[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How do you ask users about their pain point?
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Ask HN: How do you ask users about their pain point?
I'm interested in the healthcare/medical space and trying to find a
worthy problem to work on. I'm applying the YC method of asking as
many doctors as possible what their pain point is. It's not going
well. Just scraping LinkedIn and trying to make connections, I'm
getting a 25% connection rate and a 1% interview rate. My message
is super concise and trying to be as non-salesy as possible. I'm
pretty clear I'm just looking to learn/listen and not pitch. BTW
I'm also looking into other avenues than LinkedIn, just not 100%
sure what that may be. So, startup folks, how did you manage to
land these early discovery interviews? Especially those in the
healthcare sector.
Author : yr1337
Score : 36 points
Date : 2024-04-18 19:25 UTC (1 days ago)
| codingdave wrote:
| You might have incorrect expectations - if you are scraping
| contact info from LinkedIn and getting any responses at all, you
| are doing well. 25% connections and 1% interview rates sounds
| like you are doing great.
| yr1337 wrote:
| Could be that as well. Maybe someone else will chime in with
| their numbers so I can get a reality check. I'm doing
| everything almost manually right now so it's not efficient.
| guzik wrote:
| I've found LinkedIn difficult to get feedback from GPs. Have you
| tried attending medical conferences? In some countries, you can
| gain access to the world's largest conferences for free if you
| apply through certain organizations.
| yr1337 wrote:
| I have been thinking of conferences, this sounds like a dream-
| like setting for this. I'm early in my journey but last I
| checked those are THOUSANDS of dollars to attend. Did you have
| some pointers on hacks to get in for free? Which orgs?
| guzik wrote:
| Here in Poland, we have PARP - a government organization that
| helps small to medium-sized businesses by covering almost all
| attendance costs, excluding travel.
| yr1337 wrote:
| Lucky you!
| mindcrime wrote:
| If you follow Steve Blank's approach, the ideal thing to do is
| start with "friendly first contacts" - that is, people you
| actually know personally and/or people who you are referred to
| _by_ people you know personally. Then, once you get even a few
| "friendly first contact" meetings, you ask those people to refer
| you to their contacts, and so on in turn.
|
| Note that this stuff is never as easy as it sounds on paper, but
| if you put enough effort in, it eventually works (in my
| experience anyway).
|
| Also note that even if you're not pitching a product for sale
| (yet) asking people for their time for an interview is still an
| ask. Ideally you'd like to be able to offer to compensate people
| for their time somehow. I don't mean paying them cash or
| anything, but think about how to structure your invitations in
| such a way as to communicate that you're offering them something
| in return for their time. That "something" might be "an early
| peek at a revolutionary new technology for ABC" or whatever you
| can think of that is a way of giving some value to them. Be
| creative.
|
| Also, it's not always the easiest thing to go in asking people
| "what are your pain points" in an extremely open-ended way. You
| might find that it's easier to start with a hypothesis about a
| possible pain point, and pitch things in terms of "We've noticed
| that firms like yours often have to deal with problem $FOOBAR. To
| that end, we're developing a novel solution for $FOOBAR, and we'd
| love a few minutes of your time (no sales pitch!) to talk about
| how $FOOBAR and related problems affect you. In return for a 30
| minute interview, we'll offer you $SOMETHING".
| yr1337 wrote:
| I'll check Steve Blank out (didn't know him), but I've been
| trying to follow this technique ad-hoc. Like you said, easier
| said than done. Even friendly people aren't very responsive to
| requests for intros. In the few interviews I did I made a point
| to ask for intros at the end and although they say "sure", it's
| crickets afterwards.
|
| This is a humbling realization of what salespeople are up
| against. We all love to hate on these guys but man... What a
| hustle and you need armor-like skin and insane optimism and
| persistence.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| > In the few interviews I did I made a point to ask for
| intros at the end and although they say "sure", it's crickets
| afterwards.
|
| Are you doing these in person or virtually? If you're doing
| it in person, you're already at the end and have the data
| you're looking for from the person you're talking with. "Do
| you know any other people I should talk to?" "Yeah" "Ok,
| could I just write their names down right now here?"
| spxneo wrote:
| see this is why "startup" is so much harder than running a
| "business"
|
| a "business" already works on what is built or established,
| refining processes to branch off beaten paths to
| sales/marketing
|
| a "startup" operates with too many unknowns for the average
| person, 99% failure means only 1% of the people figure out the
| unknowns to become a "business"
|
| I just don't understand why people just default to "startup".
| You should be focused on running a business and make a 15 cents
| out of a dollar spent, not spend a dollar to make 15 cents in
| hopes that someone will "buy you out" or you "ipo"
|
| such are pipe dreams
| Leftium wrote:
| I think Dane Maxwell is one of the best at doing this.
|
| He published a PDF guide here: https://thefoundation.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/10/Intro-t...
|
| And there are many examples of him doing idea extraction online.
| While you can do IE via email/chat, phone calls or even in-person
| meetings are most effective.
|
| ---
|
| - Instead of quantity, go for quality. You just need a few good
| idea extraction sessions. (You may have to cold-call 100's of
| contacts before that first good session, though...)
| Leftium wrote:
| How about going to a medical conference/event to meet doctors
| in person?
| yr1337 wrote:
| Yes, looking into that for sure.
| yr1337 wrote:
| Thanks for the PDF. Generally, I try to set up Zooms because
| it's a great back-and-forth. In-person meetings would be
| insanely good just for the human factor, but docs aren't into
| that it seems.
| Leftium wrote:
| Consider the situation from your prospects' perspective: most
| likely your outreach is being lost in a sea of SPAM.
|
| I am not a doctor, but my university email was somehow put on a
| list of medical professionals.
|
| So now my university email is barraged with all sorts of SPAM
| targeting medical professionals. It's impossible to
| unsubscribe/opt out. (I've tried, but I keep getting added to new
| lists. It's like the original list keeps reselling my email
| address.) I'm sure it's much worse for an actual medical
| professional.
|
| I'm assuming you're not calling (Even with calls, I personally
| don't answer calls from unknown numbers due to the SPAM calls.
| You need to be leave a text if it is important, or be very
| persistent.)
| yr1337 wrote:
| Yeah I totally get that. Which is why I made it a point to
| really not sound like a salesman, but people are wired to be
| suspicious no matter what.
|
| I was able to interview a few people and I consider them heroes
| because against all odds, they still gave me the time of day
| despite not knowing a thing about me.
| Leftium wrote:
| I briefly tried doing idea extraction on the dietician market.
|
| My cousin was a dietician so she gave me a wonderful session. (I
| still have the notes.) She also referred me to a fellow
| dietician. That session did not go so well.
|
| Very small sample size, but it seems there is a correlation
| between dieticians and a personality type that is not the easiest
| (for me) to talk with. Either certain personality types are
| driven to become dieticians, or the arduous journey to become a
| dietician filters/forms this personality. Not sure about other
| fields...
|
| I decided to switch niches when I discovered how complex it would
| be to follow HIPAA regulations.
| yr1337 wrote:
| I can't wait to engage with dieticians. I feel like I need more
| bashing in my life :-)
| circumlocution_ wrote:
| Engaging busy professionals, like doctors, is very challenging,
| especially when your value proposition is unclear. Get clear on
| what the value of them connecting with you is. If what you're
| offering isn't compelling, don't be surprised when even friendly
| connections don't bite. Don't be discouraged, instead learn from
| it and figure out what you can provide that they find value in.
|
| As others have said, you'd likely have more success leveraging
| your existing network or attending medical conferences, which may
| lend themselves more naturally to having these types of
| conversations (you're right that they're expensive though!).
|
| All things considered, I think a 25% connection rate and a 1%
| interview rate is great.
| yr1337 wrote:
| Yeah I'm in the toughest phase of idea extraction. Which is:
| hey I want to talk to you but I have nothing to say, YOU do the
| talking. That's CRAZY hard, especially on LinkedIn (the low
| hanging fruit I admit). I already extracted a few ideas from
| motivated docs or 1st/2nd degree real-life connections, and I
| could move forward with those on a separate front. But what I
| thought was going to take me 2 hours a day is actually taking
| the whole damn day, every day.
|
| I had this doc tell me in the most condescending way possible
| that she could make good bank if she charged my kind for all
| the free advice she's giving out... And denied me the advice
| until I demonstrated my worth. And then her advice was a bunch
| of shitty platitudes.
|
| I had this psychologist basically suggest I write an essay
| about why docs are driving change in healthcare. I obliged.
|
| On the other hand I had a wonderful doc out of SC who straight
| up shared his screen with me, unprompted, to show me his
| problem. This is the kind of guy that gives me hope.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| If you are in the US, doctor's offices are typically small
| businesses that function different from hospitals. When I was in
| insurance, doctor's offices tended to be less savvy about HIPAA.
|
| They became doctors to practice medicine. Most likely, their pain
| points have to do with all the non-medical parts of running a
| small business, including staying in compliance with regulations
| like HIPAA.
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| Don't. Watch them do their work, or let them describe their work.
|
| From my coaching practice, people are not very good identifying
| there real pain point. My back hurts, but my back isn't broken, I
| just sit too much.
| esafak wrote:
| How's he going to watch doctors do their work? Have you ever
| seen vendors sit in on your appointments?
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| Personally not in appointments, but I have seen vendors
| observe doctors in hospitals. But you can always role play
| for example.
| yr1337 wrote:
| It's something I used to do internally at my previous employer,
| and I know it's very useful. In this case I would have to
| convince a doc to let me follow them around and that's an
| immense ask. It's also going to miss systemic, intangible
| issues that are not task related. It's a great thing to do for
| an already-established product.
| gnatman wrote:
| In the realm of cold calling / emailing, 1% conversion is
| actually pretty normal. 2-5% would be unusually good. I would
| stick with what you're doing and don't lose faith!
|
| If you want to try different strategies in parallel, I work in
| sales for a healthcare SaaS and while my product is
| results/outcomes oriented, I have much better luck talking to
| people about RESULTS they want to achieve vs. PROBLEMS they want
| to solve. At least now we're getting excited about something good
| vs. something they are already sick of talking about, or know
| they can't fix.
|
| Some of the pains in healthcare are so structurally embedded in
| the industry, products purporting to relieve those pains are so
| plentiful, and ACTUAL pain relieving results are so few and far
| between, that messages looking for honest input on major pains
| that doctors experience is too clear of a dogwhistle for "I'm
| going to try to sell you a solution that doesn't work" and will
| be ignored.
|
| Many doctors, for example, are still nursing wounds caused by the
| shift to EMR from paper- pretty much every vendor in that space
| promises an "easy migration" and the reality is that porting to
| EMR or switching vendors is a massive massive pain in the ass.
| ANY solution for a pain, or for amplifying/increasing a
| beneficial outcome, comes at not only a financial cost, but
| (perhaps more importantly) an opportunity cost associated with
| the time investment. Time = patients, patients = reimbursement,
| reimbursement = money.
|
| Edit: Another thing that works for me is seeding the conversation
| with something like, "Something I hear from a lot of providers in
| [specialty] is they have a problem with [problem], or they want
| to do more [thing]. Is that true in your practice?"
| yr1337 wrote:
| Reviewing my numbers I would say it seems closer to 0.5% at
| this point.
|
| You made good points for the stage that you're in, i.e. you
| already have a solution that you can sort of pitch upfront
| (even seeding the conversation is a version of that). I'm at
| the point where I can't/don't want to bias them with the
| slightest hint of what I'm solving because it will taint their
| response. That makes it quite hard!
| paulsutter wrote:
| DO tell them you are doing /market research/ and really
| appreciate their experience and insight. Generally I have offered
| an "honorarium" of say $200 for a 30 minute interview (for
| doctors you might want to offer $500). 90% of people never
| collect the money, just that somehow offering an "honorarium"
| makes the whole thing seem more legit and organized. A high
| honorarium (like $500 for doctors) will also demonstrate respect
| (and they really won't collect the money).
|
| DONT include the question in your request. That will Heisenberg
| results.
|
| DO ask then about /frustrations/, rather than /problems/.
| Frustrations are externally caused. Many people proudly believe
| that they are already handling any /problems/
| yr1337 wrote:
| From a practical standpoint, do you just wait until they hit
| you up later asking for their money?
| noashavit wrote:
| Have you considered offering them something for their time?
| Something as simple as a gift card to a coffee shop, so you can
| have virtual coffee and chat about their pain points?
|
| I know you don't want to sounds sales-y, and there are ways to
| offer this without sounding like a salesperson. Just an idea
| falcor84 wrote:
| Exactly this. People's time is money; pay them what their time
| is worth.
| acureau wrote:
| This has the side effect of incentivizing bullshit submissions.
| This may work better for something that is rigid, like
| answering some multiple choice questions.
| sircastor wrote:
| And be upfront about it - tell them that you're in the research
| phase and you're just trying to gather information, and it's
| not a sales call.
| ametrau wrote:
| Do you think doctors will care about coffee vouchers or will
| they correctly think it's weird and patronising? Cold calling
| is a gift solicitation. Making it transactional from the start
| is mistaken.
| yr1337 wrote:
| I do not want to incentivize people to give me BS feedback just
| to get paid. If they need money or a gift to tell me about
| their pain point, it's not a pain point.
| IanCal wrote:
| Why should they spend their time talking to you though?
| You're asking busy people to help you come up with a business
| idea for free.
|
| > If they need money or a gift to tell me about their pain
| point, it's not a pain point.
|
| This just doesn't follow. There are issues I face, but still
| have no incentive to spend time explaining them to you.
| spxneo wrote:
| asking people for pain points like an interview is never going to
| work unless you have connections/network to introduce you
|
| there is a hack around this but each industry is different
| infamia wrote:
| I would start with contacting people in your town or area. Tell
| them that you recently became interested in problem X and offer
| to meet with them whenever and wherever they choose. You also
| need to do a lot of homework to ask intelligent questions.
| Finally, ask yourself if healthcare is the right choice. That's a
| tough industry if you don't have any contacts and/or background.
| altdataseller wrote:
| Have you tried expert networks? Some of these connect people like
| you with experts in the industry. Some are practitioners while
| others are just "thought leaders" so you need to separate the
| two. They usually cost $xx-$xxx a hour but they're worth the time
| and money rather than finding people willing to talk to you
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. There are companies that specialize in these sort of
| connections. But getting an appointment with a specialist is
| hard enough much less connecting to a qualitative survey.
|
| In addition the the other comments, maybe you have some
| personal networks. But expert networks are probably the best
| bet that doesn't involve personal connections.
| beardbound wrote:
| That's an interesting thought. I've done quite a bit of work in
| the medical/healthcare space in tech in the past. I think part of
| your issue is that doctors are notoriously hard to get a hold of.
| Also they don't make any of the decisions for tech.
|
| If you're just generally trying to get an idea of pain points in
| the industry I think you should get more specific. Here are some
| for instances:
|
| - Are you trying to make the interface between the doctor and the
| patient easier?
|
| - Are you going to look at the way the doctors interact with the
| EHR (electronic health records) vendors?
|
| - Are you trying to make the check-in process easier for
| patients?
|
| - Are you trying to provide analytics for long term quality of
| care metrics on hospitals?
|
| - Are you targeting small clinics, hospitals, or ER/minor
| emergency rooms?
|
| Also for cold calling doctors on Linkedin, I am not surprised
| that you aren't getting much feedback. Most of the doctors I've
| known tend not to be into online stuff. You might have more luck
| reaching out to a local professional organization.
|
| Also you might think about trying to contact nurses, nurse
| practitioners, or physician's assistants. There might be a local
| nurses professional organization that you could reach out to who
| could ask their members if anybody is interested. Just frame it
| as you're trying to figure out a way to make their jobs easier.
|
| This ended up being a little rambly, but I hope it's useful.
| Cheers.
| yr1337 wrote:
| Thank you. YES on a lot of your bullet points. But I'm very
| open-minded about it and would work on any issue if enough
| people raise it.
|
| I've been thinking of reaching out to nurses and other pros
| that work around docs.
|
| I like the professional org idea.
| jcims wrote:
| >I'm pretty clear I'm just looking to learn/listen and not pitch.
|
| They have no reason to trust you. I would think you're just
| looking for an angle to sell me on no matter what you say.
|
| You might try attending/crashing medical conferences in the area.
| You could also talk to folks on the periphery of the healthcare
| industry to look for opportunities.
|
| One that I experienced personally is the difficulty in matching a
| specific person at a specific point in their treatment to
| applicable clinical trials. Particularly with cancer where there
| are so many inclusion/exclusion criteria to consider. The
| terminology is very dense and not always clear. Then you reach
| out to the PI and find that the window is even smaller than it
| appeared at first.
| yr1337 wrote:
| You hit the nail on the head on BOTH points.
|
| They do not trust me (why would they) and they think it's a
| sales tactic. I couldn't be purer in my intentions, but people
| are on the defensive.
|
| And your pain point is actually one I've heard firsthand. Got a
| few ideas and connections in this area.
| gopher_space wrote:
| Could you buy rounds at a bar near a hospital?
| scottishbee wrote:
| I think your question is really: "how do I find people to
| interview?"
|
| First, find out where your prospects actually spend time.
| LinkedIn is garbage for a lot of industries. Most doctors don't
| change jobs much or building "personal brands", so they're not
| scanning LinkedIn often. Reddit can also be often a better
| community.
|
| Second, don't cold message people. Put out HELPFUL (not
| clickbait) content. It can be as simple as a question ("hey, I'm
| wondering how people solve X?"). Let the community come to you.
| Then follow up with the people that engaged with your content.
| They've shown an interest in your topic AND a willingness to
| engage.
|
| At the end of every call, ask two questions: can you follow up
| with them with further questions and is there anyone they can
| think of that would be helpful to learn more? For that second
| question ask them, IN THE CALL, to write an intro email/message
| connecting you. Social validation is critical.
|
| Finally, actually follow up. 1-4 weeks later message an update,
| thank them for their perspective and connection, and again ask if
| there's anyone they can think of to learn more from.
| ametrau wrote:
| No. Cold call.
| altdataseller wrote:
| Sounds good in theory but awful in practice. Nobody will
| connect with you if you ask an open question in public. Like
| what are the chances a doctor will respond back to a question
| you post on LinkedIn or even Reddit?
| yr1337 wrote:
| I like your suggestion and it sounds like it would work great
| for certain cohorts, but not so sure about docs. I can see
| employing this tactic in a conference though. But that's more
| of a phase 2 thing when you already have a handful of ideas.
| umvi wrote:
| Get an actual job in the domain and you'll quickly discover all
| the pain points. For example, become a medical physicist or
| dosimetrist and try working in a cancer clinic. Asking to shadow
| random medical professionals won't work well unless you have a
| friend on the inside greasing the wheels.
| ametrau wrote:
| This is great advice because it works for so many professions.
| Want to make a product for lawyers? Go to law school and be a
| lawyer for 10 years. Bam. Next question.
| ametrau wrote:
| Not specific advice but are you A/B testing? One very salesy
| fluffing msg vs one straight to the point?
| olddustytrail wrote:
| Only when torturing them...
| imbiased wrote:
| Find where those people are. E.g. popular healthcare forums,
| maybe Facebook groups, etc. Go to healthcare events in person,
| all those people will be there to chat.
|
| I've had luck in another field, finding a very popular forum
| online that those in the field used. I simply introduced myself
| and offered to do IT work on their offices as a chance to meet
| people and learn more about the industry. It worked wonders.
| yr1337 wrote:
| I've actually thought of doing IT services for clinics as a
| means to get a foot in the door. That's some seriously deep
| undercover stuff... Very time consuming (could be worth it
| regardless). Were you getting paid for the IT services?
| srameshc wrote:
| What exactly in healthcare/medical space ? Are you interested in
| Drug discovery, Genomics (diagnostics, genetic testing) or
| software services for patients , health care professionals. There
| are plenty of problems in every area including the new AI
| applications for older problems. Narrowing down your focus area
| or something that you have personally experienced should be a
| good starting point.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I'd contact the leaders of professional or interest groups
| related to your domain and ask if they can recommend some members
| who might be interested. If you contact that person in a
| respectful and professional way, they'll feel slightly more
| obliged not to dismiss you immediately, because they're acting in
| a semi-official capacity. And if you get through to them, they
| can pass you on to members who will take you more seriously
| because you come with the imprimatur of someone they know.
|
| [Before, during, and after the session you treat them well, don't
| waste their time, thank them, etc., which hopefully goes without
| saying]
|
| Then when you're done with each interview, you ask the
| participant "hey, this was so great, can you recommend anybody
| else I should talk to?"
|
| To that last sentence, I often used to add "... I'm looking for
| the most outspoken, opinionated expert you know, the person with
| no filter, who just tells it like it is". Chances are they know a
| person like that, and that person immediately leapt to their
| mind. That's who you really want to talk to anyway, the person
| who will tell you exactly what is wrong with everything out
| there.
|
| In terms of asking people about pain points, the best approach
| I've used is to get them to list their pain points, then ask them
| to stack rank that list. If applicable, ask them how much they'd
| pay for a product that solved each of those problems, or just the
| top _n_. You want to know whether they 're just brainstorming
| minor quibbles, or if there is actually an opportunity there.
| zer00eyz wrote:
| Years ago I worked for a bank who would often do UI research and
| focus groups.
|
| Users, mortals, normal people would come in for a gift card and
| lunch.
|
| Small business owners, C levels, non bank VP's had to be given
| (and im going to date myself) a palm V or something of equal
| value to come in....
|
| Short of putting money on the table your response rates are HUGE.
| The question is are you getting the responses from the right/best
| segment of the industry. Remember your competing for their
| "attention" with every medical sales person out there, drugs,
| devices, marketing... "golf" is still a thing.
|
| If you feel the need to add something into the mix: Build a News
| letter (head start on marketing. Run ad campaign (very targeted
| and expensive) and sign up form or survey (exclude all non dr's
| you capture).
| linkjuice4all wrote:
| You're at the end of a long and well-monied line of people (read:
| pharma companies) that want to get the attention of health care
| professionals. Lifetime customer value of patients can be
| extremely high so healthcare companies will spend (within legal
| limits) a lot of money to influence doctors.
|
| Doctors know this - and they do take advantage of it from time to
| time. But you're competing with a lot of money for highly
| valuable time. Maybe consider going where doctors go (e.g.
| conferences) and bothering them there?
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