[HN Gopher] New paintings found at Pompeii
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New paintings found at Pompeii
Author : janpot
Score : 137 points
Date : 2024-04-11 15:19 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| gadders wrote:
| FFS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39999030
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| time of submission matters, but it's strange that this post
| wasn't marked as duplicate of your submission
| jdright wrote:
| bbc.com Vs. bbc.co.uk
| gadders wrote:
| I'll just email Dang and ask for a credit to my imaginary
| internet points total :-)
| pvg wrote:
| They only count as HN dupes if they've received some
| attention so this is not a dupe under HN dupe law.
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| At least the donkeys, and not the slaves, were on the other side
| of the wall from the banquet hall.
|
| (Was the thin side passage storage, or for muzak?)
| angiosperm wrote:
| The alley was the way to the slaves' rooms, so supplies and
| slaves would not need to traipse through the manor. The slaves
| probably slept right there, or in rooms above got to by
| ladders.
| angiosperm wrote:
| No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions
| are. They are painted as if from soap-opera re-enactments
| performed by actors bored to tears. Evidently whoever
| commissioned the frescoes couldn't tell, cared less, or could do
| nothing about it. That who paid for them was Aulus Rustius Verus,
| a local politician, tracks. The mosaic floor of 3 million tiles
| with no more decoration than a double black line around the
| perimeter tracks, too; probably rugs covered most of it.
|
| These are lavish trappings of a slave-keeping society. The slaves
| could be compelled to paint and lay mosaic tiles, but not to
| care. They were anyway able to ensure viewers would know. Moderns
| working in advertising will understand.
| hammock wrote:
| >No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes'
| compositions are
|
| When I saw the faces in the hero image this was my first
| reaction as well. Hummel figurines of ancient Rome
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| > _" In the shimmering light, the paintings would have almost
| come to life,"_
|
| They must have been painted by the famous roman "pictor
| lucis": Uiliemus Thomas Quinquaed?
| skrbjc wrote:
| Seems unlikely the slaves would be doing things like painting
| frescoes and laying mosaic floors. That would more likely be
| from skilled craftsmen. My impression was that the slaves were
| probably used to run the bakery.
| hammock wrote:
| St. Kinga Chapel in the Weilizcka salt mine, complete with
| relief carving of the Last Supper, salt crystal chandeliers,
| carved statues and altars was entirely made by trade miners,
| not skilled scuptors. If you spend enough time in a mine you
| can get good at that stuff
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine
| lproven wrote:
| Been there twice. Absolutely astounding place... and the
| bit that's open to the public is I believe about 2% of the
| mine.
| angiosperm wrote:
| Slaves did anything in Roman society. Skilled workers from
| conquered places were enslaved. Slaves apprenticed under
| them. Slaves even ran all the government offices, and some
| got rich from bribes, buying their freedom, and eventually,
| some, their childrens'.
| vondur wrote:
| That is correct. Greek slaves were tutors to some of the
| most powerful people in the Roman government. Polybius was
| kept as a hostage in Rome for 17 years and was a close
| associate of Scipio Aemilianus, who sacked Carthage at the
| end of the Third Punic War.
| Almondsetat wrote:
| Slaves taught geometry and philosophy to emperors...
| pugworthy wrote:
| There must have been professional mural and mosaic designers. I
| wonder if there is any duplication of designs in the town -
| like the artist had a 'liber artis' (clip art book) the
| customer could choose from?
| angiosperm wrote:
| They probably traveled from city to city. They certainly
| carried clip art catalogs, and had painted each scene many
| times over. It wasn't art, it was decoration.
| natroniks wrote:
| I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in
| formulaic motifs. It's hard to judge the "passion" of the
| artist's hand with such low quality images, not to mention the
| damage wrought over thousands of years. I think it's worthwhile
| to be careful not to judge ancient art with a modern eye. They
| had different values. It's quite possible if not likely that
| frescoes were viewed as temporary, to be plaster-painted over
| every so often. We can see multiple layers of painted plaster
| in other parts of Pompeii, so it's not unlikely private homes
| would do the same. If then they viewed this art as fleeting,
| why should they pay for the best details when the overall
| effect is more important? Anyone who walked into this hall
| would have been familiar with the Trojan cycle. So as long as
| the characters were recognizable - hence the name labels - that
| was sufficient. I personally find these bright, full-bodied
| figures against a stark black background reminiscent of the
| chiaroscuro effect mastered by Caravaggio some 1500 years later
| using oil
| duped wrote:
| I'm not an artist or art historian but my understanding is
| that fresco (the technique) has no upsides other than
| longevity. It's time consuming, if the artist makes a mistake
| they need to start over, and has to be meticulously planned.
| That's why even the great masters of the Renaissance painted
| so few, and they tended to be large endeavors. It took a lot
| of time and planning to do one, even at a small scale.
|
| Like if a Roman home owner decided they didn't like the
| fresco on their wall, it would take at least a year to paint
| a new one.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| > I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in
| formulaic motifs.
|
| A good example is ancient Egyptian art, which remained
| remarkably consistent across multiple empires, kingdoms, and
| dynasties, stretching some 3 _millennia_ and change, a time
| range and consistency that is simply hard for us to fathom.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| For statuary in particular, it's important to note that
| Egyptians, and Greeks to a lesser extent, believed that
| statues of gods were _physically inhabited by those gods_
| and could be used to communicate with them, so it was
| pretty important not to mess with depictions.
|
| For other common tropes, like Medusa, they were used as
| wards against evil and were basically magical spells or
| talismans.
| zer00eyz wrote:
| Wow.
|
| You just jammed a very modern perspective on something that
| isnt that at all.
|
| This is a time where there is no "reproduction" where all art
| of this sort is local. If we go into the mayor of your city's
| house, strip out all the reproduction what is going to be left?
| Is he going to be able to put a picaso on every wall if he
| wants them enriched?
|
| "Soap opera like" ... Well let's think about this, any one with
| enough skill is gonna go to Rome, leaving what behind, the B
| team, the after school special level actors. This is what the B
| team does with art. It's very good for where and what it is.
|
| The rant about slavery is very contemporary. The narrative that
| this was created by slaves cause you deemed it lifeless and
| they were "forced" to do it is... disconnected from history,
| and art.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| Pompeii was a beach resort. You don't go to the Jersey Shore
| expecting high art.
| asveikau wrote:
| Beach resort can mean jersey shore (of which there is both
| upscale and down market today), could also mean Martha's
| vineyard. I think Pompeians were wealthy from what I recall
| reading.
| PeterisP wrote:
| These are the luxury villas of the super-rich Romans, in the
| best-resort-close-to-Rome where they'd live while they didn't
| need to be in Rome for political reasons. They definitely
| could afford the "A team".
| angiosperm wrote:
| The fresco painters probably cycled through Rome to pick up
| current fashions, then circulated through outlying towns to
| meet demand for capital styles. A top politician could easily
| have afforded the best painters, _if he cared_.
|
| The "narrative that this was created by slaves" is just a
| fact of history. If you don't like how history was, you may
| direct your attention elsewhere. Ranting about somebody
| mentioning facts of history you prefer to avoid thinking
| about is disconnected from life.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes'
| compositions are.
|
| I don't know.
|
| Cassandra's expression looks remarkably similar to a woman who
| has received an unsolicited dick pic on Tinder.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| 3 phones, 3 beeps; their owners glance at them briefly, and:
|
| Leda: Who's sending me badly cropped Donald Duck?
|
| Europa: That's nothing, I got Rocky Mountain Oysters.
|
| Danae: Get out, losers! _I_ got champagne...
| Ekaros wrote:
| I'm on other hand surprised just how decent they are
| considering they are form nearly 2000 years ago. Ofc, they are
| no Dutch Masters, but still not too bad. There are worse
| artists now...
| angiosperm wrote:
| Civilization as we understand it was already thousands of
| years old, then, and actually expressive art from the period
| is easy to find.
|
| These frescoes were painted at great expense on behalf of an
| elite figure. He could afford to have expressive art if he
| cared enough to demand it, and was perceptive enough to
| recognize whether he had it. Evidently he didn't, or wasn't.
| natroniks wrote:
| When looking at frescoes I like to ask, why did the homeowner (r
| whomever made these decisions) choose these images/themes for
| this context? Not just the Trojan War generally, but these
| particular characters and relationship dynamics? Apollo and
| Cassandra; Paris and Helen; I think of them as 2 pairs of failed
| lovers. Failures not only because their romance didn't work out,
| but also because the fallout from their attempted relationship
| caused so much destruction. The Trojan Cycle is often thought of
| in terms of war, battles, death, destruction. But it really does
| involve a lot of romantic relationships (all of them doomed):
| Achilles and Patroclus, Achilles and Briseis, Helen and Paris,
| Apollo and Cassandra, Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, Menelaus and
| Helen... The thought provoking nature of frescoes in a dining
| room was intentional, as it's the type of source material that
| could be used to inspire conversation at a dinner party. Can't
| wait to learn more about this room
| angiosperm wrote:
| They were topics considered more appropriate for a social
| setting. That they were really about rape and kidnapping was
| probably not seen as notable; they are just familiar
| furnishings of a culture founded and maintained on armed
| compulsion. Nobody but the gods have any freedom, and the gods
| are bored children.
| asimpletune wrote:
| Probably bc Romans believed they descended from people who were
| at the battle of Troy. In particular it was Aeneas whom they
| believed escaped the sacking of Troy and made it to Latina.
| Later his progeny founded Rome. Being connected with great
| myths, whether historically true or not was a big deal, so
| everyone wanted to be able to claim some connection to that big
| event.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| Brutus of Troy is the medieval British equivalent, and has
| other examples in the Renovatio imperii Romanorum phenomenon.
| Connecting oneself to history and myth have long been ways
| that various monarchies and dynasties across the Eurasian
| continent sought legitimacy and "publicized" their power.
| krapp wrote:
| Also Snorri Sturluson recontextualized the Norse gods as
| descendants of Troy in the Prose Edda, because he was
| writing in the context of a post-Christianized society in
| which acknowledging pagan gods would have been heresy.
| aleksiy123 wrote:
| Just a thought but I wonder if its more like having movie
| posters on your wall. Like putting LoTR, or Solaris or Marvel
| or whatever.
|
| The elite would have been brought up on these stories and its a
| bit of signaling + just being a fan of the literature because
| thats what you like?
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| That's a good point. Someone seeing a Star Wars poster on
| your war might wonder why you're obsessed with stories about
| violent insurrections, but actually it's just because...wait,
| why did we put Star Wars posters in our rooms?
| krapp wrote:
| >why did we put Star Wars posters in our rooms?
|
| A long time ago, Star Wars was actually fun, and we could
| unironically enjoy fun things.
| zer00eyz wrote:
| This is a great take.
|
| I am a big fan of the Old Testament (bible). Mind you I am at
| best a "reformed catholic" and at worst an atheist and
| hedonist.
|
| But the Old Testament is great, for the very reason you're
| using here. It was the summer block buster of its time.
| Special effects: parting seas (a Hollywood classic), people
| turning to salt, city walls crumbling under the might of
| trumpets. So. Much. Sex. (The Old Testament is getting an
| nc-17 before we get out of the garden.) The power of god as
| "magic"....
|
| To your point, I would assume that being raised on "Troy"
| would give it a certain reverence. Out side religious texts
| do we still raise kids this way? I think of the reverent
| childhood stories and "thing one and thing two" spring to
| mind... Im not sure if I want that sort of wall art.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| > _" thing one and thing two" spring to mind..._
|
| It _is_ possible to say "would you like to come up and see
| my Theodor Geisel prints" with ulterior motives.
|
| Huckle Cat and Lowly Worm and the goat farmer (whatever his
| name was) were my reverent childhood stories, but I don't
| need them as wall art: when I found someplace that
| resembled Busytown, I moved here, so instead of putting
| them on my walls, all I need to do is go into town...
| jakderrida wrote:
| Unironically, you should write scripts for the museum tour guy.
| While it has been a long time since I've come across one, I
| recall not being able to pay attention either because they're
| observations were apparent at surface-level or because they
| assume we're all pHD students.
|
| Best place to start is to just personalize it. With certainty
| that someone chose to portray what appears on the frescoes in
| front of you over numerous possible alternatives. Now ask
| yourselves why. Notice the lack of romantic portrayals of
| Hector or Achilles charging into battle like you'd find on
| posters of anime or modern subject matter.
|
| It just seems like such a perfect way to get through to
| teenagers like I once was that really couldn't imagine the
| people that owned the frescoes as anything more than
| abstractions I'd associate with middle school Social Studies.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| I watch a fair number of action flicks with my wife; spotting
| the oplisis ("arming scene") is one of the ways I pretend to
| do so from a high culture vantage point.
|
| https://www.charlieslanguagepage.com/LS7/omicron/hoplisis.ht.
| ..
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LockAndLoadMonta.
| ..
|
| Lagniappe: http://strangehorizons.com/poetry/troy-the-movie/
| project2501a wrote:
| > Helen and Paris
|
| Apologies for nitpicking but on the picture it says
| "Alexandros"/Alexander, not Paris
| jdlyga wrote:
| Pompeii is an amazing place to visit, and it was a much different
| place than I expected. It feels like you're in a city. There are
| roads, sidewalks, and even pedestrian crossings. There are shops
| with apartments on top, wine bars, everything. It's huge!
| dgfitz wrote:
| I would highly recommend anyone who has the desire and
| financial means visit at least once. I was completely
| fascinated, could have spent days there instead of just one
| day.
| alpha_squared wrote:
| I stayed there for a week and can confirm it was a great
| time. There are a surprising amount of activities and tourist
| destinations within reach without the busyness that you often
| find at touristy destinations.
| evereverever wrote:
| Amazing!
|
| When will these be chipped away and taken to Naples to their
| museum?
|
| I feel that's the greatest tragedy of Pompeii is having to visit
| Naples and see that whole walls and most artifacts are just kept
| there.
| drawkward wrote:
| For all those who intend to visit Pompeii: Rick Steves has a free
| narrated (in English) tour in one of his apps. Really worth it.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| Every few decades we should choose a random block anywhere in the
| world, pay all of the inhabitants a very fair compensation for
| them to leave all of their worldly possessions exactly as they
| lie, board up the entire block, then dump a preserving material
| onto the block. Millenia from now it can be excavated by the
| world for a snapshot into that time and place.
| jart wrote:
| It works better if the people are preserved too, just like
| Pompeii; otherwise it's just a dollhouse. You should shelf your
| proposal until we have the technology for cloning and
| resurrection.
| astrodust wrote:
| Once in a while people inadvertently create these pristine time
| capsules: http://www.astoriedstyle.com/a-look-into-the-past-an-
| untouch...
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