[HN Gopher] Find My Device on Android
___________________________________________________________________
Find My Device on Android
Author : el_duderino
Score : 114 points
Date : 2024-04-08 17:03 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.google)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.google)
| el_duderino wrote:
| Google posted another blog on how they built the new Find My
| Device network: https://security.googleblog.com/2024/04/find-my-
| device-netwo...
| ddalex wrote:
| I love my Tile(s), but since the AirTag and now Android networks
| now feature the same capability, I feel their model is dead in
| the water since they don't own the platform and can't compete on
| the installed base.
|
| They should have sold out (edit: to a mobile platform company,
| either Google or Apple) while they had the chance.
| jsheard wrote:
| They did sell out, they were acquired by Life360 a while ago.
|
| edit: I don't think Google would have had much to gain by
| acquiring Tile, the actual technology is very simple, their
| moat was just the fact that they had the largest install base
| of tracking apps on Android. Google could, and did, just rug-
| pull them by pushing their own network out to every Android
| device with Play Services (so nearly all of them).
|
| The only thing Tile really has going for it now is that their
| trackers can be used with both Android and iOS simultaneously,
| if you have devices in both ecosystems.
| accrual wrote:
| Agreed. I bought a couple Tiles before AirTags were available.
| They worked fine, but AirTags are just better in every way.
| foooorsyth wrote:
| AirTags are not better in one very important way: they don't
| prevent theft. They will notify thieves that they are hidden
| in a valuable item that they are stealing if the thief
| carries an iPhone.
|
| Tile has a feature where you can submit your info and sign
| some sort of extra contract stating that you won't use your
| Tile for stalking/illegal activity, and you can actually hide
| a Tile in your bike frame and it can be used to find your
| bike if it goes missing. AirTags are useless for this because
| Apple doesn't want them used for stalking.
| aabhay wrote:
| If you hide the tag in a way that it can't be removed
| (locked to the bike etc) then what option does the thief
| have? They might actually decide not to steal the item!
| spogbiper wrote:
| hulk smash. hulk defeat security
| sleepybrett wrote:
| certainly removing the battery from the tag or just
| smashing it with the bolt cutters you are probably
| already using to steal the bike...
| joe5150 wrote:
| How do hidden trackers "prevent" theft? If a thief steals
| your bike and is notified that it's being tracked, they're
| probably much more likely to abandon it somewhere, at which
| point you can recover it. This seems like a safer bet than
| trying to hunt them down yourself. (It should go without
| saying the police are not going to go get your bicycle back
| for you even if you do hand them the GPS coordinates.)
| foooorsyth wrote:
| It's a massive deterrence. LoJack has been in business
| since 1986 for a reason.
|
| Also, the attitude of "don't go and get your stuff back
| yourself, it's not safe" is just castrated cowardice and
| only emboldens thieves. Thieves should be afraid of both
| law enforcement and vigilante response. Better society
| when both are on the table.
| lupire wrote:
| How does an anti-theft tech that know one knows is there
| deter anything?
|
| Cars are frequently stolen, as you may have noticed.
| foooorsyth wrote:
| Thieves will begin to expect it to be there some of the
| time, after sufficient police/vigilante response. And
| perhaps it will be hard to find. Hence, deterrence.
|
| Cars are stolen far less often than they would be
| otherwise partially due to technology like LoJack. Did
| you grow up in the US? Steering wheel locks used to be on
| every other parked car. Immobilizers and LoJack made them
| a thing you buy for your weekend classic car only.
| joe5150 wrote:
| LoJack stays in business mainly by selling their product
| to dealers who then demand auto buyers pay for it whether
| they want it or not.
| saurik wrote:
| AirTags only come in a single size and shape that only makes
| sense for larger container objects. Tile makes a flat credit-
| card sized variant that you can slide in your wallet, and the
| adapters required to put an AirTag on a keychain is pretty
| ridiculous in comparison to the tiny variants you can get
| from Tile with a built-in hole for this purpose.
|
| (Also: AFAIK the "large"--not really, in comparison to the
| AirTag + adapter, lol--Tile Pro variants have a noticeably
| longer range than AirTags.) Honestly, the only thing, to me,
| missing from Tile is the direction arrow finder, which is
| certainly useful, and yet... the speakers on the Tile are
| much much better so it just doesn't matter so much?
|
| (BTW: it is extremely stupid that that arrow only works in
| two directions. I waste so much time following the arrow only
| to realize I need to go upstairs -- I live in a two story
| apartment with a bedroom and an office above my kitchen and
| living room: it isn't larger than my friends's apartments,
| but it is really nice having two floors -- that I am only
| doing because the sound isn't loud enough on AirTags.)
|
| Frankly, the whole argument for AirTags being inherently
| better is merely that they have a "bigger network", but for
| most of my objects I am not scavenging around town looking
| for then, nor am I ever going to be chasing some thief around
| the city in my car looking to steal it back, hoping to catch
| up to them before they disable or throw out the tracker...
| that vigilante justice idea associated with this product
| category is just a crazy pipe dream.
|
| Instead, I am pretty much always just trying to figure out
| which pair of pants I left my wallet in today, or on which
| shelf I left my keys: I would actually be much _happier_ with
| a purely local product that only responded to encrypted pings
| from my personal phone and only even did that when I actively
| ask it to (as despite using both Tile and AirTags for years
| now the "you left your item behind" notifications have only
| happened before I myself noticed once or twice in a way which
| was helpful... it just doesn't ping often enough, with either
| product, to be maximally useful).
|
| And looking at the replies to this, I have learned AirTags
| are actually missing what is to me a glorious feature of
| Tile: that I can push a button on my keys and find my phone
| in reverse. I hadn't noticed this lack before as I am only
| using AirTags in large objects I don't keep on my person
| (which makes their notifications really annoying as the UI
| fails to eat old ones even when I walk back to my object...
| this seems very fixable), but I don't want to have to buy an
| Apple Watch just to have a way to find my phone :/.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Kind of. Apple's Find My network is open to third party
| accessory makers. Here's a card-shaped one
| https://chipolo.net/en/products/chipolo-card-spot
|
| I don't believe third party accessories support the
| compass-style precision finding though.
| saurik wrote:
| Thanks! For the card-shaped one I might actually try that
| one out and switch. I actually was just adding a thing to
| my comment about how the location finding thing is
| certainly useful but not as good as a loud speaker as it
| doesn't support a Z axis for some silly reason, so I
| don't really care. But, honestly, the flat versions of
| the Tile have an issue where the speaker wires can get
| broken slightly by flexing in the wallet (I took one
| apart to diagnose this once) and so I could see trying a
| competitor, as this is the same thickness!!
| thebruce87m wrote:
| While technically true, there are non-AirTag third-party
| devices you can buy that still work with Find My:
| https://www.macrumors.com/guide/find-my-network-accessory-
| pr...
|
| Both variants you list are supported by Chipolo:
| https://chipolo.net/en/products/category/chipolo-spot
| saurik wrote:
| That's cool! I am looking at this and seeing another
| issue with AirTag: I actively use the feature on Tile
| where I can use the Tile on my keychain to find my phone
| by pushing the button, and I guess AirTags is entirely
| missing that feature.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| You're supposed to use your Apple Watch to find your
| iPhone.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| something i initially missed as well but like .. if you
| pushed the button on your airtag it would probably start
| all your apple devices to beeping. The tag is associated
| with your account, not your phone like with tile.
| ianburrell wrote:
| AirTags really should have a hole on the edge. Then could
| attach a lanyard for keychain or strap without needing an
| adapter.
| jsheard wrote:
| Unfortunately the wallet trackers are compromised by the
| fact that most nice wallets come with RFID (and BLE)
| blocking linings nowadays...
|
| Hang onto your old RF-transparent wallet, because RFID
| blocking has become a standard bullet-point feature they
| all have to have now.
| saurik wrote:
| I had found what I consider to be the perfect wallet and
| while they did add an RFID lining it was one I could
| remove. I have bought multiple of them as backups and
| likely will purchase a few more ;P.
| dpkirchner wrote:
| FWIW I've had success with this AirTag card thing:
| https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4849497 . It's flat
| enough to fit in my wallet without distorting it too much.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| one way they aren't better. You have the tile but can't find
| your damn phone. Sure there is 'find my' but the little
| button on the tile that causes the phone to chime was
| actually pretty handy.
|
| I imagine apple removed it because tags are not paired to
| phones (like tiles) but instead to the whole account. If you
| were to push the theoretical button on the airtag your entire
| house would probably set to chiming (apple tv, homepod, all
| the phones and ipads on the account all the macs...)
| robotnikman wrote:
| So Airtags work with android now?
| jsheard wrote:
| No, the AirTag ecosystem and Google Find My ecosystem are
| still separate things. Google and Apple did cooperate to
| standardize stalker detection though, so your iPhone will
| alert you if you have an unknown Google tag following you, or
| vice versa if your Android phone notices an unknown AirTag.
| lupire wrote:
| Low hanging fruit for EU antitrust enforcement.
| causi wrote:
| As someone who owns about eight of them, I don't see how you
| could love Tile. They have a ridiculous profit margin and the
| company likes to engage in asshole practices like making it so
| getting a notification when you lose connection with a tile is
| a fucking monthly subscription. Companies that charge for
| things which cost them literally zero dollars deserve to burn
| to the ground.
| JansjoFromIkea wrote:
| Yeah I can't really see where they go from here, which is a big
| shame personally because I got a bunch of very cheap battery
| replaceable ones years back that are still going strong. Also
| got a four pack of long dead gen 2s that were pretty easy to
| cut apart, rejig for replaceable batteries and embed into a few
| items.
| jsheard wrote:
| Finally, this was announced about a year ago but kept getting
| held up by the effort to standardize stalker detection across
| Android and iOS. Seems like they've finally got it figured out.
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| After a car break-in, I got myself airtags and an old iPhone. I
| was really hoping that the rumors of airtag support coming to
| Android were true.
| imp0cat wrote:
| Samsung Smart Tags work quite well for this. The devices are
| detected by most Samsung devices (so not just phones, also TV
| sets).
| renewiltord wrote:
| Google is like store-brand Apple. But their home devices are so
| much better (but still somehow not 'good') that more people have
| coverage with them rather than HomePod so they'll get the search
| assist from there.
|
| I'm surprised they can only do proximity, though. AirTags do
| direction quite well and can sometimes even tell altitude
| difference.
| jsheard wrote:
| Direction requires UWB, which is unfortunately still scarcely
| supported by Android devices. I believe the only ones which
| have it are the Pixel Pro models (but not the base Pixels or
| A-series) and Samsungs S+/SU/Z models (but not the base S
| models or anything lower end) while the entire iPhone stack has
| had it since the iPhone 11.
| FredPret wrote:
| Curious to know about the home devices. I'd never allow any
| google hardware a permanent place in my home even if it's
| amazing, but it's hard to see another major tech co coming up
| with something better than Apple TV.
|
| The Homepod is amazing too. It's stuck with Siri (is this what
| you mean?) but has fantastic sound that integrates with the TV
| for movies and Mac when playing music.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _I 'd never allow any google hardware a permanent place in
| my home_
|
| The irrational part of me agrees with you, but I already have
| an Android phone, so the Google Home doesn't really give
| Google any extra insight into my private life that they don't
| already have.
|
| This is why I don't get it when people are weirded out by a
| stationary always-on microphone in their homes, when they
| carry around a mobile, always-on microphone (and tracking
| device!) in their pockets.
|
| (If you also refuse to have an Android phone on these same
| grounds, then your position seems pretty reasonable, of
| course.)
| FredPret wrote:
| I'm all-Apple, but I think my next always-in-my-pocket
| phone will be a flip phone just for the peace of mind of
| not having an internet-powered distraction machine on my
| person
| amluto wrote:
| Google is quite good at these little screw-you features:
|
| > At home protection. If a user has chosen to save their home
| address in their Google Account, their Android device will also
| ensure that it does not contribute crowdsourced location reports
| to the Find My Device network when it is near the user's home.
|
| This is a feature that is fundamentally on-device, and it's even
| a _privacy_ feature, but for some reason it requires a Google
| account.
| e44858 wrote:
| Does any part of Find My work without a Google account?
| amluto wrote:
| That's a fair question -- if your phone doesn't report
| beacons without a Google account, then requiring a Google
| account to mask off areas isn't so bad. But you should still
| be able to mask off areas without telling Google your home
| address.
| portify wrote:
| Does it still require the device to be signed into a Google
| account?
| Scene_Cast2 wrote:
| Would anyone have details on how Pixels can be found even when
| out of battery?
| saganus wrote:
| It says they have specialized hardware so I imagine they use
| some ultra-low power chips and perhaps even a small extra
| battery?
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Same question here. I have to assume this would either work by
| the device sending out a last gasp "I'm about to die" GPS
| location call home (for finding it when it's far away), or else
| there's a mostly passive RFID-like thing in the phone that
| makes it findable by nearby devices (for finding it when it's
| somewhere in the house/car/office with you).
| wolverine876 wrote:
| How much energy would be needed to power a minimal wireless
| network node, of some sufficient capability, for let's say 1
| day? Any IoT devs out there?
| ianburrell wrote:
| If it is using a similar technology to AirTags, then it
| could broadcast signal for a long time on remaining
| battery. Even Bluetooth can do months on coin cell battery.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| Moto g30 without cell modem but with enabled WiFi easily
| gets two weeks of the runtime without much of display time.
|
| My RAZR MAXX could sit for months on the one charge (with
| already busted battery) without any cell activity.
|
| So if you don't need the display and a hungry wireless tech
| _to keep on constantly_ you can have enough juice for days,
| even when the phone is no longer in the power profile to
| have a full run.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I read that they use bluetooth beaconing for this. A simple
| bluetooth beacon like a tile can run for months with minimal
| power. The phone isn't actually 'dead dead' it's still
| powering the bluetooth beacon.
| bnc319 wrote:
| I'm guessing this works exactly the same way as Apple's
| "Findable After Power Off" feature [1]. If the phone "dies" the
| battery still has some reserve to display the "charging needed"
| screen when the power button is pushed, along with sending
| location. Additionally, it can use the Find My network [2]
| where other devices that are powered on can relay the proximity
| device's location using their own location.
|
| 1. https://www.theverge.com/22697218/iphone-apple-
| ios-15-find-m... 2. https://developer.apple.com/find-my/
| kelnos wrote:
| "Out of battery" isn't really what we think it means. The phone
| shuts down (and refuses to start back up) when it still has
| quite a bit of battery left. If it truly allowed the battery to
| go flat, that would damage the battery, and you'd have a really
| hard time charging it again.
|
| The amount of juice your entire phone needs to run for, say, a
| half hour can probably power just the bluetooth LE chipset for
| occasional wakeups for beacon-sending for... weeks? Months?
| (Completely made up time spans, but the BTLE chipset really
| does need a tiny amount of power for infrequent wakesups
| compared to the entire phone.) Certainly this can't last
| forever: if your phone is missing for long enough, the battery
| will eventually run down to a point where the battery
| controller won't let even the BTLE chipset draw any more power.
|
| This definitely requires hardware, firmware, and software
| support in order to set up, which is why only Pixel 8 is
| supported so far. Clearly when they were designing the Pixel 8
| hardware, they already knew this feature was in the pipeline,
| and wanted to be able to launch with a supported phone.
| lxgr wrote:
| That's how the iPhone does it as well, btw!
|
| As far as I remember there's a separate microcontroller that
| controls "Find my phone" beacons without having to boot up
| iOS on the main application processor.
| someplaceguy wrote:
| Sure. But more importantly, how do I disable this completely?
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Faraday bags are fairly inexpensive.
|
| I use these with my car key fobs because my neighbors teenagers
| discovered key fob amplification attacks.
| someplaceguy wrote:
| Let me qualify my question: how do I disable this completely
| _without otherwise losing network connectivity or other
| features_?
|
| i.e. how do I opt out of tracking other people and being
| tracked myself, i.e. without explicit consent?
| otachack wrote:
| One way is to support orgs like EFF that push for policy
| change to force Google and other powers-that-be to give you
| fine grain control.
| someplaceguy wrote:
| So you're saying that it's not possible to do what I
| asked, currently.
|
| And judging by the other comments in this thread ATM
| (with one possible exception), nobody seems to care...
| topherclay wrote:
| These seems like the most interesting thing to come from
| the post and every time you refresh the comments you will
| see more people asking about this feature.
| mcsniff wrote:
| How you read "X is an option to try and stop this" as
| "it's not possible" is about as ridiculous as wanting
| other people to spoon-feed you a solution.
|
| Stop using Google services if you don't want to be
| tracked by Google tracking services.
| someplaceguy wrote:
| First of all, I said it's not possible _currently_. Which
| is what I 'm interested in. Not that it might not be
| possible in the future if enough pressure is applied
| (that might be interesting for activists, which I am not
| and have no interest in being).
|
| Second, it's not mine or EFF's responsibility to police
| what Google does. Let's make it very clear that the
| current situation is Google's responsibility and nobody
| else's.
|
| Third, it doesn't matter whether I stop using Google
| services because other people using those services will
| track me anyway.
|
| And fourth, what does it say about a company that you can
| only use its services if you agree to be tracked and
| agree to track everyone on the planet without their
| explicit consent?
|
| I mean, let's be clear here. This is not "I'm tracking a
| pseudonymous ID across websites". This is literally
| tracking the physical location of someone whose real ID
| Google can easily find out, through a wide variety of
| means.
| mcsniff wrote:
| You're the one looking for help, you're not gonna get it
| by antagonizing others and waffling off your own
| responsibility.
|
| Best of luck.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Second, it 's not mine or EFF's responsibility to
| police what Google does. Let's make it very clear that
| the current situation is Google's responsibility and
| nobody else's._
|
| That's not how society works, though. There's no such
| thing as "natural human rights". If you want rights --
| like privacy, or the requirement that you can control all
| aspects of your devices -- you have to fight for them
| sometimes. Millennia of human history is littered with
| examples, and plenty of people in power would prefer you
| didn't have any rights.
|
| Companies are in some ways sorta just agnostic: they
| often don't care if you have rights or not, but if you
| don't, they're going to exploit that situation for their
| own financial gain. It's lame, but that's the system and
| society we live in. Ignoring that doesn't make it go
| away. Organizations like the EFF exist precisely
| _because_ this sort of thing _is_ our collective
| responsibility.
|
| So I 100% reject your assertion here. We are all
| responsible for our collective situation, even if often
| it feels like we are powerless to change things.
| Ultimately we aren't actually powerless, but it's hard
| (and sometimes risky, depending on the issue at hand) to
| work to band together to form a large enough power base
| to change things, collectively.
|
| If you don't want to be an activist, that's fine. But
| complaining about your rights then feels a little hollow
| and lazy.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _And judging by the other comments in this thread ATM
| (with one possible exception), nobody seems to care..._
|
| I know this sounds defeatist, but I've gotten to the
| point where I don't think it's possible in modern
| technological life in a developed country these days to
| avoid being tracked to some extent. At least not without
| dropping most (if not all) of the conveniences I care
| about too much in day-to-day life. And yeah, that's on me
| for becoming so accustomed to those things that I'd feel
| worse not having them.
|
| It's a sad state of affairs, really. But I don't think
| this will change without some heavy-duty privacy-focused
| legislation (with massive, tightly-enforced penalties for
| non-compliance) that forces companies to prioritize user
| privacy. Part of me would like to believe that sort of
| thing is coming within the next decade. But the more
| cynical part of me thinks it won't come, because
| governments benefit from companies tracking their users,
| as they can buy that tracking data even when their own
| laws say they cannot collect it themselves.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| I don't think you can. Your other options are to either use
| older Android phones, or switch to a libre-focused phone
| such as Fairphone 5.
|
| Unfortunately this is the way things are now. I wish there
| were good open source phone contenders but they have yet to
| catch up to the feature parity and quality of iOS and
| Android.
| fsflover wrote:
| Fairphone isn't really libre-focused as much as fair-
| production-focused. It's drivers are still proprietary.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Ah, sorry good point. I was thinking of the Librem 5 [1],
| but it is hardly comparable to an iPhone or Pixel in
| terms of software quality, battery life, and feature
| parity.
|
| [1]: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
| fsflover wrote:
| Yes, it has less features, but it can still be a daily
| driver (works for me).
| buster wrote:
| I just needed 3 minutes to parse faraday bags ("far a day"?
| Is it some vendor i don't know of?). Funny, how the brain
| works.
| kelnos wrote:
| There was another post upthread that linked to a GrapheneOS
| post saying that it does require support from the OS to enable
| and set this up, and GrapheneOS won't support it. So you'd need
| to install a third-party OS that doesn't support it.
|
| Not a great situation, to be sure.
| modeless wrote:
| When will we get precise positioning using UWB? UWB has been in
| three generations of Pixel phones now and I haven't been able to
| use it a single time. Not even once.
|
| I want a direction finding arrow that points to my lost
| headphones case or my wife's phone. I want a smart door lock that
| unlocks automatically when I approach from the outside but not
| the inside. I want to stop relying on flaky Bluetooth for Tesla's
| car key. Why are there literally zero products on the market that
| support UWB on Android as far as I can tell?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| I don't see why UWB should have anything to do with the Find My
| network. It's something the tag manufacturer would add
| separately. Since UWB range is lower than BLE range, the Find
| My network would get you close enough and then the
| manufacturer's app would enable you to use UWB.
|
| So the answer is, whenever a manufacturer thinks it's worth
| including in the tag.
| spants wrote:
| samsung have this.
| imp0cat wrote:
| This. Samsung Smart Tags work great, but not all Samsung
| phones support UWB do do check before you commit to a
| purchase.
| modeless wrote:
| According to this article you use Google's "Find My Device"
| app to find tags, not the manufacturer's app. Google's app
| needs to support UWB tags and display appropriate direction
| finding UI. Like Apple's has for years.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| It doesn't have to, and you don't have to. There is zero
| reason why you can't just have the UWB direction finding UI
| in a different app, even should they not add the hook. The
| UI/UX change between map oriented passive direction finding
| from anywhere in the world and camera oriented UWB
| direction finding only when you're within range is very
| sharp.
|
| If it could eventually do it within the app that could be
| pretty neat, but even if it doesn't and just has a button
| to open the manufacturer's app - just like it currently
| does to open the maps app - it would be basically as good.
|
| Alternatively, the manufacturer's app can just show a
| notification to get you into the UWB UI when active
| proximity mode is enabled and when you are within UWB
| range.
|
| Apple isn't the only manufacturer to do UWB, and Samsung's
| UX is pretty similar to this and works just as well.
| modeless wrote:
| It is ridiculous for Google to release a new tag finding
| app today without UWB support and without even mentioning
| UWB at all as a future feature. Sure, Google _could_ link
| to third party apps, but they 're _not_. Sure,
| manufacturers could do it themselves, they could have
| done it three years ago, but they _didn 't_ and they
| still _aren 't_. I'm asking _why_ none of this happened.
| It 's irrelevant whether someone theoretically could have
| done it or might do it later.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| But manufacturers have? Samsung tags have UWB and they
| work well. There are also Chinese UWB enabled trackers
| you can buy.
|
| Other manufacturers like Pebblebee, Chipolo and Tile
| decided not to include it - neither on Android nor iOS.
| They could have added it for years now, they just decided
| not to. Chipolo says they think it's just not worth the
| tradeoff. I don't necessarily disagree - I rarely use it
| with my samsung tags or airtags, it's just more
| convenient to use sound 95% of the time. Only time I'll
| use it is if I'm afraid of waking someone up.
|
| I could definitely see it being useful for people with
| hearing limitations, though.
| modeless wrote:
| > There are also Chinese UWB enabled trackers you can
| buy.
|
| Where can I buy a UWB tracker that supports direction
| finding on Pixel phones? I have looked and didn't find a
| single one. Or literally any other product of any kind
| with UWB that works on Pixel at all for any purpose, for
| that matter.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| You can buy plenty of Chinese UWB trackers, but they are
| for industrial applications. Without an open network
| (this being the first that comes with an UWB API) there's
| no way to make a compelling product so no one's going to
| try.
|
| The third party UWB API is available (though it's in
| alpha) and it supports AoA and direction finding :
| https://developer.android.com/develop/connectivity/uwb
|
| I'm guessing the reason you can't find anything
| compatible is because there was no way to make anything
| worthwhile before the Find My network economically. It
| made no sense for Tile to add UWB only for Pixels (since
| the Smarttags are better), and no one else could make
| their own network.
|
| Once this rolls out, there will probably be trackers with
| UWB trackers. Otherwise, you can make your own - the
| chips are pretty cheap and it's a relatively accessible
| DIY project that has been done before.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _UWB has been in three generations of Pixel phones now_
|
| Only sorta -- the Pro models have it, but the regular ones do
| not.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if Google eventually rolls this out.
| But it's probably bad optics to say it's only supported with a
| _very_ limited set of models.
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Ironically, yesterday my wife couldn't find her phone while we
| were at a restaurant. Is it at home? Well, let's try this. Google
| it, go to http://android.com/find
|
| Ah, but it only shows devices logged into my account. Well, let's
| log into hers. Which required 2FA from... her device.
|
| Sooo useful.
| XargonEnder wrote:
| My wife and I had this exact same sort of situation and now
| we're both logged into each other's accounts. We never have
| trouble finding our phones now but it does introduce other
| problems. Such as not knowing if some sort of security alert is
| being generated by my spouse and now we have to communicate
| about it.
| nemothekid wrote:
| Does Android have an equivalent of the "Find my Friends"
| feature? I assume that would be easier/more secure than
| logging into each others accounts.
| spurgu wrote:
| Seems like that's what was just released.
| nemothekid wrote:
| The article mentions sharing accessories, but not the
| device. I assumed that maybe sharing the device feature
| already existed, but judging by GP's comment that doesn't
| seem to be the case.
| spurgu wrote:
| Yeah I'm just assuming that it includes devices as well.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have no idea why they sunsetted Latitude. I feel like
| there was nothing on Android after that, and everyone I
| know switched to Find my Friends and iOS.
| Avery3R wrote:
| Google maps location sharing works cross-platform on
| android and iOS
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| And now I thought I'd try it with my device. It's on my work
| wifi and on mobile data. "Play a sound" works. But it still
| insists "Can't reach device" and won't tell me where it is.
| What am I missing? "Find my device" is toggled on in the
| settings.
| ryandvm wrote:
| Yeah, this seems like such an incredibly obvious oversight.
| Like... I know how it goes with fuzzy requirements, but who
| didn't nail down the acceptance criteria that the user should
| be able to trigger Find My Phone without 2FA.
| tiagod wrote:
| It's very common. I once lost a phone in an Uber car, and the
| only way to contact the driver was to log-in to Uber, which
| required SMS 2FA...
| daghamm wrote:
| Please don't. If you have 2FA, it should always be active. No
| exceptions.
|
| Hackers were able to steal private photos of half of
| Hollywood in 2014 because someone at Apple decided that 2FA
| is not needed for one particular iCloud function.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| So if someone steals my password, they can now find out
| exactly where I am? And factory reset my device now.
|
| Perhaps some combination of no 2FA IF you are a trusted
| contact that I've specifically added to the account would be
| safer.
| gomox wrote:
| There are many design tradeoffs around this problem, and
| most of them are reasonable, except the one they chose
| (can't find your phone unless you have your phone).
| Especially since the choice of where the 2FA prompt will
| actually show up is out of your hands.
| bnc319 wrote:
| With Apple's Find My solution, when logging in via iCloud.com
| there is a 2FA bypass link to the Find My web app. If you want
| to access other iCloud web apps, 2FA is required, but not for
| Find My. A nice quality of life feature that has probably
| gotten thousands of people out of a bind.
| progbits wrote:
| I understand your frustration, and device sharing is obviously
| a missing useful feature.
|
| But I absolutely don't want it to work without 2FA, and if your
| only 2FA is your phone you have other problems.
| Teever wrote:
| Why? Why not just have it let you know via a message pop up
| that location tracking is active?
|
| If you don't get that message because you don't have your
| device that means you're not being tracked / are looking for
| your device and if you get that message because you have your
| device you've now been warned that someone has breached your
| account.
| GeekyBear wrote:
| A "feature" designed to help you find your lost phone that
| can not work when your phone is lost is clearly designed
| poorly.
|
| All Google had to do here was copy Apple's solution of having
| access to that one feature work with only the user name and
| password.
| gomox wrote:
| This is just classic Google product management.
| godelski wrote:
| Just don't log out. Let us collect your data forever and at all
| times. No need to restart your computer, ever.
| You're dumb because you didn't create hard copy two factor
| backup codes! User error.
|
| Some potential explanations by people who don't want to resolve
| this admittedly difficult problem to solve. I find these issues
| difficult when also considering security keys like Yubikey.
| Like you can't clone a yubikey and that's considered a feature
| not a bug. So what, you want me to have everything on a usbc
| device that barely pokes out of my laptop? That's very easy to
| lose. Fall off my keychain? I've had many usbs do that
| (__especially__ the small ones).
|
| I am really happy that there are people doing security and
| making things more secure, but the truth is that usability is
| necessary too. The reason Signal is so great is not just
| because encryption, it is because my Grandma can use it. Not
| aware of any other encrypted text message system besides
| iMessage and WhatsApp that has that usability and those come
| with strings. I really think there needs to be something
| similar for MFA. Consider the user.
|
| Edit: A possible suggestion for FindMyDevice is to have trusted
| users. That you can give your wife, friend, whatever permission
| to find your device without needing to sign into your account
| or any other permissions. This seems like a relatively obvious
| solution, is there something wrong with it? Google devs, can't
| you patch this in in a few weeks (or less? But we all know,
| bureaucracy exists)
| doublepg23 wrote:
| The suggested solution for loosing a Yubikey is to already
| have n>=2 set up for your account. Apple won't even let you
| enable it without having two.
| godelski wrote:
| > The suggested solution for loosing a Yubikey is to
| already have n>=2 set up for your account
|
| >> I find these issues difficult when also considering
| security keys like Yubikey. Like you can't clone a yubikey
| and that's considered a feature not a bug.
|
| Yes, I am quite aware of this. My complaint is that I
| cannot expect my grandma to be able to perform this action.
| It would even be difficult if there was a cloning program,
| but without it, this is certainly an insurmountable task.
|
| Sure, you can make the argument that my grandma is dumb and
| tech-illiterate, but the truth of the matter is that this
| is the bar for the average person. You, me, and other
| Hacker News users would have no issues with these tasks,
| but this is not representative of the general FIRST WORLD
| population. Not to mention those in developing countries.
|
| The technical aspects are great! But they also need be made
| available for the average person. Be that by bringing the
| average person up to sufficient level or through careful
| design to bridge this gap. But what is clear is that the
| current state of things is insufficient. Especially
| consider that this is Apple's main value: design.
| sf_rob wrote:
| Tangent, but my experience with this was when I needed to
| upgrade my mobile plan for international service... but I had
| 2FA via text message enabled for the account.
| freitasm wrote:
| You should have multiple access to important accounts. Yubikeys
| are great for this. I keep a couple in an envelope with
| important instructions.
| gomox wrote:
| Came to the comments section to point out this ridiculous fact,
| which has been this way for ages (2018 at least). I'm glad it
| looks like there is enough momentum for them to think about
| fixing it now.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Can anyone recommend a similar device small enough for
| eyeglasses? An elderly person I know loses theirs (and it's a
| significant problem; they are very limited without them, on top
| of other difficulties of aging). I can find their phone for them
| remotely, but not their eyeglasses.
| jeffbee wrote:
| This seems like something achievable with the optics that a
| phone already has. It should be possible to wave your phone
| around and have it identify your glasses, if they are somewhere
| in the room.
| ruune wrote:
| Quick search gave these. I've never used any of those so I
| can't recommend one, but I have heard some good stuff about
| Orbit. Maybe there is someone here who has actual first hand
| experiences with them?
|
| https://findorbit.com/en-eu/products/orbit-x-glasses-eu
|
| https://home.tag8.co/products/dolphin-smart-eye-wear-tracker
| Onavo wrote:
| Will Google give up your location to the feds if they issue a
| broad area geolocation warrant?
| someplaceguy wrote:
| Even Google has to comply with warrants. Even secret ones.
|
| You should assume the location of your devices will be
| disclosed whenever the US gov has a plausible reason for
| requesting it, regardless of which part of the globe you live
| in.
| kelnos wrote:
| Sure, and this announcement doesn't change that.
| fsflover wrote:
| It does, since now your location is available even if you
| switch off your phone.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > thanks to specialized Pixel hardware, Pixel 8 and 8 Pro owners
| will also be able to find their devices if they're powered off or
| the battery is dead.
|
| This suggests there is separate hardware with its own power and
| network capabilities, designed for location tracking, designed to
| be always on. Is there a way to disable it?
| encom wrote:
| I was considering a Pixel 8a when it's released, now I'm not so
| sure. Not really keen on a mobile botnet.
| nolist_policy wrote:
| IMHO if you cary around anything that contains a cellular
| modem you're fair game anyways.
| TheSkyHasEyes wrote:
| The if here is some phones can be turned off and not
| transmit anything, at all.
| nolist_policy wrote:
| Modems are usually directly connected to the battery
| rail, because (so the saying goes) they have high peak
| power consumption.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| I once built a cell phone from scratch. They do have high
| peak power consumption, and I did connect it to the
| battery rail directly, along with some capacitors to
| handle the surges.
| fsflover wrote:
| On my phone, the modem can be killed with a hardware kill
| switch.
| nolist_policy wrote:
| Which one? I have a Pinephone and it is a great device.
| It's just not a good phone.
| fsflover wrote:
| Librem 5.
| flotzam wrote:
| FWIW, "It won't be supported by GrapheneOS. (...) _Bluetooth
| still has to be configured and enabled by the OS to make it
| work that way._ "
|
| https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/11520-android-find-my-devic...
| tivert wrote:
| The article linked there has a few more details about the
| implementation:
|
| https://www.androidpolice.com/android-15-powered-off-
| finding...:
|
| > To solve this problem, Google is working on a "Powered Off
| Finding" feature that allows a device to store precomputed
| Bluetooth beacons in the memory of the Bluetooth controller.
| This means that even when a device is powered off, it can
| continue broadcasting Bluetooth beacons to nearby devices.
|
| > Unfortunately, Powered Off Finding isn't the kind of
| feature that can just be enabled on any device. This is
| because the device needs to have hardware support for
| powering the Bluetooth controller when the rest of the
| components are shut down. Plus, device makers need to put in
| some extra engineering work to support this feature. For
| example, they need to support the Bluetooth Finder hardware
| abstraction layer (HAL) so that the Android OS can enable
| Powered Off Finding mode and send those precomputed Bluetooth
| beacons that I mentioned.
|
| I don't know how that could work if the battery is dead,
| unless they're letting the Bluetooth controller draw on some
| reserve battery capacity after the phone has powered itself
| down.
| nradov wrote:
| There is mostly dead and then there is all dead. A battery
| which is unable to supply enough power to keep the entire
| phone operating can likely supply enough for just the
| Bluetooth chip. Of course, the resulting deep discharge may
| damage the battery chemistry.
| nolist_policy wrote:
| I'm pretty sure phones shut down long before they reach
| 0%, keeping plenty of charge for the Bluetooth beacon.
| The battery protection circuit will for sure prevent deep
| discharging by cutting the power.
| lupire wrote:
| We've discovered the mythical "unlimited". Unlimited
| Bluetooth power :-)
| alephxyz wrote:
| Putting my tinfoil hat on, this explains why Google was okay
| adding a toggle to location access for apps on Android. They
| don't need your device to send them their location anymore,
| they'd only need you to be in range of an UWB or BLE device.
| jiberius wrote:
| iOS-style runtime permissions (for things like location
| access) were introduced in Android 6.0, which was released
| back in 2015. That's quite the long play.
| kelnos wrote:
| I'm all for assuming bad intent when it comes to Google and,
| but this doesn't really make sense.
|
| Google owns the OS; if they want your location, they don't
| need to care about per-app location permissions.
| fsflover wrote:
| > Google owns the OS
|
| Unless you install something else.
| DaSHacka wrote:
| At which point how does what GP said matter? If you
| install something else, it doesn't matter what toggles
| exist in stock android....
| fsflover wrote:
| Did I misunderstood that the Bluetooth device could
| exchange some data on its own when the phone is off?
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| > Google owns the OS
|
| Google is still beholden to consumer privacy laws. I'm sure
| if you turn off location data in your Google account they
| won't track you. The guys in the Room 641A will.
| explore wrote:
| Does anyone know if the baseband chip communication with the
| tower is disabled in airplane mode?
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| I've never needed this feature before but if a chance of losing
| my phone once per decade is the price to pay for not having my
| phone tracked at all times, then I'm cool with it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Being connected to a mobile network tracks your phone at all
| times.
| fsflover wrote:
| Unless you disconnect from it.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| That defeats some of the purpose of the phone, which is to
| be reachable by others.
| fsflover wrote:
| You can disconnect whenever you need privacy.
| nikeee wrote:
| This is not compatible with AirTags in any way, no? Wouldn't this
| be a great opportunity for a common standard? Or is there one?
| accrual wrote:
| I don't know the answer but I agree this tech should be
| standardized. Over time there will be a massive network of
| phones and tags capable of finding each other, but it's silly
| to bifurcate it such that you might not find your device
| because nobody on the "correct" network is nearby.
| FateOfNations wrote:
| Apple and Google have agreed on a standard for the anti-
| stalking functionality. Everything else is still separate.
| kelnos wrote:
| Oh sure, it _would_ be a great opportunity, but the idea of
| Apple voluntarily interoperating with anyone else on most
| things is just funny to think about.
|
| Google isn't significantly better on that metric, of course,
| but I feel like it's often in Google's business interests to
| interoperate more often than it is in Apple's.
| MBCook wrote:
| Yep. They never adopted or pushed USB-C (it was on laptops
| for years), Thunderbolt, SCSI, USB, Ethernet, HDMI, WiFi,
| Bluetooth, FireWire...
| lightbritefight wrote:
| It's unclear if you are being sarcastic or not.
|
| Apple adopted USB C on their phones because the EU
| compelled them to. They tend to oppose standards they
| aren't already using.
| MBCook wrote:
| Bull. That's _why_ I put the comment in parentheses.
|
| They had _already_ switched their laptops to all USB-C
| many years ago. And iPad Pros. I think the iPad Air and
| iPad (no name) switched as well.
|
| There were also strong rumblings Apple was going to
| release the USB-C iPhones when the rule was passed.
|
| > They tend to oppose standards they aren't already
| using.
|
| You're kidding right? Then explain USB. Or Thunderbolt.
| Of every other thing I listed above. Apple didn't invent
| any of them and open them. They were all existing
| standards.
| graiz wrote:
| Seems like the type of thing that would benefit from a joint
| iOS/Android W3C protocol between Apple/Google/Samsung. Perhaps a
| find my Matter device?
| thimkerbell wrote:
| There should be a config seeting. The 2nd time within 2 minutes
| that your phone is called from [other phone number] it will ring
| with increasing loudness, regardless of other settings.
| (Enable/disable)
| kelnos wrote:
| That's fine for the phone, but not for other devices and
| trackers.
| agilob wrote:
| When I read the title I thought "NO!" thinking that Google is
| discontinuing the app.
| m4lvin wrote:
| For anyone looking for a free alternative that works without
| google play services:
| https://f-droid.org/packages/de.nulide.findmydevice/
| kelnos wrote:
| This isn't really what the article is about. This app only does
| one small piece of what Google is announcing.
| shp0ngle wrote:
| AirTags/Find My is THE reason why me and my whole family is on
| iOS.
|
| This is great. I wanted my next phone to be Z Flip since Apple
| stopped making small iPhones (and no foldables in sight), but
| reliance on Find My stopped me.
|
| This is great
| bityard wrote:
| You may want to watch some videos on the longevity of foldable
| screens, consensus is that they still don't hold up over time
| and become especially brittle after being exposed to cooler
| temperatures.
| MBCook wrote:
| I can't imagine anyone, even Apple, solving the issues of the
| screen being perfectly flat at the hinge. I don't think it
| can be made to feel the same as the rest of the screen or
| have no visual difference either.
|
| And I like my iPhone. If it was twice as thick and half as
| tall when folded, I just don't see that as "better".
|
| If it was the same thickness as today when folded and half as
| thick when unfolded I'm not sure that's better either (and
| would be harder to make anyway).
|
| Folding phones seem like one of those neat things that _can_
| be made but don't solve any problem most people have. It
| seems like it would be most useful to make something the size
| of a lipstick case that unfolds into something a bit wider.
| That would've been cool 20 years ago. But I don't wanna phone
| that tiny these days.
| MBCook wrote:
| I'm really surprised this took 3 years after AirTags. Especially
| since AirTags have been rumored to launch for a very long time
| before that, and it was a surprise to people that they seemed to
| be done and just not available (IIRC).
| neurostimulant wrote:
| Google decided to delay the release until apple updated their
| unknown tracker alert to support google's bluetooth tracking
| devices. Not sure why, but it took one year for apple to
| implement the support.
| MBCook wrote:
| Seems odd. Unless that was going to require hardware changes
| I don't see why you'd need to delay.
|
| That still leaves 2 years past Apple's long rumored debut.
| kelnos wrote:
| Anti-competitive behavior is why. Apple had no _need_ to
| update their unknown tracker alert software on any
| particular timescale. And if Google was willing to wait
| until Apple made that update, Apple could certainly drag
| their feet and delay Google 's launch for a while.
|
| Presumably Google would have, eventually, said "ok, enough
| is enough, we're releasing on X date whether or not you've
| updated yet". And maybe that's indeed what happened! At
| that point Apple really would want to finish that update,
| since not doing so could be a privacy hole for their
| customers. (The same privacy hole Android users had to deal
| with in the early days of AirTags when we couldn't detect
| them.)
| MBCook wrote:
| Apple not updating Apple software is why Google couldn't
| release a Google product for Google phones?
| lxgr wrote:
| Yeah, that's the narrative I'm seeing in many news
| outlets, but it doesn't make sense to me. Did Apple wait
| for Google to release an anti-stalking feature detecting
| AirTags before releasing them?
| MBCook wrote:
| Can the Pixel phones do the UWB finding like iPhones can where
| they tell you it's 10.7 feet to your left?
|
| Or is this more like the older iPhones where it simply tells you
| if you're getting closer or further away?
| kelnos wrote:
| Based on the mockups and description in the article, it seems
| like it's the latter, unfortunately. If it did the UWB thing,
| I'm sure Google would have prominently pointed that out.
| MBCook wrote:
| That's what I was afraid of. It's nice that AirTags can tell
| if they're at home or whatever. But they got so much better
| with UWB on the phone for pinpoint locating.
|
| Hopefully they'll add that in the future.
| AlexanderTheGr8 wrote:
| Does anyone have a comparison of Airtag vs "Bluetooth tracker
| tags from Chipolo and Pebblebee"? I imagine Airtag is superior
| due to non-reliance on Bluetooth? Can Chipolo/Pebblebee tap into
| the Android network without Bluetooth? And is their tech
| comparable to Apple's work?
| ganarajpr wrote:
| The one thing I want to find is my earpods inside their case. I
| mean how hard is it to implement this for a company? Take my
| money please ? Just allow me to find my earpod and its case ?
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