[HN Gopher] Ronda Rousey: "I never wanted to talk about concussion"
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Ronda Rousey: "I never wanted to talk about concussion"
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 130 points
Date : 2024-04-10 15:28 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| hnburnsy wrote:
| Lawsuit incoming?
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Against who and for what?
|
| How are serious injuries during high impact sports and
| professional fighting even treated from a legal perspective? To
| contestants sign waivers? -> "I consent to my enemy breaking my
| nose, making me lose my eye or tear off my ear."?
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Their minimization of the dangers of concussions cost the NFL
| over a billion dollars..
|
| https://www.nflconcussionsettlement.com/
| andrewstuart wrote:
| I recently found out that helmets do nothing to prevent
| concussion regardless of the sport.
|
| On another topic here is a really great video on concussion in
| MMA https://youtu.be/EU4AhFFSlLg?si=iaHawCdigvVuKkPe
| Filligree wrote:
| They still reduce the severity, right? And a single instance of
| concussion shouldn't significantly harm you. Usually.
|
| For sports, though... yeah.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| It's still a traumatic brain injury and the clinical boundary
| is fuzzy. A concussion that significantly harms you is just
| called a TBI so I guess it's denotationally correct that one
| concussion is fine. Not very reassuring though.
| hinkley wrote:
| There are two standards for bicycle helmet and the more
| stringent one was intended to prevent concussion from a fall
| from normal riding height. How that works when you hit a car at
| 15 mph I cannot say.
|
| But those are one and done helmets. The helmet destroys itself
| to save your noggin.
|
| There was talk of putting blue gel inserts into football
| helmets to provide some of that same protection but in a
| reusable form. I don't recall if those became standard though.
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| I was going to say "all helmets are one and done" -- I'm a
| cyclist and I'm so used to the community saying that you must
| replace a helmet after any impact at all -- but then I
| remembered in football you just smash helmets together all
| day and then do it again tomorrow, which seems problematic
| when you think about it.
| hinkley wrote:
| Same with baseball helmets and wild pitches.
| whartung wrote:
| > How that works when you hit a car at 15 mph I cannot say.
|
| Bicycle and motorcycle helmets are primarily designed for the
| vertical drop, not the horizontal. If we recall our basic
| physics, impacts have a vertical and horizontal component.
| The vertical drop from 6+ feet under gravity is the big
| problem. Most of the time, the horizontal force is the drag
| of someone slowing down and sliding. There's also the
| repeated impacts of tumbling to consider.
|
| A horizontal impact mitigation really isn't in the cards. A
| vertical impact from 6 feet is roughly 15mph. From 15 to
| 25MPH is almost 3 times the energy, so you can see how it can
| quickly get untenable to try to mitigate the horizontal
| impact energy of a rider striking an object.
|
| During a crash, most folks don't strike things horizontally,
| but they're pretty much guaranteed to hit the ground.
| Therefore, the helmets are designed to solve the more common
| problem and most common source of head trauma.
|
| Even though bicycle and motorcycle helmets ostensibly solve
| the same problem, i.e. melon -> concrete, motorcycle helmets
| are more robust to deal with the higher speed tumbling and
| abrasion issues that bicyclists don't really encounter. Plus
| there's a lot more potential creature comforts in a
| motorcycle helmet designed for 50MPH travel.
| hinkley wrote:
| Bike helmets used to have a thick shell like motorcycle
| helmets but they were a pain in the neck. For adoption and
| airflow we have gone to thin shells meant more to prevent
| dings and reduce some of the friction you mention. These
| helmets weigh less than half of what a Bell helmet used to
| weigh.
| chollida1 wrote:
| > I recently found out that helmets do nothing to prevent
| concussion regardless of the sport.
|
| This is false. Or you misspoke in some way.
|
| New helmet designs do indeed help prevent concussions by
| deforming to take the blow and lessen the brain movement in the
| head, hence reducing concussions.
|
| https://theathletic.com/4776016/2023/08/28/vicis-helmets-nfl...
|
| > According to the NFL and NFLPA, the safer helmet designs that
| have resulted from the innovations of VICIS and other companies
| have eliminated between 20 and 25 NFL concussions per year over
| the last five to seven seasons.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| >> According to the NFL and NFLPA, the safer helmet designs
| that have resulted from the innovations of VICIS and other
| companies have eliminated between 20 and 25 NFL concussions
| per year over the last five to seven seasons.
|
| This kind of reminds me of the genre of preschool study where
| the headline result is cutting the average number of
| incarcerations per student later in life from 6 to 4.
| JoshGG wrote:
| False. Helmets are shown to reduce concussion and other head
| injuries in sport.
|
| For example:
|
| https://ufhealth.org/news/2021/headgear-significantly-reduce...
|
| Female high school lacrosse players are significantly less
| likely to sustain concussions and other injuries if they wear
| headgear, a landmark study led by University of Florida Health
| researchers has found.
|
| Girls who play the sport in states that don't require headgear
| had a 59% higher concussion rate than players in Florida, the
| only state with a headgear mandate. The researchers also found
| lacrosse games were more hazardous than practices: Concussions
| were 74% higher during competition among players in states
| without headgear requirements when compared with Florida
| players.
|
| Those details emerged from data collected during 357,225 games
| and practices in Florida and other states during three seasons
| from 2018 to 2021. The findings were presented today at the
| American Academy of Pediatrics national conference
| aidenn0 wrote:
| 3 players on my daughter's lacrosse team are out with
| concussions. I really hope helmets get mandated; for various
| reasons nobody wants to be the only player in a helmet.
|
| [edit]
|
| I'm also glad there's data; one reason the players are
| resistant to the idea of a helmet is that they fear that
| reduced visibility would lead to increased injury.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > one reason the players are resistant to the idea of a
| helmet is that they fear that reduced visibility would lead
| to increased injury.
|
| They are definitely right about that. The point of the
| helmet is to make injuries less serious, not less frequent.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| But a 37% reduction in concussion rate (as implied by the
| Florida data) could make increased frequency of other
| injury worth it; if the effect on concussions were
| negligible, then wearing helmets would be a net-negative.
| JoshGG wrote:
| No. They do both, and that is directly shown in this
| study and in other studies. They eliminate many types of
| injury and make others less frequent.
| slg wrote:
| >I recently found out that helmets do nothing to prevent
| concussion regardless of the sport.
|
| Saying they "do nothing" isn't completely true, at least based
| off more recent designs, but it is generally true that helmets
| are less effective than most people think. The problem is that
| your brain can move around in your skull so there is only so
| much you can do by adding protection outside of your skull.
| Think of it like putting an egg in a glass jar. Adding padding
| to the outside of the jar might be enough to save the egg in a
| single drop, but it isn't going to stop the egg from breaking
| if you shake the jar.
|
| There is also the fact that safety equipment impacts behavior.
| Someone wearing a helmet is going to be more cavalier with
| their head than someone not wearing a helmet. It is possible
| this effect completely cancels out the slim benefits of a
| helmet which has caused some people to argue that a game like
| American football would actually become safer if helmets were
| outlawed. The main obstacle there is that we absolutely would
| see a rise in acute injuries like fractured skulls and those
| are tougher to ignore than the chronic brain damage that might
| take decades to reveal itself.
| rurp wrote:
| Similarly, it's a common misconception that boxing/mma gloves
| are there to make the sport safer when it's actually the
| opposite. They allow the wearer to throw many more and harder
| striks without injuring their hands, while not actually
| protecting the opponent at all.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I think you'll find there's a wide space between "do nothing to
| prevent" and "prevents all" and, depending on the sport and
| helmet design, helmets live mostly in that space.
|
| Gridiron football has large, quick people starting facing each
| other, often getting hit from the blind-side, and no helmet is
| going to prevent all (or even most) concussions in those
| situations, which is part of why the NFL has (very belatedly)
| attempted to address things with rules changes.
|
| Sports that involve being intentionally hit in the head
| repeatedly (like MMA or boxing) are going to be much worse. You
| still see people wearing helmets in friendly sparring matches
| for those sports because it can prevent freak-accident
| concussions that happen in such a context.
| martinky24 wrote:
| This is wildly misinformed, and I'm curious of your "source". I
| presume it's nowhere near as reputable as stuff coming out of
| places such as the VA Tech Helmet Lab.
| ben7799 wrote:
| This depends on the level of hit that the sport causes, how
| often it happens, and the type of helmet and the design goals
| of that helmet.
|
| A motorcycle helmet or auto racing helmet will do a much better
| job at preventing a concussion than a football helmet and is
| designed for bigger hits against harder surfaces.
|
| But no one wants to replace a motorsports style helmet after
| every play that causes a hit on the helmet in a football game.
| Hence they wear football helmets, which are designed to be much
| less protective for a single large hit but to be able to
| protect against sustained smaller hits.
|
| Realistically I think this is the elephant in the room for
| football. The NFL could afford to have each player go through
| hundreds of helmets a season and they would be well protected.
| But as soon as the NFL admitted that was needed everyone would
| demand it for college and high school, and it would be too
| expensive and fewer people would play football.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| You are absolutely right, at least as it relates to combat
| sports.
|
| Getting punched in the head is pretty unpleasant, so you try to
| avoid it - but with headgear on the sting dulled significantly
| - it hurts less but your brain is still absorbing a huge amount
| of that energy. This makes fighters take more shots to the head
| than otherwise, and this is why english amateur boxing rules
| now have removed headguards.
| hinkley wrote:
| I've taken close to ten years' of martial arts training, but I
| don't watch MMA because the judges consistently allow about two
| more head strikes than necessary before intervening. In a lot of
| the footage I have seen, that's going from 2-3 to 4-5 which is
| egregious. Every single takedown ends up looking like a boxer
| getting trapped in the corner and massacred, and I don't like
| those either. In fact I think boxing ring corners should be
| treated like fouls in baseball and count toward a TKO.
|
| In MMA, if someone's head is bouncing off the mat then you should
| be grabbing the opponent's elbow immediately.
| djtango wrote:
| It's really hard to call - see how much push back you also get
| from fighters when the ref calls it too early and so much
| stakes are on the line.
|
| Some extra awareness will hopefully help
| acover wrote:
| Fighters will try to hide broken arms and try to continue the
| fight.
| hinkley wrote:
| Adrenaline makes you stupid. And fighters may be using PEDs
| that make them even dumber.
|
| We didn't catch Lance Armstrong using PEDs for something
| like eight years.
| freedomben wrote:
| Adrenaline does make you stupid, but years of training
| makes you smart. The reason you train so intensively is
| that when the adrenaline is up you will fall back to
| muscle memory.
|
| They're not being stupid by continuing the fight and
| trying to hide injuries. They are trying to get a w
| instead of an l, and sometimes that just means you need
| to keep the fight going another minute or two until the
| time is up. That can literally mean the difference
| between having a successful career and retiring with a
| mediocre record. It can be the difference between a shot
| at the world title, versus being on the free undercard
| fights. Fights. They are making a calculation, and
| probably the same one I would make in their same
| situation. It is very easy to look back on the reckless
| youth as being stupid. Fortunately, I have enough
| recording of myself from that era to see that I actually
| had thought it through pretty well, I just didn't realize
| how bad it could be in the future. But, if I had a world
| title under my belt, none of my current maladies would
| feel nearly as bad :-D
| hinkley wrote:
| We train the fighters to go until the ref tells you to
| stop, for similar reasons to what you already
| illustrated. Which is why I blame the refs and the
| committee. They know exactly what goes through your head
| when you're in a fight and it's their job to keep your
| opponent relatively safe. And they aren't, which is why I
| don't watch.
|
| But wanting to continue when even your coach knows it's
| over is a kind of pressure sale situation. You're in the
| moment and sort of trapped, and having a concussion and a
| brain full of adrenaline makes you have even worse
| judgement.
| freedomben wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| I blame the committee, only partially the refs since the
| refs aren't makign the rules.
|
| To be clear my disagreement was with the parent that said
| adrenaline made the fighters stupid.
| thefaux wrote:
| What is the deeper meaning of being a world champion
| fighter? I pursued a risky sport for many years myself
| until I was struck by the utter hollowness of it. How
| would my winning benefit anyone besides me? What was the
| purpose beyond self exaltation? How was this the best use
| of my short time on earth?
|
| For me, I can hardly think of a worse use of a life than
| fighting for sport. There is not a single fighter on
| earth I would trade places with. Not one.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| What sport? Simply asking out of curiosity?
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| *As Saladin* Nothing... Everything.
|
| What's the deeper meaning of getting heart disease and
| myopia by sitting at a computer learning how to be a good
| programmer?
|
| What's the deeper meaning of doing anything? It's all
| temporary vanity. In a million years, even the Pyramids
| will have worn away!
|
| It's all ships in bottles to keep us busily interested
| til we die. :D
| djtango wrote:
| It's inspiring.
|
| When I consider how Naoya Inoue fought 11 rounds with a
| broken orbital socket I am profoundly inspired by the
| heart he demonstrated and his will to win - his focus and
| his skill to change strategy mid fight.
|
| It's easy to handwave his ability to fight through pain
| thanks to adrenaline... until you try it for yourself.
|
| It's inspiring to know just how much we can overcome
| ourselves if we want something enough.
| itishappy wrote:
| You gotta be pretty far down the nihilism hole to wonder
| about the deeper meaning behind being a world class
| athlete.
|
| My girlfriend was a martial arts trainer for a few years,
| and many of the girls she worked with cited Ronda
| specifically as their inspiration. They're not competing,
| this is a hobby, but they're doing it because they were
| inspired by people like Ronda.
|
| I just envy their discipline...
|
| I have to ask, what's your ideal life look like?
| bumby wrote:
| Sometimes the process is an end in itself. A constant
| focus on "what's this good for?" can turn into a toxic,
| hollow mindset itself. Taken to an extreme, everything
| becomes just a stepping stone to a final action of death,
| which makes the practice of living rather pointless.
| Oliver Burkeman has some good thoughts on how to get out
| of that mindset.
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| Obviously PEDs are bad but IMO non-falsifiable
| accusations about athletes using them are uninteresting.
| You can always claim (and someone usually is) that an
| athlete is dirty and just hasn't been caught yet for some
| reason.
|
| Slightly off-topic though; you're acknowledging that they
| might contribute which isn't unfair here.
| silverquiet wrote:
| I assume that all professional athletes are on PEDs of
| some sort (I read awhile back that essentially all tennis
| players are on some heart medication that is allowed and
| they probably don't all have a heard condition). I don't
| think they care about what is legal, just what is
| detectible. The incentives are just too big for them to
| abstain.
| hinkley wrote:
| I think there's a loophole with endurance athletes and
| asthma medication as well. But I would not immediately
| think, "mood or judgement altering" there.
|
| We are still looking at whether over the counter pain
| killers are mood altering substances. I've seen
| circumstantial evidence of this in myself. (Though I
| don't think I'd want me or a friend to fight on
| painkillers - reduced coagulation and bruises are no
| joke).
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| You're maybe thinking of Meldonium, which is banned. The
| drug was developed in the 1970s and is a very common OTC
| sale in eastern Europe. It was banned in 2016 when WADA
| decided it was possible it could be able to act as a
| performance enhancer. Maria Sharapova, a tennis champion,
| made the news later that year when she tested positive,
| and received a two year ban which was later shortened
| when the court determined she had originally started
| taking it years ago in good faith on a doctor's
| recommendation. About two hundred other athletes from
| eastern Europe across different sports received positive
| tests shortly after the ban as well, a lot of which were
| reversed when it turned out they were detecting use from
| 2015 (it takes months after use for it to stop showing on
| tests).
| silverquiet wrote:
| That is indeed what I was thinking of, but I remember
| that she was also on other drugs that were approved (and
| she was not alone in that).
| btilly wrote:
| My view is this.
|
| Suppose that there are enhancement drugs. They work, and
| a lot of competitors are using them. Then it becomes far
| more believable that the current champion is enhanced and
| has managed to hide it, than that someone who is not
| enhanced has miraculously managed to beat the entire
| field of people who have such a big advantage.
|
| My view lead to me being certain about Lance Armstrong
| years before he was caught.
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| I agree, given "they work" and "a lot of competitors are
| using them", the rest follows logically. But those
| assumptions are simplistic, they do some very heavy
| lifting and are typically presented without evidence.
|
| The most effective doping agents are often the easiest to
| detect, and modern anti-doping programs like the
| biological passport and whereabouts program are very
| effective. It's no reason to be complicit -- the science
| continues to evolve, athletes who go awry will continue
| to get caught, and athletes who follow the rules will
| continue to have to work hard to stay within the
| boundaries (it is not trivial to stay within WADA
| guidelines even as an amateur athlete; a lot of people
| who get medical treatment for a common issue would
| violate the rules a few times over without realizing it).
|
| But to look at an entire sport and disregard them all as
| cheaters without evidence does nothing but encourage
| young athletes to feel like they need to risk their
| health in order to compete and belittle the
| accomplishments of clean athletes. We need to hold
| cheaters accountable, not throw in the towel.
| btilly wrote:
| Is there any reason to doubt that performance enhancing
| drugs enhance performance? The science on that has been
| clear for decades. It would make no sense for people to
| give a list of citations on such a well-known fact every
| time.
|
| I agree that "a lot of competitors are using them" is an
| assumption. In the case of Lance Armstrong, so many other
| bikers had been caught before him that it was no longer
| an assumption. But that does vary by sport.
|
| I entirely dismiss the argument that our tests catch
| cheaters. There have just been too many examples over the
| years of athletes getting away with cheating for years.
| At this point the burden of proof is on those who think
| we're catching them. In fact as articles like
| https://www.shu.ac.uk/news/all-articles/features-and-
| comment... show, anonymous surveys show that most
| athletes are getting away with it.
|
| All that said, I agree on holding cheaters accountable.
| And think we should go farther. If someone who trains
| with you gets caught, you should also be punished. On the
| assumption that there is a chance you were just not
| caught, and if you weren't doping, you likely knew and
| didn't tell. That would create social pressure to not put
| your teammates at jeopardy. And I think THAT would
| finally end cheating.
| chrisfosterelli wrote:
| > Is there any reason to doubt that performance enhancing
| drugs enhance performance?
|
| Haha no, definitely not. For clarity, we're talking about
| banned substances, which isn't always the same thing as
| performance enhancing drugs. It is actually debated
| whether a lot of the WADA banned substances are
| performance enhancing drugs; but WADA would rather
| athletes don't take things that could be harmful to them
| because they _might_ enhance performance so they tend to
| err on the side of adding things they worry about or have
| evidence of athletes abusing.
|
| Moreso, I mean that it's simplistic to assume that the
| type and amount of illegal substances you can get away
| with while skirting an increasingly aggressive testing
| framework will be sufficient to be the world champion.
| There's a risk tradeoff here and a million variables in
| high performance training -- athletes put their entire
| career on the line when they take banned substances and
| get no guarantee of return. Take the recent case of
| Collin Chartier in triathlon: reached #14 in the world,
| started doping over the off season, caught within a few
| months of use, and career is now over.
|
| > In the case of Lance Armstrong, so many other bikers
| had been caught before him that it was no longer an
| assumption.
|
| Right, and once they're caught, they're banned. They are
| no longer a "competitor who is using them". Your logic
| makes an assumption that the population that is left just
| hasn't been caught yet, rather than that their negative
| tests actually indicate a lack of doping. And that is an
| assumption.
|
| > anonymous surveys show that most athletes are getting
| away with it
|
| These surveys come up with numbers showing anywhere
| between 1% and 70% of athletes have consumed a banned
| substance. Remember that weed is a WADA banned substance
| that 50% of the US population has tried. These studies
| are glorified guesses that vary depending on the wording
| they use.
| hinkley wrote:
| Greg LeMond has evolved into my Fred Rogers of athletics.
| Every time either of them is in the news my first thought
| was, "please don't be bad news".
|
| The fact that Greg was such a brittle rider - a god one
| day and barely finishing another - gave me hope that he
| was legit. The fact that he has focused in retirement on
| cheating cemented that for me.
|
| Last I heard he was trying to watchdog riders sneaking
| small electric motors into their bikes. Even 50 watts is
| a lot of boost for a cyclist.
| djtango wrote:
| Jeez I can kind of overlook PEDs insofar as you're still
| kind of the one doing the training and the race but
| sticking a motor into your bike - like what even is the
| point anymore.
|
| Why not bring a gun to an MMA fight while they're at it
| too
| The_Colonel wrote:
| The point for (many/most) is to get the sweet victory,
| get rich and famous. It doesn't matter if you cheated or
| not, your ape brain will find reasons why you deserved to
| win anyway.
| 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
| They might also just be trying not to lose their career
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| They aren't stupid they're just trying to make a career
| of it. Even though I think more work needs to be done on
| this issue, I do understand how things got this way.
| reaperman wrote:
| Which PEDs make them dumber?
| hinkley wrote:
| Anything that affects the adrenals reduces higher order
| thinking.
|
| And steroids make you not only dumber but more violent.
| reaperman wrote:
| This is refuted by Chapter 3[0] ("Violence") of the book
| "Testosterone" by Rebecca M. Jordan-Young and Katrina
| Karkazis.
|
| Scientific American agrees[1] that violence is not
| correlated with testosterone:
|
| > _" When aggression is more narrowly defined as simple
| physical violence, the connection between [testosterone
| and violence] all but disappears."_
|
| Another study finds higher testosterone promotes pro-
| social behavior[2].
|
| Personally I've found that rather than androgens being a
| mediator of violence, estrogen seems to be a much
| powerful inhibitor of rage/violence-potential. Low
| estrogen causes particularly difficult-to-control
| emotions. Generally when someone is taking high amounts
| of steroids they are likely also taking anti-estrogens
| (blocking testosterone's conversion to estradiol).
|
| This low estradiol, _due to another drug, not steroids_
| seems to be what most often causes violent emotional
| dysregulation. Generally not testosterone or other
| androgens without anti-estrogens.
|
| Perhaps my TRT is making me extremely dumb though ;-)
|
| 0: https://lithub.com/it-turns-out-theres-not-a-lot-of-
| science-...
|
| 1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-
| but-true-....
|
| 2: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosteron
| e_anim...
| Sheeny96 wrote:
| > PEDs that make them even dumber.
|
| Tell me that you have no idea about physiology without
| telling me.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I think the argument is that if you can't defend against 3
| head shots in quick succession, you've lost, period. As in,
| that should be a statutory definition of losing a match.
|
| It would change the strategy of the sport, but it may help
| prevent brain damage over time.
| hinkley wrote:
| Pretty much my sentiment. In a bar fight with no friends
| acting as referees, these rapid head shots could easily be
| a precursor to a 3rd or even 2nd degree murder charge.
| You're not going for a win anymore, you're trying to
| inflict permanent damage.
| matwood wrote:
| Fighters need to be protected here regardless of what they
| think. You can find videos of people being put completely to
| sleep, waking up, and going right back to fighting like
| nothing happened. They are unaware they were even put out.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > It's really hard to call - see how much push back you also
| get from fighters when the ref calls it too early and so much
| stakes are on the line.
|
| What would make sense would just be to disallow head strikes.
| Hit your opponent in the head and forfeit.
|
| Or you could go in the other direction, and let fights be to
| the death.
|
| What's the benefit of the middle ground? If you want to see
| what works in a fight, it's crippling the other guy. If you
| don't want people to be crippled, you probably shouldn't
| allow crippling them in the future either.
| adrian_b wrote:
| There are several sets of rules of kickboxing variants that
| do not allow any kind of head strikes, but they are not
| popular. I agree that such rules are the only acceptable
| with the exception of the matches between professionals who
| are fully aware of the risks, but who are willing to risk
| their health against an appropriate compensation.
|
| Among the sets of rules that allow head strikes,
| traditional boxing is the worst.
|
| It is much more dangerous than any kind of kickboxing or
| MMA, because the boxers have few methods to defend
| themselves and few other means of winning, except by a
| knockout that is easiest to achieve by a head strike. Even
| during the Greek antiquity, pancration (i.e. MMA) was
| considered to have a much lower risk of injury than
| pugilism (i.e. boxing).
| djtango wrote:
| TIL pankration had striking...
|
| But they distinguished between that and stand up striking
| aka pugilism? Though the latter is a Latin word hmm
|
| I'd be very uninterested by non head striking martial
| arts.
|
| Martial Arts is a search for truth. It's not _only_ about
| fighting as it is also about discipline, self
| improvement, peace, community and some spritualism
|
| But if you care about combat them you have to fight/spar.
| No point pretending taichi is a combat skill if no one in
| two generations or more have applied it practically.
|
| MMA is the closest we can get to a controlled safe arena
| to facilitate that search for truth.
|
| Do what works. Love him or hate him, the Conor McGregor
| shoulder punch was a great moment of reminding people
| that the spirit of MMA should be formless.
|
| For that reason I find it frustrating that UFC has banned
| 12oclock elbows and football kicks and grounded knees.
| Not because I want to see people's heads getting smashed
| but because the obvious desire to not get struck by those
| would promote less risky takedowns and would probably
| make the sport less wrestling dominant.
| adrian_b wrote:
| Most ancient Greek games, including the Olympic Games,
| had 3 separate competitions of combat sports, wrestling,
| pankration and pugilism. Some people competed in more
| than one of them, so pugilism was usually scheduled to be
| the last of the 3, because otherwise those injured in
| pugilism would not have been able to compete in the
| following competition.
|
| Pankration allowed striking, kicking, wrestling and
| submission grappling, so it was very similar to the MMA
| of today.
|
| However, the pankration fighters did not bandage their
| hands with leather straps, like the pugilists, so they
| were not able to hit as hard the head of the opponent.
|
| Moreover, they had plenty of other options for winning a
| match, so striking was not as emphasized as in pugilism,
| which remains true today in MMA vs. boxing.
| NegativeK wrote:
| I don't think that sports that pay people to suffer violence
| should have a place in modern society.
|
| I know that this would ruin multiple billion dollar
| industries as we know them (boxing, MMA, gridiron football,
| more), so nothing substantive will change, but in my opinion
| there's a grotesque conflict when we're paying people to put
| up with TBIs, broken bones, et cetera.
|
| There are sports where violence and injury are clearly not
| the goal but aren't negligible, such as racecar drivers and
| baseball pitchers, and I don't know how to approach those --
| but violence as sport seems far more clear cut.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I don't understand why they don't use more gear, like
| helmets, and perhaps disallow head strikes and other
| dangerous moves like in other martial arts tournaments. It
| seems like the brutality is the point. Then again, the NFL
| has concussion issues but they aren't trying to punch each
| other. In any case, it seems toxic to allow this violence
| for sport.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Headgear is used in some combat sports, including Olympic
| boxing. It makes the head a bigger target, which means
| the head gets hit more. Those strikes may be less severe,
| since they're cushioned. But taking more hits is bad.
|
| There certainly are sports that ban head strikes. Certain
| forms of karate, for instance. Fight fans _like_ seeing
| heads get punched, and they like seeing knock outs.
| There's not currently a very big market that wants to see
| fighting without head strikes.
| NegativeK wrote:
| > Fight fans _like_ seeing heads get punched, and they
| like seeing knock outs.
|
| I think that's a huge symptom of my point. You can strip
| out tackles from football and make MMA way safer, but the
| large MMA competitions are popular because they're closer
| to two people doing whatever they can to win a fight than
| something more restrictive, like karate or wrestling. As
| you mention, the fans will be pissed at safening the
| sport, and I'd almost bet money that the vast majority of
| the fighters would be pissed as well -- just like I've
| seen plenty of coworkers and workers in other industries
| get angry at OSHA regulations, even the ones that are as
| ridiculously straightforward as labeling the bottle of
| formaldehyde so someone doesn't spritz it around a
| clinic.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| I think people have different thresholds to watching
| violence, and there's a spectrum from cartoon violence to
| street fights to war footage. My mom doesn't like to see
| punching, even in cartoon form. I enjoy everything as
| long as it's consensual, fair, and well compensated (so
| not street fights).
|
| The most common preference is somewhere between a Captain
| America movie and a John Wick movie, I think.
|
| Folks who can't stand to see real violence wish it just
| didn't happen, the way I wish street fights didn't
| happen. But you're not gonna get anywhere offering what
| an MMA fan understand as an inferior product. And the MMA
| fans know there's karate and wrestling and BJJ to watch,
| they just aren't as interested in it.
|
| I don't try to rationalize it much. I know most people,
| especially in the circles I'm in, can't stand to look at
| it. I don't mind that.
|
| The idea that society has moved past the need for violent
| spectacle or something just doesn't work for me, because
| I enjoy the sport. And plenty of other people do, too
|
| Fighters for the most part are going to do what will make
| them the most money. If the fans are there for knockouts,
| they're gonna go for knockouts. If BJJ tournaments
| offered the same money making opportunities that MMA
| does, a bunch of fighters would very happily switch
| winphone1974 wrote:
| It doesn't have to be this way though. Women's basketball
| doesn't have as much violent contact as the men's game
| but is a better spectator sport IMO. women's hockey is
| also great without the crushing blows and no fights. Flag
| football is fun to watch as it's all about the offense
| and big defensive plays, not the crippling Hits. Aussie
| rules football has hitting but nothing like rugby or
| American football and it's a superior experience for the
| fans. I like the NFL and UFC but there are options if you
| don't.
| Delk wrote:
| The thing is, some people _like_ full contact sports. And
| not just watching them but doing them. If you stripped
| tackles out of football or body checks out of ice hockey,
| that would make it a different sport, not just for the
| spectators but (much more importantly) for the athletes.
| Nobody makes it to a high level in a sport without
| actually wanting to do that particular one.
|
| Full contact but restricted martial arts also exist and
| mitigate risks by limiting the range of allowed
| techniques. Some of them do it in different ways than
| others. Judo is full-contact but disallows strikes, which
| makes it massively different than something with strikes.
| Semi-contact karate avoids the full-contact part, which
| makes it different in a different way.
|
| Full contact practically always comes with risks, and
| full contact with fewer restrictions comes at much
| greater ones. Spectator expectations or other parts of
| culture may encourage the athletes to take risks and go
| to greater lengths than they otherwise would. But it's
| difficult for me to agree that modern society should have
| no place for sports that mentally healthy people actually
| want to participate in just because it comes with a risk
| of physical injury or intentional roughness. If they
| wanted to participate in a different sport, they'd have
| options.
|
| In the end it's of course a matter of where to draw the
| line. Rather few people would nowadays want to allow
| fights to the death even if the participants wanted that.
| (Although, in reality, I don't think such a sport would
| get that many willing and actually voluntary participants
| either.)
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| You are right, brutality is the point, it is what sells.
| It would be much less appealing for large amount of
| crowds to have everyone in soft helmets with no stakes.
| It appeals to a certain set of raw desire that humans
| have within them, shaped by natural selection.
| nradov wrote:
| Violence is part of the human condition. I find it bizarre
| and disturbing that some people are so cut off from this
| reality that they want to artificially eliminate violence
| altogether.
| criddell wrote:
| Would you have a problem with modern gladiator games
| where combatants fight to the death?
|
| If so, then you agree with the person you responded to,
| you just want to draw the line in a different place.
| winphone1974 wrote:
| I don't think I have a problem with the concept, but do
| with someone who feels this is their only option,
| organizers making money off of this and viewers who would
| demand this and pay for it. Individuals taking extreme
| personal risks? No problem with that.
| NegativeK wrote:
| > so cut off from this reality
|
| That feels like an ad hominem, but I'll focus on what I
| think your point is.
|
| I don't really have a problem with amateur MMA, etc. But
| paying people for violence as a sport isn't just
| acknowledging it; it's encouraging it. And it's
| encouraging athletes to push themselves into injury, some
| of which is life destroying.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If paying people to fight is not artificial violence,
| what possibly could be?
| hinkley wrote:
| To be clear, I'm not claiming to be a martial arts expert, just
| that I _should_ be in their target demographic and why I am
| not.
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| I think that being a practitioner of the sport has less to do
| with being in the target marketing demographic than you might
| otherwise imagine.
|
| Their target demographic is people who will pay to see a
| violent spectacle. There are certainly people who find
| violence thrilling in martial arts, but there are a lot of
| people who have never done any training, who are uninterested
| in learning that running away is your best defense or how to
| de-escalate a tense situation, who have a credit card and
| want to see someone get punched in the face until they're
| bloody. That's who MMA producers and refs are targeting, not
| you.
|
| I'm a kiteboarder and a skier. Do you think that the stores
| with Dakine luggage or North Face jackets at the mall (which
| feature prominently-placed posters of people kiteboarding and
| skiing) are really intended for me? No, they're intended for
| people who wish to send social signals that they are wealthy,
| stylish and adventurous.
|
| It's the same with (a subset of) Nascar fans - Many are
| uninterested in karting time trials that might be more
| approachable to more amateur participants in motorsports, but
| they'll on the TV every Sunday hoping to see a big crash, and
| the same with (a subset of) NFL and NHL fans - they just want
| to see someone's head bounce off the turf/ice.
|
| That spectacle is what's for sale, it makes money in a way
| that 10 years of patient practice does not.
| djtango wrote:
| I find UFC a bit crass and I've definitely lost interest in
| it over the years.
|
| I prefer ONE which feels a bit more pure. I like how they
| promote mutual respect between contestants and some of the
| highlight reels celebrate restraint (look up Xiong maybe).
|
| Combine that with their same approach to cutting weight and
| I think they're a much classier promotion.
|
| Sometimes UFC and boxing feels like soaps for male
| dominated fangroups. But boxing is just so beautiful
| sometimes
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| That's the McGregor effect. Both the fighters and the org
| realized that they get a lot more sponsorships and
| audience with the WWE drama. Most fighters have a short
| and injury prone career so I don't blame them for trying
| to make some money. There are still plenty of fighters
| who don't take part in the nonsense
| matwood wrote:
| Yeah, I love BJJ and rarely watch MMA. Striking just isn't
| that interesting to me. Give me a submission only BJJ match
| and I'll watch the whole thing though. But, I've also been
| training for years so I understand all the intricate
| movement that's happening.
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| ...and then there's always Rollerball
| hinkley wrote:
| You're probably right. I'll sometimes watch videos for
| local or regional competitions, or particularly noteworthy
| ones from larger events, but have zero interest in high
| production value footage.
| matwood wrote:
| I agree that MMA allows too many punches, but it is better than
| what happens in boxing. One solid punch in an MMA fight usually
| ends it. The refs should be faster at getting there, but that's
| better than people who get to beat to a twilight in boxing, but
| never quite get knocked out.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| The fans get pissy when they end the fight "too early". Just
| look at the comments after Pereira VS Prochazka. Some
| fighters do come back up after a beating and have an amazing
| resilience (to their long term health detriment)
| dylan604 wrote:
| If this wasn't the case, the entire Rocky franchise
| wouldn't have a premise.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I could see it working with boxing treating someone trapped in
| the corner as a knockdown (1 point deduction) and moving them
| back to the middle. Nothing will truly prevent concussions in
| heavyweight fights though, a single punch coming from an
| unexpected angle can be enough there.
| hinkley wrote:
| I don't think it will prevent concussion but it might prevent
| career ending fights.
|
| Some guys would be proud of ending someone's career but it
| doesn't sit well with everyone. And a couple people have died
| after a fight. I don't know of any stories where the other
| fighter felt anything but terrible about it.
| jtriangle wrote:
| I've taken to just watching pure BJJ for that reason. Much more
| intricate, still violent, but, because there's no striking you
| don't see that many head injuries.
| psychlops wrote:
| > judges consistently allow about two more head strikes than
| necessary
|
| I don't agree that consistently is the right word. I've
| certainly seen more extra hits than necessary, but good refs
| step in fast and with authority. Perhaps you watched lower rank
| fights with less experienced refs?
| harimau777 wrote:
| I place equal blame on the fighters who keep throwing punches
| at someone who is obviously out. If they don't have the self
| control to stop then they have no business learning martial
| arts.
| lostdog wrote:
| There have been a few cases where someone looked out, the
| fighter stopped throwing punches, and got knocked out
| themselves. That's why it's common to keep going until the
| ref stops the fight.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Big armchair energy on this one. In practice in a high stakes
| high adrenaline competition neither party is very able to
| keep track of their opponent's (or sometimes even their own!)
| physical & mental state with this degree of finesse.
|
| Combat sports are an ancient discipline existing across
| distinct and varied human cultures and every mature form
| acknowledges this constraint by having a third party to
| referee the match.
| harimau777 wrote:
| If they want to call it "combat sports" then that's fine.
| If they want to call it "martial arts", then part of that
| title is self control. Any of the times that I've fought I
| was expected to be in control of myself and stop if
| necessary.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Yeah sensei, you're expected to stop when necessary.
| You're not expected to determine _when_ it is necessary
| to stop, that responsibility falls on the referee during
| competition.
| Rapzid wrote:
| Well the discipline is referred to as "mixed martial
| arts" AKA MMA. And the relevant definition of "martial"
| is "of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior".
|
| I'm not sure your distinction has any material
| significance here. As others have pointed out, the
| referee is there to stop the fight and the fighters are
| trained to continue until the such a time.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| Yeah. In war it's either you kill or you will be killed,
| so what do you expect in something that is meant to
| simulate that.
| Sheeny96 wrote:
| It's up to the referee. UFC fighters get half their money as
| a win bonus, and the lower ranked fighters on the card can be
| earning 6k show, 6k win, fighting 3 or 4 times a year. With
| the costs of training, sports nutrition etc etc, that win
| bonus can be the difference between feeding their family or
| not, and many of them come from poor backgrounds so know what
| that feels like. A fighter isnt going to take that chance and
| stop when the referee hasnt stepped in, and give their
| opponent oppertunity to recover.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| That's not how it works. There are plenty of examples where a
| fighter faked being hurt or they recovered quickly .
| "Obviously out" is very rare.
| Delk wrote:
| This may be different than being out, but I also don't
| think it's rare to see a fighter only make glancing blows
| at a downed opponent. Sometimes it's obvious they don't
| actually try and hit hard at that point any more, and are
| rather avoiding making real blows at a defenceless
| opponent, although they do obviously want to secure the win
| so they don't just stop in their tracks.
| bumby wrote:
| > _they have no business learning martial arts_
|
| Let's not fool ourselves. They are mainly prize fighters,
| despite the "martial arts" name of the sport.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Yeah, I train Muay Thai and I've never gotten into watching MMA
| for similar reasons. I don't even really like all the
| "entertainment" Muay Thai with 4oz gloves that One has been
| promoting, it feels like they really want the blood and higher
| risk of injury to draw a crowd. I recently was watching some
| more traditional, older Muay Thai fights with a friend who
| doesn't train, and they found it somewhat boring, probably
| because they're not seeing what someone that has trained is
| seeing. In entertainment Muay Thai I've seen refs let knees to
| the head slide when it's clear the person is already knocked
| out and they're on their way to the canvas.
|
| Recently there was an interview with Takrowlek Dejrat [1] and
| he talks about how defense was something that they spent a lot
| of time with first as kids training, which is different than
| this generation of fighters. Which I find to be true in my own
| training, I often feel like working on defense is something we
| only drill as an after-thought to offense.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsDfdeQ5iRM
| djtango wrote:
| The old way was very slow. You don't rock the boat in rd 1 or
| 2 and the winner is known by rd 5 and the "victor" takes the
| foot off the pedal to assert dominance.
|
| Then there is a somewhat mutual respect and understanding
| between fighters that while they want to win they don't want
| to get injured cos back then people may be fighting weekly.
| None of this 3 month fight camp and skipping and ducking
| fights for years that people like Mayweather did.
|
| And then I never quite understood why but once everything was
| rigged by gambling circuits it all became very clinch
| dominant.
|
| Not to mention that the traditional scoring also does not
| favour muay mat (punchers).
|
| Chatri wants to make martial arts more entertaining because
| no one wants to see people just pull guard in BJJ or grab
| each other's legs in Judo. And why should only practitioners
| of Boxing see these huge purses when Buakaw and Saenchai
| stayed essentially poor.
|
| Also very traditional muay thai/boran fights were done with
| kard cheuk anyway which aren't much different from those 4oz
| gloves...
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Yeah, the need to fight weekly definitely had a lot to do
| with the style back then. As for the gambling circuits, my
| trainer once told me that the bookmakers didn't like
| surprise knockouts that could mess up their numbers, so
| rules and style changed. Maybe that has something to do
| with clinch being dominant, you certainly could get taken
| out with an elbow or knee in the clinch, but maybe less so.
| I do love watching old Petchboonchu fights though, it's
| amazing watching him clinch.
|
| That's fair about kard cheuk being like the 4oz gloves,
| I've seen some fights with them, but like you said hands
| never scored as high, whereas One scores things equal these
| days iirc.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| I don't know that 4oz gloves are the problem. Boxers have
| more brain damage if anything and they wear 10oz for their
| fights. Gloves protect the hands and wrists and your face
| from cuts I feel like
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Bigger gloves are useful for defense. You can catch a lot
| with big gloves that you can't with little ones.
|
| What's gonna matter most is how the athletes train, how
| hard they get hit in sparring. A very long professional
| career might be 30-50 fights, but that's thousands of hours
| of training. If you're spending much of that sparring hard,
| even if you don't get many concussions, the cte is going to
| build up
| sebastiennight wrote:
| What's the "cte"?
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encepha
| lop...
| YawningAngel wrote:
| Chronic traumatic encephalopathy
| slingnow wrote:
| Are you seriously telling me that a sport that allows elbow
| and knee strikes to the head has become more dangerous
| because they reduced the weight of the gloves? Have you
| thought about this for a second?
|
| And the mention of your "untrained" friend being unable to
| enjoy a traditional Muay Thai fight the way _you_ can just
| reeks of some kind of odd elitism. My guess is you saw a
| topic about fighting on HN and couldn't wait to tell us all
| that you trained.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Punches didn't score as high in older Muay Thai, whereas
| they score equally under One rules. So you didn't see as
| much straight hand striking in golden age fights. They
| certainly used them, but they didn't count towards your
| points as much.
|
| With 4oz gloves you don't have as much to work with in your
| guard, so punches can slip through a lot easier. On the
| other hand they protect the hand less, so some fighters are
| more apprehensive throwing with them on. The small gloves
| definitely feel like they leave a lot more repeated damage
| to the face, whereas a clean headkick is probably going to
| result in a KO. Obviously neither are great if we're
| talking about concussions!
|
| I can only speak from my own experience, but I never
| enjoyed watching fights until I started training. Once I
| started training and began understanding the rule set, I
| started seeing what was going on. I don't think that's
| controversial, when you have experience in something your
| eyes are a little more open. Watching and training is for
| everyone though! Nothing elite about it all, just a lot of
| showing up and putting in the work. It's definitely the
| hardest thing I've ever done physically.
| pxc wrote:
| > And the mention of your "untrained" friend being unable
| to enjoy a traditional Muay Thai fight the way _you_ can
| just reeks of some kind of odd elitism.
|
| It's a pretty common thing. Sometimes highly technical
| music doesn't have that appealing an aesthetic to the
| average person, but to other musicians it's very impressive
| because of how hard it is to play, or how unusual it is on
| a theoretical level. There's lots of stuff in life that's
| like that. Isn't the appeal of most spectator sports partly
| buoyed by memories people have of playing those sports as
| kids or young adults?
|
| I don't think it's hard to believe at all, nor elitist.
| Everyone has things they'll notice more details about
| because they have experience with them.
| runjake wrote:
| Some points:
|
| - The judges just score the match and sit outside the ring.
| They do not have the power to stop a fight. The referee is
| supposed to intervene.
|
| - It's a common misconception that fight referees belong to the
| UFC. For fights, an athletic commission is responsible for
| refereeing. In most fights, this is the Nevada State Athletic
| Commission.
|
| - The UFC has been quite vocal and registered many formal
| complaints with NSAC when a referee allowed too many punches
| before stopping a fight. There was that referee that I'll only
| mention by first name, so I don't get sued: Steve.
|
| - It is my opinion that professional MMA fighters need some
| sort of independent organization that oversees their well-being
| and assures they get proper medical care. It should be funded
| from fight profits. Things like what's happened to Spencer
| Fisher should not be happening.
| logro wrote:
| > an athletic commission is responsible for refereeing
|
| This sounds a bit like a distancing attempt.
|
| Surely those referees follow the rules of UFC. So ultimately
| UFC is responsible no matter which entity enforces the rules.
| bumby wrote:
| > _Surely those referees follow the rules of UFC._
|
| I may be wrong, but I think it's the other way around. The
| commission sets the rules and hires the referees to enforce
| them. Dana White has be openly critical of certain referees
| and made it clear he'd fire them if he could. The UFC must
| follow the rules of the commission. I believe that's why
| some past fights could only occur in certain jurisdictions,
| and with modified rules. The unified rules of MMA are set
| by commission voters, not the UFC [1].
|
| [1] https://www.ufc.com/unified-rules-mixed-martial-
| arts?languag...
| lagniappe wrote:
| You have it reversed.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| No, UFC follows the rules of the relevant athletic
| commission and they only use referees (and judges, and
| timekeepers, etc.) licensed in that jurisdiction. UFC
| famously moved a fight from NV to CA because NV wouldn't
| license Jon Jones to fight after a drug test: https://www.e
| spn.com/mma/story/_/id/25603991/ufc-232-moved-l...
|
| "Unified rules of MMA" were developed at the state athletic
| commission level (NJ maybe?), but not everywhere implements
| them: https://www.mmafighting.com/2019/4/16/18358920/abc-
| survey-at....
|
| The ending of one fight in TX had betting implications
| because of their odd rules.
| https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/6/21/23177038/texas-
| commiss...
| Gibson_v1 wrote:
| "Unified Rules" is followed by MMA organizations in the
| USA. It's a set of rules most state athletic commissions
| have agreed on over the years. It is a horrendous rule set
| and judging system for MMA.
| lagniappe wrote:
| steve mazzagatti
|
| - https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-some-worst-calls-
| steve-...
|
| - https://www.mmafighting.com/2013/8/22/4644264/on-official-
| is...
| sfjailbird wrote:
| I always wondered why he was not refereeing anymore.
| Instead, he now sits as a ringside official. I guess he
| failed up.
| soared wrote:
| Coaches can also stop the fight at any time, but of course
| they tend to never do that
| karaterobot wrote:
| With the speed those guys hit, I imagine it'd be pretty tough
| for a referee to stop them before they've gotten an extra
| couple strikes in. It's an inherently dangerous activity, and
| sort of hard to mitigate that fact. I guess they could
| disqualify a fighter who hit their opponent in the head more
| than _n_ times in a given match, or even make the head out of
| bounds altogether. Something tells me that 's not an action
| the UFC would take willingly, or that UFC fans would accept
| happily.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| > head out of bounds altogether.
|
| That's how you get kyokushin style tournament. The problem
| is people want the head to be part of it, even the fighter
| themself. It's just a tough sport considering human only
| live once
| swader999 wrote:
| Valid points but isn't any punch to the head likely to cause
| issues, even mild concussion? And then repeated blows over a
| career likely lead to long term problems?
| instagib wrote:
| Oof. The thing no one wants to talk about. Repeated concussions
| are bad news.
|
| >>Most of the year I would be having concussion symptoms. There
| are grades of severity but my worst was being thrown on the back
| of my head at the Pan-American [Judo] Championships in Argentina.
| I completely blacked out till the next morning."
|
| Rousey's concerns were ignored. "I'd be treated like I was
| complaining about a headache. People would say: 'Your head hurts?
| Suck it up. What if your head hurts during the Olympics?' That's
| how I was taught to deal with it from a very young age. It became
| a way of life."<<
| enahs-sf wrote:
| Judo as a sport has now gone out of its way to prevent this
| moving forward. Head diving for techniques and defense is now a
| disqualifying penalty and every coach and black belt (at least
| in the US) is required to maintain up to date concussion
| training annually.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| She seems like an interesting person, not the crazy brute "they"
| made her sound like in her losses in UFC.
|
| Concussions should be taken seriously. The idea of waving off a
| rattled brain as a headache, and keep playing through, makes me
| cringe in the literal sense.
|
| I've had 3-4 of them, and I worry about my memory and mental
| performance over time. I'm only in my mid 30s.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| She had a successful and undramatic judo career before MMA. She
| was well respected in that sport from what I can remember.
|
| UFC isn't professional wrestling or anything but western combat
| sports have a tradition of a bit of theatricality and
| showmanship to them. Those are probably real elements of her
| personality to some extent, but choosing to visibly play them
| out was surely as much a marketing decision as a personal one.
|
| By contrast judo tends to be skeptical of that sort of
| presentation, and as a judoka it wasn't very apparent in her
| interactions.
| ilikecakeandpie wrote:
| She sucks though, she's a Sandy Hook truther and her husband is
| awful too
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Was she like that before her brain got scrambled?
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| The consequences of repeated head injuries from sports and
| fighting are well known and understood since 1920.
|
| Doing impact sports (football!) professionally or fighting
| professionally and staying healthy is just not possible without
| neutering the sports. Maybe this should be made even clearer.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopat...
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My mom had a concussion in the 1960s and was repeatedly told by
| her doctor that she was not to do any activities that put her
| at risk of another head-injury for at least 6 months because
| sequential concussions are so bad.
|
| You can imagine her reaction when the NFL played stupid with
| "we had no idea the players needed so long to recover" 40 years
| later.
|
| I think helmets were, to a large degree, merely there so that
| the fans could pretend players weren't getting concussions as
| often as they really were. Boxing fans (and non-fans) are aware
| that getting hit in the head a lot is bad, but there aren't
| enough boxing fans in the US to fill a single NFL stadium, much
| less 16 a week.
| jjeaff wrote:
| interesting, I just thought they were cumulative. I didn't
| realize there is an increased risk if they are closer
| together.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| > closer together
|
| Not necessarily: The increased and stacking vulnerability
| to brain damage after concussions might not go away ever. I
| don't think this has been researched.
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > Not necessarily: The increased and stacking
| vulnerability to brain damage after concussions might not
| go away ever. I don't think this has been researched.
|
| There are some permanent cumulative effects of
| concussions, though it's pretty well-accepted that
| repeated concussions in close succession (without
| sufficient time for recovery) is worse than concussions
| that are spaced out. Second impacts are much more likely
| to have serious consequences, including death, than
| initial impacts of similar magnitude[0].
|
| You'll never get "definitive proof" of this because a
| double-blind study would be extremely unethical (let
| alone impractical), but there's enough understanding of
| the underlying science to make this conclusion relatively
| safely.
|
| In short: repeated head injury is bad regardless of how
| much time is allocated to recovery in between and has
| some permanent cumulative effects, but repeated head
| injury in short succession (for some definition of
| "short") is markedly worse.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-impact_syndrome
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Regardless of whether or not they are increased in risk
| when closer together, the concussion protocols the NFL has
| in place now treats them as if they are, and the medical
| community has long (as in many decades) suspected they are,
| a fact which the NFL feigned ignorance about.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| I always overestimate the medical knowledge of the average
| person, but then again, the average person goes to a concert
| without ear plugs and laughs about their tinnitus next day.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Boxing fans (and non-fans) are aware that getting hit in
| the head a lot is bad, but there aren't enough boxing fans in
| the US to fill a single NFL stadium, much less 16 a week.
|
| There used to be. Boxing used to be huge. I've seen the
| theory floated that the reason boxing died as a spectator
| sport was precisely that all the fans got to watch their
| heroes lose their minds.
| bjourne wrote:
| Nah, boxing is huge outside of the US. The lack of interest
| is due to the lack of good American boxers. After
| Mayweather retired there haven't been much.
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| Did they all go to MMA? There have been a lot of fighters
| in the last 10 years with great boxing in addition to
| their other skills. Someone like O'Malley or Pereira
| probably would've done fine in boxing if that was his
| only focus
| methodical wrote:
| > there aren't enough boxing fans in the US to fill a single
| NFL stadium, much less 16 a week.
|
| Do you have any proof for this at all? The most anticipated
| boxing matches usually get over a million pay-per-view buys,
| not including the tickets sold for the actual arenas.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| And the Superbowl gets over 100M viewers -- a two-orders-
| of-magnitude difference.
|
| [edit]
|
| Yes, there are literally more than 80,250 (MetLife
| stadium's capacity) fans of boxing in the US. However e.g.
| the Kingdom Arena (location of Fury v. Ngannaou) seats
| about 30,000. If there were a 17 week boxing match season
| in the US, it clearly would be a much smaller draw than
| gridiron football, and that doesn't even include the
| college game, which has 8 stadiums that seat over 100k (and
| 6 more that are larger than MetLife).
| methodical wrote:
| PPV Sales can't be compared to Super Bowl viewership
| numbers, considering there's a pretty significant
| difference between watching something included with your
| existing TV subscription versus paying another $50+ to
| watch a one-night event. I'm not trying to argue that
| boxing matches are necessarily on the same level of
| viewership as the Super Bowl, but you can't compare them
| directly like that. I'm also not arguing that boxing
| could sell out NFL stadiums over multi-week spans, I'm
| directly arguing the point that "there aren't enough
| boxing fans in the US to fill an entire NFL stadium",
| which is completely false.
| screenoridesaga wrote:
| Except not really, I wouldn't be surprised if CTE is actually
| higher in non-athletes, nobody is checking the mass majority of
| these people. The insurance companies always make accident
| related CTE into another illness so it's impossible to say, but
| look outside the US. A LOT more realistic stats.
| nojvek wrote:
| Should clarify which football. For most of the world football
| === soccer and that is a much safer sport where career athletes
| don't end up with concussions.
|
| American Football, like Australian Rugby is a much more violent
| sport.
| mrmuagi wrote:
| I read somewhere that heading the ball could cause
| concussions aswell since it's many micro-concussions that add
| up?
| scotty79 wrote:
| Yes, I definitely read that too. It was about bouncing the
| ball with your head. It's a normal and common element of
| this sport.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| There's no way soccer/football headers aren't causing
| concussions.
|
| Here's some hard data.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9748028/
| logifail wrote:
| > Rousey had suffered so many concussions in judo that she knew
| her brain could not withstand multiple more blows to the head.
|
| Perhaps it's a background in science, but whenever I read a
| sentence like that I always expect to find it ending with a
| footnote linking to the reference demonstrating some evidence for
| the claim that's just been made.
|
| Then I remember that a journalist (or her [sub]editor) doesn't
| need to bother with stuff like that.
|
| A pity, really.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| It's not that journalists can say whatever they want with no
| oversight. It's describing her own understanding & perception
| of her risk profile at a certain point in her career. A more
| meticulous editor might quibble about what is being implied by
| "she knew" there, but it's not like they're making shit up and
| trying to sell it to you here.
| logifail wrote:
| > It's describing her own understanding & perception of her
| risk profile [..]
|
| Q: Is she an [ex-]MMA fighter or a neurologist?
|
| > it's not like they're making shit up and trying to sell it
| to you here
|
| Not wishing to sound unnecessarily snarky, but she _is_
| selling her book.
|
| I can't help but feeling that the process looks like: press
| release > journalist > article > clicks.
|
| Some days, the clicks seem to be all that matters.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| It's clear to the reader that it's her point of view. It's
| assumed the reader is a mature social creature who
| naturally considers context, the speaker, their knowledge,
| etc., not a credulous empty vessel that just accepts
| whatever is poured in.
| logifail wrote:
| > It's clear to the reader that it's her point of view
|
| I'm not sure how the author is supposed to have any idea
| that due to "so many [previous] concussions [they knew
| their] brain could not withstand multiple more blows to
| the head". A PhD in neuroscience? Maybe it's just
| pseudoscientific claptrap that seems be being lapped up
| by other sports fans.
|
| If you actually think your brain had already been
| damaged, you'd stop doing contact sports immediately and
| completely, not somehow keep going but fighting harder
| and faster, Ethan Hunt style. Of course it's amazing that
| she "can now share her secret"... <rolls eyes>
|
| "Her ferocity was built on a hidden vulnerability" is
| about as believable as your average Hollywood movie plot.
| A gripping story to push a new book, that's all.
|
| Complete and utter nonsense.
| whatamidoingyo wrote:
| I boxed a lot from 11-14. It was what my group of friends did for
| fun -- boxed each other as well as trained in a professional
| setting under a coach. There was this one kid in particular that
| was known to be a troublemaker. I was hanging with some friends
| and that troublemaker was there.
|
| The neighbor (a grown man) was hanging outside when the
| troublemaker started trash talking the guy for no reason. "Put
| the gloves on and box me, p*y!" After about 10 minutes of that,
| the guy agreed. Punched the kid a few times in the head. He was
| done.
|
| We walked down into town and the kid asked us how we got there.
| He had no recollection of us walking down the street. Scary
| stuff. From then on, he became even worse. Last I knew he was in
| jail.
|
| I'll never forget that. The headaches I got after sparring were
| eye openers and I quit. Jiu-Jitsu is much friendlier in regards
| to your brain, but probably worse for your spine, elbows, and
| knees... Have to train something, though. Nobody should be the
| gardener in a war.
| matwood wrote:
| BJJ is really what you make of it. I'm older, so probably tap
| quicker than necessary when training but my ego was beat out of
| me a long time ago hah. I'm also not competing, and I'm
| selective with my training partners. It makes BJJ one of the
| safest sports I've done outside of finger injuries.
| Snowboarding, wakeboarding, basketball, and football all hurt
| me way more to the point I 'retired' from them /knocks on wood.
| whatamidoingyo wrote:
| Oh yeah, for sure. I started training consistently at 24 (28
| now), and used to train every single day, sometimes 2-3 times
| per day. My body was quickly worn down! Especially after
| entering a competition gym -- where the focus was live rolls
| only.
|
| Nowadays, I stick to technique based learning and lightly
| spar. Never competed, never will. So yeah, don't be stupid
| like me and BJJ will be kind to you. :)
| lawn wrote:
| > It makes BJJ one of the safest sports I've done outside of
| finger injuries.
|
| As a developer I vastly prefer no-gi because gi grips totally
| wreck the fingers.
| rsync wrote:
| This is a good observation ...
|
| I am primarily a gi player but no-gi is much, much easier
| on every part of your body.
|
| When you have the gi it can be used as a handle, or a
| lever, and there can be very little slip ... but skin on
| skin slips and gives a lot and is much more forgiving.
| lawn wrote:
| Oh yeah, good call. It's so painful to have someone
| hanging down on you with their whole body weight. You can
| get so much leverage with the gi when done correctly...
| thtmnisamnstr wrote:
| I'd dispute that. No gi is not easier on the knees,
| ankles, or shoulders IMO. The slipperiness compared to gi
| comes with the downside of sudden slipping movements that
| put your knees and shoulders at higher risk of injury and
| dislocation. The increased focus on leg attacks also puts
| your knees and ankles at higher risk. Add to that the
| seeming slant towards more explosive movements in no gi,
| and the overall risk of injury should be higher than gi.
| You likely see more injuries in gi, because way more
| people train gi than no gi still.
|
| Note: I train gi and no gi and have been for almost 10
| years. My biggest injury happened in the gi (broken
| hand), but I've had significantly more ankle and knee
| sprains and shoulder dislocations in no gi. Also, the
| morning after no gi feels like I got hit by a truck
| compared to the morning after gi.
| matwood wrote:
| For me, it's not gripping that kills my fingers, it's
| randomly getting them caught in material. Even a loose
| fitting rash guard on an opponent has caught my finger.
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| I had a colleague who was an Air Force neurologist during the
| Vietnam era. His main job was to study pilots' EEGs to make
| sure they had a very low risk of epilepsy (because, of course,
| having a seizure in a fighter jet is very very bad).
|
| Well, back in those days, boxing was part of the training, even
| for pilots who would never see hand-to-hand combat. My
| colleague found that pilots who had their EEG scans after a
| boxing class were _far_ more likely to show epileptiform brain
| activity.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Since Air Force pilots are officers, they should have been
| given a more aristocratic marital art, like fencing.
|
| Saber fencing especially is pretty quick. Which is probably
| what they'd like--at least, I don't _think_ the Air Force
| would like to promote a mentality of taking a few hits and
| slugging through.
| analog31 wrote:
| Unfortunately the most aristocratic art has the most
| concussions -- horseback riding.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| At least those are generally accepted as a terrible
| accident, and not an expected and accepted part of the
| sport.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Ian Millar (who represented Canada in the 10 Games of
| 1972, 1976, 1984, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, 2008, and
| 2012) shows that unlike boxing and bull riding, most
| equestrian disciplines don't involve hoping to retire
| before the brain damage catches up with you.
|
| (also my understanding of the curve, based on our
| national level hospital statistics, is that a substantial
| fraction of the really bad wrecks happen to people with
| under 500 hours)
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| mmm. Depends on what you consider the "sport."
|
| My wife's a horse trainer. I could go down a long list of
| injuries of various severity that she's suffered over the
| years. There's at least one concussion (that I know of!)
| in there and a solid whack to the face that drew lots of
| blood but no other noticeable injury.
|
| And that reminds me of the software developer I used to
| work with who was also previously a horse trainer but
| switched to software after being run over and breaking
| five ribs.
|
| Unfortunately, this stuff _is_ considered expected and
| accepted [shrug].
| QuercusMax wrote:
| I'm assuming most riders aren't trainers, though. That
| seems like a different and likely riskier activity than
| riding an already-trained horse?
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| ?porque no los dos?
|
| https://library.olympics.com/Default/doc/SYRACUSE/37431/t
| rai...
|
| (I have heard that WWI era air bases had signs "no spurs
| in the cockpit" but am not sure that these aren't just
| modern retconned "collectibles")
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Sabre (the wrong decision now beats the right one later)
| would be more air cav?
|
| I _think_ the Air Force would prefer epee (full court
| press: first mistake loses).
| rm_-rf_slash wrote:
| The common joke in the military is that the Air Force
| builds the golf course before the runway.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| I got a concussion one time during a saber match when my
| opponent "accidentally" hit me in the side of the head with
| the guard after the pass...
|
| But I'm very unlucky with concussions. I once got one in a
| swim meet for running head first into the wall. So ymmv.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| As long as it's not Kendo
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo).
|
| Back when I trained, I remember going home with headaches
| because as senior student, my job was basically to stand in
| front of a line of junior students who took turns whacking
| me in the head :-)
| psunavy03 wrote:
| And this is why aviators have a truism: you can't win at
| Medical. You can only break even (walk out with the same
| medical clearance you had when you came in) or lose (walk out
| without it).
| mikub wrote:
| "Nobody should be the gardener in a war. "
|
| But your Jiu-Jitsu won't help you much when bombs gonna fall on
| your head, so better keep a nice garden if you can. ;)
| bee_rider wrote:
| Given what we're seeing with drones nowadays, the martial
| arts with the most military applicability are probably hide
| and seek and hiding under the blanket.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Jiu-Jitsu
|
| Apropos of nothing much, where does that first I come from in
| "jiu-jitsu"? It's not present in the Japanese, but for some
| reason it appears in Portuguese even though the original
| vowel is a monophthong.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Found this article that has some info:
| https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf
| adrian_b wrote:
| That article has some mistakes in its details.
|
| For instance the first article about ju-jutsu and judo
| that was written by Jigoro Kano and translated into
| English by T. Lindsay in 1888, has used the spelling
| "Jiujutsu", i.e. neither "jujutsu" (as written in this
| article) nor "jiujitsu".
|
| In Japanese kana, in the 19th century, before the
| spelling reform that happened after WWII, the spelling
| was "jiyuu-jiyutu". The Japanese spelling might have
| suggested the writing of an "i" after "j" in the Latin
| transcription.
|
| In the corresponding Latin alphabet spelling "jiu-jitsu",
| the reason why a "u" has been preserved from "jiyuu" but
| no "u" has been preserved from "jiyutu", is likely to
| have been because the first "u" is long, so it is
| pronounced clearly, while the second u is short, which in
| modern Japanese is pronounced without rounding the lips,
| so it does not sound like a "u". It also does not sound
| like a "i", because it is a back vowel, but English or
| French do not have this vowel, so they can render it only
| as either "u" or "i", and it appears that the choice has
| been random, because all variants are encountered in the
| old publications.
| Dwedit wrote:
| There is no "Ju" in Japanese, it's Ji+yu. ziyu or ziyu.
| adrian_b wrote:
| The modern transcription rules distinguish between Latin
| alphabet "ju" (written with small "yu") and Latin
| alphabet "jiyu" (written with big "yu" in kana).
|
| So there exist both "ju" and "jiyu" and they are
| distinct. In "juu-jutsu" there are only "ju", there is no
| "jiyu" (the latter can appear only in compound words).
|
| Before WWII, in kana there was no distinction between
| "ju" and "jiyu" (there was no small "yu"), so you had to
| know that the word written as "jiyuujiyutu" must be
| pronounced "juujutsu", in the same way like you had to
| memorize many other differences between the old Japanese
| spelling and pronunciation (e.g. yahara => yawara, osahe
| => osae, kuwatu => katsu and so on).
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| You present old tu => new tsu as a difference in the
| Japanese spelling. Is it? I had the impression that "tsu"
| is just a western transcription, the reformed Japanese
| spelling is still "tu", and the sound sequence "tu" does
| not exist, being obligatorily "tsu".
|
| Isn't that why English words ending in -t or -d get
| transcribed into Japanese with a final vowel of -o rather
| than the -u that is used for other final consonants?
| layer8 wrote:
| "Tsu" is the Hepburn romanization, "tu" is Kunrei-shiki
| (and the older Nihon-shiki). The latter is nominally the
| official standard Japanese romanization, though there is
| currently a proposal to change this to Hepburn, which in
| practice is much more commonly used. This is strictly
| about transliteration, not about pronunciation. The
| pronunciation has always been "tsu".
|
| You are right about the transliteration of English words
| into kana.
| adrian_b wrote:
| I have not presented differences in spelling, but
| differences between the kana spelling and the
| corresponding pronunciation, which were much greater
| before WWII.
|
| The kana syllables are grouped by their consonant, so a
| direct transliteration would use the same Latin consonant
| for all kana in a group, e.g. "ta-ti-tu-te-to", but when
| it is desired to suggest the English pronunciation, like
| in the Hepburn transliteration, that corresponds to "ta-
| chi-tsu-te-to".
|
| Before WWII, the kana spelling corresponded to a much
| older Japanese pronunciation, from about one thousand
| years ago, so there were much greater differences between
| spelling and pronunciation. So in my examples, what was
| written "yahara" was pronounced "yawara" and today it is
| written like it is pronounced, what was written "osahe"
| was pronounced "osae" and today it is written like it is
| pronounced, what was written "kuwatu" in kana had been
| earlier pronounced as "kwatsu", then the pronunciation
| has become "katsu" (= life) and today it is written
| "katu" in kana and "katsu" in Hepburn transliteration.
|
| Even when you know some Japanese, reading any book
| published before WWII can be difficult, because many
| kanji used before have been replaced with others and the
| kana spellings of the old kanji can also be confusing
| because they are different from the modern spellings too.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Sure, in the same sense that the sound at the beginning
| of the word "sure" doesn't exist in English, but instead
| is a combination of the sounds indicated by S and H.
|
| Or in other words, complete nonsense. You can't answer a
| pronunciation question by appealing to spelling
| conventions, particularly spelling conventions that are
| completely divorced from the reality of pronunciation.
| takinola wrote:
| I'm just thinking of taking up a martial art. I was considering
| BJJ. My main goal is to build strength, fitness and general
| physical discipline. Any thoughts on which martial art would be
| ideal, with minimal likelihood of injuries (if such a thing is
| possible).
| whatamidoingyo wrote:
| Definitely BJJ. Just avoid mainly competition gyms, and
| you'll be fine. Look for a school that offers a fundamentals
| class (most gyms do, but... competition gyms lack in this
| regard).
|
| Muay Thai has also been okay. It's brutal when you first
| start (RIP your toes and shins), but the sparring at my
| current gym is very relaxed, nobody is trying to kill you.
| This is how most muay thai gyms should be (not saying they
| are).
| sieste wrote:
| My experience with kickboxing has been extremely positive. I
| started at age 38 with no prior MA experience. In my gym
| there is more focus on general fitness, strength, flexibility
| and technique than on actual fighting.
|
| When we spar, it's always in full padding, and either points
| fighting or light contact continuous sparring. It's about
| tagging or outmanoeuvring the opponent, rather than hurting
| or defeating them. Except for a bruised rib I never had any
| injuries, training twice a week for over two years.
|
| I recommend finding a gym where you train with people in your
| age group. It's difficult training with a bunch of teenagers
| who recover quickly and don't care about bruises, when you're
| the only one aching the next day and having to drop off kids
| and see clients.
| ninininino wrote:
| If your goal is to build strength, fitness, and physical
| discipline, but you want to avoid injuries, martial arts is
| in general a very bad choice. Sports injuries are extremely
| common even if you are trying your best to avoid them in the
| majority of martial arts (including grappling arts).
|
| Purely maximizing strength and fitness and minimizing injury
| would look like some form of resistance training combined
| with low-impact cardio like swimming or cycling.
|
| Martial arts with minimal injury would look like a boxing
| fitness class (as opposed to a boxing class) or something
| with slow motion sparring or no sparring. Not sexy at all, or
| particularly helpful in a fight, but safe.
| jtriangle wrote:
| If you get into a good gym, BJJ is among the best, because
| once you've learned some things, you'll be rolling with guys
| who are way, way better than you, so they'll know how not to
| hurt you.
|
| The injuries in BJJ come from newbies rolling with newbies,
| and completion, stay away from those things, don't be afraid
| to tap early, and you'll be fine.
| solardev wrote:
| Anecdotally, I've been doing American style muay thai
| (meaning way less brutal and intense than the real Thai
| stuff) for about 10 years, at many gyms across the country.
| Never had an injury (or saw someone else get injured). I only
| spar for practice, not fight competitively.
|
| Most of those gyms also do BJJ, and I do very frequently see
| joint and ear injuries from those. Nothing major, but people
| will rotate in and out of injuries for a few weeks at a time.
|
| With any gym, it's important not to rush into sparring before
| you get your bearings (and protection, like at least a mouth
| guard and shin guards). Some places require head protection
| too, but I'm not sure if that actually protects you vs just
| giving your opponent a false sense of "it's okay to hit you
| harder". You might be trading light grazing blows (and
| visibility) for heavier blunt impacts...? Not totally sure of
| the science there.
|
| It's also super important to choose good sparring partners,
| meaning they are both adequately skilled at self control and
| not prone to bouts of anger that make them lose control.
| Watch other people spar for a while and talk to the coach
| about your own ability and theirs before jumping in. The
| absolute worst is beginners jumping into sparring each other
| without good self control, causing an unintentional slugfest
| where people don't know what they're doing and end up getting
| hurt. Don't do that, take it slow and play it safe. If you're
| not planning on competing there's no reason to rush through
| training or disregard safety.
|
| I know I sound like an old geezer lol, but seriously, it's
| entirely possible to do martial arts safely if you just lower
| the aggro level and don't go all out.
| com2kid wrote:
| I broke my big toe sparing once when it hit my partner's
| kneecap. That was my worst injury to date.
|
| She said last time that happened with someone during
| sparing it broke her kneecap instead, so I guess I was
| 50/50 on that one.
|
| People are shocked when I tell them that a sport where you
| try to hit other people in the head has a shockingly low
| rate of injury.
|
| > Some places require head protection too, but I'm not sure
| if that actually protects you vs just giving your opponent
| a false sense of "it's okay to hit you harder".
|
| Plenty of studies have come out showing that head gear
| increases the rate of injury, to the extent that head gear
| and padded gloves should just be banned in every gym.
|
| The safest way to spare is bare knuckle with a mouth guard.
| No one in their right mind punches full force when bare
| knuckle, at least not more than once.
|
| (Also, bare knuckle, still wrap up, and hit with the first
| two knuckles. Boxers in thick gloves learn to hit with the
| bottom two knuckles, which will shatter the shit out of any
| hand that tries to do that without gloves on...)
| com2kid wrote:
| I've been training different martial arts for little over a
| decade now, but of course YMMV.
|
| So #1 is you like the gym and the vibe. That means you'll
| keep going back and stay with it.
|
| Either BJJ or Kickboxing (or any striking art) will get you
| into a general sense of "in shape".
|
| In my experience (and I have #s from chest heart rate
| monitors to back this up), kickboxing does a much better job
| getting you conditioned than BJJ does, and if you just want
| to look good, hitting the boxing bag will get you a nice
| v-shape upper body, especially if you throw some push ups in
| the mix while hitting the bag.
|
| Neither alone will get you ripped or build strength the way a
| dedicated weight lifting program will, if you just want to be
| able to pick up heavy things, practice picking up heavy
| things. :-D
|
| Also you won't lose fat unless you also cut calories, I've
| rolled with plenty of chunky peeps in BJJ. Your body will
| want to eat more right after an intense class, you'll need
| some discipline to tell it "no". If you can manage that then
| you'll also shed the pounds, but even if you are in the gym 2
| hours a day 5 days a week, you won't automatically lose
| weight w/o self discipline in the kitchen (but you will be
| able to eat a lot more before you start gaining weight, so
| there is that).
|
| For BJJ gyms, take some sample classes at different gyms, see
| what they are like. Some gyms are guys in their 30s and 40s
| who have left their egos behind, some gyms are very "go go
| go" and will run you ragged. No judgement either way, I've
| worked out at both styles of gym and both styles can be fun
| so long as _safety_ is paramount.
|
| Safety should be discussed. You should hear the instructors
| talk about it all the time.
|
| At a good BJJ gym, more senior students will be asked to help
| out the junior students, and roll with them and show them how
| to do things safely. At more ego driven gyms people with
| black belts may not even talk to people who are just starting
| out. IMHO avoid those types of gyms at all cost.
|
| Same goes for kickboxing. Sparing is an important part of
| learning, the only way to learn how to dodge punches is to
| have someone try to punch you in the head. But good gyms
| don't want people getting hurt, and they should be very aware
| of TBI and how to avoid it.
|
| I actually trained for a couple years at a professional MMA
| gym, and despite being really high energy with lots of
| shouting and hard core warm ups, they were incredibly serious
| about avoiding injuries during training. The reason was
| simple: Injured fighters can't go in the ring, and thus don't
| get paid.
|
| I've been injured 3 times during training over 10 years,
| which IMHO is pretty good given at one point I was training
| ~15 hours a week.
|
| Tip: In a good gym, the highest risk of injury comes from
| training with new students who don't know how to control
| themselves yet. Someone in boxing class who doesn't know how
| to pull their punches, or who doesn't understand their reach
| and bops you in the face by accident.
|
| The 2nd highest injury risk comes from yourself and not
| knowing your own limits.
|
| When I was just starting out I had a senior student tell me I
| needed to stop because I was about to break my own arm if I
| didn't tap out.
|
| That is what a good training partner at a good gym does.
| matwood wrote:
| > At more ego driven gyms people with black belts may not
| even talk to people who are just starting out.
|
| All the black belts at my gym will roll with anyone. And
| yes, it's not common which is silly. Everyone in the gym
| has progressed so quickly because the different black belts
| are so willing to help.
|
| > Safety should be discussed. You should hear the
| instructors talk about it all the time.
|
| My instructors all the time, "the most important person in
| the gym is your training partner - do not hurt them. If
| they don't tap from a joint lock, let it go"
|
| > When I was just starting out I had a senior student tell
| me I needed to stop because I was about to break my own arm
| if I didn't tap out.
|
| Yep. I just let people go and tell them about it later. :)
| coffeebeqn wrote:
| You're not gonna get injured in most unless you spar very
| hard or go to a bad gym or sign up for amateur fights. I've
| done Muay Thai for around 5 years total and got hit in the
| head hard maybe three times. Hard like 50% power - never a
| 100%
| matwood wrote:
| I'm biased, but BJJ is probably what you're looking for. Try
| a bunch of gyms and find one that jives with you. You want a
| place that wants to help you get better and not just throw
| you out there to get beat on. Talk to head people and see
| what's their philosophy.
|
| While BJJ is a great workout, I would also suggest adding
| some weight/strength training.
| tmtvl wrote:
| As a kung fu guy, if you're looking for strength, fitness,
| and general physical discipline I'd recommend rock climbing.
| It's like wrestling with an even lower chance for injury.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| https://globalnews.ca/news/8597221/brain-injury-endemic-amon...
|
| > "It's now known to be essentially the population with the
| highest known incidence of traumatic brain injury, even above
| when we consider athlete populations and other known
| populations like veterans," said O'Connor, now a clinical
| neuropsychologist in the acquired brain injury program at
| Hamilton Health Sciences.
|
| There are a huge number of TBIs in the homeless population.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Have to train something, though. Nobody should be the
| gardener in a war.
|
| Most people have no martial training and never need it. It
| might be better to train in descalation or something much more
| useful, like JavaScript.
| scotty79 wrote:
| I think that skill of not being in places frequented by rowdy
| idiots is underappreciated.
| cgh wrote:
| I'd rather take the hits to the head, thanks.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| You're in luck. One is the prerequisite for the other
| golergka wrote:
| People who write code are much more useful in a modern war
| than people who throw punches. Missiles don't run on martial
| art.
| zer8k wrote:
| It's always funny to see people touting the virtues of de-
| escalation and soft talk. What happens when that fails? I
| started martial arts long ago because soft talk and de-
| escalation failed.
|
| I started training martial arts years ago. Of the brawls I've
| been in since then, usually with the homeless or drug addled
| while out on the town, de-escalation has never worked. I've
| been in bars where you can't talk someone down. Do you know
| how long it took for the police to arrive when a homeless guy
| started a fight with me for no reason? After giving the guy
| what he deserved I escaped to safety to call the
| police/medical. They never arrived. Sobering. He ran off
| eventually. Which, frankly is a testament to the power of
| street drugs.
|
| You can't de-escalate someone who is determined to harm you.
| This is a fallacy promoted by people who have never had to
| fight. You are universally safer by knowing how to fight and
| never using it than not knowing how to fight at all.
|
| The correct answer is understanding the escalation of force
| spectrum. Always start by trying to talk some sense into
| them. Then, based on their next move you either escalate to
| physical violence to defend yourself, or lethal force if they
| use a weapon. FWIW BJJ and Muay Thai are the only martial
| arts you should _ever_ do.
|
| Life is not a video game. The police aren't there to help
| you. There are bad people everywhere. It's better to be a
| warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.
| sharkjacobs wrote:
| > Always start by trying to talk some sense into them.
|
| I think that deescalation might just not be your strong
| suit
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| In a war you probably don't want to be a warrior either;
| better to be a REMF.
| ruddct wrote:
| My partner had a concussion many years ago, it was an eye-opening
| experience.
|
| After months of mostly-useless conversations with doctors,
| neurologists, etc, we visited a sports medicine specialist who
| worked with snowboarders, skiers, etc, people who get concussions
| frequently.
|
| The way the specialist described common concussion symptoms was
| really interesting: Effectively, your brain finds balance by
| using a combination of sight, touch (feet), and your inner ear. A
| concussion can impact the inner ear part of that equation, so
| your brain is overly reliant on sight and touch to compensate.
| This can cause all kinds of common concussion symptoms:
| Dizziness, sensitivity to screen time, etc.
|
| Anyways, after giving us the rundown my partner was prompted to
| do a few simple exercises to test concussion symptoms. One of
| them was to stand on one leg and track a moving pen with her
| eyes. She'd done OK on some of the previous exercises but this
| one took her out, she lasted maybe 5 seconds and was completely
| exhausted and dizzy for the rest of the day because of it.
|
| We ended up with a physical-therapy-like balance exercise plan
| that she stuck to regularly for a few months, and it ended up
| getting her to complete recovery.
| jtriangle wrote:
| Scotty, from Strange Parts, aka the youtube guy who showed the
| world that Apple could have included a headphone jack this
| whole time, went through a similar set of circumstances.
|
| Here're the videos where he talks about it:
| https://www.youtube.com/@StrangeParts/search?query=brain
|
| Like you said, extremely eye opening, and very good information
| to have. There is help available, and it likely won't come from
| a normal neurologist until their training catches up to the
| research.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| This is genuinely the sort of situation that makes me proud
| to be on speaking terms with most of my ex's.
| 1992spacemovie wrote:
| Glad to hear your partner is better. My wife dealt with a
| serious brain injury in her early 20s (she has since fully
| recovered) and it's always a concern of mine if she were to be
| hit in the head again.
| stefan_ wrote:
| People often seem to have a casual attitude to concussion; you
| read sports star X is out with a concussion and think little of
| it. Another word for concussion is "traumatic brain injury" and
| that tends to get it across better. I had a bad concussion a
| while ago and I still get occasional headaches, I had a
| tinnitus for months (if you are unlucky, it stays with you
| forever) and my sense of smell is permanently altered. I was
| ultimately lucky on that one too, enough force and you can
| permanently sever the connection to your olfactory receptors.
| tetraodonpuffer wrote:
| The neck is also surprisingly fairly involved in the balance
| system, I unfortunately have a lifelong inner ear deficit
| (deafness and vestibular) on one side and there have been times
| where neck tightness caused significant issues with my eye
| tracking (nystagmus). It's really all connected, also salt
| intake, caffeine etc. can impact your balance / dizziness due
| to the pressure in your inner ear canals where the otoliths are
| swimming.
| aramndrt wrote:
| Do you or anybody else have any resources to share regarding
| such training? I suffered a concussion 5 years ago and two more
| shortly after, and I still suffer from regular dizziness due to
| sunlight / busy environments and after too much screen time. It
| has taken away much of the joy of my twenties. Thank you.
| ruddct wrote:
| Unfortunately I don't know anything online, but I would
| suggest seeking out sports medicine/physiotherapy folks who
| work with your local concussion-heavy athletes (snow sports,
| mountain biking, etc). Good luck!
| evilai wrote:
| Maybe this video has useful info, I remember it mentions a
| company, maybe they have some papers(?)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs790JOeN3Y
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Can you please describe how one can reach such a specialist?
| What type of specialists are they? Thanks
| tnorthcutt wrote:
| You'll want to look for a "sports medicine specialist" as
| mentioned
| thfuran wrote:
| Sports medicine is the name of the specialty.
| ruddct wrote:
| The person we saw was a master of science in physical
| therapy, and specialized in/had personal experience with
| concussion rehab. They were based near a ski mountain, and
| thus a stream of athletes getting concussed regularly.
|
| If you aren't near any skiing, I'd seek out sports
| medicine/physical therapy folks who work with your local
| concussion-heavy athletes. Mountain bikers, cyclists, maybe
| football/rugby, etc.
| ianburrell wrote:
| There is "vestibular therapist" specialty which is physical
| therapist that specializes in vestibular issues. I had one
| who helped with vertigo from BPPV and some of the recovery
| exercises sound similar.
| anninaC wrote:
| Ie. Institute of Sport, Exercise and Health (ISEH) in London
| has both a neurologist (Richard) and a physio (Theo)
| specialised in concussion recovery, and working together.
| Been very useful for me (guessing you could do some
| assessments remotely).
| talldatethrow wrote:
| I once had a bad dream and violently shifted in bed hard enough
| to headbutt the connected nightstand next to my pillow (weird
| design). Hard enough to bleed.
|
| I was dizzy for days whenever I laid down. It was as if I was
| spinning in an amusement park ride slowly.
|
| I called an ex GF neuro radiologist, who after realizing I
| wasn't going to go in for any scans (no health insurance at the
| time), told me of a series of "brain/balance reset exercises"
| you can do. I did the exercises, moving my head in several
| positions in a particular order, and all symptoms went away.
|
| The brain is crazy.
| gukov wrote:
| The brain is indeed fascinating. The stories here reminded me
| about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_therapy.
| helge9210 wrote:
| https://olympics.com/en/video/maroulis-on-the-reality-of-con...
|
| Helen Maroulis is another athlete openly talking about
| concussion.
|
| I'm a referee in wrestling (Olympic styles) and I don't let the
| match to continue until the competition doctor clears the
| wrestler after a hit in the head.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| Bare knuckle boxing is much less damaging to the brain than
| boxing / mma. You can't punch somebodies skull with any degree of
| force unless you want to break your hands. Much more precision is
| required.
|
| There tend to be more cuts and thus more blood, but that seems
| like a better trade off.
| nojvek wrote:
| Even if the skull can't break, one can seriously damage the
| softer parts of the face with bare knuckles.
|
| Seen some pretty bad knuckle fights in high school where
| someone ended in a hospital pretty messed up.
| callamdelaney wrote:
| Yes that's true, consider though that vaseline is usually
| used to reduce the chance of cuts. Plus my point is basically
| that a few cuts or a broken nose is a much smaller injury
| than permanent brain damage.
|
| Plus, the risks are still probably lower than the risks of
| elbows, knees and brain issues.
|
| Most real damage from fist fights comes when someones head
| hits a solid floor after losing balance or consciousness -
| that is certainly very dangerous.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| How do people in street fights not break their hands?
| callamdelaney wrote:
| I'd imagine that sometimes they do - but in general you
| aren't going to see the sort of technique you would see in
| competitive fighters in a street fight - the biggest risk
| here is usually hitting your head on concrete.
| tazu wrote:
| Speaking from experience, they do. You just don't feel it
| until the adrenaline (and/or alcohol) wears off. If you punch
| someone hard in the skull, you're going to break your hand.
| ljnelson wrote:
| One thing many don't talk about is the social aspect of getting a
| concussion. An acquaintance has decided to try to do something
| about that: https://concussionbox.org/ (Disclaimer: no
| involvement/attachment with the site, just thought it was
| relevant here.)
| Rapzid wrote:
| Totally not the point of the article but the claim that she was
| "the world's most dominate athlete" piqued my interest as I've
| never really heard of her. Apparently SI published this in
| 2015(the link in the article to SI is broken).
|
| This is the same year that Serena Williams, a household name, won
| the first three Grand Slam singles tournaments. This coming off a
| 2014 US Open win so 4 in a row. Anyway, some historical context
| lol.
| bumby wrote:
| Tbf, the more nuanced wording in the SI article is the "most
| dominant fighter" and most "dominant athlete in [her] sport"
|
| https://www.si.com/mma/2015/05/12/ronda-rousey-ufc-mma-fight...
| Rapzid wrote:
| Ah, yeah that's fair for SI. I guess manipulating quotes to
| be misleading is par for the 2024 course.
| kevinmchugh wrote:
| Ronda Rousey won eight fights in a row with the same technique.
| In five of those, it took less than a minute.
|
| Imagine a soccer player saying she was going to take the ball
| from midfield, go straight down the middle, and then drill it
| into the top left corner of the goal, and it working eight
| times in a row.
|
| Then she won four more fights, all very quickly and with more
| diverse skill set. It was shocking.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| I am glad she found her peace and family - she is indeed much
| more than a UFC champion.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| In rugby there is not protective gear unlike American Football
| and even I made fun of them for being softies but recently a
| former rugby player donated his brain and it looked like mashed
| potatoes.
|
| His decline and last days was not good according to his family.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Rising popularity of MMA in the last decade or two astonished me.
| I was wondering if the average value of having a functioning
| brain dropped so much in the new millenium.
| zer8k wrote:
| MMA has lost a lot of it's luster in recent years with it's
| major commercialization.
|
| It became popular because people were tired of Karate/TKD/Kung
| Fu/Krav Maga morons telling everyone their martial art can
| "kill in one touch" or something. So, Pride and UFC started and
| the entertainment was watching martial arts compete against
| each other in a near luta livre style. The idea of course being
| to find the best martial art. BJJ, Wrestling, and Muay Thai
| were the only survivors.
|
| Once the global maxima was found it became relatively boring.
| At least to me. But lord was it fun watching "masters" of
| traditional martial arts get beaten up and down the ring and
| all the magic of their martial art going along with them.
| dzonga wrote:
| Antonio Brown is a clear case about this.
|
| There's AB before the hit and AB after the hit.
|
| youtube link to the hit:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8iFSP_S5h8
|
| most times you think -- concussions are a matter of repeated
| effect -- but one can change your life drastically.
| UberFly wrote:
| Antonio Brown's biggest red flag on his scouting reports coming
| out of college was his character. His behavior may or may not
| have anything to do with that concussion.
| exabrial wrote:
| I enjoyed watching combat sports for a number of years, but I
| turned it off awhile back: fighters not showing restraint when
| the other is down, refs not jumping in quick enough, and not
| enough TKOs being called.
|
| The difference between fighting someone and maiming them is a
| single punch.
| maxverse wrote:
| I don't follow MMA, but I picked up Ronda Rousey's first book, My
| Fight/Your Fight and couldn't put it down. I then listened to it
| on audiobook, which she narrates with style and ease. Her story
| is absolutely incredible, and she and her ghostwriter do a great
| job sharing it. The first book is all about what it takes to be a
| fighter, with Rousey undefeated, at the height of her career.
| Ronda is adorable and terrifying, inspiring and impressive
| through and through.
|
| I just got her second book, which addresses what it was like to
| get beaten after going 15:0, then beaten again. I think she's
| going to talk about finding a way forward after her whole
| identity was being a fighter. I started today and can't wait to
| get into it.
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