[HN Gopher] Robotic arms that assemble panels on solar farms
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Robotic arms that assemble panels on solar farms
Hey HN! We're a YC-backed company building robots that build solar
farms. We recently completed the first commercial deployment of our
system, and this is one of the first articles about it. Here's a
teaser video we put together too, if you're curious to see some
more shots of the system in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ2fP1Y5Z2E
Author : justicz
Score : 83 points
Date : 2024-04-19 15:48 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fastcompany.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fastcompany.com)
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Launch HN: Charge Robotics (YC S21) - Robots that build solar
| farms_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30780455 - March
| 2022 (81 comments)
| philipkglass wrote:
| Modules for solar farms have been getting larger and heavier, but
| the maximum size/weight has traditionally been limited by what
| human workers can heft into place. I'm interested in what the
| optimum size ends up being when those human limits are removed.
|
| What's the most labor intensive part that remains when robots are
| putting the modules into place on racks? Attaching cables? I
| would guess that robots still aren't dexterous enough for that.
| justicz wrote:
| For us, we're happy for modules to get quite a bit bigger since
| the time it takes to build a bay (what we call one assembly of
| a few modules on a metal tube) is approximately proportional to
| the number of modules, so bigger modules => fewer modules =>
| faster build times. Our robot arms could handle much larger
| modules.
|
| For traditional human installation, we're already approaching
| the limit of reasonable module sizes -- today's modules take
| two people to lift and align.
| Teever wrote:
| I would imagine that the next constraint in the size would come
| from the supply chain, so you'd probably end up seeing panels
| that are 4'x8' if human liftable weight wasn't a consideration.
|
| Perhaps the next size up would be the interior dimensions of a
| cargo container so they could slide in/out like sticks of gum.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > Modules for solar farms have been getting larger and heavier,
| but the maximum size/weight has traditionally been limited by
| what human workers can heft into place.
|
| Are there installers that actually use humans to lift solar
| panels onto racking on solar field projects? I figured everyone
| was using vacuum pump panel lifters instead of humans these
| days as it's much faster and less prone to injury.
|
| One example: https://unimove.com/lift/solar-panels/
|
| These can easily be fabbed up by a single person, it's just
| some steel and a couple vacuum pumps.
| jjk166 wrote:
| I doubt the size limit would be removed. Even if the system is
| installed by robots, it's presumably going to be maintained by
| humans. If a panel dies early or gets damaged, you want to be
| able to swap it out. There are also economy of scale benefits
| for maintaining a common architecture with other solar
| applications, like rooftop installations.
| theendisney wrote:
| The pannels really are roofs. We are building roofs without
| homes under them.
| theendisney wrote:
| The limit is often what you can put on a road.
| mkoubaa wrote:
| Eventually a blimp
| cesarb wrote:
| For comparison, here's a nice video (in Brazilian Portuguese, but
| should be understandable even if you don't know the language)
| showing a solar farm being built in the traditional way:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1nQT7az8c
| mrlongroots wrote:
| This is really cool!
|
| Broadly, I think there's so much potential for computing in
| construction. If we can model logistics decisions as optimization
| decisions, we can leverage incredibly efficient solvers to
| extract efficiencies. The challenge, of course, being the "info
| pipeline" - integrating machines with construction processes and
| planning software and orchestrating it all in a way that adds
| value.
|
| If an entire construction plan is modeled, you could also compile
| it into a staged procurement/shipment plan, and essentially
| orchestrate the supply chain in sync with the jobsite activities.
|
| It'd be cool to have more info on how the process looks like
| with/without these machines, how rates of specific activities are
| impacted etc. but a bunch of this stuff is probably proprietary.
| akira2501 wrote:
| The challenge is that nothing gets built strictly according to
| the plan. Solar farms seem easy because there's no foundation,
| everything is above ground, and there's essentially no
| finishing involved.
|
| This really is the "lowest hanging fruit" of the construction
| industry.
| zer00eyz wrote:
| I always go back to GM and its first welding robots. They had to
| make changes to the construction and engineering process to
| optimize for those welders (and for them it was slow).
|
| I assume that the current install process is fairly "human
| optimal". How much of that changes with your product to make it
| "automation" optimal? Were there small changes here for big wins?
| Or are you still using the same process with complex automation
| (the GM way), and do you see challenges arising from that?
| justicz wrote:
| One of the coolest parts of our job is figuring out what tweaks
| we can make to the process to make things more robot-friendly!
|
| One thing we're already doing that's different from human
| installers is the bay pre-assembly approach you can see in our
| demo video, where we build chunks of 5-9 modules on a tube and
| carry them out to the field. Ordinarily humans put up all of
| the tubes, then all of the brackets, then all of the modules.
| The pre-assembly approach allows us to do a bunch of work in a
| more controlled factory environment on a different part of the
| site.
|
| Longer term there are other ideas we have, but since everything
| has to last for 30-40 years out in the field you have to be
| very strategic about making the big changes...
| mkoubaa wrote:
| There was User Experience (UX) and then Developer Experience
| (DX). Now there could be Robot Experience (RX). I wonder
| which of the same principles would apply.
| Smoosh wrote:
| So often I see the word robot used, when machine would be more
| appropriate.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| What's the difference between a machine and a robot? I've
| commonly heard "it's a robot until it works, then it's a
| machine"
| IshKebab wrote:
| Seems like it assembles individual panels into bigger blocks...
| But why do that on site? Surely you can do that much much easier
| in a factory somewhere?
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Well, then you'll have to solve how to transport those larger
| blocks into site.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| The sizing of so many large objects is determined by what
| fits efficiently into a standard shipping container or truck.
| ericd wrote:
| This looks pretty awesome, but any reason you don't use these in
| a central location to make foldable preassembled racks, instead
| of transporting the factory to the site?
|
| Seems like you could fold them like an accordion into whatever
| max size can be carried by a forklift, drop them in place, pull
| them out to unfold, screw the whole prewired assembly down with
| ground screws, and plug it into the neighboring assembly?
|
| This would probably work best with E/W racking, would go from
| tightly packed to corrugated.
|
| I'm sure there are challenges I'm not considering, but with
| modules getting insanely cheap, it seems like
| racking/assembly/inverters are starting to dominate, and scaling
| up from single modules to full assemblies assembled in factories
| seems like a good next step.
|
| (I've been building my own 20kw ground mount array, so I've had
| plenty of time to daydream about something we could've just
| dropped and pulled out)
| justicz wrote:
| Hey thanks! The trouble with the origami racking approach is
| that the engineering decisions you make to build a portable,
| foldable racking system go in some different directions from
| what makes the best hardware for long-term, large-scale
| installations.
|
| A couple of ways this shows up: 1. making your system rugged to
| handle extreme weather. These sites need to last 30-40 years
| without breaking, which pushes you to use pretty heavy + large
| components. Piles get driven several feet into the ground, so
| even with unfolding systems you're still probably pile driving.
| 2. tracking -- adding the complexity to enable rows to rotate
| to face the sun makes it harder to make the system portable.
| Basically all large-scale solar getting built is single-axis
| tracked. 3. module cleaning -- it's important that vehicles can
| traverse rows to clean dirt off of modules on a regular basis.
| Having structure that connects the rows together may make this
| more difficult.
|
| None of these are intractable on their own but together they
| make the approach you describe very difficult.
| ericd wrote:
| Thanks for going through that! We used aerocompact, with 18"
| ground screws/anchors (a lot of them), and their engineering
| plans for our anticipated wind load didn't even require all
| possible ground screw spots to be filled, so it seems like
| piles might not be strictly necessary?
|
| With panels getting so much cheaper, is tracking necessary
| still? Maybe if land is at a premium, but I know the
| aerocompact commercial deployments don't support tracking.
| justicz wrote:
| Fascinating! My initial thought is that this is going to be
| very soil dependent. Is this the system you were using? Was
| it ballasted? https://www.aerocompact.com/en-
| us/products/ground-mount
| ericd wrote:
| Yeah, we used the g20 south-facing ground mount, no
| ballast, about 40 18" ground screws for a 48 108 cell
| panel array. Soil is clay, for reference, not very rocky,
| so might be unusually well suited for the screws. Easy to
| drive with a socket wrench or impact wrench, 1" heads.
| mxfh wrote:
| 30+ years sounds excessive for managed installations
| (anything thats not just sitting inaccessibly on a roof with
| prohibitively expensive access costs), would think max 10-20
| years, if you have the option to upgrade some higher
| efficiency panels for maintaining best ROI given current
| trends continue and land being a cost factor in most regions.
| terramars wrote:
| i'm down with solar robots, but this is definitely one of those
| problems that's only a problem because of overly restrictive
| immigration laws. installing panels is pretty easy, there are
| tons of people who would be delighted to come to the US and
| install for $20/hr.
|
| source : have a solar engineering firm in Kenya, and have never
| had problems with panel installation labor (QA is another story).
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I haven't used their product, but in a former life I had these
| guys as a customer: https://raptormaps.com/
|
| It seemed like a pretty solid idea re: the QA part.
| dumpHero2 wrote:
| How did this become about immigration? A lot of americans would
| also do it for $20 an hour.
| onlypassingthru wrote:
| Have you ever seen a non-hispanic landscaper in the desert
| southwest metropolitan areas? Me neither.
|
| Now try to find ANYBODY willing to work out in the middle of
| the Mojave or Sonoran deserts. Espero que hables bien
| espanol.
| falcor84 wrote:
| Why did you disable the comments on your YouTube teaser?
| bsder wrote:
| > In some cases, solar construction companies were turning down
| projects because they couldn't find workers. In other cases,
| workers were commuting for hours to get to sites with no hotels
| or grocery stores nearby.
|
| So ... tired ... of ... this.
|
| This is _NOT_ a shortage. This is lack of salary. The oil
| industry somehow manages just fine to get workers to _really_ out
| of the way places.
|
| Apparently the companies aren't drowning in enough projects to
| pay more money.
|
| Why is that?
| sburl wrote:
| This seems like a great construction robotics application since
| you have such an empty / controllable site. Did you ever consider
| teleoperations as well?
| stuaxo wrote:
| Great, this definitely needed.
|
| On the domestic side we need go make rooftop solar more efficient
| to install for countries like the UK, there aren't enough people
| to do it there either.
| m463 wrote:
| _" It's possible to install as much as 1 megawatt of solar power
| in a day, and a project could use multiple systems at once."_
|
| pretty cool.
| nojvek wrote:
| If we want to grow US economy by making existing humans more
| productive per capita, then we need cheaper energy per capita,
| cheaper intelligent robots per capita. Also goes to say we need
| less NIMBY-ism per capita.
|
| We need high speed rail building robots, solar farm building
| robots, home building robots, healthcare robots. Cheap repairable
| open robots. Robots that defend us, robots that transport.
|
| More robots than humans. More robot companies diverse in their
| approaches.
| bugbuddy wrote:
| Please reconsider the part "robots that defend us." There have
| been many books and movies made about this idea. I don't think
| we want it.
| newsclues wrote:
| We can't be afraid of technology because of movies.
|
| Do you not know of all the technology that we enjoy today
| that had movies and books decrying the dangers?
| bugbuddy wrote:
| Well, I would be hard pressed to find an example for the
| wheels. :)
| kiba wrote:
| Movies are fiction. You can't make policies based on fiction.
| You could make policies based on real concern shown by the
| movies, but they have to be based on reality.
| michael1999 wrote:
| What's the turn on capital for a buyer? Like, how many panels
| does a construction company need to install to pay for your
| system, and how does that line up to project size?
| lostlogin wrote:
| I would like to know this, but it would get complicated fast.
|
| The robot presumably doesn't need many breaks and can go all
| night. But any outage can't have someone else sub in.
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