[HN Gopher] Does light have an infinite lifetime?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Does light have an infinite lifetime?
        
       Author : robertn702
       Score  : 88 points
       Date   : 2024-04-19 17:15 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (bigthink.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (bigthink.com)
        
       | gwern wrote:
       | Interesting. I had no idea that the universe would eventually be
       | basically just photons. I wonder if that is why Stephen Baxter
       | had his 'photino birds' as the final form of life in his
       | Xeeleverse?
        
         | mensetmanusman wrote:
         | There is some debate whether this is knowable, some particles
         | are not believed to decay into light at a rate faster than
         | their spontaneous creation from light. (And humanity wont be
         | around to check).
        
         | barfbagginus wrote:
         | The photino birds want the universe to be populated with white
         | dwarfs, because they can feed off their gravity wells without
         | the risk of deadly supernovas and black holes, which can kill
         | them.
         | 
         | After the xelee and humans leave, the universe becomes a cold
         | place dominated by photino birds living in the cold pinpricks
         | of white dwarfs. Eventually matter evaporates into photons, and
         | the photino birds die.
         | 
         | However, it turns out photino birds can always just time travel
         | to a time when the universe still had matter. So they're more
         | or less indifferent to the eventual heat death .
         | 
         | See: https://xeelee.fandom.com/wiki/Photino_Birds
         | 
         | I hypothesize that there is may be only one photino bird. When
         | it appears to die, it is just traveling to another time. When
         | we see multiple photino birds, we're just looking at different
         | segments of the same bird's world line. These are my own
         | speculations, inspired by Wheeler's idea that the universe has
         | only one electron, which travels back in time as a positron,
         | and interacts with itself so many times that it creates the
         | observable universe of matter:
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
        
           | codyd51 wrote:
           | One potential hiccup with your one-photino-bird-universe
           | theory (which is quite fun!): I believe I remember a scene in
           | which the 'birth' of a photino bird was described. If I
           | remember correctly, it was indeed described as a clone of its
           | parent.
        
             | kloop wrote:
             | As long as we only see one birth, that's probably fine. It
             | just implies a stable time loop.
        
         | cwillu wrote:
         | I believe proton decay is still considered hypothetical, and
         | the electron is pretty confidently believed to be stable;
         | https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-ph...
         | is a good overview.
        
           | ars wrote:
           | If protons do decay, their decay product would include a
           | positron that would in turn annihilate with the electron.
           | Leaving a universe with just photons and neutrinos.
           | 
           | If neutrinos are their own antiparticle then they could react
           | with each other and produce ??? Not sure, because you would
           | have to find out of the lepton number is conserved.
        
           | A_D_E_P_T wrote:
           | > I believe proton decay is still considered hypothetical
           | 
           | Definitely.
           | 
           | > [link] is a good overview
           | 
           | That overview seems to overstate the likelihood of proton
           | decay. In fact, it has it backwards. The default position is
           | that protons are stable, per the standard model, not that
           | they're susceptible to decay.
        
             | jessriedel wrote:
             | > The default position is that protons are stable, per the
             | standard model, not that they're susceptible to decay.
             | 
             | It's only the "default" in the sense that the simplest
             | model explaining data gathered to date (the standard model)
             | predicts no decay. However, most physicist do not believe
             | the standard model is the last word (and surely it cannot
             | be when you go to the Planck scale), and many models post-
             | SM models predict proton decay. I would guess if you
             | surveyed high energy physicists, you'd find the majority
             | expect the proton does in fact decay, so it's the "default"
             | in that sense.
        
         | zem wrote:
         | a truly beautiful exploration of that idea is landis's "the
         | melancholy of infinite space":
         | http://www.geoffreylandis.com/infinite.htp
        
         | prettydeep wrote:
         | Roger Penrose has a theory about a cyclical conformal universe,
         | which requires that the universe eventually only contains
         | photons. As photons travel at the speed of light, they do not
         | experience the passage of time, so they also do not experience
         | distance (space). So in the deep remote future, when only
         | photons are left, the difference between the very large and
         | miniscule disappears, and you get all photons in the universe
         | existing at the same point at the same time, which causes a new
         | big bang. At least, that is Penrose's theory. I believe they
         | found some evidence in the CMB supporting it.
        
           | AlexAndScripts wrote:
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology
           | 
           | It seems the paper made mistakes, using a non-standard model
           | of the CMB that failed upon replication. It's an interesting
           | theory thoughb.
        
           | Kranar wrote:
           | This is some absolutely crazy idea. I mean I'm in no position
           | to analyze it critically but that is pretty mind blowing.
        
       | colechristensen wrote:
       | Huh? Light has zero lifetime, along with all massless particles.
       | When you travel at _c_ your clock doesn't tick. From the
       | viewpoint of a photon it is emitted and absorbed at the same
       | instant. You cannot decay if you don't experience time. I'm not
       | sure exactly how index of refraction works with this.
        
         | Nevermark wrote:
         | > You cannot decay if you don't experience time.
         | 
         | Interesting take! But if photons couldn't decay due to not
         | experiencing time, they couldn't do anything else either.
         | 
         | The reality is that a photons creation and destruction are not
         | prohibited, but simply "experienced" as two events at different
         | locations at the same time, with the photon being the "thing"
         | that connects those events.
         | 
         | Given that interpretation, it might be reasonable to assume
         | that all photons have beginnings and ends, regardless of the
         | duration we perceive between them, or they wouldn't exist.
         | 
         | Time being no barrier at all for photons.
        
           | supportengineer wrote:
           | Would that seem like a fold in spacetime to the photon?
        
             | nick7376182 wrote:
             | Probably more like a summer breeze
        
             | Nevermark wrote:
             | I can't top the sibling comment about a summer breeze! But
             | it is an interesting question.
             | 
             | Not only does the photon not experience any delay between
             | its two end points, but it experiences its path between
             | them as a simple shortest-distance straight line segment,
             | even if the same path looks like a curve through
             | gravitationally warped space-time to us.
             | 
             | The photon does experience a form of distance, i.e. the
             | number of wave lengths between its ends. But just the
             | number of cycles, not the actual wave lengths which we
             | would see varying as we experienced dark energy and space
             | stretching the photon's wavelength from our viewpoint.
             | 
             | So a photon "experiences" two spacially separated ends, and
             | a number of wave cycles between them, and that's it?
             | Perhaps.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | >But if photons couldn't decay due to not experiencing time,
           | they couldn't do anything else either.
           | 
           | I mean we are jumping way out of the classical behavior that
           | objects like you and I exist in. To the photon itself is a
           | timeless object. It 'moves' in a null geodesic where _t_ =0.
           | Attempting to apply any classical behavior that occurs in
           | time-like objects just isn't going to work when applying them
           | to massless light-like objects.
        
           | nyrikki wrote:
           | From a photons perspective, emition and absorption are
           | simultaneous.
           | 
           | While from our perspective it is a form of causal connection,
           | that is mearly due to the frame of reference.
           | 
           | While we can infer the connection between each, it is
           | possibly better to consider the speed of light as the speed
           | of causality.
           | 
           | But as there are no privileged reference frames under GR the
           | choice is yours.
           | 
           | But from the photons perspective, it doesn't experience time
           | at all so it can't be a barrier.
           | 
           | But don't confuse the map for the territory. GR is a model,
           | not the system itself.
           | 
           | The fact that almost every test we can figure out has only
           | confirmed it doesn't change that.
           | 
           | Under the 'all models are wrong but some are useful' idea, in
           | GR photons not experiencing time is important to that model.
        
         | ryandamm wrote:
         | Hoping a physicist can correct me here, but... I believe index
         | of refraction is a function of the photon being absorbed and
         | reemitted by the electrons in the dielectric material, so it's
         | no longer correct to think of a photon moving at a fraction of
         | the speed of light inside the material, it's more like a
         | churning series of them being created (always moving at c) but
         | constantly being absorbed and canceling each other out.
         | 
         | I also seem to recall that the speed of light below c is
         | actually the group velocity, and each individual photon still
         | would move at c. I'm also not entirely sure if photons can be
         | said to exist except at creation and absorption; isn't a photon
         | a phenomenon best described by particle interactions, and
         | moving through free space it's more correctly described as a
         | field? Genuine question, though I somehow doubt I'd understand
         | any good elaboration.
         | 
         | IANAPhysicist, though. I just play with light recreationally.
        
           | Modified3019 wrote:
           | For those curious about what the above poster is talking
           | about, here's a well done video explaining the topic of the
           | apparent changes of light's "speed" through materials
           | 
           | 3Blue1Brown - But why would light "slow down"? | Optics
           | puzzles 3: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KTzGBJPuJwM
        
         | amluto wrote:
         | I think this is sort of besides the point. If you build a box,
         | paint the walls black, and put a flashlight in the box, then
         | the photons coming from the flashlight are shorter lived than
         | if you shine the flashlight into the sky on a cloudless day or
         | night. Not shorter lived from their own perspective -- shorter
         | lived from an outside observer's perspective. Sure, one could
         | quibble about the choice of observer, but you would he hard-
         | pressed to put an observer in the box who thinks the photons
         | last very long.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | Why is the speed of causality beside the point?
           | 
           | lets take two magical particles that have clocks on it. One
           | is a photon and the other is a neutrino. I send these off
           | towards you in a perfect vacuum. When you receive these
           | particles the clock on the photon will be 0. It will be be
           | the exact same photon that left my emitter, it will not have
           | changed in any way as it did not interact with anything along
           | the way. And as long as you are not moving relative to me,
           | you'll perceive the photon as the same color/wavelength I
           | emitted it at.
           | 
           | Meanwhile that neutrino will arrive billions of a second
           | later (well depending on our distance) and will have
           | oscallated at least trillions of times if not far more. The
           | clock on the neutrino will have ticked the difference between
           | the photon arrival to the neutrino arrival.
           | 
           | Don't apply classical behavior to light-like objects. They
           | play be different sets of rules.
        
             | amluto wrote:
             | This is all true, but the article isn't about how long a
             | photon thinks it lives or how much it experiences the
             | passage of tone. It's about whether the photon keeps going
             | forever from the perspective of someone approximately at
             | rest [0] in the universe (like astronomers on Earth!).
             | 
             | [0] General relativity has no preferred "at rest" frame,
             | but the generally accepted FLRW model of the universe does.
             | You can be at rest with respect to the universe, or you can
             | be moving. If you are moving, distant objects in front of
             | you will appear blue-shifted on average as compared to
             | distant objects behind you.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | But if your clock doesn't tick, then infinite lifetime means
         | the same as zero lifetime.
         | 
         | From the point of view of the photon, time doesn't even exist.
         | So it is pointless to ask the question from the point of view
         | of the photon.
        
         | adrian_b wrote:
         | From the point of view of any observer, a photon has a definite
         | lifetime, between the moments of its emission and its
         | absorption.
         | 
         | The Lorentz transformations are defined only between reference
         | systems where the relative speed between them is less than the
         | speed of light.
         | 
         | It is not possible to attach a reference system to a photon or
         | to any other particle that moves with the speed of light,
         | because there are no conversion rules between the coordinates
         | in such a system and those in a normal reference system.
         | 
         | Therefore it is not correct to say that the lifetime of a
         | photon in a reference system attached to it is zero or infinite
         | or it has any other value.
         | 
         | This lifetime is just undefined, while the lifetimes in any
         | other reference systems are well defined.
         | 
         | The photon does not decay in the absence of interactions with
         | other particles because that would violate several conservation
         | laws. However, when the photons have energies that are high
         | enough, the interaction between themselves can generate other
         | particles, in particle-antiparticle pairs, in order to satisfy
         | all conservation laws.
        
           | akira2501 wrote:
           | If it's travelling at c then isn't the length contraction
           | infinite? Or is that dependent on Lorentz transformations as
           | well?
        
             | adrian_b wrote:
             | Length contraction and time dilation are words that
             | describe changes that are the consequence of a Lorentz
             | transformation.
             | 
             | Like I have said, the formulae of a Lorentz transformation
             | are defined only when the relative velocity between the two
             | systems is less than the speed of light.
             | 
             | Attempting to pass to a limit when the relative speed
             | approaches the speed of light does not produce any useful
             | result, because at the limit you no longer obtain a
             | reference system, so you no longer get a transformation
             | between reference systems.
             | 
             | Without a reference system, there is no meaning for the
             | concepts of distance and time.
             | 
             | Any reference system for the 4-dimensional space-time must
             | be attached to normal matter made of leptons and quarks, it
             | cannot be attached to photons. In any reference system for
             | the 4-dimensional space-time, the photons are particles
             | that move with equal speeds in space and in time, while the
             | normal matter moves faster in time than in space. The
             | notion of proper time (i.e. the time measured for an object
             | that moves only in time, without moving in space) is not
             | defined for photons, because they always also move in
             | space, not only in time.
             | 
             | This should be obvious from the rule introduced by Einstein
             | that the speed of light is the same in all possible
             | reference systems, from which the Lorentz transformations
             | can be deduced. If a reference system were attached to a
             | photon, in that reference system the speed of light could
             | not have the same value as in the normal reference systems,
             | so within Einstein's theory such a reference system cannot
             | exist.
        
             | animatethrow wrote:
             | Consider a simpler example from basic math. Is 1/x infinite
             | when x==0? The answer is that 1/x is _undefined_ when x==0.
             | In calculus one can take limits as x  "approaches" 0 but
             | x==0 is still undefined. Likewise, the Lorentz length
             | contraction is _undefined_ when traveling at c.
        
         | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
         | I wish people would stop repeating this.
         | 
         | If light is emitted and absorbed at the same instant, how does
         | it know when/where in spacetime it's been emitted and absorbed?
         | 
         | You _cannot_ apply SR to light in this naive way. SR works just
         | fine for anything with mass, but without a theory of quantum
         | gravity no one has the first clue how massless particles
         | operate in spacetime, or what they do or don 't "experience."
        
         | bequanna wrote:
         | Right, but doesn't light travel at less than c in some
         | situations (passing through glass, etc)? Would we say they
         | experience "time" in those cases?
        
           | samus wrote:
           | In these situation photons are either bouncing off matter or
           | are getting absorbed and emitted by matter. In the former
           | case they don't travel a straight path, in the latter case
           | there is a short time lag between absorption and emission.
        
         | kmm wrote:
         | > You cannot decay if you don't experience time
         | 
         | That's a common misconception, there's no a priori reason a
         | particle without a restframe can't decay. For all known
         | particles with a finite lifetime we give this lifetime as
         | measured in its restframe (i.e. with the particle standing
         | still), but in principle it is an observer-dependent quantity,
         | faster moving particles will take longer to decay. If we, for
         | example, assume the lifetime of a massless particle is
         | proportional to its energy, we retain the same expected Lorentz
         | covariance.
         | 
         | Of course, if you actually go through the math, the known
         | massless particles in our universe, photons and gluons, turn
         | out to be stable.[1]
         | 
         | 1: https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9508018
        
       | barfbagginus wrote:
       | I feel like this article could be condensed into a simple answer.
       | I got tto annoyed looking for it to find more than the answer,
       | "yes, if the standard model holds"
       | 
       | So at the risk of venting unconstructively, I wish I had a way of
       | screening physics writing that is not a physics paper. Articles
       | like this are frustrating because they only have one or two
       | interesting tidbits for me, but they hide them in a whole lot of
       | highschool level hand waving.
       | 
       | Honestly HN would be perfect if it only allowed physics papers -
       | no pop-physics - and if it banned any blogs or news sites with
       | paywalls or newsletter nagware (looking at you, medium, new york
       | times).
       | 
       | Alas. I'm wishing for something I will have to build if I really
       | want it.
        
       | cwoolfe wrote:
       | "God is light." (1John 1:5)
        
         | pc86 wrote:
         | Do you have something constructive to add related to the
         | content of the article or are we just quoting random bible
         | verses on HN for no reason?
        
           | ClarityJones wrote:
           | It wasn't exactly random. The topic of the article is that
           | light is eternal, and the commenter shared a quote from over
           | a thousand years ago stating the same thing. So, the idea of
           | light having an infinite lifetime is apparently not new...
           | even if the mechanics of light are better understood these
           | days.
        
             | xyzelement wrote:
             | This is in line for me with the moment of "creation." For
             | most of the history of science as a thing, the scientific
             | view held that the universe was infinitely old cosmos
             | without a beginning or end. The greek model. It was only in
             | 1900s that big bang was theorized (by a catholic priest)
             | that science now views that there was a moment before which
             | the universe didn't exist and after which it did.
             | 
             | The fact that someone reading Genesis would have had a more
             | accurate conception of the origin of the universe, prior to
             | big bang becoming popularized _very recently in the grand
             | scheme of things_ is noteworthy.
        
           | cwoolfe wrote:
           | "The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never
           | extinguish it.
           | 
           | God sent a man, John the Baptist, to tell about the light so
           | that everyone might believe because of his testimony. John
           | himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell
           | about the light. The one who is the true light, who gives
           | light to everyone, was coming into the world.
           | 
           | He came into the very world he created, but the world didn't
           | recognize him. He came to his own people, and even they
           | rejected him. But to all who believed him and accepted him,
           | he gave the right to become children of God."(John 1:5-12)
        
         | xyzelement wrote:
         | Genesis 1:3 has: "And G-d said, Let there be light, and there
         | was light[0]." This says on the literal level that light is a
         | created thing distinct from G-d, and thus finite (though
         | created very close to the creation of the universe itself, on
         | day 1).
         | 
         | To be clear, light is a very common metaphor for G-dliness in
         | Judaism and the quote from John resonates as a perfectly fine
         | metaphor, rather than a literal assertion of equivalence.
         | 
         | [0] "vayo'mer elohiym y@hiyvor vay@hiyvor"
        
       | akomtu wrote:
       | Isn't it a meaningless question? Photons aren't things, but
       | loosely localized areas of motion energy that's temporarily
       | assumed the shape of a photon. Upon collision with other similar
       | waves, it may change shape and become another partickey like an
       | electron. But the light itself is a motion itself, which is a
       | pure abstraction. At the end of the universe, photons probably
       | will keep spreading over larger and larger areas, slowly turning
       | into a uniform sea of that pure motion.
        
       | doodlebugging wrote:
       | Where do the photons that hit my retina go when I finish with
       | them?
       | 
       | If they have infinite lifetimes then does each one carry a memory
       | of it's creation event? When I burn a log in my fireplace and a
       | cinder flares and pops creating a spark, does the photon exist
       | after the spark energy flares out and the cinder is no longer
       | illuminated enough to be detected by my eyes?
       | 
       | If photons are infinite then harvesting light would be the first
       | step in deciphering the complete history of the universe. All
       | that would be left for us to do would be to derive the algorithms
       | to unravel and categorize each photon into discrete groups based
       | on their historical particle paths.
       | 
       | If we wanted to harvest light to test whether photons have
       | infinite lifetimes we would need to design a structure that forms
       | a light trap using materials with different refractive indices so
       | that photons entering are forced onto paths from which they
       | perfectly reflect in a lossless manner.
       | 
       | If photons are infinite then mirrors may have a memory if we can
       | trap and monitor the photons that pass through them and force
       | them to unravel their travel paths. Why can't I step in front of
       | the mirror and have it replay every event that the mirror has
       | seen? It would be a better replacement for photo or video
       | mementos of lost loved ones if we could simply take the mirrors
       | from their homes and spin back to watch their happiest moments
       | forever by reconstructing the photon impingement history of the
       | glass and mirror substrate.
        
         | adonovan wrote:
         | Feynmann is very clear that the photons bouncing off a mirror
         | are not the same ones that hit it. They are absorbed by
         | electric oscillators (free electrons in the material) and
         | destroyed; then new ones are created and emitted.
         | 
         | He's also careful enough to point out that electrons don't
         | really have an identity that would allow you to meaningfully
         | define "not the same". :)
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | Electrons? We were just told that there is only one single
           | electron in yesterday's posts. It's almost like they don't
           | know what an electron _is_
        
             | doodlebugging wrote:
             | I believe they're right about there being only one single
             | electron. I tried to start my Pathfinder yesterday and it
             | was dead as a doornail. None of the dash lights lit and
             | there was not even a click from the starter. Someone else
             | must've been using that electron though since I tried again
             | a few minutes later and it cranked right up. I had my turn
             | with it so I'm not mad at all.
        
               | westmeal wrote:
               | Um maybe check your battery terminals for corrosion :)
        
               | doodlebugging wrote:
               | I covered all those bases. I'm not 100% sure what
               | happened but when I initially tried to start the vehicle
               | I had it connected to a solar battery maintainer in full
               | sunlight. It should've had bazillions of photons
               | sacrificing part of themselves to be stored electrons but
               | instead I got nothing. After disconnecting that from the
               | battery and testing all the fuses I made another attempt
               | to start it up and it worked fine. It's possible that the
               | voltage output of the panel swamped the voltage expected
               | by the ECU and it refused to energize to save the system
               | from electrical damage by overvoltage.
               | 
               | Or maybe that single electron hadn't quite made it to my
               | battery on my first attempt. That's one busy e.
        
               | westmeal wrote:
               | I find pouring electrons into a funnel usually helps by
               | avoiding an electron spill all over your battery. Glad it
               | works tho!
        
             | mmmBacon wrote:
             | It's a true statement that _they_ don't know what the
             | electron is. In the standard model the electron is a point
             | particle with no volume.
        
           | AgentME wrote:
           | Electrons aren't unique in not having identities. Photons of
           | the same wavelength are similarly fungible if I remember
           | right, though it's a little more defensible to call the
           | reflected light not the same photons since the original
           | photons are transformed to something we don't call photons
           | before photons are produced again.
        
             | doodlebugging wrote:
             | But at a reflection event you aren't producing a new
             | photon, you are only reflecting a portion of the original
             | determined by the refractive indices of the reflection
             | interface. At that interface, part of the original photon
             | is reflected and the rest is transmitted across the
             | interface as a new photon and both have a modified
             | bandwidth relative to the parent photon. So the one you see
             | reflected is the same photon after modification by the
             | medium it traversed and the transmitted components escape
             | your view unless you are monitoring the other side of the
             | medium.
        
               | wizzwizz4 wrote:
               | That would imply a frequency shift, which clearly doesn't
               | happen (mirrors don't redshift the light that hits them).
        
               | ASalazarMX wrote:
               | I balked at that too, because infinite mirrors and mirror
               | houses also don't show any wavelenght shift no matter how
               | many reflections they do. They do change perceived
               | amplitude, as no mirror is perfectly reflective.
        
               | mmmBacon wrote:
               | A photon is indivisible that's the quantum nature of
               | light. You aren't reflecting a part of it. To do so is a
               | classical wave interpretation of light. The photon after
               | reflection is not the same photon.
        
           | doodlebugging wrote:
           | I wonder about the all the photons lost in fiber optic
           | installations. What happens to them in their short lives?
           | There must be a creation and an extinction event.
           | 
           | A photon jumps into the glass fiber and travels until it
           | encounters an opto-electric coupler where the photon craps
           | out and is converted to an energized stream of electrons, or
           | maybe it borrows the only real electron in the universe for
           | an instant as it flips across the coupler to the next glass
           | fiber where a new photon is born, only to flare out at the
           | next junction.
        
             | lolc wrote:
             | My understanding is that photons don't have a life the way
             | we do. They move at the speed of light and thus time does
             | not advance for them. They cannot change between emission
             | and absorption, no matter the distance. Always bends my
             | mind to think about it.
        
               | rvbissell wrote:
               | > They move at the speed of light and thus time does not
               | advance for them.
               | 
               | Isn't it more accurate to say that photons move at the
               | speed of _causality_ , when the medium is a pure vacuum?
               | Because in some other medium like glass, the speed of
               | light is slower than the speed of causality.
               | 
               | So my follow-up question is: do slower photons (such as
               | those propagating through a fiber-optic strand, or water)
               | then experience the advancement of time?
        
               | Kranar wrote:
               | There is no such thing as slow photons, photons always
               | travel at the speed of light.
               | 
               | When light enters a medium there are two mostly (but not
               | entirely) equal ways to think about what happens, one is
               | to view light as a purely electromagnetic wave that
               | interacts with atoms and causes the atoms to oscillate.
               | This oscillation produces its own electromagnetic wave
               | that interferes with the original wave. The result of
               | this interference will be an electromagnetic wave with
               | the same frequency, same amplitude, and travelling in the
               | same direction as the incoming light but shifted
               | backwards and it's that shift backwards that gives the
               | appearance of light slowing down.
               | 
               | That explanation is pretty good and accounts for almost
               | everything except for the latency of light through a
               | medium.
               | 
               | If that's what you want to model, then it's better to
               | think of light as made up of photons instead of being a
               | wave, and then when photons enter a material they no
               | longer exist as independent particles but through a
               | process of absorption and reemission by electrons in the
               | material become particles called polaritons. Polaritons
               | do have mass and hence travel slower than the speed of
               | light.
               | 
               | Neither of these explanations are perfect, but the full
               | explanation is ridiculously complicated and there's no
               | suitable metaphor for it. If you are interested in
               | knowing the edge latency of light through a medium, then
               | the polariton explanation is appropriate. If you want to
               | know the "bandwidth" explanation of light through a
               | medium, then the wave explanation is appropriate.
        
               | Kranar wrote:
               | Almost everything you said is correct. Photons do not
               | have a reference frame, so time does not advance because
               | for a photon there is no time coordinate system in the
               | first place. It's not simply that photons don't
               | experience time, it's that time and space don't exist for
               | photons.
               | 
               | >They cannot change between emission and absorption, no
               | matter the distance.
               | 
               | From the point of view of a photon, neither time or space
               | exist. They have no reference frame at all. However, from
               | an outside frame of reference that is travelling less
               | than the speed of light, photons do change for example
               | they get red shifted as they move through stronger
               | gravitational fields.
        
           | nullserver wrote:
           | It could be the same electron after all. Although probably
           | not.
           | 
           | One electron theory.
           | https://youtu.be/9dqtW9MslFk?si=qdWGUyJnDRCOns9F
        
         | DennisP wrote:
         | If you haven't yet, you should definitely read the famous
         | little scifi story _Light of Other Days_.
         | 
         | Full text:
         | https://www.physics.utoronto.ca/~jharlow/slowglass.htm
        
       | holoduke wrote:
       | Since there is no time from the perspective of a photon, there is
       | only one photon everywhere at anytime. Our perception of multiple
       | photons is incorrect. Its just multiple timelines with the same
       | photon.
        
       | urbandw311er wrote:
       | Anybody care to attempt a TL;DR of this?
        
       | henry2023 wrote:
       | From the perspective of a photon, there is no such thing as time.
       | It's emitted, and might exist for hundreds of trillions of years,
       | but for the photon, there's zero time elapsed between when it's
       | emitted and when it's absorbed again. It doesn't experience
       | distance either.
        
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