tyfon wrote:
| Most of it is government provided here in Norway. My
| daughtes do (private) piano lessons and theatre and it's
| organized and paid by the muni. Sports clubs might have a
| small fee for equipment, but it's also heavily sponsored
| by the government, the national lottery etc.
|
| For the things not free you can often have them paid for
| if you are in the low income brackets, and some places
| just give credit for those types of activity to all
| children.
|
| The reasoning is that children of low income families
| shouldn't be excluded.
| fooker wrote:
| A lot of US public schools provide this, but the quality
| can be questionable in/around large metros.
| mokkol wrote:
| Here in Spain, I pay EUR35/month for weekly piano lessons
| for my daughter. She loves it and we are really happy
| with her teacher as well. All from the public music
| school.
| ta1243 wrote:
| > The UK is particular, brexit did not do them any good.
|
| No shit. That's why working people voted to remain.
| That's why young people voted to remain. That's why
| educated people voted to remain.
|
| The majority of people in the UK today that voted, voted
| to remain. Far more leave voters have died in the last 8
| years than remain voters.
| admissionsguy wrote:
| Few people realise that the EU countries and the US are no
| longer in the same wealth category. There is a 50%
| difference in GDP per capita between Germany and the USA,
| for example.
|
| It's not a matter of offering benefits in kind instead of
| money, but rather a fundamental difference in resources
| available.
| leipert wrote:
| The GDP per capita in the US is (85k USD) and in Germany
| (54k USD) nominal. That's about 57% higher. At PPP
| (purchase power parity) 85k US vs 67k Germany, which
| "only" is a 27% difference.
|
| Denmark rates at 68k / 77k. So much closer. Norway is
| tricky to compare and Netherlands, Ireland and
| Switzerland are tax havens.
|
| - Nominal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countr
| ies_by_GDP_(no...
|
| - PPP: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_
| by_GDP_(PP...
| varjag wrote:
| These estimates are really approximate and depend on the
| exchange rate. The lowest rate of NOK/USD on my memory
| was 5.6 and the highest nearly 12.
|
| Developer salaries in Norway are decent as Europe goes
| but if you want to make money hand over fist there's no
| other place like America. Yes even with all the old world
| perks imaginable.
| admissionsguy wrote:
| The population of Denmark is equal to that of Wisconsin.
| If we look at Denmark simply because it's among the
| richest EU countries, it might be more appropriate to
| compare it with the richest US states. Taking the top 5
| state (California), we get $100k vs $68k (nominal), again
| ca 50%.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_ter
| rit...
| datascienced wrote:
| Outsiders have the disadvantage of needing a visa but the
| advantage of a $2k excess (the cost of the return flight)
| for unlimited chronic condition management. Obviously ER is
| different as you can't go home quickly.
|
| Once you return home you might get to keep the job while in
| the hone country and rake it in.
| lannisterstark wrote:
| >I've always loved that narrative for its optimism
|
| Despite all the European love, most of Europe (and rather,
| most of the world) is pretty poor compared to US.
| mchaver wrote:
| Well, I also like that my neighbors and community also have
| access to no-pay-at-point-of-use healthcare, low cost
| education options and guaranteed time off. Makes for a
| relatively relaxed and content population!
|
| If you don't invest in (or put up lots of barriers to) the
| health and education of the entire community, then you are
| going to have an unhealthy and uneducated community.
|
| That's not to say we don't have many problems, but in my
| personal experience it's a lot less than the US in those
| regards.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > have access to no-pay-at-point-of-use healthcare
|
| This really depends on the country. In the UK you need to
| go private and pay if you want any kind of timely
| healthcare.
| oooyay wrote:
| > This is what rest of the world looks like USA people!
|
| This statement really depends on whatever part of the USA
| you're in and what kind of work you do.
|
| > No $200k TC interns out here.
|
| I haven't seen that yet, but I think an SF-based intern (if
| they were paid for the whole year) would make roughly $120k.
| There are plenty of people living in the Bay who haven't
| lived there 10 years who comparatively take home very little.
|
| All that to say, I don't think we need to dice up and turn
| the developer market against itself. We've all been affected
| by wage stagnation, the rising cost of metros, and the threat
| that we must live in them _or else_. Labor movements are good
| for all laborers, etc etc etc
| datascienced wrote:
| I hope from the comments people seek higher wages for their
| worth - if everyone did this it would create a force
| pushing up dev salaries. The tech profits can more than
| handle this and smaller shops would have to stop doing
| inefficient stuff. I think cheaper devs allows laziness in
| thinking. Just throw a bigger team at it, see if it sticks.
| datascienced wrote:
| Edit: stagflation is the wrong word I think as that means
| high unemployment. I wouldn't say that is the case, just
| suppressed wages.
| devjab wrote:
| While what you say is sort of true, developers are paid
| better than what you made it sound like for me. The
| difference is perhaps that professions like truck drivers and
| a lot of tradeskills are compensated very well because there
| is a general lack of people in those professions. We also
| have very strong unions (and legislation because of it) in
| those areas, so it's not easy to "displace" (is this the
| right English word?) truck drivers with cheap foreign labour
| in a lot of EU countries.
|
| Unlike professions like plumbers, however, IT personal is
| becoming increasingly easy to come by. And since they never
| really formed unions, the so called golden days are over for
| a lot of IT professionals. Maybe excluding hardcore IT
| operations, networking and at least for now developers.
|
| I wouldn't be able to earn what I do as a truck driver
| though. Maybe half with more hours? Interestingly enough I
| didn't get there by being rewarded for any work. I got there
| by switching jobs.
| Tade0 wrote:
| In outsourcing destination regions like South America, the
| European eastern block(my location), India and SEA, software
| engineers still make multiples of the average wage for the
| region.
|
| It's the geopolitical west that's largely stuck in this
| situation, but IIRC that has been the case for a while now -
| when I was considering emigration around eight years ago I
| noticed that the salary differences are not as huge as I
| thought and in some places (like Germany) it's just a job
| like any other.
| Log_out_ wrote:
| Mysterious why Germany has no software mega Corp, ever so
| mysterious, it's almost like everything software is linear
| in Germany meanwhile it's exponential somewhere else. I
| propose the theory that there is a massive object beneath
| cal to blame.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > Mysterious why Germany has no software mega Corp,
|
| I hear SAP is kind of a big deal.
| piltdownman wrote:
| Truck (Lorry) Driving in the UK paying what it does is an
| economic aberration caused by Brexit and Covid 19 - e.g.
| 16,000 fewer EU nationals working as HGV drivers in the year
| ending March 2021.
|
| In the end they had a shortage of nearly 100,000 drivers and
| had to massively incentivise new entrants to the industry.
| It's a complete outlier as far as blue collar vs white collar
| jobs in the UK/EU for the most part.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/57810729
|
| That said, overall the EU is paying somewhere around
| EUR80-120k for Senior Developers in the HCOL areas and as low
| as EUR45k in places like Spain. Overall, individual
| Contributor salaries outstripping even minor middle
| management is rare below architect or principal outside of
| FAANG.
|
| This leads to the situation the commenter above identifies -
| that fairly vacuous softer-skill based IT Roles like Scrum
| Master or ART or Release Manager out-earn the median Engineer
| and are seen as a viable alternative for motivated people.
| gadders wrote:
| IR35 rules were a big factor as well, making it less
| lucrative for people to be self-employed truck drivers. It
| also paid better to be a delivery driver for Amazon than a
| truck driver.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| Those "vacuous" roles exist to ensure that the dev team
| isn't lighting company money on fire working on the wrong
| thing, or crippled by inefficient bureaucracy which is also
| lighting money on fire. Which isn't "vacuous;" there is
| value in saving the company money.
| brailsafe wrote:
| If that's what they do
| trey-jones wrote:
| Yeah, from my point of view we're going to need more 38 year-
| olds starting new careers as developers to replace those of us
| that started at 28 and are ready to move on. I'm about 13 years
| in, but have been burned out for at least 5 years and I'm
| finally ready to admit it. Get me out of here.
| hnthrowaway0328 wrote:
| I thought about making the same move but quickly dropped the
| idea when I see this:
|
| The average salary for a truck driver is $24.98 per hour in
| Montreal, QC.
|
| That's less than a third of my cash compensation.
|
| I do wish getting a non programming laid back day job so that I
| can program happily in my free time. I kinda gave up the idea
| to find a programming job that I love to do -- it's just
| technically too tough to get into one of those low level
| programming jobs.
| cudgy wrote:
| Are you average?
| hnthrowaway0328 wrote:
| Average on what? I'm sure my truck driving skill is less
| than the average truck drivers.
| levidos wrote:
| What's the max someone can earn as a HGV driver in the UK?
| kgf1980 wrote:
| I'd guesstimate if you were in a high-demand/niche role with
| a high hourly rate, plus you can max out your hours each
| week, probably around PS65k?
| pc86 wrote:
| The best thing I ever did for my love of programming was moving
| (temporarily) into management. All of a sudden I was spending
| 10-15 hours weekly in nights and weekends writing more code
| than I previously had been in 40 working hours. It's amazing
| what a combination of a) working on your own things that you're
| more passionate about and b) not spending 20-25 hours coding
| already will do for your motivation.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Same. It's nice to not have the pressure of delivering on vague
| and intangible goals. I just move cargo from point A to B.
| Simple as. Also, my home life has improved greatly because I
| don't have thoughts of work in the back of my mind. I took a
| vacation recently and it was the first time in 10+ years I felt
| like I was really on vacation.
| kgf1980 wrote:
| For me it's the fact I hand my keys in at the end of a shift,
| and I don't have to think about work until I go in for my
| next shift - liberating after years of checking work emails
| from the sofa at night.
| rekoros wrote:
| Sometimes I wonder what kind of a world we'd be living in if
| places like Flatiron School and the various bootcamps taught
| Elixir instead of Ruby.
|
| Also, "lorry" is such a great word, too bad there's no use for it
| in the US.
| sosodev wrote:
| My guess is that world would be indistinguishable from ours.
| There is nothing wrong with Ruby.
| rekoros wrote:
| Elixir wouldn't exist without Ruby, so I have nothing but
| gratitude.
|
| My question angles more toward learning functional
| programming first, and I doubt it'll ever happen at bootcamps
| (though - my understanding is that's exactly what happens at
| Berkeley/MIT with Lisp/Scheme in CS101 (I'd argue with decent
| results)) - so it's very much a hypothetical.
| ativzzz wrote:
| > I'd argue with decent results
|
| Is it decent results because of functional programming? Or
| decent results because those colleges select for the people
| who generally have the most intellectual aptitude and you
| could have them write Cobol on tape for CS101 and they'd
| still be great
| rekoros wrote:
| I don't know, but I doubt that they're so smart that
| they're the only ones who "deserve", somehow, to be
| blessed with functional CS101.
|
| I heard that it's a special form of torture, since those
| CS programs must be hard, but I don't really buy it.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Well, it's Open Courseware, so you can find out for
| yourself if you're so inclined.
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| I'm genuinely curious what you mean. Elixir is a different
| paradigm but I've yet to understand how Elixir is inherently
| "better" than Ruby.
| rekoros wrote:
| Oh, I don't think there's a universal "better" when it comes
| to such things, and I'm not implying that one is universally
| better than the other.
|
| I discovered the Elixir runtime (BEAM) a few years before
| Elixir was created (we were using the Erlang language then),
| and for my specific use cases, when I understood the
| principles of concurrency, error handling, and introspection
| in BEAM, it caused quite an epiphany. It was also scary,
| because I had to unlearn pretty much everything I knew :)
|
| From a purely esthetic perspective, I find that pattern
| matching and tail recursion-enabled programming patterns are
| more concise, easier to comprehend, and are less error-prone
| than those offered by the more mainstream languages that
| don't have those features.
|
| In my experience - and I'm not a particularly great
| programmer, so it was welcome - I found that I produced code
| with signifcantly fewer dumb errors when I no longer had
| access to imperative programming paradigms and was forced to
| come up with more "functional" solutions.
|
| I don't believe that functional programming is inherently
| more complex than what we learn in school/college/work with
| conventional languages. My question really stems from the
| idea of learning functional first - and I do wonder what that
| would look like.
| sosodev wrote:
| That's a fine perspective but the way you worded your
| comment was evocative of the typical "X is objectively
| better than Y" tech comment. Are you aware that Ruby
| includes a lot of functional programming features
| (including pattern matching)?
| rekoros wrote:
| I think it's great that functional programming is making
| its way into traditional imperative languages - even
| JavaScript (I recently came across
| https://gcanti.github.io/fp-ts/ as a pretty extreme
| example)
|
| Elixir/Erlang has function-level pattern matching, which
| I really like. I've yet to see it anywhere else, though
| my understanding is it came from Prolog.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| I worked at a ruby on rails startup and currently am 5 years
| into a stint as CTO and lead engineer of a startup using
| elixir.
|
| Ruby shines where you need to just pull some off the shelf
| libraries and get something together. you save on developer
| time but your devops setup needs to be a bit more complicated
| to handle scaling issues which will come sooner. That said,
| ruby is a lovely language to work in for the most part.
|
| Havign said that, I personally think elixir is the winner for
| reliability and maintainability. yes, there aren't as many
| libraries for elixir and they don't have the same level of
| "drop in and use" functionality that ruby has. elixir's
| ecosystem's whole approach is to make everythign standardized
| lego pieces so there's a little but more work up front.
|
| Once you are actually writing your own code however, i find
| there's less bugs as immutable data structures eliminate
| whole classes of bugs you find in ruby. Its not as air tight
| as a fully typed language but I do get descent warnings at
| compile time to catch plenty of low hanging fruit when it
| comes to runtime errors. to be sure, you definitly have to
| think differently about how you code as you haev to think in
| a more functional style.
|
| Of course elixir's real claim to fame is going to be a
| combination of concurrency and performance. elixir's
| metaprogramming happens at compile time and in my experience,
| elixir systems just run faster than the equvalent ruby code.
| at my startup, all scaling conversations end up being around
| pushing postgresql and optomizing our queries. We have yet to
| really hit the ceiling of our api server.
|
| Ecto, phoenix's db library, is just a better abstraction for
| database interaction than activerecord. it doesn't try to
| shoehorn database queries into objects. database records map
| to elixir records and you write queries using a set of macros
| that map pretty cleanly to sql with easy escape hatches if
| you need to use soe nonstandard sql. The result is that we
| don't spend much time tryign to debug how a db query in
| elixir maps to the output sql. its easy to tell at a glance.
| of course this does require that you actually understand how
| sql works.
|
| lastly, if you want to build anything on top of websockets.
| there's no comparison. elixir is just better. comparing ror
| to elixir in terms of websockets is like comparing a cesna to
| an f16.
| arrowsmith wrote:
| > Once you are actually writing your own code however, i
| find there's less bugs as immutable data structures
| eliminate whole classes of bugs you find in ruby. Its not
| as air tight as a fully typed language but I do get descent
| warnings at compile time to catch plenty of low hanging
| fruit when it comes to runtime errors. to be sure, you
| definitly have to think differently about how you code as
| you haev to think in a more functional style.
|
| This is my experience too - Elixir might not be statically
| typed, but it's not nearly as big of a problem as you'd
| think. Immutability, pattern matching, and the general
| functional style all give you some strong guardrails that
| avoid a lot of the usual pitfalls of a dynamic language.
| Plus you also get the _benefits_ of dynamic typing too
| (flexibility, more succinct code, faster iteration time.)
|
| Sure, it's not as foolproof as a full static type system,
| but it's good enough in my experience. It's not even close
| to the uber-fragile NoMethodError clusterfuck that is Ruby
| development.
|
| I wrote a longer blog post a while back expounding on this
| point if anyone's interested:
| https://phoenixonrails.com/blog/you-might-not-need-
| gradual-t...
| chefandy wrote:
| Existing Elixir shops probably aren't looking for fresh
| bootcamp grad level coders, and those grads' skillsets don't
| hold any weight until there's enough to start affecting new
| project decisions, which probably wouldn't have happened. Even
| Ruby is a stretch as a one-trick skillset for new developers
| without CS degrees, and it was quite popular well before
| bootcamps were: that's why they taught it. I mean, I love me
| some Elixir, but the result is that most of the schools would
| have closed within months and the graduates would probably not
| have gained much from them.
| boguscoder wrote:
| You say Lorry and post a picture with left sided wheel, hmmm But
| seriously, great story, way too many people dont have
| courage/confidence/financial backup for such a large career shift
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| It's still a lorry.
| skort wrote:
| It's great to see people being able to pivot their careers later
| in life. That said,
|
| > folks overcoming challenges just to be on the same playground
| as everyone else
|
| This has the same energy as "Kids raise money to buy classmate a
| wheelchair" news articles, where sure it makes you feel good to
| see people doing good in the world, but completely ignores that
| the system we live in keeps certain people down on purpose.
| akira2501 wrote:
| > keeps certain people down on purpose.
|
| That's what makes it so pernicious. No one is being targeted
| and being kept down "on purpose." It's a failure to correctly
| orient priorities and to see that the balance of tax money is
| spent on improving individual citizens lives and outcomes.
|
| > It's great to see people being able to pivot their careers
| later in life.
|
| It'd be even better if we just paid them what they were worth
| so they didn't have to put a bunch of effort into moving
| sideways across the labor market like this.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| > the system we live in keeps certain people down on purpose.
|
| That's the main objective of the education system. To teach you
| that.
|
| If you are supposed to be "kept down" succeeding or god forbid
| excelling will be met with either resistance or extreme
| punishment.
|
| Sometimes covertly but many time overtly behind closed doors
| and with small groups of people.
| jmkni wrote:
| I strongly object to 38 being _later in life_
| downrightmike wrote:
| Over half the average lifespan for the USA average and male,
| slightly under if female.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| Unless you want to jump from "early" to "late", that puts
| 38 decidedly in the middle.
| skullone wrote:
| Sure, if you intend on working until your late 70s. I'm
| not sure which side of the coin with AI and shit wether
| or not coding vs hauling is a longer term career
| anamexis wrote:
| Most people don't start working from birth, either.
| ta1243 wrote:
| However only about 15 years into your career (assuming
| college so starting work aged 23) with about 30 to go
| (retiring at 68)
| pantulis wrote:
| 50+ here. I think the point is it is ok to consider 38 as
| "later in life" if you take into account that there will be
| at least one or two other "laters in life" in your career.
| user_7832 wrote:
| I know reddit isn't universally liked here on HN but there's
| the community r/orphancrushingmachine which is exactly this. _"
| Class gets together and makes donation to save orphan from
| orphan crushing machine!"_
|
| "But why does the machine even exist?"
| highwayman47 wrote:
| me being almost 38 thinking it's not that old
| jarsin wrote:
| As you get older you begin to realize that age obsession is
| like gossip. It's for the low IQ folks.
|
| You're really not old until you reach 80's where stuff like
| cognitive decline and frailty are more likely to start showing
| up.
|
| I use to think 40's was old when i was younger, but if you
| think about it you have another 40 some odd years until your
| old. Thats way longer than most companies, marriages, careers
| etc last.
| tiptup300 wrote:
| much like iq obsession, right?
| askonomm wrote:
| 80 is old? Where I'm from (Northern Europe) 80 is dead, not
| old. So given that you can't be old when you are already
| dead, old here is anywhere 60+, with 70+ being the last few
| years you have left (average life expetency is 76).
| seszett wrote:
| > _average life expetency is 76_
|
| Unless your _Northern Europe_ is Kaliningrad or somewhere
| else in Russia, 76 is the average life expectancy _for men_
| and _at birth_ (that 's in the Baltics, the rest of
| Northern Europe has higher life expectancy than that at
| birth). Life expectancy is much higher than that at 50 or
| 60, and also higher for women.
|
| Generally, in the Northern and Western Europe I know,
| people with a "normal" life without special health problems
| don't seem very old at 60 or 70, and they _expect_ to live
| to around 80 or more.
|
| Even in the US which is notorious for low life expectancy
| among OECD nations, the average age of death (from a quick
| Google search) seems to be 85[0].
|
| [0]https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-
| qimg-45a57c5080b55f9bd5313... (no source, date, or anything
| for this data)
| askonomm wrote:
| I admittedly made a quick google for Estonia, i.e
| Baltics, and it could've very well been only for men
| indeed. I must say however that the average age of death
| and average life expectancy being two different things is
| a bit confusing to me.
| jdmoreira wrote:
| He tried to explain to you that life expectancy "at
| birth" and life expectancy at 40, 50, etc... are
| different.
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| Modal age of death is usually in the 90s. Old is a
| subjective term. I guess people mean an age associated with
| frailty. People who die below 76 often die from non frailty
| associated diseases, and so their lives have been cut short
| before they got 'old'.
|
| Of course frailty is also subjective and relative. It's why
| everyone seems old compared to their prior self, and yet
| equally seems young compared to your elders.
| badpun wrote:
| In Poland, according to official government stats, 60 year
| old men will, on average, die at 78 year old. 60 yo women
| will, on average, die at 83 year old.
|
| Interestingly, for 30 year olds, it's average death at 73
| for men and 81 for women.
| dalemhurley wrote:
| 38 years old is quite young, and you have learnt quite a bit
| about life. For some reason, there is people in their 20's with
| 2 years of experience who think someone close to 40 cannot gain
| the some knowledge as them within 2 years. I would say someone
| in their 40's and 50's is going to be more pragmatic and
| disciplined with greater attention to detail as they have more
| life experience teaching them to be more patience.
| koinedad wrote:
| Are Ruby on Rails positions still pretty popular?
| iimblack wrote:
| In my job search for remote USA roles it seems a little less
| popular than Django just bolstered by the GitHub and Shopify
| postings. Node, dotnet, go, and Java all seem more popular.
| Lio wrote:
| Yes, it's popular enough that you can find work pretty easily.
|
| There's less openings than for JS, Java or C# but then there
| are less Ruby developers. That's the same as it ever was.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Trying to hire for it has been deeply unpleasant. Very few
| people actually have the experience they claim to have, and
| asking them basic programming questions that any senior
| developer should be able to talk about has roughly 80% of the
| candidates going straight to chatgpt and pretending the answer
| is theirs. I'm not talking leetcode stuff either, more like
| "what is polymorphism" or "what is refactoring".
|
| Maybe the whole industry has gone that way... but the smaller
| talent pool makes it a lot more obvious.
|
| Were it up to me, we would be using something else where I
| work, and not just because of the smaller talent pool (although
| that's probably the biggest reason). Many of the "delightful"
| and time saving things about rails either turn out to have
| relatively insignificant impacts for complex applications, or
| turn into sharp edges that slow us down.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| For experienced developers, it helps a lot to know the names
| of companies that use Rails. Every time you see an unfamiliar
| company, learn a bit about how they used Rails, through the
| interview, if nothing else is available. We're to the point
| where we can ask nearly anyone fairly specific questions
| about their contributions depending on the history we see on
| the resume.
|
| (I am not saying to avoid talking to people if you don't
| recognize the company.)
| aantix wrote:
| If I had to guess from postings on Twitter and Linkedin, I
| think hiring is taking everyone by surprise. I remember a
| Linkedin comment talking about how the company received
| 1,000+ applicants for a single dev job.
|
| Some blame the layoffs.
|
| I don't think so.
|
| Before GPT, it was a struggle for devs to appear articulate
| in the domains that they reference on their resume.
|
| Possessing exceptional writing abilities was a definitive
| competitive advantage.
|
| It's no longer. Now everyone can sound like an expert and
| craft a pretty good, customized, concise cover letter.
|
| The whole process needs to move to video-based cover letters.
| It's as simple as that.
| krainboltgreene wrote:
| > Now everyone can sound like an expert and craft a pretty
| good, customized, concise cover letter.
|
| Zero content coming from LLM's sounds like this and yes
| I've read quite a bit of output from a variety of them
| (including whatever version/release the reply is going to
| ask).
| aantix wrote:
| You probably have already read several cover letters from
| GPT that you _didn 't_ realize were programmatically
| generated.
| krainboltgreene wrote:
| I sincerely doubt that. Every one has been sharply
| obvious. I've also asked candidates after the fact and
| they were open about when they were/weren't. I haven't
| been wrong yet.
|
| There's this idea that LLM content is subversively good
| enough to pass muster, but ultimately if there's more
| than 3 sentences, it's not and you can ask any content
| moderator (Like publishing companies).
| datascienced wrote:
| We are 1-2 years from chatgpt being able to fool
| interviewers. I mean speed, latency, audio generation and
| processing. Just connect your camera to the AI you and get
| your smart double to take the interview. "Are you a bot" is
| going to be a question and they are hoping the AI safety
| people will make it answer correctly.
| joenot443 wrote:
| FWIW, a friend of mine paid to promote a job posting in
| LinkedIn for a junior remote React job, specifically asking
| only for Canadian applicants.
|
| When he woke up the next morning, there were 2500
| applications. Only 8 of them were from Canada, 95%+ were
| from India. Maybe 1/4 attached cover letters, every single
| one immediately recognizable as the soft, impersonal
| ChatGPT default temperature type tone. They all still
| checked the "I am a Canadian resident and eligible to work
| in Canada" box - my understanding is that this is being
| treated a bit like the "I have 10+ years of Ruby
| experience" box.
|
| I think that online applications are going to be broken for
| a while now, especially for junior roles. Any listing which
| is open will become a honeypot for eager applicants from
| around the world, hoping their profile will be exceptional
| enough that the company might turn a blind eye to the visa
| question.
|
| Either way, I encourage everyone I know to just leverage
| their network and seek referrals. Firing resumes into
| LinkedIn seems like a fools errand at this point.
| itake wrote:
| Ex-ruby on rails dev here, the RoR jobs don't typically pay
| as well as other jobs and the problem space tends to be more
| boring (creating CRUDL api were fun the first 100x).
| datascienced wrote:
| As a C#er who was interested in switching to rails: rails
| jobs pay less. And the kind of companies using it seem to be
| ones falling apart at the seams and interviewing was
| frustrating compared to C# jobs. I am not saying Rails is bad
| but more there is a common causation. Perhaps Rails being a
| go to for quick MVPs.
| neonsunset wrote:
| I'm curious, what led to the interest in the switch? Was it
| pre Core 3.1 or recent?
| badpun wrote:
| C# is mostly adopted by large, hugely profitable companies
| which were penetrated by Microsoft sales teams, whereas
| Ruby companies are the opposite - startups which have made
| it past the startup stage. Some of them are successful, but
| majority are small and not that profitable.
| gonzo41 wrote:
| Hire someone young and train them.
| zdragnar wrote:
| We've got plans to do just that in a few months, but we
| need to get at least another one or two seniors on the team
| to have the right balance of capacity. Otherwise, we
| wouldn't really be doing the juniors any service by
| bringing them on.
| randomdata wrote:
| _> "what is polymorphism"_
|
| I'm a senior developer at least in years, even writing my
| first Rails application when it was at version 0.6. I had to
| look this one up. And it seems the internet doesn't even
| share a consensus of what it means. Attempts to define it are
| all over the place.
|
| The non-tech definition seems to relate to tech most as to
| what people usually refer to as interfaces. In fact, one
| definition for "polymorphism" that I came across - which I
| dare say was the most reasonable of the bunch - asserted that
| interfaces are a formalization of polymorphism. I assume this
| matches your expectations.
|
| Given that, when would using the word "polymorphism" ever be
| useful as a senior developer? In Rails land, if you truly
| needed to communicate the concept to other developers (which
| is dubious), you're probably going to speak to duck typing
| instead. That is far more practical.
| pixote wrote:
| In the context of Rails, I assumed he was talking about
| polymorphic associations[0], which is quite common (e.g.
| active_storage_records)
|
| [0]https://guides.rubyonrails.org/association_basics.html#p
| olym...
| dalemhurley wrote:
| Too often I hear hiring managers complain that they cannot find
| good candidates for XYZ specific language. This is the most
| annoying thing in programming. A good developer can get up to
| speed with a language in a few weeks. I have and I have had
| teams go from zero to building full platforms in a new stack.
| Programming is mainly breaking down problems, creating
| solutions and then implementing them. The coding is just the
| end result.
| datascienced wrote:
| You want some experienced people with runtime platform
| knowledge in the team. For example async and thread
| semantics, common failure cases, best ways to do typing etc.
| europeanNyan wrote:
| If you are at the point where you are looking for
| additional Rails (or whatever) developers, you already
| hopefully have people with runtime platform knowledge in
| the team.
| ben7799 wrote:
| The Ruby aspect here is interesting.
|
| My gut feeling in my area is if you are coming to these jobs
| with a non-traditional background and don't have a CS degree
| you are better off studying Ruby or Python or something a
| little less traditional. If you are applying to places that use
| more popular languages you're competing in a sea of candidates
| with degrees and experience in those languages.
|
| I feel like the Ruby and Python shops are going to be more open
| minded about hiring someone without the expected degrees, and
| they are probably a bit more loose about some stuff.
|
| I have almost exclusively worked at Java shops, but I did work
| one job that was a Python shop. The team borderline hated
| Java/C++/C# in a political way and was militant about how great
| Python was. If you shared their feelings they would have a
| strong affinity with a candidate.
|
| Where I work now we have long had one oddball product that is
| built on Ruby on Rails. It had an equally passionate/weirdly
| political team that was really adamant Ruby was better than
| anything else and they also hired more people from non-
| traditional backgrounds.
|
| After I left the Python position for quite a few years I got
| recruiters who were strictly trying to find developers who
| would do Python.. as if it was going to be more important than
| what the product was or the team composition or corporate
| culture. If someone calls/writes me about a job where the team
| works in Java, C#, etc.. they don't emphasize the language,
| they emphasize something about the company, who is funding it,
| what the product is, etc..
| Havoc wrote:
| Wouldn't mind a crack at programming but coming from finance
| world the salary math isn't quite as easy as lorry driver. I'd
| need to land something pretty senior which isn't credible
| datascienced wrote:
| The man in the article took a 66% paycut.
| tossandthrow wrote:
| I have no idea about the salary level for lorry drivers, but
| a small curiosity:
|
| It is funny to read these treads, and then reading in another
| HN post that a guy was able to buy his first home driving
| laundry truck - and how his contemporary peers seemed to be
| jealous that they were not able to do such.
|
| It indeed seems like being a lorry driver is the easiest way
| to get started on the suburban life.
| zarzavat wrote:
| That low variance is double-edged. There is a cap to being
| a lorry driver, whereas for a developer you can make
| anything from under minimum wage to billions of dollars.
|
| Being a developer also has a higher status, which I don't
| personally care about but I have found to be useful in
| life.
| badpun wrote:
| You can only make billions as developer if you start a
| company. Then, you're no longer a developer, but rather a
| business owner and operator - something that a lorry
| driver can do as well. Also, there's probably larger
| chance of success in starting a company in logistics than
| in software.
| gadders wrote:
| Finance as in banking or finance as in accountancy? If it's
| banking you could look at StratPy, Python etc to go the quant-
| ish route which pays decently.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| ... To lorry driver at 40?
|
| The commentary on ageism in our profession that 38 is considered
| ancient to pick up this profession and this is like a freak show
| exhibit?
| zxspectrum1982 wrote:
| I used to be a KDE developer. We had some interesting cases of
| community members who went into IT: a soprano turned community
| manager, a grandmother turned developer because she wanted to
| enhance some games for her grandchildren, etc. Good times.
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