[HN Gopher] India's electric rickshaws
___________________________________________________________________
India's electric rickshaws
Author : vinnyglennon
Score : 115 points
Date : 2024-04-09 13:45 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (restofworld.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (restofworld.org)
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Some recent figures from the IEA suggested that electric 2 and 3
| wheelers were currently displacing more oil demand than electric
| cars.
|
| Almost all the stories seem to pitch this as a battle between the
| two camps, when I feel the obvious conclusion is that they'll
| accelerate each other as they both make people comfortable and
| familiar with electric motors and their various benefits (lower
| noise, pollution, running costs , oil imports etc.)
|
| They also pair well with electric busses and trains for last mile
| transport of people and electric trucks for last mile delivery of
| goods.
| Zigurd wrote:
| Electric cars are a viable product because they are a direct
| replacement for the kinds of cars people in the developed world
| have been driving for decades. But, in order to be that direct
| 1:1 replacement they have to be heavy and expensive because
| they have a big battery.
|
| This is both another evolutionary path for EVs and it shows
| that EVs can be lighter, cheaper, and have a different sweet
| spot than electric cars.
| bluGill wrote:
| The trade off is either speed or safety - often both. Light
| EVs tend to still go too fast for safe operation - they are
| still heavy and fast enough to kill a lot of people. Heavy
| cars use a lot of that extra weight to make them safer for
| those inside.
| RetroTechie wrote:
| > Electric cars are a viable product because they are a
| direct replacement for the kinds of cars people in the
| developed world have been driving for decades.
|
| Which may not matter much. People care about getting from A
| to B, quick & affordable.
|
| With big cities getting more crowded (and thus, traffic jams
| & parking space at a premium), smaller 2- or 3-wheel electric
| vehicles have a leg up vs. full sized cars. Enough so that
| they replace [gasoline/diesel powered cars] faster than
| electric cars do.
|
| Purchase / maintanance costs, tax incentives etc also work in
| favor of these smaller / lighter vehicles.
| Zigurd wrote:
| I have high hopes for e-bikes displacing a lot of car
| trips. They solve almost all bike usability issues for all
| types of riders: Aero isn't a concern so you can have have
| an upright riding position. 10-15 kilos of groceries is
| easily accommodated. Hills are no problem. Alloy frames are
| cheap to make. Wheels can be very sturdy. Tires can have
| run-flat inserts. Losing momentum at stoplights isn't a
| problem. Outside of places where winter is long and snowy,
| e-bikes can be ideal.
| lazide wrote:
| The issue in India is that bicycles (and to a lesser
| extent motorcycles) are a death wish. Plenty used,
| because also cheap. But I've personally seen several
| seriously nasty accidents that would not have hurt anyone
| even with the minimal protection that an auto rickshaw
| provides.
|
| Also, women tend to get groped more on bicycles/bikes,
| and weather is a big problem. The shade on an auto
| rickshaw in Hyderabad, or when it rains in Bangalore are
| pretty handy.
| Zigurd wrote:
| I agree there are going to be lots of market specific
| paths. Bikes are a death wish in many places in the US.
| gambiting wrote:
| Speaking from my UK perspective - an ebike would entirely
| replace my car for nearly all of my travelling needs,
| except that it's impossible to leave it safely in any
| public space - bicycle theft is absolutely rampant and
| prosecution is nearly zero, an expensive bike _will_ be
| stolen, it 's just a question of when not if.
|
| It's just a very solid obstacle to this becoming a major
| way of travelling unless something is done about bike
| theft.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Is the theft problem common there with the heavier ones?
| i.e. the ones that need a pair of fit people to lift it
| into a truck and take it away?
| ysofunny wrote:
| american's 4 wheel car shape, while incredibly safe
|
| is now an impediment to movility innovation
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| I don't think it's as simple as "American vehicle trends are
| very safe"
|
| "ongoing pedestrian safety crisis in the US in which fatalities
| are at a 40-year high and the number of pedestrians killed has
| increased by 80 percent since hitting a low in 2009."
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/11/14/23960624/truck-suv-hood-...
| genter wrote:
| American vehicles are very safe, for the people inside of
| them.
| frumper wrote:
| The overall number is quite small. Looking at the number
| going back to 70s and it's practically flat, while population
| has grown 50% since 1975.
|
| https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-
| statistics/detail/pedes...
|
| This is hardly a crisis.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| "practically flat" i.e. increasing again, erasing recent
| gains, is no great victory when the number in other
| comparable countries is still decreasing.
| throwaway4220 wrote:
| Also have to consider safety for the pedestrian which I think
| may be better for a 3 wheeler?
| jajko wrote:
| Safety of all passengers certainly is not, just look at it.
| Easy to trip, roll, break necks, crush folks inside.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Plus no seatbelts in many (all?) that I've ridden in
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| If we're comparing to the 3-wheel design common in India, I'm
| not sure about that actually. I saw a video recently that
| showed how cars with a lower front profile do much less
| damage in collisions with pedestrians (because the
| pedestrians roll over the top I guess) compared to higher
| front profiles (which ensure the pedestrian takes the full
| force of the impact or even gets knocked in front of the
| vehicle and then run over)
|
| The 3-wheel design wouldn't allow for pedestrians in
| collisions "rolling over the top" but perhaps it's narrow
| enough that they could be knocked off to the side more
| easily?
|
| At the very least, being run over by one is probably much
| less dangerous than being run over by a larger car closer to
| the typical size in the western world.
| bluGill wrote:
| Maybe a little, but they are still heavy enough to be deadly
| if hit at speed.
| Zigurd wrote:
| Iin 2023 Mercedes showed a lightweight aero-efficient EV
| concept with a 620 mile range using a relatively small battery.
| That kind of thing will eventually feed into a virtuous cycle
| for EVs: less battery weight means lower cost means more range.
| kjs3 wrote:
| While it's fashionable to blame us for everything, Gottlieb
| Daimler beat us to it.
| boringg wrote:
| I have to imagine that all these new EV rickshaws are
| significantly cleaning up the air in countries like India,
| Vietnam and Thailand. Anyone on the ground floor confirm this?
|
| I recall the particulates in the air of decades past being super
| hard on the lungs.
| shrikant wrote:
| There's too many "legacy" vehicles still on the road for these
| to make a noticeable impact. I was in Bangalore recently and in
| various popular and upcoming parts of the city, it's basically
| unbreathable toxic sludge at rush hour, and only mildly OK
| otherwise.
| lazide wrote:
| Tons of other air pollution sources too, from trash fires to
| cooking.
|
| It would be nice to cut down on any one source, and cars are
| definitely a big problem, but not the only one.
| manasdaruka wrote:
| While ev 3-wheelers have become quite common in India, I am not
| sure if they have led to any visible improvement in air
| quality. The earlier 3-wheelers were already CNG based and not
| as inefficient as petrol/gasoline powered ones. We are a
| developing country so I believe the growth in private cars is
| also offsetting any gains from ev 3-wheelers.
|
| To add to this, the particulates in the air are not entirely
| from this pollution, it is a sum of our terrain, geography,
| agricultural activities and pollution.
| pritambarhate wrote:
| Yes like the sibling said, EVs are a fraction of the total
| number of vehicles on the Road. But adoption is growing every
| year. Hopefully in 10 years or so EVs will take over.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > are significantly cleaning up the air
|
| Nope. They're a menace. The batteries are dumped after they die
| out, and random alleyway factories will make batteries without
| caring about externalities or chemical disposal [0].
|
| > Vietnam and Thailand
|
| Vietnam doesn't use 3 wheelers. Everyone buys a 2 wheeler.
|
| Thailand has transitioned to cars. You don't see "Tuktuks"
| outside of tourist centers anymore.
|
| A Toyota Hilux is the vehicle of choice in Thailand
|
| [0] - https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/govt-to-
| take...
| actionfromafar wrote:
| So, cleaning up the air but poisoning the waters?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Not even cleaning the air.
|
| While India is working on massive green energy projects,
| it's also doubling down on expanding Coal Capacity [0] as a
| short term solution to energy independence. China's doing
| the same
|
| [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-
| increase-coal-...
| Tagbert wrote:
| With EVs, even if they are powered by 100% coal
| electricity, they still produce less CO2 and pollution
| than an ICEV.
|
| Considering how dirty most gas-powered rickshaws have
| been, I have to assume that the electric versions are
| much much cleaner in this regard.
| alephnerd wrote:
| The e-rickshaws use lead acid batteries and "disposal
| infrastructure" is just chucking it to the side if it's
| dead.
|
| A CNG auto-rickshaw is also similarly light on fumes.
|
| In all honesty, all three-wheelers need to be banned in
| India, but it will never happen because that's political
| suicide.
| latchkey wrote:
| One of my expat buddies in Saigon owned a small scooter
| repair shop. Next door to him was a battery "recycling" place
| where someone would sit out front on the busy street and bust
| open batteries to take them apart for the valuable bits. Dust
| and whatever else going everywhere. The person wasn't wearing
| any sort of protective gear at all and was covered in soot.
| The shops all backed into a river, where they'd just dump all
| the waste they couldn't sell. This was on a street a couple
| km's long, full of shops like this.
|
| Toxic af.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Yep! That's the same in India as well.
|
| > One of my expat buddies in Saigon owned a small scooter
| repair shop
|
| Oh whoa! Which quan was this? I subsisted off Grab so I
| never had to worry about scooter repair.
| latchkey wrote:
| Best name ever: Phat Phuc Racing
|
| Shop used to be here:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/mwR8F7gCey1W2HUb7
|
| I'm 99% sure he shut it down during covid though.
|
| It wasn't really a repair shop, more about bolting parts
| on for expats. Parts and repairs are super cheap and not
| something to be afraid of.
|
| I also can't imagine not having a bike in Saigon, it was
| one of the main reasons I moved there! The city is so
| massive and amazing to explore and you can really only do
| that if you own a bike. Or, in my case, I just bought and
| sold used bikes all the time. Probably went through 25+
| during my time there.
| alephnerd wrote:
| There isn't much overlap between 2/3 Wheeler EVs and EV cars in
| India.
|
| 3 Wheeler EVs are booming because the prices are very low and
| allow you start your own business by undercutting Auto Rickshaw
| unions. Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make
| around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making it
| more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but 5%
| income tax and not eligible for subsidies). This makes EV 3
| wheelers attractive as it's an investment in a small business.
|
| On the other hand, EV cars aren't as popular in India yet due to
| range anxiety. Price doesn't factor as much because the tax
| incentives are made to incentivize EV cars (50% tax on disel/gas
| cars bit 5% tax on EV) and EVs are fairly affordable (a starting
| model Tata Tiago EV is around $9-10k) but no one trusts EV
| charging infra in India, so people are delaying purchases in
| order to buy a premium diesel car (eg. Toyota Fortuner, Mahindra
| Thar), eat the tax and buy a $4-6k Renault or Maruti ICE car for
| $9-10k after tax, or just keeps driving their gas car. This will
| change in 10 years, but the future is looking Hybrid, especially
| because Toyota is looking at expanding in India and lobbied a
| drastic tax cut [0]
|
| No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more and
| buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke. Most electric 2
| wheeler sales are driven by Ola (India's Uber/Doordash)
| subsidizing it's drivers and deliverers to buy an Ola
| manufactured 2 wheeler while working for Ola.
|
| [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-
| transportation/toyota...
| dilawar wrote:
| > No one actually buys 2 wheeler EVs - you can save $1-2k more
| and buy a luxury 2 wheeler like a KTM Super Duke
|
| 2 wheeler EV is not a rare sight in Bangalore. Probably 1 in
| 200 two wheelers is EV in my neighborhood.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Bangalore =/= India.
|
| Most of Bangalore's case is because of Ola subsidizing it's
| drivers to buy an Ola Bike [0][1].
|
| For people who don't know, Ola is India's indigenous
| Uber+Doordash competitor.
|
| If you're price sensitive, you can always buy a used Hero
| Honda for around $500-1k, so cheaper than a 2 wheeler EV. If
| you aren't price conscious, you can buy a luxury bike like a
| KTM or a car.
|
| [0] -
| https://m.economictimes.com/industry/renewables/electric-
| two...
|
| [1] - https://yourstory.com/2024/01/ola-electric-two-
| wheelers-bike...
| hunter2_ wrote:
| I recently had to look up what constitutes "common" vs.
| "rare" and I found the typical threshold to be 5%. You're
| only at 10% of that so I'd call it very rare.
| lostlogin wrote:
| > Your average auto rickshaw or e-rickshaw driver can make
| around $150-200/mo tax free and eligible for subsidies, making
| it more competitive than working at a factory ($250-300/mo but
| 5% income tax and not eligible for subsidies).
|
| It's before my morning coffee, so I'm likely missing something.
| How is the factory worker earning less? Are subsidies huge?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Are subsidies huge
|
| Yep. If you earn less that $3k a year,
|
| 1. You pay no income tax
|
| 2. You get heavily subsidized groceries (what would cost
| $30/mo becomes $10/mo)
|
| 3. You can buy a heavily subsidized apartment (PMAY-U)
|
| 4. Depending on the state, you can get free electricity,
| water, etc.
|
| 5. If you are in a semi-rural area, you can get psudeo-UBI
| via the MGNREGA program
|
| With all of this, you can end up netting an additional
| $700-1.2k a year tax free.
|
| Fundamentally, China and Vietnam were able to succeed at
| pushing people into factory work because these kinds of
| subsidies didn't exist, forcing people to choose between
| working at a factory or starve. Also, factories in China and
| Vietnam would build dormitories, but in India that falls foul
| of labor laws.
|
| This is why most migrant workers in India are from the state
| of Bihar - the government in this state has been incompetent
| at running welfare programs, so rural poverty has not been
| alleviated.
| jtrip wrote:
| >Fundamentally, China and Vietnam were able to succeed at
| pushing people into factory work because these kinds of
| subsidies didn't exist, forcing people to choose between
| working at a factory or starve. Also, factories in China
| and Vietnam would build dormitories, but in India that
| falls foul of labor laws.
|
| That's dubious thinking. The hurdles to establishment of a
| manufacturing base are not labor shortages. The biggest
| issue in India is the ease of doing business[0] and the
| bureaucratic red tape. India ranks 136 in 190 countries in
| starting new businesses, among many other accolades.
|
| [0] https://archive.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings [1]
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24106545
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| No, it's not that simple. Some of the regulatory capture
| that exists in India is layered on by existing companies
| like Tata and Maruti. These companies and existing
| relationships make it difficult for new entrants but
| wouldn't make it hard for existing firms to build and
| staff factories as they have been doing.
| alephnerd wrote:
| EV Car Laws are a classic example of this.
|
| The only major EV Car manufacturer in India is Tata
| Motors. They lobbied the Indian government to set EV Car
| GST at 5% instead of 50% like it is for other cars.
|
| When Toyota India (and it's partners Maruti Suzuki and
| Hyundai India) started considering manufacturing Hybrids
| [0], Tata went on a lobbying blitz to prevent Plug-in
| Hybrids from getting similar tax treatment as EVs [1].
|
| The Indian government ended up siding with Toyota [2]
|
| Oh, btw. This entire story only happened in the past 3
| months.
|
| [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-
| transportation/toyota...
|
| [1] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-
| transportation/tata-m...
|
| [2] - https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/cars/nitin-
| gadkari-bats...
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Yes I'm aware sadly. Have a friend of a friend involved
| in the 3 wheeler EV business in India. Not going to drop
| names because it's a small world.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Oof. Best of luck to them. I'm curious how they
| differentiate themselves from the Jugaad three-wheeler
| manufacturers. That seems to be where a lot of the demand
| and growth has been from what I've seen.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > The hurdles to establishment of a manufacturing base
| are not labor shortages. The biggest issue in India is
| the ease of doing business[0] and the bureaucratic red
| tape. India ranks 136 in 190 countries in starting new
| businesses, among many other accolades
|
| It all comes down to India's Labor Laws and Land
| Acquisition Laws.
|
| No one actually follows Labor Laws in India, but
| Enforcement Agencies and local Politicians will use them
| to extract bribes. You will invariably be breaking some
| labor law (eg. under Indian Labor Laws, you need to
| provide a baby room/creche for every woman), and as such
| you need to pay off the Trade Unions, local ruling
| Politician, local opposition Politician, the district
| labor commissioner, the district magistrate, etc.
|
| In India, the laws are used as a way to extract the
| maximum number of bribes out of you.
|
| This is why Tamil Nadu and Gujarat do so well at
| manufacturing in India - the politicans in both states
| are equally corrupt, but the ruling parties (DMK and BJP
| respectively) run a One-Party State where you only pay
| them off, and everyone has to listen.
|
| If you pay off your GJ BJP MLA or your TN DMK MLA, you
| will be free to do whatever you want - similar to how you
| operate in Guangdong or HCMC.
|
| In a lot of other states in India, corruption is nowhere
| near as streamlined.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| Is India still stuck on the Land Acquisition Act of 1894?
| Pakistan has been totally unable to make any changes to
| it, despite/because it allows for so much corruption,
| graft and control.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Yep.
|
| Narendra Modi has been campaigning on radically reforming
| the LAA since he became Prime Minister in 2014, but he
| never got the supermajority needed to safely pass it.
|
| The current 2024 election is basically being fought over
| this Land Reform Law [0].
|
| The UCC, Ram Mandir, etc stuff is all a distraction from
| interests fighting for and against this law.
|
| It's a good reform, but Modi isn't fighting for it out of
| altruism. Easier land acquisition makes it easier to
| manufacture mass housing under the PMAY-U program, which
| would basically make Singaporean style HDBs for Indians.
| Once that is in place, the BJP will win elections for the
| next 20 years, because they've provided modern housing
| (and the ability to get rich from graft on the way).
|
| [0] - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/land-
| reforms-included...
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Changing land acquisition would be a huge boon for much
| more than just housing for the BJP. As you say this opens
| up a lot more opportunities to get rich from graft for a
| lot of non-housing purposes as well.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Yep! I mentioned housing specifically because PMAY-U and
| PMAY-G was supposed to be Modi's crowing achievement
| (also the easiest way to pull off graft en masse), along
| with UBI [0].
|
| Food security, Housing, and UBI are the three holy grails
| - whichever party successfully delivers on all 3 becomes
| invincible for a generation, and why the BJP has been
| doing what it's doing.
|
| [0] - https://www.economist.com/finance-and-
| economics/2017/02/04/i...
| pkd wrote:
| This government's track record of passing radical reforms
| has been pretty poor (the Farm bills, labour reforms, GST
| implementation) so I am not holding my breath. It is not
| the supermajority that was hindering the Farm bills
| either - their main issue has been the lack of advance
| outreach to the relevant sections of society. There is no
| way you are going to simply pass laws like that in India
| without first priming the farmers / labour unions etc.
| first, even at acute tax payer expense. If they learnt
| from their mistakes then we can hope for something but
| their modus operandi has been to completely ignore any
| opposition to their policies so I will not hold my
| breath.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I mean, is the stuff they get in utility stores of
| acceptable quality? Pakistan got rid of them at federal
| level (like PDS) in the 80s after the Americans or IMF
| complained I think but there was a lot of hoarding and
| backroom dealing going on. I think certain provinces still
| have them.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > stuff they get in utility stores of acceptable quality
|
| Depends on which scheme/welfare program you're using.
|
| The ones managed by the Federal/Central Government have
| better QAing and because of Aadhar it's much harder to do
| shenanigans and steal en masse. The brands provided are
| also available at your local Indian grocery store [0].
|
| State Level schemes tend to be of varying quality. Some
| states (eg. Himachal, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Kerala) are
| able to maintain a high quality, but other states (eg.
| Bihar, West Bengal, Madhya Pradesh) are unable to
| properly execute.
|
| The Pakistani PDS collapsed because the hoarding and
| backroom dealing you mentioned. It fundamentally wasn't a
| bad program, it just lacked the institutional
| infrastructure needed to prevent corruption and lossage.
| The same thing happened in India until Digital Public
| Infrastructure (DPI) like Aadhar was rolled out. With
| Aadhar, UPI, etc, it's easier to detect anomalous
| disbursements and thus root out corruption, as you have
| an audit trail.
|
| Federal Schemes in India all require Aadhar/Biometric
| Validation. State Level Schemes don't require biometric
| validation, and as such can (and have) been abused.
|
| [0] - https://www.nafedbazaar.com/
| xbmcuser wrote:
| It's just the start prices for batteries and evs will keep
| coming down. So will the electricity prices as solar prices are
| also falling. The space is moving too fast to hold any concrete
| opinions economics says electric will price out ice in the next
| 1p years for a lot of transport
| alephnerd wrote:
| This is a Western point of view.
|
| Already from a financial standpoint, an EV is much cheaper
| than a Gas Car in India (an entry level Tata EV costs $9-10k
| after tax, and an entry level ICE Maruti Suzuki costs around
| $9-11k after tax), but everyone is holding out on buying one
| until the charging infrastructure is actually built.
|
| The charging network in India just doesn't exist. At most
| there might be 2 charging ports at a gas station, and
| oftentimes the station attendants just don't maintain them
| leading to broken chargers.
|
| Infra enhancement is happening, but it will take 4-7 years to
| happen.
|
| This is why Hybrids are becoming popular - the taxes on them
| got dropped to the same amount as an EV, and you won't face
| range anxiety as you can switch back to gas.
| hunter2_ wrote:
| > At most there might be 2 charging ports at a gas station
|
| Unless these gas stations are also 30+ minute
| shopping/eating destinations, the chargers ought to be
| places that are.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Indian urban areas are built a lot denser than the US.
| 30+ minutes of driving between shopping/eating
| destinations isn't a concern for customers in the 3
| wheeler market.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Unless these gas stations are also 30+ minute
| shopping/eating destinations
|
| They ain't
|
| > the chargers ought to be places that are
|
| Some are, but the maintenance issue comes up again.
| 1024core wrote:
| > The charging network in India just doesn't exist.
|
| Would battery swapping be a viable alternative? Obviously
| not swapping random batteries; but those made and
| mainatined by the manufacturer.
| chrismorgan wrote:
| > _$250-300 /mo but 5% income tax and not eligible for
| subsidies_
|
| 300 USD per month means [?]3,00,000 per year; remember then to
| take into account the Section 87A rebate, which amounts to you
| paying no tax if your total income is less than [?]7,00,000 (5
| lakh in previous years).
| ta_vf7xjd34cc wrote:
| Under the new tax regime, individual income up to [?]750,000
| is tax free due to a combination of standard deduction and
| 87A.
|
| Given that many small businesses often accept UPI payments in
| multiple names (husband, wife, mother etc), a small family
| can actually manage [?]1,500,000-3,000,000 in (legitimate)
| tax free income.
|
| That is about $18-36,000.
|
| Which is a lot in India.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| For anyone who doesn't ride motorcycles - a KTM Super Duke is a
| lunatic hooligan bike (in the best way) that barely fits within
| the boundaries of safe operation on the open roads of the USA.
| I cannot comprehend riding one on the busy streets of an Indian
| city. It'd be fun while it lasted, at least.
| xenospn wrote:
| Riding anything in India is an extreme sport. That country is
| absolute madness.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Welcome to India. Youth culture in India is obsessed with the
| KTM Super Duke [0]. It's the stereotypical chappri/pulingo
| bike (Indian version of Bad Baby type influencers).
|
| [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T08LibsaHh0
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| > no one trusts EV charging infra in India
|
| Sodium batteries is going to be a boom for India. 2x cheaper
| (albeit heavier), charges in 5-15 minutes.
| OJFord wrote:
| I've noticed petrol autos marketing themselves as not CNG/LPG
| as an advantage, what's that about - refuelling time should it
| be needed? Or safety? Just curious where EVs sit in that regard
| because I don't remember noticing any the couple of times I've
| been to Delhi, and AIUI they'd have been the previous
| environmental step forward.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Probably so the auto drivers don't get hit by a tire iron.
|
| Auto Rickshaw unions are VERY politically powerful. One
| former member has become Chief Minister (Eknath Shinde) and
| have played a major role in swinging elections in Delhi (INC
| to AAP), Karnataka (BJP to INC), and Telangana (BRS to INC).
|
| By advertising as being petrol, that means they are part of
| the Auto Rickshaw unions.
| lifeisstillgood wrote:
| I have two teenagers both of whom are (in my opinion!) quite
| capable of safely handling something like an e-rickshaw around UK
| streets ... as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly
| light weight.
|
| In my "fantasy political manifesto", I think roads should be
| (re)arranged so that every child can walk or cycle to school. My
| new amendment is to add local light electric traffic (those god-
| awful scooters) and something like these rickshaws, on physically
| seperate but parallel routes.
|
| Yes a 15 minute walkable city is nice, but a 15 minute drive
| opens up almost everything
|
| Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw. Delenda est carthago
| brnt wrote:
| > as long as the rest of the traffic is also similarly light
| weight.
|
| This. I'd love to use an electric bakfiets to move my kids and
| myself around, but I'd be doing it on roads where people are
| moving around 1-2 tonne pieces of steel inches from the bike...
| The safety engineering of these bikes (and rickshaws) are just
| nowhere near a car, and unfortunately in my environment I
| cannot ensure sufficient distance.
| icoder wrote:
| Is bakfiets an international word or are you Dutch, but if so
| aren't most Dutch roads/routes pretty safe for (electric)
| (bak)fietsen?
| foobarian wrote:
| Could we take matters into own hands and incorporate a new city
| somewhere from scratch? Or coordinate moving into an existing
| almost-willing city and take over the government?
| CalRobert wrote:
| I am curious if this could be done with something like
| California Forever. There are some examples, like Houten in
| the Netherlands, where the city was planned almost from the
| ground up with active transport in mind. You also have
| https://www.bloommerwede.nl/, which is being built completely
| car-free near the middle of Utrecht.
| krageon wrote:
| Calling what is essentially Kanaleneiland "near the middle
| of Utrecht" is pretty disingenuous. There's not a whole lot
| of room to go further south without ending up in
| Nieuwegein.
|
| That aside, the costs of initiatives like these will be
| enormous. They need to be financed with (or so
| projectmanagers tell me) those "XL penthouse" apartments
| and other larger offerings. There are basically no takers
| for that, not in the least because they'll be significantly
| north of 1 million euros. Even the affordable housing is
| generally pricy (think 350000+) and anything in those price
| ranges will be in the absolute minority.
|
| If there is anything at all around 300000, it will be
| specifically for a so-called "middle income bracket". This
| is a very hard to attain bracket unless you are a two-
| person family with a relatively high but not very high
| income. For average incomes this bar is very hard to clear.
|
| All that to say, it is clearly not made for most people in
| the country. Aspirational neighbourhoods meant only for
| rich people are available in many countries (as a specific
| enclave). It's part of what you pay for in such a location.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Ten minute bike ride from Utrecht central seems pretty
| good to me. And yes, nice things cost money when there's
| a shortage. The trick is to keep building until there
| isn't a shortage. If bloom merwede had been available
| when we moved we might not have overbid on a rental and
| paid a year of rent up front to get a place in Hilversum
| (which is much less nice and more car focused) instead,
| thereby freeing up our home for someone else.
| mywittyname wrote:
| This first needs money. And with sufficient attention, the
| cause can attract culture warriors who weaponize the state
| bureaucracy against the efforts. See: de facto banning solar
| power stations in Ohio. So this probably has to happen in a
| "friendly" state.
| graemep wrote:
| Where would you put physically separate routes?
|
| With kids attitudes are more of a problem.When I a kid a lot of
| kid used to come to school by public transport, but parents are
| a lot more protective these days.
|
| My teenager does quite a lot by public transport and walking.
| The main problem is services are not frequent enough between
| towns (in Warwickshire).
|
| IMO we should tax cars by weight and size, and restrict parking
| spaces for larger cars.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| > Where would you put physically separate routes?
|
| Reduce two-lane roads into single lane roads and make better
| use of the "removed" lane to transport people via bikes,
| scooters and even rickshaws (I don't see the advantage of
| having a three-wheeler when a decent cargo bike would work
| better).
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| I agree, but investing in separated infrastructure will soon
| pay for itself - it's easily the best value for money for
| improving traffic flow whilst also improving people's health
| (if they choose active travel) and reducing NHS costs.
|
| However, I don't think e-rickshaws will take off in the UK as
| our roads are already too crammed. Two wheelers (e-scooters and
| e-bikes) make more sense as they can avoid getting caught up in
| the four-wheeler congestion.
|
| Also, there's some kind of fake culture war in the UK against
| any non-car-shaped transport option.
| iainmerrick wrote:
| Two-wheeled cargo bikes are already starting to get popular
| in my area (although I imagine plenty of people see them as
| an annoying hipster affectation). People ride them pretty
| carefully -- taking the entire lane, etc -- as they're often
| carrying children.
|
| So, I'm not so sure electric rickshaws couldn't take off.
| ndsipa_pomu wrote:
| Yeah, I see a few cargo bikes round my area (Bristol) too.
|
| I'm not sure what the licensing requirements would be for
| e-rickshaws in the UK, though. I imagine you'd need
| registration, MOT and insurance for a non-pedal vehicle and
| that would make cargo bikes far more economical. If we had
| pedal e-rickshaws, they'd likely be limited to the same
| power as e-bikes and only for assist which would make them
| less popular and I can't see manufacturers being interested
| in making them.
| CalRobert wrote:
| The imprisonment of children might be the worst thing about
| auto dependence. We have British friends who moved to the
| Netherlands for this very reason, actually, though Brexit makes
| it tougher.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| So basically Peachtree City, Georgia:
| https://youtu.be/pcVGqtmd2wM?si=dLa_-qk7A8JtiPyI
| MrBuddyCasino wrote:
| > _Pay for it by taxing the wealthy btw._
|
| What a fresh and novel idea. Top 1% of earners in UK account
| for more than a third of income tax btw.
| triceratops wrote:
| Wealthy = net worth
|
| Top 1% of earners = income
|
| Additionally, what proportion of total income does the top 1%
| account for? For instance, if they make 1/3rd of all income
| then paying 1/3rd of all tax is an amazing deal for them. if
| they only make 1/20th of all income, maybe less so.
| mywittyname wrote:
| This is correlated though. If someone has $100MM in
| investments, then it's probably producing eight figures a
| year in interest and dividends, which are "income".
| Nevermind, a person at this wealth level likely has a high-
| income job.
|
| I personally treat all capital appreciation as income for
| the purposes of net worth tracking.
| triceratops wrote:
| So what's the problem with taxing a deci-millionaire?
| lazide wrote:
| Why do you think they aren't currently taxed?
| triceratops wrote:
| Why do you think they're taxed enough?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Passive income (rent from assets) is taxed less than
| active income.
|
| That makes no sense.
|
| Society benefits by rewarding people who work. And
| society benefits by dissuading people from not working
| and collecting rent.
| lazide wrote:
| Cite? Not true anywhere I know.
|
| They can write off expenses in some cases, and _capital
| gains_ are rightfully treated differently, but those are
| not the same situation.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Why are capital gains not passive income?
|
| In the US, we even have a lower tax rate (the capital
| gains tax rate) for dividends if you have held the asset
| for more than a year.
|
| Even step up basis when assets get inherited is a bad
| incentive, not to mention the $13M federal gift tax
| exemption.
|
| If you want people to swing hammers and perform
| surgeries, then don't tax swinging hammers or performing
| surgeries (or tax it less).
|
| And if you don't want people living off their or their
| ancestor's hoarded wealth, tax it so they either do
| something with it or dump it so someone else can. This
| segways into significantly higher land value taxes.
|
| In the US, we even reward people who just sit on
| unproductive real estate by deferring all taxes via 1031
| exchanges (you sell one property and buy another, and
| there's no tax). And on top of that, you pay excessively
| low land value taxes for this store of wealth that the
| rest of society maintains and protects for you.
| lazide wrote:
| Because capital gains can only occur when you sell
| something you bought. It's a one time event, specific to
| a given asset.
|
| income occurs without a change in control of some asset,
| due to dividends, pass through profits, wages, etc.
|
| They're fundamentally different types of things
| happening.
|
| For example: rent == income. Selling the house? Capital
| gains.
|
| As to if they are or should be taxed at different rates
| is orthogonal to if they are different types of events.
|
| I can assure you, anyone that owns a home or stocks
| _really_ would like to avoid treating them the same way.
| Which is a huge portion of the population, not just some
| random 1%'er somewhere.
|
| And 'unproductive' real estate still pays property taxes.
|
| There is no such thing as a free lunch, but there
| definitely are places that will make you broke if you eat
| there every day.
| joshuaissac wrote:
| Dividend taxes are lower than income taxes in the UK. So
| a person getting paid PS100k in wages will end up with
| PS68k after taxes, whereas someone getting paid the same
| in dividends will end up with around PS80k, which is
| around 17% more than the wage earner.
| toast0 wrote:
| > physically seperate but parallel routes.
|
| That's the challenge. Seperate, but equal is hard. Routing
| separarated multiple everything to everything paths for at
| least three classes (walkers and slow? cyclists, light vehicles
| and fast? cyclists, cars) gets really difficult where there are
| intersections, because either the separate paths cross at most
| intersections, or you're building an awful lot of tunnels and
| bridges.
|
| As a cyclist, there's also a major conflict within cylists with
| regard to speed. When you're cycling only a little faster than
| walkers, it's fine to be on a pedestrian trail, but somewhere
| around 15 mph, it's not really good for either cyclists or
| pedestrians to be combined; at that point, IMHO, it's better to
| be with faster traffic.
| ThemalSpan wrote:
| Amsterdam manages to have intersections with cars, trams,
| bicycles, and pedestrians signaled separately and it's
| working out pretty well!
| krageon wrote:
| Amsterdam is an absolute nightmare to be anything that
| participates in street traffic in. I've genuinely never met
| anyone that didn't think this was the case outside of some
| fringe elements that live inside of Amsterdam (and if I'd
| have to guess are just used to it).
| Arnt wrote:
| I don't live there, have been there, had no problems and
| don't understand why you had any.
| addicted wrote:
| In other words a completely unique traffic management
| solution is hard for people who have never encountered it
| before.
|
| Sounds like the real problem is a lack of familiarity than
| anything inherent to the design.
| lazide wrote:
| Amsterdam is dramatically lower density than the
| environments anywhere in Asia. And dramatically more
| orderly than anywhere I've seen in India.
| foxyv wrote:
| You could literally pay for it using the money you save on car
| infrastructure.
| manquer wrote:
| > quite capable of safely handling
|
| Tuk tuk are three wheelers and handle like a reliant robin and
| can tip over quite easily .
|
| E-scooters does the same thing better as you hint and they can
| be rented too . It doesn't help all that much today .
| sn41 wrote:
| E-Rickshaws are very unstable, and they are overloaded on North
| Indian roads, with people sitting even in the shared driver's
| seat, increasing the lopsided tilt. A distant relative of mine
| was killed when the e-rickshaw in which he was riding overturned
| and crushed him. They are easy to tip over, for example, when
| going over a pothole filled with water after rains. Traditional
| rickshaws have a wider base, and lower center of gravity. I think
| this particular design, popular all over north of India, is
| deadly. A safer design must be enforced.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > A safer design must be enforced
|
| They won't. Bajaj Automotive lobbied for this as a Hail Mary to
| save them after Egypt, Thailand, and other markets began the
| process of phasing out 3 wheelers, and all political parties
| agree that it helps undercut the goondagiri Auto Rickshaw
| unions (eg. Maharashtra's CM Eknath Shinde started his career
| as an auto rickshaw goonda)
| pbmonster wrote:
| > I think this particular design, popular all over north of
| India, is deadly.
|
| Do you have any insight as to why this is? Why are e-rickshaws
| more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws or bicycle rickshaws?
| Shouldn't they be inherently more stable than both of those if
| you put the heavy battery in the floor?
|
| > They are easy to tip over, for example, when going over a
| pothole filled with water after rains.
|
| Do you know why they don't they use larger front wheels from
| off-road motorcycles (or bike wheels like the traditional
| bicycle rickshaws)?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > Why are e-rickshaws more dangerous than ICE auto rickshaws
| or bicycle rickshaws
|
| E-rickshaws need to keep costs down.
|
| This is because there are a lot of benefits of buying an auto
| rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not getting beat up with a
| tire iron, less bribes, access to parking). And the prices
| are already at $2.5-3k.
|
| This means most e-rickshaws need to be priced at $500-1.5k to
| be cost effective.
|
| This means these e-rickshaws are macgyverred in local
| factories using lead acid batteries, weaker frames, low
| speeds, etc.
| sn41 wrote:
| I think they are too tall for the wheelbase. The design is
| narrower than traditional auto-rickshaws. I think one of the
| issues is I think that the battery is not heavy enough to
| stabilize the center of gravity once you start tipping over -
| instead of stabilizing, it probably makes it tip over faster.
|
| I am not talking about crash testing or anything that
| sophisticated. Something as basic as the tendency to overturn
| is much higher. I have seen one happen right beside me, when
| one of the wheels went into a pothole, and the rickshaw
| tilted and overturned. A traditional auto (the standard Bajaj
| model ICE, for example) would have "jumped", but not
| overturned.
|
| On this same note, the Bajaj ICE is slightly narrower at the
| top than the base, in a tapered design - this will increase
| stability.
|
| Piaggio Ape is tapered towards the top and has backwheels
| turned inwards -
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_Ape#/media/File:Ape_Ca.
| ..
|
| e-rickshaws show none of these features.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Why would an E-Rickshaw have a higher center of gravity. EVs
| typically have a lower center of gravity than ICEVs as the
| battery usually sits lower in the chassis. Did the makers do
| something odd like mount the battery higher?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Here's how your average e-rickshaw in India looks -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVqwUlN8YsM
|
| Most are using a low range lead acid battery you'd use for a
| gokart
|
| They're death traps
| zzzbra wrote:
| the move to electric should definitely accompany a change in the
| size of vehicles. because of their increased mass, electric cars
| are a lot more dangerous than ye olde combustion engine auto.
| Tagbert wrote:
| that only applies within similar vehicle classes. A big-assed
| SUV is big and heavy whether ICEV or EV. A small sedan or
| hatchback EV is much lighter than ICEV SUVs and trucks.
| gumby wrote:
| An interesting article, though a couple of trivial points bugged
| me. I suppose it's due to the death of editors.
|
| > a partnership between Kakkar and his partner Sanjeev Pahwa's
| cycle-rickshaw company and a traditional tuk-tuk manufacturer.
|
| I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India -- I believe
| it's a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the
| rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports
| via the British. But the term jumped out while reading the
| sentence.
|
| > the natural magnet for the motor and critical minerals for the
| battery, have to come from China because they do not naturally
| occur in India
|
| While it's unsurprising that the (likely rare earth -- India has
| iron) magnet et al have to be imported, it's not like rare earths
| are rare, and a country the size of India and with its geography
| could find them, and eventually will (as the article says they
| are with lithium).
| alephnerd wrote:
| The 3 wheeler e-rickshaws in India mostly use Lead Acid
| Batteries to keep costs down in order to undercut the
| incentives to buy an auto-rickshaw (eg. Union membership, not
| getting beat up with a tire iron, less bribes)
|
| 81% of all EV batteries in India are Lead-Acid [0]
|
| From a Lithium dependency standpoint, the Indian government
| made exclusivity deals with Australia, Argentina, and Chile
| [1][2] to mine Lithium and transfer lithium enrichment
| technology to Indian companies. That said, it would take a
| decade for this to pan out.
|
| > But the term jumped out while reading the sentence
|
| Shows the credibility (or lack thereof) of the article. There
| is an EV boom in India, but this article accidentally turned
| into a submarine article.
|
| [0] - https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2022/09/01/lead-
| in-dr...
|
| [1] - https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/india-
| tapping-i...
|
| [2] - https://eastasiaforum.org/2024/01/27/indias-long-road-to-
| lit...
| pfdietz wrote:
| India has monazite; it's one of the reason they've had interest
| in thorium for thermal breeder reactors. Monazite is also an
| ore for REEs.
| fuzztester wrote:
| I was just about to mention thorium separately, in reply to
| gumby's comment above about the size of the subcontinent and
| its mineral potential, then saw your comment mentioning
| thorium, and decided to piggyback on it:
|
| I have read somewhere that the black sands of Kerala's coast
| are black due to thorium. I have read that more than once, in
| different places.
|
| I just googled monazite:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monazite
|
| Excerpt:
|
| [ Monazite is an important ore for thorium,[8] lanthanum, and
| cerium.[9] It is often found in placer deposits. India,
| Madagascar, and South Africa have large deposits of monazite
| sands. The deposits in India are particularly rich in
| monazite.
|
| Monazite is radioactive due to the presence of thorium and,
| less commonly, uranium. ]
| itikasp wrote:
| Hi there, I was one of the editors on this piece, and I am an
| Indian so I completely understand your remark on the use of the
| word tuk-tuk. But there's a reason we used it in just one place
| in the story -- RestofWorld has a global audience and in many
| parts of the world our readers don't really understand what a
| "rickshaw" or "3-wheeler" is. So we made this choice for their
| benefit. Hope that provides you some context... and, well,
| also... I am alive :)
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| Nice to see some more "mainstream" tech journalists popping
| into HN! I enjoyed the article btw.
|
| (By mainstream I mean pertaining to less niche topics, e.g.
| articles about market penetration of alternative form factor
| EVs, vs. "the new version of eslint is now stable")
| gumby wrote:
| Thanks, mostly these days of course the writer has to also be
| their own editor :-(.
|
| BTW my bit about mining and India's geography: it's not just
| that the subcontinent is large, and mining is a statistics
| game, but because it has (I don't know the official term)
| "collision" mountains (like California's Sierras and not like
| the Appalachian range that crosses north america and Europe)
| there are lots of opportunities for underground minerals to
| be brought to the surface. I expect India will be a resource
| exporter like Australia and Russia within the next 50 years.
| throw7 wrote:
| I have family in the north-east and I've heard them use the
| term tuk-tuk before. They'll also use the term auto-rickshaw
| for the ICE ones.
| manquer wrote:
| > I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India
|
| Articles written to be read by audiences not the subject. For a
| global audience tuk tuk is the better word
| fuzztester wrote:
| >I have never heard the term tuk-tuk used in India -- I believe
| it's a Thai word used in some other countries. Of course the
| rickshaw and, cycle rickshaw and auto-rickshaw were all imports
| via the British.
|
| I _have_ heard the term tuk-tuk used in India, but only
| sparingly and only in the last few years, mainly by foreign
| tourists.
|
| Before that and even now, the common terms used were / are
| rickshaw / riksha, auto-rickshaw and just plain auto; auto is
| the one used most commonly by Indians (probably because a lot
| of us use C; just kidding, ha ha, the percentage of devs to the
| total population is a drop in the bucket.
|
| I've also heard the term tuk-tuk used a good amount in digital
| nomad videos, particularly about southeast Asia, so you're
| probably right, gumby, about it being a Thai-origin term.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| We're gonna need a new word for "tuk-tuk" if the vehicles are
| silent. Won't miss the smell, either.
| rasz wrote:
| >electric rickshaws
|
| Life is cheap in India, there are tons of videos featuring people
| falling off bikes/overturned rickshaws head first straight under
| the wheel of a truck.
| lazide wrote:
| Yup, seen it first hand - among other things.
|
| Auto rickshaws are much better than bikes in this and several
| other fronts when in heavy traffic, but also get stuck way
| easier in said heavy traffic.
|
| There are reasons they are so popular though, no doubt!
| jasonpeacock wrote:
| This is the real take-away:
|
| > Baran is not an engineer by education. He started working at
| the factory in 2017 as a helper -- dusting, cleaning, and
| organizing items. A year later, he got the opportunity to upskill
| and get trained in welding by Chinese engineers. Nearly 80% of
| Baran's 200 co-workers have followed a similar trajectory.
| "[They] taught us all the work," Baran told Rest of World. "They
| taught us welding -- how to put the parts and cut them. Over
| time, I picked up the work and got promoted. Now, our people can
| also teach these things."
|
| They're teaching people to fish. It's not out-sourcing (from
| China into India), it's talent development.
|
| > "The link [with the Chinese suppliers] became so good that they
| also believed in us, invested money with us, and shared
| technology with us," Kakkar said. Chinese engineers stayed "for
| days" to train welders like Baran when the factory first opened,
| he said.
|
| This is how you build partnerships and loyalty, and develop
| sustainable business relationships.
|
| > His company's ethos, according to Kakkar, is "Make in India,
| but technology from China."
|
| An apt summary of how we should be helping each other across the
| globe.
| mandeepj wrote:
| I'm not sure why Revolt's EV bikes didn't pick up enough sales
|
| https://www.revoltmotors.com/
| fuzztester wrote:
| Yes, interesting question. I saw one being used by a guy, in my
| area.
|
| Don't know how good it is, though.
| fuzztester wrote:
| Yet another HN loser of a downvoter bites the dust!
|
| Probably, being laid off, or even otherwise, they have no
| life, and nothing better to do, than downvote innocuous
| replies to comments.
|
| Way to go, dust eater!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_One_Bites_the_Dust
|
| P.S. check out the supposedly Satanic meaning of the words in
| reverse,
|
| Funny.
| dvh wrote:
| Why does chart start in 2014 at zero? What happened in 2014 that
| suddenly allowed EV to exist?
| kazinator wrote:
| Once you remove the "jin" from "jinrikisha", the vehicle can be
| electrified with substantially less irony.
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