[HN Gopher] A shrub in Nepal supplies the raw material for the b...
___________________________________________________________________
A shrub in Nepal supplies the raw material for the bank notes used
in Japan
Author : Thevet
Score : 193 points
Date : 2024-04-15 05:45 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| skilled wrote:
| https://archive.is/2PyPF
| wenyuanyu wrote:
| Sourcing the raw material of bank notes from Nepal? Seems a bit
| off from an environmental standpoint by hauling materials halfway
| across the globe from Himalaya.
|
| How about plastic notes? They are durable, recyclable, and
| because they are money, not likely to end up in our oceans as
| wastes.
| MildlySerious wrote:
| Plastic doesn't seem like a good solution, considering that
| notes are moved, stretched, flexed a lot and endure a lot of
| friction. Seems like a needless source for more plastic
| particles shedding into the environment.
| a5withtrrs wrote:
| You might be surprised to learn that a lot of the world uses
| polymer banknotes which are siignificantly more durable and
| last a lot longer than traditional 'paper' based currencies.
| The are incredibly hard to tear/break and they do not wear
| out or stretch. We've been using these in Australia since
| 1996.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_banknote
|
| Having handled a fair amount of US currency I can say it
| _feels_ disgusting to handle after a certain amount of wear
| and often reminds me of a moist tissue. It also doesn't help
| that visually the notes all look very similar (as opposed to
| on polymer notes which have significantly different
| appearances and colours)
| MildlySerious wrote:
| I'm aware it's being done already. But I'm not sure it
| would be a good starting point when designing a new set of
| notes. Euro banknotes are mostly made from cotton, and a
| lot of thought and effort is going into reducing the
| environmental footprint. The most circulated denominations
| last on average four years, the rest significantly longer I
| presume. How does that compare to polymer based banknotes?
| 1jbdg wrote:
| In Canada they last 8-16 years... polymer notes are
| unequivocally better. Corruption and inertia is the only
| reason they are not everywhere. As to plastic pollution,
| banknotes are already a closed, circular loop and hence
| you get the miracle properties of plastic without the
| downside.
| pests wrote:
| I think the concern was with the plastic money shedding
| micro plastics or threads as it slowly degrades over
| time, like we're finding other plastic does like our
| clothing. Not saying enough to take out of circulation,
| but does it shed any particles during its life?
| 1jbdg wrote:
| Does it shed particles? In a world of absolutism yes they
| would.
|
| I don't know if there are actually any studies but fyi
| cotton notes will also have plastic features and a
| synthetic, uv cured varnish to try and get some extra
| life (although far less than polymer) so also 'shed'.
| Banknotes are regularly inspected and worn or damaged
| notes are pulled - they really are the perfect product
| for plastic.
| FinalBriefing wrote:
| By weight though, it's a lot less plastic being put out
| there. Is it worse than clothing? Maybe not, but I'd
| continue to be skeptical about it until some studies have
| been done.
| 1jbdg wrote:
| But the solid piece of plastic isn't shedding, it's
| encased in ink and will be removed with set levels of ink
| wear. The synthetic varnishes, features etc are the same
| with paper so you're putting out 4x the amount of 'at
| risk' shedding material due to the longer life of
| polymer.
|
| Plastic = bad is a disaster for co2 emissions and
| ironically microplastics since the alternatives are
| heavier and don't last as long. Meaning more transport,
| distribution etc and tires are one of the biggest sources
| of microplastics.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| _I think the concern was with the plastic money shedding
| micro plastics_
|
| Show me anyone who is actually 'concerned' about that
| with numbers to back up that there is any significance.
| cubefox wrote:
| Here are some numbers (points on the left):
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=microplastics
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| This doesn't show anyone concerned about polymer money
| shedding microplastics and it doesn't show any numbers
| about how much polymer money sheds microplastics.
|
| What did you think this was evidence of?
| pests wrote:
| People concerned with _microplastics_.
|
| They don't care where it comes from.
|
| The point being - is money one?
|
| Why be so dismissive?
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| _Why be so dismissive?_
|
| Because there is zero evidence of what you're saying. How
| much plastic are people surrounded by and how much of
| that weight is bank notes? How much do they shed? Show
| some numbers or just use some common sense that this
| doesn't matter.
| bsza wrote:
| It's not halfway across the globe. Not even quarter way.
| Meanwhile, the US one dollar note is made with flax imported
| from Belgium (also not halfway across the globe, but farther
| away).
| wenyuanyu wrote:
| No, they are not flying non-stop from Himalaya as you assume.
| I did a rough calculation using [0][1]. Not including the
| land part, just the sea route, it is 5396 nm [0], roughly
| 9993 km and that is indeed halfway the globe.
|
| By the way, from Antwerp, Belgium to Boston, MA is 3607 nm,
| roughly 6680 km, much shorter actually.
|
| - [0] http://ports.com/sea-
| route/#/?a=4063&b=4693&c=Port%20of%20Ko... - [1]
| http://ports.com/sea-
| route/#/?a=3042&b=682&c=Port%20of%20Ant...
| OisinMoran wrote:
| That is roughly a quarter the way around the globe
| hifromwork wrote:
| Not a native speaker, but this got me thinking: how would
| you interpret "halfway" in this sentence:
|
| >It's not halfway across the globe
|
| Equator is 40k km long, so it makes sense getting
| "halfway" there would be 20k km. But the "half" is of
| something, and it doesn't sound right that "at the end of
| the globe" would be the same place you started with.
| Especially since being "on the other end of the world"
| means roughly, well, opposite side of the globe.
|
| So I think OP is justified in defining "across the globe"
| as the "opposite side of the world", and then "halfway
| across the globe" is "quarter the length of equator
| away". But maybe I'm overthinking it.
| OisinMoran wrote:
| This is a very fair point! Another way they could be
| given credit is that the radius of the earth (another way
| to view "halfway across the globe") is 6371km so again
| the quoted distance would be more than this half.
| wenyuanyu wrote:
| Thanks for explaining! Yeah.. I was thinking of the
| maximum direct surface distance when saying "across the
| globe"... That would be 20k km... and the sea route turns
| to be about 10K km long from Kolkata to Osaka...
| wryoak wrote:
| As a native speaker: I think "across" (while
| understandable from context) is the wrong preposition
| because to me that would imply a diametric traversal, not
| circumspect, eg, halfway across would land you in the
| core of the earth. Half way _around_ is what I would say
| to describe superficial travel of half the earth's
| circumference, landing at the opposite side of the world.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Why not locally sourced? I mean it's very possible flax isn't
| native to the Americas but it seems wasteful to source
| something from abroad.
|
| And while 100+ years ago it made sense from a logistics point
| of view - use hard to find materials to fight counterfeiting
| - I don't believe that's a valid argument anymore.
| Luc wrote:
| It's a difficult low margin crop. Not easy to grow cheaply
| and it needs to be processed to extract the fibers.
|
| It's been grown in that part of Europe for thousands of
| years and in the 19th century it was a major industry
| there. I don't think it's still a major crop in Belgium
| (too low margin) but the company in question is entrenched
| now.
| cloudbonsai wrote:
| This thread is grossly missing the point. OP is writing
| about a foreign aid program directed at Nepali people.
|
| Nepal is a rocky country, having a large patch of lands
| unsuitable for farming. People in the rulal area are
| literally one of the poorest population in the world.
|
| Paper bush ("Mitsumata") grows well in such a rocky soil.
| This program is essentially an attempt to set up Japan as a
| longterm buyer of the material, so that the local people
| can make constant money.
|
| > Why not locally sourced?
|
| Because if Japan sourced the material locally, it just
| ceased to be a foreign assistance program.
| kragen wrote:
| i don't know if it's intended as a foreign aid program,
| but if it is, it's a foreign aid program whose budget
| amounts to a single google engineer's salary, so i'd
| think japan could do better
| livueta wrote:
| I mean, it's just one program out of many. Japan is the
| largest bilateral national contributor to foreign aid to
| Nepal: https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/nepal/current
| /obligatio...
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Nepal
|
| In 2019, 146.7M vs 129.0M from the U.S.
|
| Lots of Japanese people travel to Nepal to volunteer in
| schools and clinics and stuff; when living in Japan I
| knew several different people who'd done that sort of
| thing. It's like U.S. doctors and contractors doing
| projects in Central America. Japan is very into building
| soft power in SEA through development assistance.
| hx833001 wrote:
| The US dollar is only 25% linen, 75% cotton.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > from an environmental standpoint
|
| From an environmental standpoint all banknotes should be
| shredded and burned and everyone should use contactless means
| of payment.
| pineaux wrote:
| Is this true tho?
| usr1106 wrote:
| I doubt that. Computing has a greenhouse effect similar to
| air traffic.
|
| Edit: While true that's maybe not a good argument. Financial
| processing hardly is the biggest culprit. The worst impact /
| benefit ratio are probably video and ad distribution.
|
| However, if you think how much Chinese (and similar) goods a
| $20 or 50EUR note buys during its lifetime the impact of
| shipping the banknote material seems negligible.
| a5withtrrs wrote:
| Sure. And we should do nothing but subsistence farming as
| well. But that's not really practical.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| Why?
|
| Are you sure it is more environmental to keep all the
| computers, the network and other related infrastructure
| running (powered on, security updated, etc.) than it is to
| print and distribute banknotes every so many years and
| associated costs with that?
| ericfr11 wrote:
| I agree. The impact (cost, energy...) is nothing compared to
| TikTok video streaming. Economy of scale
| hoseja wrote:
| Japan has a long tradition of advanced papermaking.
| cyclecount wrote:
| And the people of Nepal supply the raw labor used by many of the
| Gulf states
| zeristor wrote:
| Ghurkas:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha
|
| I didn't realise there were Ghurkas in the Indian army.
| hoseja wrote:
| Also increasingly recruited into the russian army for use as
| cannon fodder, you don't hear much fierce invincible Ghurka
| news about those for some reason.
| creaturemachine wrote:
| Those are not soldiers, rather labourers looking for work
| who end up with a gun thrust in their arms as they're sent
| to the front lines.
| shivz45 wrote:
| Also in British army
| zeristor wrote:
| Apologies I took that as well known.
| hacker_88 wrote:
| Japan's Currency is around Similar to Nepalese rupees in exchange
| rates.
| Iambecomedeath wrote:
| We (Nepali) have been using this material to make lokta paper for
| a long time now. These papers (Nepali Kaagaz) are used mainly
| today for official documents.
| kragen wrote:
| apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_bholua and
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphne_papyracea, the usual
| species for lokta paper, are in a different genus in the same
| family as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgeworthia_chrysantha;
| is it possible the _argeli_ mentioned is an _edgeworthia_
| species rather than a _daphne_ species?
|
| edit: twic found https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40039860
| that it's _edgeworthia gardneri_ , which was originally
| classified as _daphne gardneri_ by the gardner who originally
| named it
| dartos wrote:
| Edgeworthia?
|
| Anyone else reminded of the Phoenix Wright games?
| pvaldes wrote:
| Daphne is a complicated material to manipulate. All its parts
| are very poisonous. Edgeworthia is a little safer, it seems.
| kragen wrote:
| you're probably confusing it with the similar-looking
| oleander, i put daphne (laurel or bay leaves) in my soup.
| all parts of daphne are supposed to be poisonous but it's
| not in the same league as oleander
|
| oleander is an unrelated plant, being a rosid rather than
| an asterid, but in some languages people use the same word
| for both because they both have thick and leathery dark
| green glossy lanceolate leaves, usually glabrous, with
| minute reticulate venation
|
| edit: no, laurel or bay leaves are not _daphne_ , they're
| _laurus_ or one of several other genera. _laurus_ is also
| unrelated to _daphne_ , being a magnoliid. i don't know
| anything about how toxic _daphne_ is. i regret the error,
| which was due to Daphne being the greek word for _laurus
| nobilis_ , the laurel from which we get bay leaves for
| seasoning food
| pvaldes wrote:
| > you're probably confusing it with the similar-looking
| oleander
|
| Not. Both are very different species.
|
| Daphne is definitely in the same league as Nerium in
| terms of poison. Very innocent looking, very fragrant,
| very toxic. I would have it otherwise.
|
| What you use in your kitchen is Laurus.
|
| But beware the internet. What you --should not-- use in
| your kitchen is --this-- "Laurus".
|
| http://www.paghat.com/laurel.html
|
| That is in fact a toxic Prunus
| oniony wrote:
| I have this laurel in my garden. It's very hardy. It
| grows very fast and makes another fine mess of my garden.
| altilunium wrote:
| Found this excerpt from [1]
|
| > I dedicate this beautiful genus to Mr. M. P. Edgeworth,
| Esq., to whom we owe a valuable description of the vegetation
| and agriculture in the Sikh states in northwestern India
| (Hooker's Journal of Botany, II. p. 267), and I combine this
| with the wish to also pay tribute to his famous sister, Miss
| Maria Edgeworth, who has become dear to all educated people
| through her writings, which are marked by rare depth and
| fullness of mind and spirit, as a warm admirer of nature and
| the natural sciences, with a modest monument.
|
| Now I'm curious about the reason behind its "gardneri" name.
|
| > Edgeworthia Gardneri nob. Tab. I. E. with petiolate,
| oblong-elliptic leaves, acute on both ends, glabrous above,
| slightly hairy below, peduncles thickened at the apex,
| hemispherical capitula, involucre with lanceolate acuminate
| leaves subequal to the flowers, flowers subvillous-tomentose
| with yellowish pubescence. Hab. in Nepal, where it was
| discovered by Mr. Wallich in 1820.
|
| There are too many high-level botanical terms here, I can't
| understand anything.
|
| [1] : https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/34664378#page/
| 293/m...
| bigbillheck wrote:
| > There are too many high-level botanical terms here, I
| can't understand anything.
|
| That's easily fixable, for example
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTsAFpSXj7Y
| pvaldes wrote:
| > I can't understand anything.
|
| Is the typical botanical idiomatic problem.
|
| _Petiolate_ : Leaves join the stem by a narrow "tail".
|
| _oblong-elliptic_ : Shape of the leaf, self-explanatory,
| also indicates that the leaf is entire (blade shaped as one
| continuous structure)
|
| _acute on both ends_ : blade leaf starts and ends in a
| point (that is short in both cases).
|
| _glabrous above_ : upper surface smooth
|
| _slightly hairy below_ : surface below covered by tiny
| "bumps" or vesicles to protect from dry or chill conditions
| (feels hairy to the touch)
|
| _Peduncles thickened at the apex_ : Ambiguous, but that
| "tail" is more thick in one extreme (probably before to
| join the leaf blade).
|
| _Hemispherical capitula_ : Flowers "glued together" over a
| disk, and arranged as a half sphere. Is not exactly like a
| daisy, but you pick the idea.
|
| _involucre with lanceolate acuminate leaves subequal to
| the flowers_ :
|
| That "disk" has also spear-shaped bracts (accessory small
| leaves) that are more or less as long as the flowers are.
|
| _Flowers subvillous-tomentose with yellowish pubescence_
|
| Flowers in this genus have a strange (and pleasant) plush
| texture. They are covered by a dense layer of short yellow
| (or red) hairs. Is very strange the first time that you see
| it, but also adds a lot of charm and coolness to the
| species.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| That's cool, is it something tourists could buy?
| roydivision wrote:
| Clarification - not one single shrub
| zeristor wrote:
| A veritable shrubbery, Ni!
| pvaldes wrote:
| Let me guess... Edgeworthia crysantha?
|
| EDIT. Yup. I can see the article now. That photo is unmistakable.
| Is a famous Japanese shrub used since a lot of time. The only
| difference is the new area of culture it seems. Formerly known as
| E. papyrifera.
|
| Can be cultured in gardens, reduced size, and very nice fragrant
| blossoms in early spring. Fluffy flowers with the feel of a teddy
| bear. Needs acid soil.
| kragen wrote:
| the article maybe claims it's a different species? the reporter
| doesn't seem to know much about botany, so they're a little
| vague
| pvaldes wrote:
| The photos depict this species[1]. This is the traditional
| one on Japanese bureaucracy for very important documents so
| is basically irreplaceable, because historical reasons.
|
| Edgeworthia is a relatively small, relatively slow grower so
| there are also two species more that provide good quality
| fibers and could be mixed with that. One is a relative of the
| mulberry tree and the other a member of the same family that
| includes Edgeworthia.
|
| [1] EDIT. Selfcorrection. The photos depict an Egdeworthia,
| but could be other species in the same genus as other have
| pointed, yep.
| kragen wrote:
| thank you, i didn't know that!
| vinni2 wrote:
| Money doesn't grow on trees but grows as shrubs
| PetitPrince wrote:
| Reading this article, I was I itially surprised to read to Japan
| had to import raw material given their strong paper tradition
| (shoji , washi, origami, etc.). But then the article states that
|
| > Shrinking rural populations and climate change were driving
| Japan's farmers to abandon their labor-intensive plots.
|
| Makes sense to try to conserve this resource somehow.
| tim333 wrote:
| Probably a lot cheaper to get it from Nepal.
| ho243i2434324 wrote:
| Does anyone know how mitsumata got to Japan in the first place.
|
| "Traditional paper" I imagine is something they've had since
| before the age of European colonization which brought all sorts
| of trade/exchange. Eg. The national-dish of 'curry' in Japan is a
| British twist on Indian one, and so you almost inevitably find
| Beef in it.
| kragen wrote:
| it grows wild in china, which is where paper was invented, and
| which is separated from japan by the east china sea; shanghai
| is only about 1000km from kyushu. korea, which borders china,
| is even closer, about 200km:
| https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7650836,121.5784141,6z?entry...
|
| if you count the ryukyu islands as 'japan', ishigaki is only
| about 100 km from taiwan
|
| european colonization is totally irrelevant here
| kragen wrote:
| specifically _argeli_ , a term which has no wikipedia article;
| _mitsumata_ (which the article says is the name of the paper) is
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgeworthia_chrysantha. the
| wikipedia article says the papers are _washi_ and, in
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_tissue, _kitakata_.
|
| the econometrics from the article
|
| > _This year, Mr. Sherpa has hired 60 local Nepalis to help him
| process his harvest and expects to earn eight million Nepali
| rupees, or $60,000, in profit. (The average annual income in
| Nepal is about $1,340, according to the World Bank.) Mr. Sherpa
| hopes to produce 20 of the 140 tons that Nepal will be shipping
| to Japan. P That's a majority of the mitsumata needed to print
| yen ..._
|
| suggests that the total available profit is 420 thousand dollars,
| enough to support 313 nepalis (though perhaps the workers' wages
| are more than the landowner's profit, i suspect that they are,
| instead, smaller). the population of nepal is 30.7 million
| people, so this probably will not be a major new nepali export if
| it's just for the japanese mint. hopefully the article will make
| it fashionable among hipsters seeking better materials for their
| moleskines?
|
| unfortunately the reporter did not think it was important to
| include the scientific name of the plant, so i guess we're out of
| luck
|
| edit: as twic points out, it's almost certainly
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgeworthia_gardneri, so i've
| updated wikipedia
| twic wrote:
| > Edgeworthia gardneri (common names: Indian papertree,[2]
| Nepalese paperbush;[2] Nepali: argelii (Argelee))[3]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgeworthia_gardneri
| kragen wrote:
| hey, this is great! thanks!
| pvaldes wrote:
| Hum. If is E. gardneri then is not culture, is dismantlement
| of the nepali forests to make money (literally). That would
| be very sad.
| kragen wrote:
| it says they're planting it and harvesting the plants after
| no more than three years so the bark doesn't redden, but
| looking at the photos in the article, it looks like the
| hill districts in question aren't very forested? google
| maps makes it look like there are in fact many forests
| there: https://www.google.com/maps/@26.9,88.5101152,20665m/
| data=!3m...
| pvaldes wrote:
| This mean (probably) harvesting the young branches of
| less than 3 years, but this shrubs should be much older.
| (Maybe in their native climate they grow faster?).
| returningfory2 wrote:
| > hopefully the article will make it fashionable among hipsters
| seeking better materials for their moleskines?
|
| If that happens we'll be reading articles about how unfair it
| is that western consumers are pricing the Nepalese people out
| of their local products (a la quinoa).
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| I don't think all the hipsters in the world could consume
| that much specialty paper in a year, so it's unlikely to be
| an issue.
| kragen wrote:
| presupposing a global hipster population of 100 million and
| paper consumption per hipster of one bullet journal per
| month, weighing perhaps 500 grams, we get 600 thousand
| tonnes per year of paper consumption, roughly four thousand
| times the amount the article tells us is being used to
| print banknotes. this seems like it could employ several
| hundred thousand people, but probably not nearly enough to
| run out of land suitable for growing argeli
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| It wasn't about running out of land it was about the
| demand increasing prices to the point that locals could
| no longer make use of it.
| kragen wrote:
| those are the same thing, we aren't talking about logging
| nonrenewable old-growth forests here
| kragen wrote:
| you can read that stuff if you like i guess. in fact if you
| really want to read it you can get gpt-4 to generate it
| today, without having to wait for it to actually happen:
| http://sprunge.us/REx4gD
| 698969 wrote:
| I wonder if the demand is expected to remain stable..
|
| The article mentions that Japan redesigns its currency every 20
| years, and they're doing so this year.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-04-15 23:01 UTC)