[HN Gopher] Proton and Standard Notes are joining forces
___________________________________________________________________
Proton and Standard Notes are joining forces
Author : BafS
Score : 113 points
Date : 2024-04-10 10:01 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (proton.me)
(TXT) w3m dump (proton.me)
| TheLoafOfBread wrote:
| I wish they would rather fix their Proton Calendar app. It is
| really useless to have notifications coming on email as
| "Reminder: event starting at 6:00 PM". You know when it starts.
| There is a link to an event. Why also not put there title of the
| event?
| protonprivacy wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback! We released a new feature on iOS: a
| new calendar invite widget now shows the main event info in all
| emails that contain event invites. Tapping on it takes you to
| the Proton Calendar app directly from your inbox.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| My guess is some kind of security/privacy angle to not leak
| that information (maybe to Apple, who sees the contents of push
| notifications?). I don't know - just speculating.
| pivic wrote:
| This sounds like wonderful news to me.
|
| Will Standard Notes 'productivity' and/or 'professional' features
| (as listed on https://standardnotes.com/plans) be available for
| free to all paying Proton subscribers?
|
| Most importantly: when will paying Proton users be able to start
| using the productivity/professional features via their Proton
| subscription? I can't wait, which is why I'm eager to know. :-)
|
| I've waited for Proton to release a feature like this. Finally...
| I mean, I love Obsidian but it's not encrypted on my devices by
| default.
|
| Thanks!
| protonprivacy wrote:
| We're glad to hear that! We'll have more details to share soon.
| fourg wrote:
| Could you just sync your markdown files with Proton Drive and
| point Obsidian there?
|
| I left Standard Notes mainly because I wanted to use markdown
| files wherever/whenever I wanted versus being locked into
| something difficult to move from. Was good otherwise.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| After evaluating Proton and Fastmail, I ended up in the Fastmail
| camp.
|
| My solution for notes is Joplin (https://joplinapp.org/) +
| Fastmail's WebDev support.
|
| Joplin is amazing, supports arbitrary file attachments of any
| size, optionally encrypts every thing. Has an iOS, Andriod,
| Linux, Mac, and Windows app. "Just works".
| noman-land wrote:
| Why did you end up choosing Fastmail over Proton?
| 10729287 wrote:
| Not OP but personnaly I preferred the traditional approach of
| FastMail who has been in business for long time and are doing
| only mail while Proton seems too gimmicky to me. Coming from
| VPN business (and having proved not being that reliable)
| didn't help. I just don't believe their marketing, especially
| the CERN confusion.
| ziddoap wrote:
| > _Coming from VPN business (and having proved not being
| that reliable) didn't help._
|
| Proton started as mail only (ProtonMail, before the
| rebrand), not VPN.
|
| Also, what was proven not reliable?
| mmh0000 wrote:
| The biggest factor was support.
|
| I emailed both Fastmail and Proton with the same question
| before giving them money.
|
| For Proton, I sent the following message: Hello I am looking
| to move my self hosted email to a managed provider but I
| currently have 12 vanity domains. Even your most expensive
| plan doesn't allow for that many domains. Is there a way to
| get approved for more domains? I would like to do the Proton
| Unlimited plan and would be willing to prepay for two years
| of service.
|
| For Fastmail is was similar but adjusted to account for their
| plans.
|
| Proton took 7 days to respond, then, the response I got was
| just a hand-off to a different team. I never did get an
| actual answer.
|
| Fastmail on the other hand responded in less than a day, and,
| had a trial period that let me verify everything I wanted
| would work.
| selykg wrote:
| Fastmail has been about the same for me with speed of
| response. I don't have to reach out to them often, but when
| I do it's always quick.
|
| They also don't have a limit on domains. I haven't seen any
| price gated functionality or any limits. I don't have 12
| domains, but I do have a handful and it all works quite
| seamlessly.
|
| I have been with Fastmail for probably a decade or more
| now. Worth it.
| arp242 wrote:
| There's a limit of 100 domains, plus 1 for every user in
| the account.
|
| https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-
| us/articles/1500000277382-Ac...
|
| Probably mostly there to prevent rampant abuse from
| spammers, scammers, or people just doing really weird
| shit creating millions of $thing where everyone else has
| a few dozen or hundred.
| hgyjnbdet wrote:
| I end up with them because I found it less complicated to set
| up my email workflow. I also liked the ability, even if not
| officially supported, to have my tasks/notes/events/contacts
| synced via there web and card dav server.
| arp242 wrote:
| I like the webmail more. ProtonMail is slow and doesn't
| support text view. Also ProtonMail didn't exist yet, and back
| then FastMail was one of the few options for hosted non-crap
| email.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| I use fastmail because at the time it had calendar and
| contacts, and proton at the time didn't. Otherwise I'd use
| proton for the extra privacy (Eg, company isn't in Australia)
| 10729287 wrote:
| I'm a happy FastMail and Joplin user too but don't know too
| much about WebDAV protocol. Is syncing fast enough to manage
| your notes synced between devices ? I'm syncing Joplin (and
| keepass) with Dropbox but would love getting rid of it and
| syncthing haven't proved to be fast enough for such sensitive
| files (it is for cold files). What do you think ?
| mmh0000 wrote:
| It works quickly, takes a few seconds to do an entire sync,
| happens automatically every 5 minutes and on app close, I
| never really think about it.
|
| I love that I can have the same note open on both phone and
| computer and changes from either side will show up.
|
| Setting up an app to connect to Fastmail's WebDav is super
| simple[1]
|
| [1] https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-
| us/articles/1500000277882-Re...
| ycombinete wrote:
| Won't WebDAV sync the whole file every time? I can't imagine
| webdav being superior for this than Dropbox's block level
| syncing.
|
| Especially if Joplin files are anything like OneNote files
| and have the whole content of a workbook as a single file.
| drunner wrote:
| I went purelymail, but yeah I agree. Same with joplin. I don't
| really like the ui of how notes are organized, but it does work
| well for what it does.
| rpgbr wrote:
| Did you know that Fastmail's IMAP supports notes? You can even
| use it for Apple Notes backend instead of iCloud. It's a shame
| that Apple Notes is so awful as a simple notes apps.
| bananapub wrote:
| great, I was just hoping for one of the few secure email services
| to massively expand it's attack surface.
| protonprivacy wrote:
| From that perspective, we would prefer to focus efforts on
| securing the Proton account as much as possible. There are two
| actions the user can already take.
|
| First, enabling 2FA will take the risk of compromise down to
| almost zero (our data on compromised accounts supports this
| also).
|
| Proton Sentinel also helps to protect against account takeovers
| even when an attacker has stolen your password:
| https://proton.me/blog/sentinel-high-security-program
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| This doesn't seem like a response to the point that was being
| made. This feels like an AI-generated comment.
| protonprivacy wrote:
| Hi there, this is not an AI generated response. We are
| replying to the comment on attack surfaces, and how our
| focus is on securing a single Proton account by enabling
| 2FA and Proton Sentinel rather having to manage security
| for multiple accounts.
| j-bos wrote:
| Please speak to your superiors and let them know that
| this corporate style rings poorly on hackernews. See if
| they can at least let you speak more personally, less
| press release. It may go a long way towards improving
| perceptions here. Or at least credibility.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I'll cut the corporate account some slack; the parent
| commenter's criticism is sarcastic and a straw man.
|
| I got the point of the proton account politely saying "we
| secure the account holistically and having an additional
| product is not an expansion of attack surface".
| noman-land wrote:
| It's a hard problem because people want similarly privacy
| respecting solutions to all their other needs as well. I also
| don't love a single company handling all the important bits. It
| doesn't matter if it's Apple or Google or Proton. That's why I
| don't use most of their suite and prefer FLOSS whenever
| possible. This is not possible for email (yes I've tried to
| self host, it sucks ass and emails get dropped).
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I don't see how a separate notes product expands the attack
| surface of the email product. At best it might use up some of
| their engineering team's attention. But the email product may
| also just be "complete" (mostly about maintenance). So perhaps
| they can work on other things without sacrificing its quality?
| ciwchris wrote:
| I was a paying user to both Standard Notes and Proton. I,
| however, moved away from Standard Notes and my subscription
| renewed without notice. I contacted them and they reversed the
| transaction without hassle. I continue to pay for Proton.
| Depending on how the products are incorporated I can see myself
| moving back to Standard Notes.
| butz wrote:
| I have a feeling that Proton has too many different products, and
| inevitably, like their greatest competitor, the google, they will
| be forced to wind some of them down. And that will make some
| users mad. Proton Drive still does not have an option to sync
| files from Linux with no ETA. Introducing new products and not
| caring about existing products sure shows company's
| nearsightedness. And even if I am paying customer, they are still
| pestering me with upsell promotions, to use their other products
| that I have no interest in.
| esafak wrote:
| Provide feedback here:
| https://protonmail.uservoice.com/forums/932839-proton-drive
| butz wrote:
| So, "Linux Client" for Proton Drive is 2nd most voted
| request. I need to log in to vote. Guess what are two top
| options to login... Facebook and Google. This is really sad.
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| I don't really understand the point of your comment.
| Uservoice is a 3rd party SaaS. You can use email/password
| login there. What do you expect and why it is sad?
| esafak wrote:
| What would you have preferred?
| neonnomad wrote:
| I'm not sure why you think this just because they don't support
| Linux yet. They have a few core key products such as Mail,
| Calendar, Drive, VPN and Pass. All of these are great for a
| Google Workspace convert. Adding Notes to that makes perfect
| sense as I want my Notes secured end to end and as a Voyager
| subscriber I'm really happy they are going down this path and
| it seems right in their wheelhouse.
|
| To address your Proton Drive comment directly, they are a small
| team and they are rolling out Web, iOS, Android, Windows and
| Mac. The most common platforms today which is what they should
| focus on. Android already has photo backup, iOS it's in beta.
| They are continually having new releases for all of these
| products and you can see that on /r/ProtonDrive. Saying they
| have abandoned these products or don't care about them is
| hyperbole. Is it taking longer than I would like, sure, do I
| want them to release a Public API for Drive (for rclone) and a
| Linux client, absolutely but lets give teams the benefit of the
| doubt.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| > iOS it's in beta
|
| And was last updated 9 months ago. I'm still paying for it
| but have had to switch back to using Tresorit while I wait
| for them to update it.
| protonprivacy wrote:
| An update to the iOS app is coming soon, thanks for your
| patience!
| 35803288 wrote:
| Please, stop writing "soon". It's become a bad joke at
| this point.
| neonnomad wrote:
| * Android version was last updated April 10 2024.
|
| * iOS has had some issues, I actually had to remove myself
| from the TestFlight due to a bug but it is actively being
| worked on (the beta version). I'm assuming they are waiting
| on the iOS beta to be stable before another release but I'm
| not part of the team.
|
| * Proton Drive for Mac was last updated March 29th.
|
| Just because a team is having an issue with one piece of
| their software doesn't mean it's abandoned or unsupported.
| Again, there is a lot of hyperbole here.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| > doesn't mean it's abandoned or unsupported
|
| I didn't use those words though. I just stated that I
| have switched to a competing product which is more
| feature complete.
|
| > Proton Drive for Mac was last updated March 29th.
|
| I switched back to Tresorit due to the lack of comparable
| features on the Mac app too. And Tresorit is not exactly
| _packed_ with features.
|
| We can debate dates and details but there is a reason why
| the comment you originally responded to is the top voted
| comment for this article.
|
| Do you work for Proton?
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I 'm not sure why you think this just because they don't
| support Linux yet_
|
| He doesn't think it just because of that, this is just an
| example. That they had spread too thin with different
| products is a fact.
|
| I got interested in them for mail, and I could undertand them
| having a few more things, but the constant expansion worries
| me too. Even worse if they amass a portfolio just to look
| nice to get sold and folded into some monstrocity like
| Google.
|
| > _They have a few core key products such as Mail, Calendar,
| Drive, VPN and Pass_
|
| Even those, do these sound as "few core key products"? Those
| are already a lot for a company like that (as you said, "
| they are a small team"). Especially when they keep adding
| other stuff too, like Notes now.
| neonnomad wrote:
| It's not a fact, it is your opinion and you should really
| learn the difference.
| francocalvo wrote:
| > To address your Proton Drive comment directly, they are
| a small team and they are rolling out Web, iOS, Android,
| Windows and Mac.
|
| You said it was a small team for Proton Drive. I also
| feel they are prioritizing more products instead of
| investing in improving their current offering
| coldtea wrote:
| And you should really learn some manners!
|
| In any case:
|
| 1) They are a small team (something above 400 employees).
|
| 2) They have over 4 widely different products (web mail,
| vpn, cloud storage, password manager) - and now they're
| integrating Notes.
|
| Those a hard facts.
|
| Now, how does that employee count compare?
|
| Fastmail has same number of employees to ONLY run the web
| mail offering.
|
| Nord has 4 times the number of employees and has one less
| product category ( vpm, cloud storage, and password
| manager but no web mail).
|
| So, no: that they're spread too thin is a fact.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I think notes are something their privacy oriented customers
| have been asking for. It's not just an arbitrary thing.
| Personally I would like more such products from them, like an
| end to end encrypted office suite.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Completely agree. I'm a longstanding paying customer and
| general supporter of Proton and it has been very clear for a
| long time that their attention is being spread too thin.
|
| The more recently launched products are not really feature
| complete in many ways and some go months without updates.
|
| Email is great, I'd still highly recommend it. But I wish they
| would restrict their WIP and focus on fewer things (for their
| own sake).
|
| Edit: to balance out my negativity a bit - I REALLY recommend
| Proton for email, to home users and business users alike. It's
| rock solid and the iOS app is extremely good too. It's also
| very clear to me that the Proton team work extremely hard, and
| listen to feedback. But my concerns about a perceived lack of
| focus still stand!
| iowemoretohim wrote:
| What's the ETA for the Google Drive Linux client?
| grepexdev wrote:
| Zinger! Thanks for the laugh
| mstkllah wrote:
| Soon(tm)
| protonprivacy wrote:
| Hi there, Proton is backed by subscribers rather than VC
| investors, advertisers and selling data to third-parties. Both
| SimpleLogin and Standard Notes are open source community-driven
| projects, and for more on what makes Proton different, see:
| https://proton.me/blog/sustaining-mission-over-time
| WhatsName wrote:
| Is this a automated bot response? The main critique of the
| parent comment isn't that Proton engaging in many project,
| because of investors/ad revenue, but the act of doing so.
|
| I'm a active Protonmail subscriber too, who downgraded to the
| mail business plan, because I too want Proton to focus on
| their core business and not engage in becoming a clone of
| Microsoft 365.
|
| There used to be a regular vote on what users are mainly
| interested in. Maybe I missed it, but I too think that the
| risk of engaging in too many ventures will be the ultimate
| downfall. One last argument is, that hosting files and text
| and whatever is planned in the future weakens the legal
| ground to protect user privacy, as the (legal and technical)
| attack surface of hosting services is greater than just end-
| to-end encrypted email.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Looking at other responses posted by that account, I think
| they might be a bot or just pasting AI-generated responses.
|
| That said, I think privacy oriented people are desperate
| for exactly what you said you don't want - a Microsoft 365
| equivalent that is privacy oriented. I'd be willing to pay
| for it personally, and don't think it automatically follows
| that launching a new product makes existing ones worse.
| Maybe they'll get a lot more users that purchase the
| overall bundle and help them fund all these ventures better
| than ever before.
| jddj wrote:
| I think you're right, and it's an angle that it seemed
| like Mozilla were taking too, though they seem to have
| lost interest since.
| protonprivacy wrote:
| Hi there, the above is not an AI response. We were just
| sharing that creating privacy focused tools without the
| backing of big tech takes time and effort. We have a lot
| planned for 2024 to round out our suite of privacy
| products, and we're excited for what we can accomplish with
| the support of the community.
|
| You can also check out our feature request platform and
| change the category to planned or completed to see recent
| activity https://protonmail.uservoice.com
| bityard wrote:
| Just a tip, here on HN we like talking to _people_ in the
| comments. Founders and senior managers, for preference.
| But anyone willing to give their name and role in the
| company will often do.
|
| Your comments so far read as detached and impersonal,
| especially with the more than conspicuous usage of plural
| pronouns.
| sojournerc wrote:
| Fine - please fix email threads in the android email app. I
| feel what OP is saying when a basic feature expected of any
| email client is still absent. I say this as a multi-year,
| mostly satisfied customer.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| > Proton is backed by subscribers rather than VC investors,
|
| So I really hope you listen to us, the subscribers, and try
| to keep focus on improving the products that you have already
| launched and that we are paying for, before getting
| distracted on other projects.
|
| Honestly the basic features that are still missing from
| Calendar are becoming a bit embarrassing. It's also
| embarrassing for me with my business clients when my calendar
| system is the only one that doesn't seem to function like a
| normal calendar does - and _they see that_ too.
|
| You've done an amazing job with product development so far -
| especially Email - but please don't squander that. Some of
| your products really really need basic missing features and
| bugs sorted - and quickly, because you've already sold them
| to customers. I get the sense that your customers are
| unusually loyal (which is to your credit) but goodwill won't
| last forever.
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Just don't raise prices. I'm only paying for secure email, I
| don't want or use any of the extra apps.
| protonprivacy wrote:
| Prices are not changing, and if you have a current subscription
| to Standard Notes, it will continue to be honored.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| Good to know but I have a suggestion: wait until the service
| is actually available under my Proton paid for plan, then
| advertise it.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| This is a blog/PR announcement. They don't advertise it on
| their front page as a feature yet.
| Night_Thastus wrote:
| The price is quite reasonable too if that's all you want. With
| a yearly, I'm at about $4.3 per month.
|
| They really try to hide the "just email" option these days and
| want everyone on the big full package. But nope, I just like my
| e-mail!
| aftergibson wrote:
| Hopefully they can turn Standard Notes into a product I'd be
| willing to return to. I like the company ethos, but the product
| was too clunky. The configurable editors all seemed to be of a
| poorer quality than opinionated competitors.
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| Yeah, a lot of the editors were just open source editing
| widgets dropped in, often without a serious effort to make sure
| the interface or rendered documents matched the rest of the
| application. I'd love an editor on par with what Obsidian has,
| but all the editors were so clunky that I stuck to plain text
| for almost my entire vault.
|
| The floating "close keyboard" button creates situations on iOS
| that make it impossible to select particular bits of text
| sometimes. It makes me strongly suspect they aren't seriously
| dogfooding their own application.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| I rather like standard notes, personally. I also enjoy obsidian
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| This is great news, I'd love to see it included in paid
| subscriptions. I think Proton does the right thing building fully
| functional alternative to Google/Microsoft/Apple apps.
|
| People like me don't want to spread the butter over a dozen of
| different vendors, but at the same time paying for this type of
| service to a hardware or advertising firm doesn't make sense.
| Neither I want my data to be managed by US-based company, so it's
| quite a natural choice. That said, I hope Proton will find the
| right balance between cost of subscription and investment in R&D.
| Sometimes it feels like they are not moving fast enough - as much
| as I'd love to start using Calendar or Drive, they are just not
| usable yet.
| focusedone wrote:
| Interesting - I've used Standard Notes since 2019 and, more
| recently, become a Proton user. Both products have a similar,
| well designed, feel and make encryption easier to daily drive. SN
| in particular is just a really well-designed notes app.
|
| After being burned by acquisitions in the past, I sincerely hope
| we see both products improve each other.
| 35803288 wrote:
| I can't stand this ambiguous language, what does "join" even
| mean? Can't they just write "Proton buys 100% of Standard Notes"?
| abnercoimbre wrote:
| Yeah it's weird. What are they afraid of?
| Prosammer wrote:
| idk, if you think of it as two groups of people joining
| together to work together it's not so weird. people first vs
| business first maybe.
| joe5150 wrote:
| It was confusing to me. I assumed it was about some kind of
| collaboration or integration, not an acquisition.
| RyeCombinator wrote:
| Diversifying a lot. Next acquisition will be
| Ghost(https://ghost.org/) I bet. Similar DNA, fits in the
| portfolio (If they are trying to match the feature set of Google)
| and have no VC backing.
| gentleman11 wrote:
| Wouldn't that be interesting. Snatch up a privacy friendly
| analytics company and some forum plugins while they're at it to
| help people more easily create non-creepy online communities
| using their tech The all in one solution for being a good
| digital citizen?
|
| The world where everyone can easily have their own webpage
| without it being a Facebook or LinkedIn page
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