[HN Gopher] Stacking triangles for fun and profit
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Stacking triangles for fun and profit
        
       Author : olooney
       Score  : 146 points
       Date   : 2024-04-11 12:57 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.oranlooney.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.oranlooney.com)
        
       | jihadjihad wrote:
       | Maybe I just got lucky, but that's pretty much exactly how I
       | remember being taught in high school calculus class. No ODEs or
       | anything of course, but the teacher started from the geometry,
       | then moved to the trig functions and identities, and finally to
       | derivatives and Taylor / Maclaurin series.
       | 
       | It's a good post, and I agree--there is just no hope in getting
       | students to develop any kind of intuition in math without
       | starting from something really simple like the geometry of the
       | problem. Plus, it's way more fun!
        
         | darkwater wrote:
         | I think fun in learning comes mostly from the "intuition
         | reward". If you understand and _feel_ some abstract concept in
         | an intuitive manner, you will feel happy and you will probably
         | want more of that. So, for teachers finding ways to teach
         | concepts that can trigger students intuition, in my experience
         | as a student, will get more engaged students.
        
         | Ensorceled wrote:
         | I have my old high school calculus text book and that is
         | definitely how trig was introduced. The proof of Pythagorean
         | Theorem using sin and cos was literally part of my undergrad
         | CALC101 (I remember because my high school teacher demonstrated
         | it for fun so it was a rehash)
        
           | lupire wrote:
           | When were you in Calc 101?
           | 
           | Before or after 2009?
           | 
           | https://forumgeom.fau.edu/FG2009volume9/FG200925.pdf
        
             | Ensorceled wrote:
             | Before. It was clearly circular since the identity was
             | assumed, the calc prof might have acknowledged this at the
             | time.
        
         | gedy wrote:
         | My math teacher was teaching us Trigonometry without ever
         | showing the unit circle, and the class was completely
         | befuddling to me and other students. This was pre-internet, and
         | I stumbled across the unit circle in a book and the meaning of
         | sine, cosine, etc. on it - and was like a huge revelation to me
         | and others.
         | 
         | I've enjoyed trig since, and one of the few math topics I
         | continue to use to this day.
        
           | bbitmaster wrote:
           | I remember just learning to code at a young age, but not
           | knowing trig or seeing how it applied because I only knew it
           | as being about triangles.
           | 
           | I had learned to use some game graphics library (specifically
           | DJGPP with Allegro, coding in C) and I was trying to make a
           | 2d spaceship game, think like asteroids, where you can turn
           | the ship and apply thrust. I couldn't figure out how to take
           | the angle the ship was facing and get a direction to move.
           | Basically I needed to understand the unit circle. I
           | eventually found what I needed probably on some old internet
           | forums. From that point on, trigonometry really started
           | making sense to me.
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | >> What struck me as odd when I was an undergraduate, and still
       | strikes me to this day, is that none of these are the obvious
       | trigonometric definitions about the opposite and adjacent sides
       | of a right triangle.
       | 
       | I had the less common experience of learning some graphics
       | programming prior to taking a trig class in school. "How do I
       | draw a circle?" You sweep an angle from 0 to 360 (or 2*pi) and
       | use sin() and cos() to get points on the unit circle, then
       | multiply by your radius and plot them. For me the notion of sin
       | and cos being coordinates of points on a unit circle was natural.
       | Later when I had trig class it seemed really weird to define
       | these functions as ratios of sides of a triangle. In particular
       | you never talk about a side length as being negative. So no, it's
       | not universal that the triangle definitions seem more obvious or
       | make more intuitive sense.
       | 
       | I think this is important for people to understand. What seems
       | easy or natural can depend on how your particular tree of
       | knowledge was constructed.
        
         | vlowrian wrote:
         | In fact, sine and cosine never really made sense to me, until
         | one day, I saw an animation similar to this one:
         | https://youtu.be/Q55T6LeTvsA?si=7fiBxFVMu67tb3NZ (without the
         | overly dramatic soundtrack).
         | 
         | Before that it was just some weird function I needed to
         | calculate angles in triangles...
        
         | philomath_mn wrote:
         | That's too bad -- I am pretty sure my trig class introduced
         | unit circles and the triangle relationships at around the same
         | time.
         | 
         | The unit circle with key points labeled is still my go-to
         | doodle; it is a beautiful set of concepts.
        
         | Sharlin wrote:
         | I remember wondering what these strange "sin" and "cos"
         | functions were in Delphi 2 or something - it was ~1997 and I
         | couldn't just google it - and tried to find a pattern in the
         | seemingly arbitrary output values. I don't think trying to plot
         | them as y=f(x) crossed my mind, not at first anyway, but
         | instead I somehow ended up trying to plot x=k sin(t), y=k
         | cos(t) and was amazed when I realized that they traced a circle
         | on the screen. Only later I learned in school that they had
         | anything to do with triangles. To me they were functions for
         | emitting circle coordinates first and foremost.
        
       | dmayle wrote:
       | I started reading this, and the article is very approachable, but
       | it's flawed from almost the very beginning.
       | 
       | He uses the angle addition formulas to derive the Pythagorean
       | theorem, but this derivation only works because he predefined
       | sine and cosine as odd and even functions, which hasn't been
       | proven
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | He did gloss over it, but odd cos and even sin is obvious as
         | soon as you define signed angles (which and lengths (which he
         | forgot to mention).
         | 
         | Sin(t) clearly has the same sign as t. (That's why it's called
         | "sin" ;-) )
        
       | isolli wrote:
       | My daughter (in 5th grade) is interested in learning advanced
       | maths, so we looked at sine and cosine.
       | 
       | Question: is there an easy, geometrical way to "show" that
       | `cos(60o)=1/2` using the intuitive definition based on the
       | trigonometric circle?
        
         | orlandpm wrote:
         | Yes! Draw an equilateral triangle with side length one. Then
         | cut it in half and reason from there.
        
           | sublinear wrote:
           | Pretty sure we used to have posters of this and similar
           | figures in middle school classrooms.
        
         | gjm11 wrote:
         | Yes.
         | 
         | (I assume that by "the intuitive definition based on the
         | trigonometric circle" you mean that (cos t, sin t) is the point
         | at angle t on the unit circle. If you meant something else,
         | then what follows may not be helpful.)
         | 
         | APPROACH 1
         | 
         | If you take the point (1,0) and rotate it anticlockwise through
         | 60o about the origin, you get (cos 60o, sin 60o), by
         | definition. Look at the triangle formed by (0,0), (1,0), and
         | (cos 60o, sin 60o). The angle at the (0,0) vertex is 60o. The
         | other two angles are equal because the triangle is isosceles
         | (rotating a line segment doesn't change its length) so they
         | must also be 60o since the angles in a triangle add up to 180o.
         | 
         | So now drop a perpendicular from (cos 60o, sin 60o) down to the
         | horizontal side of the triangle; it lands at (cos 60o, 0), so
         | cos 60o is the distance from (0,0) to that point, and 1-cos 60o
         | is the distance from (1,0) to that point. But those distances
         | are the same, by symmetry, and now we're done.
         | 
         | APPROACH 2
         | 
         | Draw the unit circle and inscribe a regular hexagon in it with
         | (1,0) as one vertex. Divide it up into six triangles by drawing
         | radii. As above, these are equilateral triangles.
         | 
         | So now look at the horizontal separation between the opposite
         | points (-1,0) and (1,0). Obviously the distance is 2 units. But
         | we can split it up a different way: we have a horizontal
         | distance 1-cos 60o from either of those to the next point
         | around the circle, then 1 from that to the next point, then
         | 1-cos 60o back to the opposite point. So 2 = (1-cos
         | 60o)+1+(1-cos 60o) and again we're done.
         | 
         | (But I think any proof of this particular thing is going to be
         | basically about equilateral triangles more than it's about
         | circles. It might be easier first to show that for angles
         | between 0 and 90o the trig functions have their "traditional"
         | definition in terms of right-angled triangles, and then bisect
         | an equilateral triangle.)
        
         | adrian_b wrote:
         | If you look at a regular hexagon inscribed in a circle (i.e.
         | whose vertices are determined by 6 rotations of 60 degrees
         | whose end point returns to the starting position), the length
         | of one edge is equal to the radius (this could be demonstrated
         | based on symmetry, because in the triangles formed by 1 edge
         | and 2 radii all angles are equal, therefore also all edges).
         | 
         | The cosine of 60 degrees is one half of the edge divided by the
         | radius, i.e. divided by the edge, therefore it is 1/2.
        
         | pvg wrote:
         | As a side comment to sibling comments with various approaches,
         | there's a handy bit of intuition/technique to this that's
         | useful for 5th to 105th graders - when you notice 'useful'
         | angles in a plane geometry problem, make the thing they suggest
         | out of them. So, 60 deg angle is a piece of an equilateral
         | triangle - finish the whole triangle and see if you get any
         | ideas. The unit circle sin/cos thing teaches you all sorts of
         | stuff about right-angled triangles. See a problem without a
         | right angled triangle? Draw a line to add one, etc.
        
           | lupire wrote:
           | Useful angles are the only exact angles that really exist :-)
           | 
           | Everything else is a brutish approximation.
        
             | pvg wrote:
             | Of course, 'useful' and 'brutish' can be stretched a bit.
             | Maths olympiad problem (from right around 5th grade, to
             | boot):
             | 
             | Trisect a 36deg angle.
        
       | gertrunde wrote:
       | > Now, the line EC is perpendicular to AB, and the line BC is
       | perpendicular is AC, so the angle [?]BCE is the same as the angle
       | [?]CAD which we called a.
       | 
       | I'm hoping that's a typo, and should be:
       | 
       | > Now, the line EC is perpendicular to _AD_ , and...
       | 
       | (Edit: although I vaguely recall in school doing that bit as the
       | sum of the angles around point C)
        
         | Tainnor wrote:
         | Yes, I'm pretty sure you're correct, I did stumble over this
         | too.
        
       | gjm11 wrote:
       | I don't agree with the perspective taken here; I don't see any
       | reason to think that the definition in terms of triangles is the
       | simplest or most natural, and I suspect the author feels that way
       | just because it's how they were first taught about
       | trigonometrical functions.
       | 
       | Of course I _do_ agree that definitions in terms of power series
       | and differential equations are less natural and require heavier
       | mathematical machinery.
       | 
       | But: the "right-angled triangle" definitions have the _severe_
       | drawback of only applying to a restricted range of angles, and
       | their relationship to those higher-tech definitions is more
       | indirect than necessary.
       | 
       | Instead, I claim that the One True Definition of the trig
       | functions is: if you start with the point (1,0) and rotate it
       | through an angle t (anticlockwise, which is conventionally the
       | "positive" direction in maths) about (0,0), then the point where
       | it ends up is (cos t, sin t).
       | 
       | This is just as simple, and just as geometrical, as the
       | "triangle" definition. It leads directly to the differential-
       | equation characterization (which in turn leads easily to the
       | power series). For angles between 0 and pi/2, it's obviously
       | equivalent to the "triangle" definition.
       | 
       | Can you get the addition theorems easily from this definition?
       | Yes, and (again) without the severe drawback of only applying
       | when all the angles involved are between 0 and pi/2 as for the
       | "triangle" definition.
       | 
       | Start with a diagram showing the points (0,0), (cos t, 0), (0,
       | sin t), (cos t, sin t). Now rotate the whole thing through an
       | angle u about the origin. Obviously (0,0) stays where it is. (cos
       | t, 0) just goes to cos t times (cos u, sin u), i.e., to (cos t
       | cos u, cos t sin u). If you turn your head through 90 degrees it
       | becomes clear that (0, sin t) similarly goes to (- sin t cos u,
       | sin t sin u). And of course (cos t, sin t) goes to (cos t+u, sin
       | t+u) since we have rotated it through an angle t and then through
       | an angle u.
       | 
       | And now we're done, because the "vector addition" property the
       | original diagram had remains true after rotation, so adding (cos
       | t cos u, cos t sin u) to (- sin t cos u, sin t sin u) has to give
       | you (cos t+u, sin t+u). And that's exactly the addition theorems.
       | 
       | (That may be hard to follow with no diagrams, but I think it's
       | easier to follow than the triangle-stacking proof would be
       | without diagrams, and with diagrams everything is pretty
       | transparent.)
       | 
       | The right-angled-triangle definitions are traditional because
       | historically trigonometry came before coordinates. But now we
       | have coordinates and generally learn about them before we learn
       | trigonometry, and at that point the point-on-the-unit-circle
       | definitions are simpler, more general, and better suited for
       | proving other things.
        
         | enizor2 wrote:
         | Could you expand on getting the differential equation from your
         | definition? I don't really where to start from it.
        
           | outop wrote:
           | Draw a line of length 1 which makes an angle of p with the
           | positive x axis. The x and y coordinates of a, the point at
           | the end of the line give cos(p) and sin(p).
           | 
           | Now think about what happens if you increase p by a tiny bit.
           | a moves tangentially. (This works very similar to how the
           | tangent to a curve gives the change in y for a change in x.)
           | So the vector of cos'(p), sin'(p) is given by a vector
           | starting from a, at a right angle to 0a, and pointing in the
           | positive direction.
           | 
           | Since the point a moves through 2pi distance while p goes
           | from 0 to 2pi (the definition of measuring angles in radians)
           | the speed of the point is 1, and so the vector of derivatives
           | has length 1.
           | 
           | You can check easily that this makes cos'(p) = -sin(p) and
           | sin'(p) = cos(p).
        
             | gjm11 wrote:
             | Yup!
             | 
             | (If I were trying to present this stuff in a maximally-
             | elegant order without _too_ much regard for what order
             | human brains like to learn things in, the order of things
             | would be: complex numbers, calculus, trigonometry. Then we
             | define something that we might initially call e(t) to
             | satisfy the differential equation de /dt = ie, and observe
             | that having e and e' at right angles means that |e| remains
             | constant, which means that |e'| also remains constant, so
             | if we start with e(0)=1 then we have a point moving at unit
             | speed around the unit circle, etc. Keep the linkage between
             | the geometrical and formal points of view there at all
             | times. But I suspect this wouldn't be great paedagogically
             | for the majority of students.)
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | If you allow negative side lengths, as you should, much of
         | geometry is unified and simplified, such as this situation.
         | 
         | Negative (and imaginary) measurements make math better-behaved.
         | (See also: quantum mechanics.)
         | 
         | Rectangular coordinates are suboptimal because they are
         | arbitrary in a way that hides some of the symmetry of
         | mathematics.
         | 
         | Your vector argument looks like a lot of algebra noise "without
         | a diagram" because it relies on... triangles... for intuitive
         | justification.
        
           | tromp wrote:
           | > Instead of adding two separate angles a and b, we'll use th
           | and -th.
           | 
           | It's not clear that the geometric proof based on pictures
           | with positive angles a and b also applies to a negative b. I
           | think one should at least provide a separate picture of that
           | case...
        
           | Tainnor wrote:
           | > If you allow negative side lengths, as you should [...]
           | 
           | I mean, the blog post was about a pedagogically better suited
           | construction of trig functions. If we allow negative side
           | lengths, it's not really going to be intuitive anymore. At
           | this point, you might just as well use the power series
           | definition (or the one based on the complex exp function)
           | since it makes things easy to prove.
        
             | lupire wrote:
             | Imaginary lengths may be unintuitive but negative is pretty
             | simple.
             | 
             | The idea of negative measurements (meaning "opposite
             | direction along a line") as is well understood before
             | children study geometry. Kindergarteners learn "left" vs
             | "right" and "forward" vs "backward".
             | 
             | I agree with other poster about the value of showing
             | negative and positive lengths visually in the same diagram.
        
               | Tainnor wrote:
               | Magnitudes are intuitionally directionless (hence why
               | norms and measures are nonnegative reals). Of course, you
               | can extend notions suitably and make it work, but I
               | really don't think that this is terribly intuitive. (Of
               | course, different people will find different things
               | intuitive.)
        
           | jvanderbot wrote:
           | The rotating angle suggests immediately the domain and
           | definition of Sin(x), Cos(x) using simple projections. And,
           | huuuuge bonus, that's a right triangle.
           | 
           | I just think lesson zero in the above article should have
           | been these projections, and a simple "From this all angles
           | can be defined as right triangles in your preferred
           | coordinate system", and you're off to the races in any old
           | direction.
           | 
           | This is _not_ how I was taught it, and I 'm retrospectively
           | upset.
        
         | Tainnor wrote:
         | I agree that the triangle-based definition starts breaking down
         | once you get to angles greater than pi/2. I was told in school
         | that "there are no right triangles with such angles, but just
         | imagine that there were" and was then shown some weird
         | (supposedly suggestive) diagrams. I found this unsatisfying and
         | moreover hard to remember.
         | 
         | Of course, you could always just define sin and cos for acute
         | angles only and then extend the definition with trig
         | identities, but that seems rather unmotivated too.
        
         | justinpombrio wrote:
         | You phrase this as a disagreement, but in my mind this is
         | complementary.
         | 
         | The point of the post is that you should define things in terms
         | of what you care about, and _then_ prove stuff about it. The
         | sum:                   Sum from n=0 to infinity of (-1)^n /
         | (2n+1)! * x^(2n+1)
         | 
         | isn't something you should _start_ with, it should be the
         | _punchline_. Instead, you should start with angles (the thing
         | you care about), then prove that they behave the same as that
         | sum (what an incredible claim!).
         | 
         | The post proposed "angles of the acute corners of right
         | triangles" as the starting point. You've argued very well that
         | "angles in the unit circle relative to (1, 0)" is a better
         | starting point. Pedagogically, I think it's a wonderful
         | starting point:
         | 
         | "Let's talk about angles. Just angles, nothing else. When you
         | look at angles of actual objects, the side lengths are all
         | different, which complicates matters. Since all we care about
         | is the angle itself, not the side lengths, let's make all side
         | lengths equal to 1. Etc. etc."
        
         | jessriedel wrote:
         | It wasn't a historical _accident_ that triangles came before
         | coordinates. Coordinates are more abstract than triangles quite
         | generically for humans. (When we teach children numbers, we
         | start with the natural numbers and then later introduce
         | negative numbers.)
         | 
         | I claim it's only because you and I have internalized them so
         | well that they both seem intuitive, which is what allows you to
         | prefer the coordinates approach due to its greater generality
         | to negative angles.
         | 
         | In any case, as another commenter said, I think you basically
         | agree with the author's main point and are disagreeing with a
         | minor point (which is to some extent a manner of taste).
        
           | jerf wrote:
           | This is another way of looking at the concept of Kolmogorov
           | Complexity and relating it to real life... which thing you
           | consider the most "natural" encoding of these concepts, and
           | thus the "shortest", can depend very heavily on your "native
           | mathematical language". One not even reach out to strange
           | hypothetical aliens who think utterly different than us.
           | Multiple people all firmly raised in the modern conventional
           | human mathematical landscape can vary, as is seen right here.
           | 
           | Though it does occur to me to wonder what an alien in a very
           | obviously hyperbolic universe would consider the most
           | natural. Or one of the beings that lives in Greg Egan's
           | universe with two time and two space dimensions.
        
         | onedognight wrote:
         | The only reason the author's definition doesn't apply to larger
         | and smaller angles is that they explicitly considered the
         | angles <ABC and <CBA to be equal rather than negatives of each
         | other. That was a surprisingly odd oversight given that they
         | immediately start talking about negative angles.
        
       | woopwoop wrote:
       | I guess it's all in the way you look at things. I would say that
       | the addition formulae for sine and cosine are more weird and
       | technical than the Banach fixed point theorem, which I would say
       | is much more fundamental.
        
       | enizor2 wrote:
       | I do not understand this consideration: > By considering a
       | triangle with hypotenuse 1 and a very small "opposite" side, it's
       | not hard to see geometrically that sin(x)[?]x and cos(h)=x when x
       | is small
       | 
       | I fail to see how you can "see" finer than sin(h) -> 0 & cos(h)
       | -> 1
       | 
       | From the limit definitions you actually need :
       | 
       | * (1-cos(h)) / h -> 0
       | 
       | * sin(h)/h -> 1
       | 
       | (which correspond to the derivatives at 0).
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | Your limit definition is the same as the part you quoted, so
         | it's not clear what your question is. I also don't see what you
         | are quoting.
         | 
         | Curvature is inverse of radius.
         | 
         | Decreasing angle is equivalent to increasing radius, and this
         | decreasing curvature. This, as angle decreases, the curve
         | becomes close to a straight line, and that straight line
         | approaches a vertical line.
         | 
         | As usual, 3B1B created a quintessential visualization and
         | explanation.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S0_qX4VJhMQ
        
           | enizor2 wrote:
           | I quote the second paragraph of the Derivatives section.
           | (which was edited to a better, but not yet enough, sin(h)[?]h
           | and cos(h)[?]1 when h is close to zero).
           | 
           | I perfectly understand that around 0, sin(x) ~ x and cos(x) =
           | 1 + o(x) but it isn't obvious geometrically, unlike what the
           | article implies.
           | 
           | From my point of view, increasing radius / decreasing
           | curvature only gets you sin(x) -> 0 ; cos(x) -> 1, but that
           | isn't enough to obtain the derivatives.
           | 
           | I found a geometric proof in [1] but that part is the longest
           | and hardest of the page. I was wondering whether the author
           | found a clearer way to express is.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.mathsisfun.com/calculus/derivatives-trig-
           | proof.h...
           | 
           | EDIT: after looking at 3B1B's video, the "small" triangle
           | d(sinTh) by dTh figure would be a better way to explain the
           | derivative, rather than an "not hard to see geometrically"
           | approximation that isn't enough to conclude.
        
         | philsnow wrote:
         | That one line was the part that stood out to me the most as
         | well, but:
         | 
         | If you zoom in sufficiently at x = 0, f(x) = sin(x) looks
         | indistinguishable from f(x) = x, whereas g(x) = cos(x) looks
         | indistinguishable from g(x) = 1.
         | 
         | (also, sin(x) is negative approaching 0 from the left and
         | positive approaching 0 from the right)
        
       | mckn1ght wrote:
       | > none of these are the obvious trigonometric definitions about
       | the opposite and adjacent sides of a right triangle
       | 
       | Am I just misunderstanding something about this articles
       | motivation? I'm pretty sure I learned the unit circle in high
       | school trig, possibly even 7th grade geometry although my memory
       | that far back is fuzzier; but we did lots of geometric
       | constructions with straightedge and compass, and did basic
       | geometric proofs using complementary angles etc, and my teacher
       | was obsessed with triangles. I didn't learn about series until
       | Calc 2 in early undergrad.
       | 
       | I still use the unit circle to reconstruct various trig
       | properties from memory.
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | His claim is that sin and cos in calculus are often introduced
         | _independently_ of geometry, as math for engineers is non
         | rigorous, and the connection to triangles is a magical
         | coincidence.
         | 
         | See also "Early vs Late Transcendentals" in calculus pedagogy.
        
         | munchler wrote:
         | I agree, and the linked Wikipedia page starts out with the
         | obvious definitions as well:                   In mathematics,
         | sine and cosine are trigonometric functions of an angle. The
         | sine and cosine of an acute angle are defined in the context of
         | a right triangle: for the specified angle, its sine is the
         | ratio of the length of the side that is opposite that angle to
         | the length of the longest side of the triangle (the
         | hypotenuse), and the cosine is the ratio of the length of the
         | adjacent leg to that of the hypotenuse.
         | 
         | The author's claim that other definitions are the "most common
         | starting points" seems like a straw man.
        
       | vanderZwan wrote:
       | I wonder if the author of this article would like Norman J.
       | Wildberger's work on rational trigonometry[0], which also argues
       | that angles and unit circles are the wrong starting point for
       | defining triangles.
       | 
       | [0]
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Proportions:_Rational_T...
        
       | Tainnor wrote:
       | The article initially points out that in mathematics, there are
       | often equivalent definitions, that each have their own benefits
       | and drawbacks. I think the author could have just written "I have
       | found an alternative approach" instead of "I have found a better
       | approach".
       | 
       | As others have noted here, the geometric argument only works
       | "intuitively" for acute angles and the functions have to be
       | explicitly extended. Still, I hadn't seen this proof of the angle
       | addition formula yet, and I found it neat.
       | 
       | From a point of view of formalisation, a power series based
       | approach (either directly or via the complex exp function) as
       | traditionally used is probably better, because going into
       | analysis (especially complex analysis), you're going to need
       | power series anyway. Geometry meanwhile is intuitive to us but
       | you'd have to encode a bunch of Euclidean axioms and theorems
       | beforehand, which you might not otherwise use. Also, for better
       | or worse, many mathematicians aren't really taught axiomatic
       | geometry (I wasn't at least).
        
       | tel wrote:
       | I think there's a bit of a straw man here pointing at the series
       | definitions as being applied as the "intuitive" sense for sin and
       | cos.
       | 
       | Instead, I find that the intuition that's sought is more to start
       | by seeing exp(it) as being a generator of complex rotation---a
       | tremendously beautiful and parsimonious bit of theory---and then
       | seeing sin and cos as being 1-dimensional coordinate projections
       | of that.
       | 
       | Then the series definitions are just cute ways of deriving that
       | relationship formally.
       | 
       | Circles over triangles.
        
       | dhosek wrote:
       | One of the nicest definitions of the six basic trig functions
       | involves drawing an ray from the origin of a unit circle with its
       | center at the origin.1 Where the ray intersects the circle at
       | point _A_ draw a vertical line perpendicular to the _x_ axis. The
       | height of the line segment from _A_ to the _x_ axis will be the
       | sine of the angle between the ray and the _x_ axis. The length of
       | the line segment from the origin to where your vertical line hits
       | the _x_ axis will be the cosine.
       | 
       | Now, draw a tangent line perpendicular to the _x_ axis and find
       | the point _B_ where your ray intersects the tangent line. The
       | length of the segment from the origin to _B_ will be the secant,
       | the length of the segment from _B_ to the _x_ axis will be the
       | tangent.2
       | 
       | Finally, draw the tangent line parallel to the _x_ axis and find
       | the intersection of the ray with that line at _C_. The length of
       | the segment from _C_ to the origin will be the cosecant and the
       | segment from the _y_ axis to _C_ will be the cotangent.
       | 
       | You can use your basic trig identities and knowledge of similar
       | triangles to verify the relationships between the functions and
       | the triangles. Angles outside the first quadrant will give signed
       | values that make sense if you consider segments going down or
       | left to be negative (but down _and_ left is positive).
       | 
       | [?]
       | 
       | 1. I'm making reference to cartesian coordinates strictly for the
       | sake of convenience since I'm using only words to describe a
       | diagram.
       | 
       | 2. I'm doing this from memory and really hoping I'm not mixing up
       | the tangent, cotangent, secant and cosecant
        
         | dhosek wrote:
         | I think I have somewhere a nice drawing of this I did in
         | Illustrator back in grad school.
        
       | salahalzoobi wrote:
       | ok
        
       | personjerry wrote:
       | Also fun exercise:
       | 
       | Go through Euclid's Elements (i.e.
       | http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/elements/bookI/bookI.html)
       | 
       | Read the definitions and then prove all the postulates yourself,
       | in order.
        
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