[HN Gopher] AltStore. The first Apple approved alternative App S...
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AltStore. The first Apple approved alternative App Store
Author : janandonly
Score : 122 points
Date : 2024-04-20 19:17 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (altstore.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (altstore.io)
| TheJoeMan wrote:
| Unfortunately paying Apple's extortion fee might provide ammo to
| legitimize it.
| talldayo wrote:
| Someone ends up paying Apple either way. On the App Store, that
| person usually ends up being the developer. With the new
| framework (stupid as it may be), developers can choose to
| externalize that cost to users and make an example of how
| ridiculous it is. With high-demand apps like emulators, it's
| easy to attract users and directly expose them to the limits
| Apple imposes on them. That's a great vehicle for change, and I
| fully expect Apple to backpedal on the Core Technology Fee once
| it attracts broader scrutiny.
|
| It makes perfect sense to me that paying $99/year for the App
| Store is cheaper than $0.50/install. But you shouldn't have to
| pay _anything_ to install Free Software in the first place, so
| I can also see why some people would consider protesting Apple
| 's policy to be invaluable.
| nazgu1 wrote:
| As far as I know to distribute app outside AppStore you need
| to notarize it, so you need to pay for developer account $99
| AND still $0.5 per install
| Aloisius wrote:
| Apple waves fees for non-profits (both developer annual fee
| and core technology fee), so at least qualifying free
| software organizations don't have to pay anything for either
| the app store or alt stores.
|
| https://developer.apple.com/support/fee-waiver/
| metalspoon wrote:
| That's a common misconception about free software. Free
| software is about the user's right to see and modify the
| software. Doesn't mean people can't do business with it.
| You're right that they usually don't require fee for
| installation, but that's merely because that the source code
| is available on the internet, in most cases, and so the user
| can install it without paying anyway.
| TillE wrote:
| I really can't imagine any circumstance where the European
| Commission is ok with Apple charging competitors for the
| privilege of competing with them, in a market explicitly
| mandated by the DMA.
|
| AltStore or Epic complying with Apple's current dubious terms
| makes no real difference.
| oreilles wrote:
| In Switzerland, Delta Emulator is not available in the App Store
| since Riley made it an AltStore exclusive in Europe. However, you
| cannot get AltStore either because Switzerland isn't part of the
| countries where Apple allows alternative stores:
| https://support.apple.com/fr-fr/118110#countries-and-regions.
| neonsunset wrote:
| Even reading the page is mildly infuriating because how far it
| goes to try to scare people away into using AppStore only.
|
| I have never seen a company resist a legislation with this much
| effort before.
| metalspoon wrote:
| What's more stupid is that I can't install my app to my
| phone. Because it's supposedly not secure according to Apple.
|
| Even more stupid is that if I pay the annual developer fee to
| Apple, they let me install it.
| neonsunset wrote:
| You can install without a fee through your own "debug
| locally" certificate but it expires fast, it's a clunky
| process...
| soziawa wrote:
| It is available for me in Switzerland. In fact, it's the number
| one app.
| mrbombastic wrote:
| Can't you get it through the world sideloading instructions? I
| haven't tried admittedly
| lapcat wrote:
| https://apps.apple.com/ch/app/delta-game-emulator/id10485246...
| dainiusse wrote:
| I agree it is cheap, but I want to at least try something without
| paying.
| cush wrote:
| It's probably important that consumers vote with their wallet
| here
| Hamuko wrote:
| I don't think they can offer you a trial option when Apple
| charges them by installs.
| rcarmo wrote:
| Unpopular opinion: I'm really not keen on Riley using Delta as a
| key driver to make EU folk pay for the AltStore. I'd much, much
| rather get it from the Apple App Store, just like everyone else
| on the planet--and I'd pay Eur 4.99 for it there, easy, just
| because I really don't want the hassle of dealing with another
| App Store.
| talldayo wrote:
| Well, now you can add it to the ever-expanding list of iOS apps
| you just can't use. No need to feel lonely about it though,
| there's a lot of great free apps that Android users are also
| locked-out of unless they flip the sideloading switch. Here are
| just a few: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/
| rcarmo wrote:
| Your comparison is pointless (I've been using F-Droid for
| almost a decade, and that's where I get most "serious"
| Android utilities today - like Termux and various UI tweaks I
| can't do without). I am fine with hacking Android (and
| running emulators on it) because I don't rely on it for work,
| IM, family or work stuff. It's just a sandbox for me.
|
| But I would have liked to have Delta (and paid for it) on
| iOS, because that's where I spend most of my time. I'll just
| wait until RetroArch (or someone else) ships on iOS.
| talldayo wrote:
| That's a shame. It's just free software, there should be no
| reason why you can't just put it on your phone if you have
| the code and want to approve it. Maybe Apple should re-
| draft the App Store conditions to better accommodate Free
| Software if this is the sort of business they'd like to
| attract. If not, oh well, it's only the users that have to
| suffer.
|
| > I'll just wait until RetroArch (or someone else) ships on
| iOS.
|
| You mean the App Store, right? Retroarch on iOS is
| practically as old as sideloading Delta at this point:
| https://docs.libretro.com/guides/install-ios/
| rcarmo wrote:
| You must be new to mobile, and Apple, and notarisation. I
| can build and install it myself, but even with a
| developer account it's a hassle. The key problem with iOS
| app distribution isn't alternate app stores--it's
| enabling end users to run their own apps on their own
| devices without timeouts or jumping through hoops, and
| nobody seems interested in fixing that.
| jorams wrote:
| The problems you talk about are deliberately created by
| Apple and only fixable by Apple. If you buy an iOS device
| you're opting in to whatever bullshit Apple comes up with
| that isn't explicitly regulated away, and when regulation
| is introduced Apple has made clear that they will do
| whatever they can to avoid complying with the spirit of
| said regulation.
|
| The creator of Delta is pushing the first regulation-
| protected route they have for distributing their app. You
| started this thread saying you wish they didn't.
|
| Dealing with notarization, timeouts, yearly developer
| account subscriptions, it's all terrible. The only hope
| to ever get away from it is to put up with as little of
| it as possible, which currently means an alternative app
| store. Or you can stop buying Apple devices.
| rcarmo wrote:
| I will stop buying Apple devices when there are quality
| alternatives, hardware and ecosystem-wise. Android is
| (still) neither at this point.
| fsflover wrote:
| Depending on what you mean by "quality alternatives",
| GNU/Linux phones exist. Sent from my Librem 5.
| talldayo wrote:
| Sounds like you're going to be in the business of
| fielding unpopular opinions for quite some time. I'm
| shocked that someone would shake their fist at the person
| developing code that you can go download right now[0] and
| not the business that prevents your phone from using it.
| If this is your sincere opinion, you either misunderstand
| the situation or expect to have your cake and eat it too.
|
| [0] https://github.com/rileytestut/Delta
| greenavocado wrote:
| Sideloading switch on Android? You install F-Droid and then
| install whatever you want from F-Droid. I'm assuming you mean
| the "install application from unknown source" pop-up when you
| open the F-Droid apk from your downloads folder. This is
| NOTHING compared to the hoops Apple users have to jump
| through to install third party software.
| hx833001 wrote:
| Yeah that's too bad since it's free everywhere else in the
| world on the App Store.
| quotemstr wrote:
| What specific apps might this app store distribute that Apple's
| won't? Apple's insistent that third party app stores enforce
| Apple's content restrictions IMHO defeats the purpose of the
| third party app store mechanism.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| Apple changed the rule to allow Gameboy emulators on the App
| Store days before the Alt Store went live. So even if you don't
| install the Alt Store, that's already a benefit for everyone.
|
| Competition is a good thing.
| mateus1 wrote:
| Can someone give me examples of good apps other than emulators?
| fwn wrote:
| I think by design of the ecosystem it makes the most sense for
| apps that can't be on the main store.
|
| That would be emulators, uncensored social media, probably apps
| that do not meet the NSFW policy of the App Store... that kind
| of thing.
|
| I'm not sure we'll see user-enabling apps for proprietary
| services like newpipe, because it's still a store, so corporate
| censorship is to be expected. In that sense, it is far inferior
| to a true, no store, side-loading ability like on Android,
| where you can freely install any application you want.
|
| I've managed to get almost all my apps (sans Google apps and
| banking) to autoupdate through Obtainium on Android. It really
| feels like the future.
| Aloisius wrote:
| Apple requires Alt stores only distribute apps suitable for
| all audiences (age 4+), so NSFW is out.
| ssbash wrote:
| Yattee, an alternative to NewPipe, has been available on the
| AppStore for over a year. Well before there was any pressure
| from the DMA.
| https://apps.apple.com/us/app/yattee/id1595136629
| fwn wrote:
| Yattee is a good example for what Apple puts those
| developers through. Here is a direct quote from their
| website:
|
| > Apple keeps rejecting macOS version of Yattee for several
| unrelated and random reasons. As I believe the App Store
| approval process is random and getting approval depends
| mostly on whether the reviewer has had a nice day, I keep
| resubmitting macOS versions with every update so maybe we
| will get lucky one day.
|
| https://github.com/yattee/yattee/wiki/FAQ
| stefan_ wrote:
| The app also has obscure and incomplete features & UI
| purely to comply with Apple guidelines (or trick human
| reviewers paid beans into not actually realizing what the
| app is).
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| It seems like one of the major categories should be free
| software apps that Apple won't put in the store because of
| the license, e.g. GPL. Can alternate stores distribute those
| on iOS?
| metalspoon wrote:
| It's about the stupid fees for Apple, iirc. So, they'll arrive
| in the end. Just not now.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| Apple must be delighted to see this.. Because it's an awful UX
| matthewtse wrote:
| yes, quite a few hoops to jump through to get something
| working.
|
| Back in the day, I went through massive effort to jailbreak my
| iPhone, void the warranty, and use the Cydia app store (amazing
| that this whole community operated for free).
|
| But slowly the vanilla iPhone experience got good enough that I
| didn't need to jailbreak anymore, or at least it wasn't worth
| the effort. And the community died down as well.
|
| Interesting to see the resurgence of a similar concept.
| aranelsurion wrote:
| I guess community of it died also because of how
| difficult/rare jailbreaks got, with some significant time of
| droughts between jailbreaks. Also jailbreaks had too many
| downsides; some apps would be too invasive, crash the
| Springboard, some secure apps (bank etc) wouldn't run, iirc
| updates weren't possible or hard to do, "tethered" jailbreaks
| required restoring them each time you reboot etc. etc. Too
| much day-to-day fighting against the system at the end.
|
| Alternative stores OTOH have a lot more promise, if Apple
| can't manage to kill them through malicious compliance. They
| have a lower barrier of entry, and most downsides of JB don't
| apply either.
| Zambyte wrote:
| Awful UX relative to the Appstore? How so?
| quietfox wrote:
| I subscribed some days ago, but still can't get the download to
| work, even in Safari as suggested.
| aranelsurion wrote:
| I had an issue with the Download button not working the first
| time as well. The solution was to go back to AltStore homepage,
| click and go through the checkout process again, at some point
| it says you already are subscribed and instead of charging you
| again takes you to the download page, where this time the
| button works.
|
| At least that's what happened for me, worth a try.
| KomoD wrote:
| How many apps are there?
| aranelsurion wrote:
| Two. Delta the emulator, and a clipboard manager.
|
| I assume there will be a few more soon, though Apple still
| pushes for notarization and such, making things difficult for
| the lone hacker developing for fun. So I don't expect as many
| apps as once cydia had.
|
| It's pretty cool that I can play Chrono Trigger and Pokemon
| FireRed Rocket Edition on the go though :) I'd love to see Epic
| bringing Fortnite to AltStore out of spite. :D
| Hamuko wrote:
| Is it not possible to add sources to the PAL store?
| _djo_ wrote:
| Epic has already announced they'll be launching the Epic
| Games Store on iOS later this year.
|
| https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/epicgamessweden
|
| https://twitter.com/epicgames/status/1770500825166545305
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| If an alternate store can have a game emulator, could it also
| have e.g. an Android app emulator, which in turn could run
| Android app "ROMs" that aren't individually notarized?
| doctorwhat wrote:
| The contrast of text and background is really really bad for the
| muted text. Accessibility related changes would be most welcome.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| What does "Apple approved" mean? I know Apple has heavy handed
| curation, for example requiring various forms of moderation /
| censorship of social media apps. Can these stores offer whatever
| they want?
|
| Also what's with that fee? Why aren't phones forced to operate
| like traditional operating systems? Apple shouldn't be allowed to
| charge fees for people to install software on devices they own.
| sixothree wrote:
| Knowing Apple I'd personally be concerned about retribution
| from them. I feel like something else completely unrelated on
| my device will stop functioning because I'm a user of the app
| store.
| switch007 wrote:
| But you'll never be able to prove it
|
| Like my iPhone 12 getting slower and worse battery with each
| iOS release even with a new battery...
| apantel wrote:
| Yeah you can't update these phones. Things just degrade if
| you do. Happily running iOS 15 on my iPhone 12.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| That's strange. I'm on iOS 17 on my iPhone 11 Pro and
| it's just fine. Maybe the battery issues mentioned are
| due to normal degradation?
| teekert wrote:
| I don't feel like my iPhone 12 mini is slow with 17.4? I
| guess it doesn't make sense t argue about subjective
| experiences but I just wanted add a some anecdata.
|
| Battery feels just fine (over a day, that is with
| Tailscale turned off [did get better some updates ago.])
| SpaghettiCthulu wrote:
| Do older versions of iOS still receive security patches?
| aranelsurion wrote:
| I'm no expert on the matter, but this is what Apple says:
|
| > All apps listed on alternative app marketplaces are submitted
| to a Notarization process with Apple. Notarization is a
| baseline review that applies to all apps, regardless of their
| distribution channel, focused on platform policies for security
| and privacy and to maintain device integrity. Through a
| combination of automated checks and human review, Notarization
| helps ensure apps are free of known malware, viruses, or other
| security threats, function as promised, and don't expose users
| to egregious fraud. Apple does not enforce the App Store's high
| standards for business practices and content on apps
| distributed through alternative app marketplaces.
|
| So what I understand is that it's a baseline check for
| security, technical issues etc. Content moderation doesn't seem
| to be a part of it.
| metalspoon wrote:
| Fuck Apple, I never need their check. I'm not a grandma.
| orf wrote:
| Sure you did, even indirectly: would iOS still be around
| now if every grandma got their money stolen through iOS
| malware?
| fsflover wrote:
| Did it happen with Android yet?
| Aloisius wrote:
| > Why aren't phones forced to operate like traditional
| operating systems?
|
| They are operating like traditional operating systems, namely
| like game consoles where paying royalties to OS makers for
| distributing software has been a thing since the
| Atari/Activision settlement in 1980.
| drooby wrote:
| Is it me or is the copy on this website terrible? And probably
| super confusing to laymen.
| hcks wrote:
| Can't wait to have to download 20 different marketplaces with UX
| all uglier than the last
| idle_zealot wrote:
| The App Store sets a pretty low bar.
| 1over137 wrote:
| Seems this requires an AppleID. So is there no way to sideload
| without one?
| saagarjha wrote:
| No.
| 1over137 wrote:
| Darn. For me at least, half the point is to be more anonymous
| from Apple.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| [dupe]
|
| More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40067556
| worldmerge wrote:
| How can I trick my USA based iphone to think it's based in Europe
| to access these app stores?
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