[HN Gopher] Environment shapes emotional cognitive abilities mor...
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Environment shapes emotional cognitive abilities more than genes
Author : NalNezumi
Score : 82 points
Date : 2024-04-21 12:12 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com)
| danparsonson wrote:
| > The investigators found that pairs of twins who had parents
| with higher levels of education and higher family incomes have
| similar results to each other, regardless of whether they were
| identical or fraternal. These observations suggested that
| familial environment was more likely to influence metacognitive
| abilities than genetics.
|
| Do they? Couldn't this alternatively show that metacognitive
| abilities are more broadly heritable? I would've thought that a
| twin study where identical twins were raised in different
| environments would be far more instructive?
|
| What am I missing here?
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > I would've thought that a twin study where identical twins
| were raised in different environments would be far more
| instructive?
|
| Both are instructive, but identical twins raised in different
| environment is a very small group compared to the other group,
| and there's a very strong confounding factor between them
| that's likely to have a massive impact on the later results:
| being separated from you twin brother/sister indicates you've
| had some pretty chaotic early life.
| drowsspa wrote:
| And isn't the womb an environment already?
| littlestymaar wrote:
| Definitely (the most obvious illustration of this are
| alcohol or tobacco use during pregnancy, but there's likely
| millions of other factor playing a role as well).
| westurner wrote:
| > _Decades of extensive research utilizing the classical twin
| paradigm have consistently demonstrated the heritability of
| nearly all cognitive abilities so far investigated.
|
| > _"Our findings emphasize that these shared family environmental
| factors, such as parental nurturing and the transmission of
| cultural values, likely play a significant role in shaping the
| mental state representations in metacognition and mentalizing."*
|
| "Distinct Genetic and Environmental Origins of Hierarchical
| Cognitive Abilities in Adult Humans" (2024)
| https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(24)003... :
|
| > _Human cognitive abilities ranging from basic perceptions to
| complex social behaviors exhibit substantial variation in
| individual differences. These cognitive functions can be
| categorized into a two-order hierarchy based on the levels of
| cognitive processes._ Second-order cognition including
| metacognition and mentalizing monitors and regulates first-order
| cognitive processes. _These two-order hierarchical cognitive
| functions exhibit distinct abilities. However, it remains unclear
| whether individual differences in these cognitive abilities have
| distinct origins. We employ the classical twin paradigm to
| compare the genetic and environmental contributions to the two-
| order cognitive abilities in the same tasks from the same
| population. The results reveal that individual differences in
| first-order cognitive abilities were primarily influenced by
| genetic factors. Conversely, the second-order cognitive abilities
| have a stronger influence from shared environmental factors.
| These findings suggest that the abilities of metacognition and
| mentalizing in adults are_ profoundly shaped by their
| environmental experiences and less determined by their biological
| nature.
| westurner wrote:
| Si se puedes!
|
| Emotional self regulation is a normed behavior that is
| modelable.
|
| Head start programs would thus be justified in having SEL
| Social and Emotional Learning components; but how much more
| effective is parental behavioral modeling than non-parental
| caregiving?
|
| Can't be done.
|
| In Africa, they say "It takes a village".
|
| One of perhaps 20 questions to split the sets with: "Can people
| change?"
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| fulltext: https://www.cell.com/cell-
| reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(24)003...
|
| > _It takes a village_
|
| Compare the first 36 characters of the 3 Character Classic:
| https://ctext.org/three-character-classic
|
| > _Can people change?_
|
| With training, dogs and horses improve their cross-species
| mentalizing; I'd hope training humans on same-species would
| be even easier.
| westurner wrote:
| There appears to be hippocampal neurogeneration even in old
| age.
|
| From "Multiple GWAS finds 187 intelligence genes and role
| for neurogenesis/myelination" (2018)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16337941 :
|
| > _re: nurture, hippocampal plasticity and hippocampal
| neurogenesis also appear to be affected by dancing and
| omega-3,6 (which are transformed into endocannabinoids by
| the body):https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15109698_
|
| Neuroplasticity:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity
|
| Adult neurogenesis:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_neurogenesis
|
| When we forget, we must re-learn. By studying forgetting,
| we learn about learning and creativity.
|
| Forgetting curve:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve
| NalNezumi wrote:
| >These cognitive functions can be categorized into a two-order
| hierarchy based on the levels of cognitive processes. Second-
| order cognition including metacognition and mentalizing
| monitors and regulates first-order cognitive processes.
|
| This way of modeling Cognitive functions in two distinct
| hierarchical ways, is it the same theory underlying the idea of
| "System 1 & System 2" presented in "Think fast and slow" by
| Daniel Kahneman?
|
| How accepted/supported by empirical evidence is this model
| westurner wrote:
| There is observable hierarchy in visual and auditory cortical
| topology.
|
| Is hierarchical clustering appropriate for cognitive
| processes?
|
| Control for clusterable Personality factors, Attachment
| styles, Educational instruction styles, Parenting styles,
|
| Cognitive psychology > Cognitive psychology vs. cognitive
| science: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology#C
| ognitive...
|
| Cognitive psychology > Cognitive processes: https://en.wikipe
| dia.org/wiki/Cognitive_psychology#Cognitive...
|
| Defence mechanism > Relation with coping; _Mature_ defense
| mechanisms or not, a Boolean:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism
|
| Social cognition > Social cognitive neuroscience: https://en.
| wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cognition#Social_cognit...
|
| Systems neuroscience:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_neuroscience
|
| Hypotheses: Theory of mind is advantageous in assessments
| emotional cognitive abilities, and even an NT or non-NT
| Boolean factor also predicts variance in the given
| assessments
|
| Theory of mind > Brain mechanisms: https://en.wikipedia.org/w
| iki/Theory_of_mind#Brain_mechanism...
|
| Three-Stratum Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-
| stratum_theory :
|
| > _The three-stratum theory is a theory of cognitive ability
| proposed by the American psychologist John Carroll in
| 1993.[1][2] It is based on a factor-analytic study of the
| correlation of individual-difference variables from data such
| as psychological tests, school marks and competence ratings
| from more than 460 datasets. These analyses suggested a
| three-layered model where each layer accounts for the
| variations in the correlations within the previous layer._
|
| > _The three layers (strata) are defined as representing
| narrow, broad, and general cognitive ability. The factors
| describe stable and observable differences among individuals
| in the performance of tasks. Carroll argues further that they
| are not mere artifacts of a mathematical process, but likely
| reflect physiological factors explaining differences in
| ability (e.g., nerve firing rates). This does not alter the
| effectiveness of factor scores in accounting for behavioral
| differences._
|
| There are multiple methods of studying neural topology and
| emergent cognitive processes, and their possibly
| hierarchically clusterable topology in feature space. What
| are some of the current developments in neural topology and
| feature clustering?
|
| Three-Stratum Theory > See also lists: CHC, g-factor, Fluid
| and crystallized intelligence, and g-VST (2005).
|
| CHC: Cattell-Horn-Carroll theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wi
| ki/Cattell%E2%80%93Horn%E2%80%93C...
|
| g-VPR (2005): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-VPR_model
|
| /? hierarchy of cognitive processes: https://www.google.com/s
| earch?q=hierarchy+of+cognitive+proce... https://scholar.googl
| e.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C43&q=hie...
|
| Neurodevelopmental framework for learning > Other learning
| frameworks references e.g. CHC and further developments in
| education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodevelopmental_f
| ramework_f...
|
| OTOH other factors to control for: postal code and school
| funding and teaching practices in those years,
|
| Compensatory education:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compensatory_education
|
| Remedial education > Research on outcomes:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remedial_education
|
| Learning styles:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles :
|
| > [...] _specific study strategies, unrelated to learning
| style, were positively correlated with final course
| grade.[46]
|
| Differentiated instruction:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiated_instruction :
|
| > _Teachers can differentiate in four ways: 1) through
| content, 2) process, 3) product, and 4) learning environment
| based on the individual learner. [7]*
|
| But FWIU none of these models of cognitive hierarchy or
| instruction are informed by newer developments in topological
| study of neural connectivity; from
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18218504 :
|
| > _According to "Cliques of Neurons Bound into Cavities
| Provide a Missing Link between Structure and Function" (2017)
| https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fncom.2017.0004.
| .. , the human brain appears to be [at most] 11-dimensional
| (11D); in terms of algebraic topology
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_topology _
| robblbobbl wrote:
| 100% true
| MasPlan wrote:
| Financial investment, nutrition and parental time investment have
| also shown significant impacts all forms of development
| (https://www.nominalnews.com/p/early-child-investment-
| child-t...). Discerning these impacts will always be difficult.
| Regardless, it appears that external factors do play a more an
| important role than maybe inherent ones.
| Andrex wrote:
| It's comforting to see the data bear Tabula Rasa out.
| LiquidPolymer wrote:
| I've been pondering this lately because of the dynamics of myself
| and my siblings. We did have a rough time growing up and my
| mother did the best she could in a bad situation. From a large
| gaggle of siblings and cousins, I am the only one who emerged
| into a middle class life with an interesting career. Poverty,
| addiction, and early death are the norm for my family.
|
| My mother was nurturing and supportive. She realized my potential
| and encouraged me the entire time. I help support her these days
| and I'm proud she lives well. We talk on the phone frequently
| about philosophy, religion, politics and more. She is lively and
| engaged. Yet my half brother and sister complain endlessly how
| their lives were ruined by our mother. They have very detailed
| stories of privation and emotional abuse. They are older yet we
| lived together growing up. I don't recognize any of the things
| they claim. Its like they lived a completely different life. My
| mother takes their criticism to heart and it hurts when they
| loudly make these claims.
|
| Yet, I must consider that my siblings seem emotionally stunted. I
| think this is genetic. At various times they both have demanded
| their "inheritance" early which is non-existent. My siblings fail
| the marshmallow test over and over again as adults. Any financial
| windfall is drained away immediately on frivolous items. I just
| found out my brother got a PPP loan somehow (he has zero
| employees) and spent the funds on a large van and a bunch of
| expensive guns. I'm guessing this will be eventually discovered
| and once again he will face dire consequences. (he just got his
| felony record expunged - hence the guns).
|
| I don't know what to make of this. I feel like an alien being
| whenever I see my siblings or cousins. I live in a house and
| still have my teeth. I don't smoke meth or fent. Their life
| decisions are a mystery to me.
| areoform wrote:
| Have you considered that you might have been the golden child
| and they weren't?
|
| People can cause great harm with the best of intentions.
| Especially when they are overwhelmed.
|
| Children who have been neglected end up having impaired
| emotional regulation in adulthood. You can view it as genetics,
| or see it as a lesson of what you could have been had you been
| born in different shoes.
|
| It isn't a satisfying conclusion or story, but it is what it
| is. What matters is picking up the pieces and moving on.
| oneepic wrote:
| Not an expert, but I believe the human brain uses some
| mechanisms to stay on the same track even if there are problems
| with that track. Practically, if something bad did happen to
| your siblings and it was memorable, it's possible they held on
| to it and lived as though their lives were predetermined from
| that. This means they are choosing to ignore your example and
| your mom's example.
|
| (edit: almost forgot, remember they are afraid of your mom and
| afraid of leaving their current state, contributes to them
| staying where they are)
| n_ary wrote:
| Well, I can vouch for your siblings' experience. Both me and my
| brother were raised by same parents but we turned out very
| different. I remember endless poverty, my parents fighting, lot
| of chaotic moments regarding my education progress and merits,
| being chastised for every little mistake and a lot of abusive
| parenting in guise of strictness and it had been so traumatic
| that I still suffer from panic attacks when I have waves of my
| childhood.
|
| My brother has an entirely different memory, loving and
| supportive nurturing parents, wealth and prosperity, very
| friendly parents who never fought, lots of social interactions,
| overall a good childhood.
|
| The thing is, when I was the only child, my father was rising
| out of poverty, I was born to a very underaged mother(she
| decided to keep my while my father wanted abortion), then my
| parents had extremely unrealistic expectations and wanted to
| raise me as the ideal model kid and unintentionally abusing me
| by following wrong parenting advises from wrong people because
| sadly children do not come with a user manual(my mom's joke).
| But once my brother came in the family, my father has achieved
| wealth and better understanding of parenting and was less
| stressed, so he and my mom took their lessons from my childhood
| and raised my brother correctly(imho).
|
| So, it is indeed possible to have entirely different childhood
| for siblings in the same house. Heck, when my brother was
| growing up, I still suffered some old strict parenting which
| was only limited to me because the dynamic was already there
| for me, but my brother was different.
|
| My so often realises these beahviors when we get together at my
| parent's place. My brother is sometimes surprised that, the
| parenting I received was something that he could never
| withstand and he is grateful that my parents did not repeat
| that, though sometimes he also claims that it could be
| different generation thing.
|
| That being said, I have no grudge against my parents, poverty
| can make people do weird things and parenting is hard. But yes,
| living on the same house under same parents, siblings can have
| polar opposite experience.
| gklitz wrote:
| > My siblings fail the marshmallow test over and over again as
| adults.
|
| The marshmallow test is one of those pseudo scientific things
| that fails to replicate. It's not actually a thing and has no
| proven correlation to anything of substance.
| anonym29 wrote:
| I'd fail the marshmallow test. It's one extra marshmallow I'm
| losing, who cares?
|
| Now, if it was $100,000/$200,000 instead of 1/2 marshmallows,
| the outcome would be completely different.
|
| Regardless of whether the stakes are trivial or immense, the
| amount of thought, deliberation, and care going into the
| decision will be at least correlated with the stakes, for me.
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| Raising children and watching others raise them, I compare
| notes in detail.
|
| I recently had an outing where I was the only "active" father.
| I had a dozen children begging for my attention. They were
| cutting in line to engage with me. Other fathers looked on.
| They all knew my tricks, jokes but I was the only one engaging.
|
| I do not hear about a father figure. Did you have one and they
| did not?
|
| I ask because while single moms may put in the effort the
| results are inconsistent. I had a mostly absent father but his
| direction and instruction kept me grounded. I didn't thrive
| until a new father figure encouraged me and helped me see my
| potential.
| begueradj wrote:
| This is similar to what I read in a book called "The Biology of
| Belief" by Bruce H. Lipton.
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