[HN Gopher] Swiss satellite antennas make a comeback as solar po...
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       Swiss satellite antennas make a comeback as solar powerhouses
        
       Author : geox
       Score  : 68 points
       Date   : 2024-04-08 12:44 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
        
       | duxup wrote:
       | Is there a maintenance issue here?
       | 
       | Most solar setups I see seem to focus on simple static structure
       | that I presume is intended to be low cost / low maintenance.
       | 
       | Is maybe the altitude / exposure here maybe a substantial
       | advantage?
        
         | SiempreViernes wrote:
         | I think that they simply don't want to tear down the dishes
         | because they will be expensive to rebuild, so putting solar
         | panels on them is a way to get some money out of the dish that
         | will at least cover maintenance of the structure.
         | 
         | Then when in the future they need more capacity they can put in
         | better receivers and motors quickly.
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | Got it, might be "good enough while it's working" and can
           | reconsider later.
        
           | usrusr wrote:
           | The article does not mention it (or I did not find it
           | skimming), but I'd consider it safe to assume that there's
           | also a bit of a conservation angle: once a piece of alpine
           | engineering is established as part of the landscape, people
           | seem to like it a lot. Even the very same people who would
           | pick up torch and pitchfork against anything new I think.
           | Imagine the outrage a proposal to return the slopes of the 48
           | Stelvio hairpins back to their natural state, or the
           | Landwasser viaduct, or any of the Kaprun dams. As much
           | outrage as a proposal to install new heliostats on yet
           | untouched rocks would get, or perhaps even more.
           | 
           | Those dishes are monuments to what in hindsight is called the
           | Space Age and while they'd probably fail to qualify for
           | conservation for conservation's sake alone, giving them a
           | second career as heliostats seems like a very pragmatic way
           | too keep them, and keep them serviced even.
        
           | RajT88 wrote:
           | Plus, you never know when you might need a giant satellite
           | dish!
        
         | dewey wrote:
         | "They can be flexibly aligned with the sun and thus generate
         | more electricity than conventional solar panels."
        
       | JoeAltmaier wrote:
       | Got to be the most expensive possible way to put up a few square
       | meters of solar panels.
       | 
       | In Texas, where land is cheap and sun plentiful, they have a
       | project where they're just laying them out on the ground. No
       | support structure, no expensive clockwork to tip them this way
       | and that. They want to get more watts, they buy more dirt-cheap
       | panels and lay them on the ground too.
       | 
       | See, all that support structure costs more than the panels these
       | days. Way more. You want to spend your money wisely, ditch the
       | supports, buy more panels instead.
        
         | gaazoh wrote:
         | This is Switzerland, where land is not as plentiful as in
         | Texas, not by a long shot.
         | 
         | Plus, the support structure is free in this case, it's
         | definitely cheaper to lay solar panels on those dishes than
         | tearing them down just to lay panels on the floor. Also, having
         | solar panels laying flat on ground level sounds like skimming
         | on infrastructure to save money short term but having to pay
         | higher maintenance long term: you have to keep the panels
         | relatively clean for them to work, having them slanted and
         | elevated a bit means that less dirt get on top of them and rain
         | washes most of it regularly.
        
           | thomasmg wrote:
           | My guess is: the problem is not the price of the land or the
           | price of the structure, but the permits. In Switzerland, you
           | can put solar panels on existing buildings without requiring
           | a permit.
           | 
           | As the article says, there are many "large" solar panel
           | projects planned in Switzerland, specially in the mountains,
           | where the snow will reflect the light and increase
           | electricity production in winter (where electricity is the
           | most expensive). But it takes a very long time (sometimes
           | many, many years) until those projects are approved, if they
           | are approved at all. This is known to be a problem, and
           | government did try to speed this up, but it still is far too
           | slow. (I'm Swiss.)
        
           | JoeAltmaier wrote:
           | Texas uses robot vacuum cleaners. Not a lot of rain.
           | Definitely a sweet spot for them.
           | 
           | Anyway. I'd guess they'd do better to lay them on the ground
           | next to those dishes, than the expense of climbing up there
           | and fastening them to that massively expensive
           | superstructure. Not to mention the danger to life and limb,
           | climbing around up there.
           | 
           | Generally speaking it's just a mistake to mount solar panels
           | in some difficult-to-reach expensive place.
           | 
           | Optimal: A large flat space near the existing grid, with
           | generous road access and clearance. On cheap land and cheap
           | supports. Where it can be serviced, not too far from the
           | service center.
           | 
           | Those dishes fail on half of those metrics.
        
         | Mashimo wrote:
         | But what do you do if you own the a set size of land and
         | satellite antennas already?
         | 
         | Tearing the antennas down down also cost money.
         | 
         | I don't know the rules for new solar structures, but keep in
         | mind in some places in Switzerland you can't even paint the
         | house the color you want.
        
         | sidewndr46 wrote:
         | They've already got the dish. They can use it for solar panels
         | for now and if business comes back they could take them off and
         | use again for its intended purposes.
         | 
         | It's a little wacky, but at RF the dish performance isn't
         | actually degraded as much as you might think by the panels.
         | It's possible that at night the system could be used for its
         | original purpose and then in the daytime generate solar.
        
           | JoeAltmaier wrote:
           | Again, one step better than that is to just put them nearby,
           | at ground level. Safer, cheaper. And probably, don't go up
           | there into the mountains at all, but put them near the grid
           | in some convenient place. All improvements over climbing up
           | on dishes in the mountains.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | They're not mounted at all? Texas also has wind, and storms,
         | and tornados. I'd think panels literally lying loose on the
         | ground would be at too much risk of blowing away, or getting
         | covered in mud.
         | 
         | I can maybe see just mounting them to concrete sleepers or
         | something....
        
         | mNovak wrote:
         | The whole thing is a red herring. How many of these old
         | antennas exist, maybe a dozen? At "25 homes" each, it doesn't
         | meaningfully impact the cited 50 TWh need.
         | 
         | Sure the structure is free so why not, but even that needs
         | maintenance, just ask Arecibo. It's unclear from the article if
         | they plan to use these as sun-tracking panels, but the burden
         | of that would make it rapidly economically unfeasible.
        
         | rurp wrote:
         | Putting solar panels on existing structures, as is the case in
         | this article, is much better than on undisturbed land. The
         | upper crust in a lot of southwest desert stores a significant
         | amount of carbon which gets released when you tear it up for a
         | construction project. Such projects also use a lot of water,
         | which is a scarce resource in many desert areas. Plus
         | destroying the land harms a lot of native plants and wildlife.
         | 
         | Putting solar panels on existing structures avoids all of those
         | problems and produces just as much energy. There is a _lot_ of
         | space on existing buildings that doesn 't yet have solar panels
         | and we should be making much more of an effort to improve on
         | that.
        
       | h2odragon wrote:
       | "Global glut turns solar panels into garden fencing option"
       | 
       | https://archive.ph/AAIKe
        
         | ponector wrote:
         | >> US Treasury secretary Janet Yellen pressed China to stop
         | flooding the market with cheap green technology exports.
         | 
         | What a joke! Wouldn't everyone benefit from cheap green
         | technology?
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | US-based panel manufacturers won't benefit.
        
             | yumraj wrote:
             | Exactly, and when China has a monopoly, they can jack up
             | the prices.
        
               | bootsmann wrote:
               | But solar panels aren't chips, the hurdle for new
               | entrants is significantly lower. I don't think this is a
               | strategic move by China and more a result of Xis attempt
               | to reignite their economic growth.
        
           | amenhotep wrote:
           | It depends if they're actually producing them at that price,
           | right? If they are - and I do assume that's probably the case
           | - then that's great, everyone benefits from cheap solar
           | panels/whatever else and we can expect them to keep getting
           | cheaper, brilliant. If they _aren 't_, if they're losing
           | money on each panel/whatever they sell, then it's economic
           | warfare rather than progress and the point would be to drive
           | other manufacturers out of business. Not brilliant! Not good
           | for future expectations! Yellen would presumably be
           | justifying her stance based on a claim of (2) and maybe she
           | privately believes (1) and it's simple protectionism, but it
           | would be surprising if she admitted that.
        
             | hangonhn wrote:
             | Chinese industrial policy is quite a bit more sophisticated
             | than just dumping money and subsidizing industries. They
             | only do that in the beginning. They first subsidize and
             | erect barriers to outside competitors. It then becomes a
             | chaotic place with many domestic competitors. They then
             | lower (or eliminate) the subsidies and basically it becomes
             | survival of the fittest among the domestic producers. This
             | is when domestic producers innovate and become more
             | efficient. Once they are sufficiently strong and
             | competitive, they start taking down the barriers to foreign
             | competitors and also start exporting. This is exactly the
             | playbook they used for EVs.
             | 
             | (BTW, this isn't new or Chinese. Both Japan and South Korea
             | had done versions of this. Japan originally learned it from
             | Germany.)
             | 
             | All this to say by the time Yellen or anyone has started
             | complaining, the subsidizes are gone already. The Chinese
             | companies has been incubated into very competitive
             | companies.
             | 
             | The US is starting to reconsider the idea of industrial
             | policies now. The recent op-ed by Marco Rubio suggests even
             | the traditional free-market party is rethinking it.
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | > Chinese industrial policy is quite a bit more
               | sophisticated than just dumping money and subsidizing
               | industries. They only do that in the beginning.
               | 
               | > All this to say by the time Yellen or anyone has
               | started complaining, the subsidizes are gone already.
               | 
               | Just because the subsidies are gone doesn't mean they
               | haven't had their effect. Once you've already paid to
               | develop the technology and build the factory, the
               | incremental cost of making more units is much lower and
               | you can outcompete companies that never received
               | subsidies to do that.
               | 
               | > The US is starting to reconsider the idea of industrial
               | policies now. The recent op-ed by Marco Rubio suggests
               | even the traditional free-market party is rethinking it.
               | 
               | One of the big problems the US (and Europe) have is that
               | subsidies aren't just money. We keep passing rules the
               | cost of which can be absorbed by large established
               | companies, but make it harder to get new companies off
               | the ground. Meanwhile developing countries don't impose
               | those rules.
               | 
               | That isn't a short-term disaster when you already have a
               | lot of large established companies that have already
               | recovered their startup costs, but it's a long-term
               | disaster. New companies form in places where that isn't
               | the case, and those companies start to take market share
               | from your own established companies.
               | 
               | But it's a hard problem to solve because the inefficiency
               | doesn't have a single cause. It's not some specific
               | individual rule, it's the existence of thousands of
               | separate rules that require teams of compliance
               | bureaucrats to operate under, and identifying and
               | eliminating the ones that can't survive a cost/benefit
               | analysis is specialized detail-oriented work not easily
               | turned into a sound bite. Meanwhile the ones who most
               | know how to identify the least efficient rules are the
               | compliance bureaucrats, but they want to keep them
               | because that's their paycheck.
        
         | Moto7451 wrote:
         | For what it's worth, with Bifacial panels (they make power from
         | both sides) and the right layout, vertical panels like a fence
         | actually do work.
        
           | mey wrote:
           | https://youtu.be/5AVO1IyfA9M this person did a side by side
           | experiment on their property with both angled and vertical
           | bifacial with some interesting results. Their advantage
           | didn't seem to be efficiency but consistency.
        
       | WaitWaitWha wrote:
       | Just want to know, why are they using bifacial solar panels,
       | considering the cost benefits?
        
         | nolist_policy wrote:
         | AFAIK it's not uncommon for the cells to be visible from both
         | sides even with normal panels.
        
       | ambyra wrote:
       | Is that really the optimal arrangement for solar panels on a
       | dish? Looks like 40% empty
        
         | sedatk wrote:
         | I'm more like a glass 60% full kind of person.
        
         | ape4 wrote:
         | Of course, the issue is fitting rectangular panels into a
         | circle. Since, apparently, solar panels are cheap now - perhaps
         | they could overlap panels to cover all of the circle.
        
           | whiterock wrote:
           | Overlapping doesn't work due to the fact that individual
           | small cells of a bigger panel - when shaded - greatly
           | diminish the output of the entire solar panel.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | And yet they left the focal point and its support poles
             | there. No I agree with the people calling
             | bullshit/publicity stunt. This array irritates me.
        
               | ambyra wrote:
               | Yeah when I read the title I thought they were covering
               | the old dish with mirrors and putting a collector at the
               | focal point. This is much less interesting :(
        
               | hinkley wrote:
               | Right!?
        
               | robocat wrote:
               | I presume they point the dish at the sun, so the shadow
               | is in a fixed position. However the video shows during
               | installation so not pointing at sun - but shadows that
               | you see don't appear significant
        
         | turtlebits wrote:
         | Considering it wasn't built to support solar panels, maybe
         | that's all the mount/dish can support?
        
         | akira2501 wrote:
         | It's leaving the feedhorn in I find the most baffling. Now you
         | have a giant shadow generator right in the middle of your
         | setup. Why?
        
       | Aspos wrote:
       | My old house has a roof with complex geometry which does not lend
       | itself to rectangular solar panels. I wonder why triangles are
       | not the standard shape for solar panels as triangular panels
       | would be more efficient in tiling surfaces available.
       | 
       | I bet those antennas can be tiled more efficiently with
       | triangles.
        
         | Hextinium wrote:
         | Solar panels are themselves tiled by roundish wafers cut to
         | make squares out of circles. To make them triangles throws away
         | a different tiling advantage.
        
           | Aspos wrote:
           | But triangle is a rectangle cut in half, no?
        
             | lazide wrote:
             | From a manufacturing and installation perspective,
             | triangles are twice the hassle for a given square footage.
        
               | Aspos wrote:
               | True! Assuming manufacturing will be +10% and
               | installation will take 2x time and assuming half panel
               | will produce half the power, my back of the napkin
               | calculation suggests my solar roof would pay for itself
               | not in 5 but in 6 years and would keep producing $ for
               | the rest of its lifespan.
        
               | lazide wrote:
               | My point is that you're an expensive niche (manufacturing
               | and installation wise) in a market usually competing on
               | $/sqft.
               | 
               | Manufacturing would be more than +10% because existing
               | lines would need to be retooled to produce it, and it
               | would require different packaging. Volume will be lower
               | as well, so margins need to be higher. 50% more
               | expensive? Or maybe even the same price as a normal panel
               | twice the wattage.
               | 
               | Installation would be more than 2x because standard
               | mounting wouldn't work, so it would be 3x the time
               | (probably) plus figuring out how to mount them. Since you
               | have an odd shaped roof, that would also likely increase
               | difficulty/costs.
               | 
               | Very high snow load or flexible solar panels are similar
               | (but larger) niches.
               | 
               | Looks like someone does make them though! And my guess is
               | someone does already have all the mounting knowledge, it
               | just may not be the regular solar install guy, so it may
               | take tracking someone down.
               | 
               | [https://lasolarfactory.com/en/products/triangle-solar-
               | module...]
               | 
               | Unlike the other products in their site, that link
               | doesn't have specs and wants someone to 'contact us for
               | details' which doesn't seem like a good sign.
               | 
               | This is also why utility scale solar has been the trend
               | lately - it's often more economical to turn some random
               | low value flat land half way across the state/country
               | into a maximally cost effective solar installation and
               | then sell the power. Which means square panels on the
               | simplest and easiest racking they can figure out.
               | 
               | Every random person figuring out their own bespoke
               | solution is a lot more expensive.
               | 
               | if it will actually pay back that quickly, that's awesome
               | - then you get to bypass whatever insanity your utility
               | is doing to cause those high prices. I haven't heard of
               | any up to code installations having nearly that good a
               | payoff. Where are you located?
               | 
               | Bespoke is a lot more fun/cooler though.
        
               | Aspos wrote:
               | Makes sense. Thanks! I am in NJ and my house has good
               | insolation. And with all the federal and state incentives
               | plus no-financing cash purchase solar panels may pay off
               | just like installer is promising. I wish I had a larger
               | and flatter roof though.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | Triangle would have wiring problems.
        
         | pkirk wrote:
         | This italian company https://www.trienergia.com/ [Trienergia]
         | produces (in Italy!) triangular panels.
        
           | MiguelHudnandez wrote:
           | The panels themselves are squares fit into triangular frames.
           | But there is a lot of empty space on the dish installation
           | and this would absolutely use more total panel area.
           | 
           | See product page & screenshot: https://www.trienergia.com/pro
           | dotti/residenziale/73/modulo-f...
        
       | wkat4242 wrote:
       | Weird, a parabolic dish makes no sense if you point it directly
       | at the sun. Most panels will be pointed at suboptimal angles. A
       | flat plate mounted on the existing az/el tracking of the original
       | dish would be optimal. Stuff that plate full of panels and track
       | the whole contraption to the sun and all panels will be perfectly
       | aligned.
       | 
       | If you replace the panels with mirrors and have an ultra
       | efficient high power panel in the middle the dish form factor
       | would work (and this is how they built them in the 80s though I
       | think they were heating water for steam back then) but that's not
       | what they're doing here.
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | Yeah the real story here seems to be that solar panels now so
         | cheap that people can waste them on pointless stunts like this.
        
           | pcl wrote:
           | Put more generously: solar panels are so cheap that other
           | factors (existing scaffold, ease of installation, aesthetics,
           | ...) dominate installation decisions.
        
         | zardo wrote:
         | You save maybe a few thousand dollars in solar panels by
         | installing the flat plate, but you have to validate the
         | additional structure.
        
         | Scoundreller wrote:
         | > Most panels will be pointed at suboptimal angles.
         | 
         | I do wonder how electricity pricing plays into this: having
         | panels that are optimized for production in mornings and
         | afternoons will produce less overall, but could provide more
         | valuable power overall.
        
           | blkhawk wrote:
           | you could just add a triangular shim under each panel that
           | make them flat towards a common level. Each ring would need
           | their own shim height but since you need some mounting
           | hardware anyway this would add only a bit of weight.
        
             | wkat4242 wrote:
             | Good point! That would work yeah. The placement will have
             | to be modified a bit to avoid shadows but that would work
             | just as well.
        
             | nick7376182 wrote:
             | Mounting hardware like that can easily cost nearly as much
             | as the panels with how cheap panels can be right now, and
             | the cost of the extra labor to install standoffs.
        
               | happyopossum wrote:
               | That mounting hardware shouldn't cost any more than
               | standard mounting hardware - it'd be a simple matter of
               | making one pair of standoffs taller than the other. You
               | are going to need standoffs, and the labor to install
               | them anyway.
        
               | crote wrote:
               | Yes, but suddenly you need _different_ kinds of standoffs
               | instead of one uniform size. This makes manufacturing a
               | bit more expensive, logistics a bit more challenging, and
               | installation a bit more complicated.
               | 
               | All of this means it's going to be more expensive than
               | standard mounting hardware. Not by a lot, but solar
               | panels have become cheap enough that even small
               | differences matter.
        
               | tzakrajs wrote:
               | Yes, but on my napkin, all of this will create
               | significantly more power which more than offsets those
               | costs.
        
           | akira2501 wrote:
           | The entire thing is on a coaxial mount. If you need less
           | power, just turn it away from the sun, intentionally
           | designing suboptimal features to chase uneven demand loads
           | (between winter and summer) would not be a worthwhile
           | strategy.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Plus they should have removed the collector, as the arms will
         | cause some of the panels to block energy flow in the system.
         | 
         | I'm also not convinced this is the densest layout for the
         | panels. Pretty sure I could get 5-10% more onto this dish, not
         | counting removing the focus.
        
           | turtlebits wrote:
           | The antennas/mount are rated for a certain amount of weight
           | and might not support fully packed panels.
        
         | xkcd-sucks wrote:
         | There's something heartwarming about this: Just slapping a
         | bunch of panels on any old abandoned structures and calling it
         | a day seems so fundamentally un-Swiss -- It's like they're
         | starting to become human!
         | 
         | (In humor of course -- Switzerland is impressive, I'm fully
         | aware that there's plenty of rural agriculture and other such
         | "suboptimal imperfection" there etc.)
        
         | turtlebits wrote:
         | With microinverters it doesn't really matter if some panels
         | aren't optimally places.
         | 
         | A flat plate won't have the rigidity of the existing dish, and
         | replacing it probably will cost more than the project is worth.
        
         | beambot wrote:
         | I assumed this was going to be about repurposing the dish as a
         | solar concentrator, but they're literally just lining the dish
         | with standard solar cells. This makes no sense beyond the PR
         | value -- you could literally just put these panels on a
         | southward-facing slope and get better net efficiency...
        
       | panick21_ wrote:
       | We should have been building new nuclear reactors for the last 20
       | years. Its so fucking obvious it isn't even funny. At least our
       | idiot nation didn't follow the fucking morons in Germany with
       | their 'destroy the nuclear fleet' policy.
        
         | Morelesshell wrote:
         | Its not obvious.
         | 
         | And stop insulting my country.
         | 
         | WE have a long history of nuclear power and the incident in
         | Tschernobyl was a real big WTF moment for us.
         | 
         | My parents were probably young parents and it was not clear at
         | all what the real impact was. The news suggested to clean/wash
         | all vegetables and still TODAY you need to check your hunt for
         | too high radiactive values.
         | 
         | It was NEVER obvious and Fukushima showed again HOW unreliable
         | it can be and how little we know about this.
         | 
         | Am i against Nuclear? No.
         | 
         | But you would never have been able to push for nuclear 20 years
         | ago because it took ages to even get climate change on the
         | proper radar.
         | 
         | I also believe, that at least in germany, we don't need it. It
         | will be easier and cheaper and better to invest A LOT in PV,
         | Wind, Battery and EVs.
         | 
         | Economy of scale, independency, cheap, easy, win-win.
         | 
         | Edit: PV are just crystals, they should be even cheaper to
         | build than now and with more flexible PVs you can do a lot of
         | interesting and reasonable things. You can use them as fences
         | (there was already a news article about it), you can put them
         | on facades, around light posts, on your balcony, use them as
         | sun shades etc.
         | 
         | Wind became a lot better with no one really talking about it.
         | And wind energy grows quadratically by radius. Big wind mills
         | make A LOT more energy
         | 
         | Batteries will be a game changer. We need them for EVs anway,
         | we use them in laptops and smartphones. In germany we have a
         | very good power grid but in 2th world countries like the USA
         | you have a lot of Grid problems. Add batteries to it. And even
         | in countries like canada you have the 'outback' with grid
         | issues after bad weather.
         | 
         | Alone the batteries for EVs will help a lot of providing
         | necessary buffer capacity.
         | 
         | We tend to forget how big and impactfull our oil consumption
         | actually is. Its a lot easier to have batteries and 'thin'
         | power lines than transporting oil from the ground to refineries
         | to gas stations.
         | 
         | The current situation is not better, its just paid off
        
           | panick21_ wrote:
           | I'm Swiss. Complaining is what we do.
           | 
           | > WE have a long history of nuclear power and the incident in
           | Tschernobyl was a real big WTF moment for us.
           | 
           | Sadly yes, but at least we didn't lose our brain as much as
           | Germany.
           | 
           | The whole 'we are psychologically damaged and so can't
           | evaluate properly' doesn't really work for me as an argument.
           | 
           | Yes, my parents are also psychologically damaged by this
           | episode, if you show them scientific data they get angry. The
           | last 50 years of fear mongering and propaganda have worked
           | well. The whole 'any mushroom might kill you' is just
           | nonsense.
           | 
           | > But you would never have been able to push for nuclear 20
           | years ago because it took ages to even get climate change on
           | the proper radar.
           | 
           | Nuclear is a good idea climate change or not. Most nuclear
           | reactors were build for practical reasons not climate.
           | 
           | And nuclear would have been commercially the best option by
           | far, if back then we actually evaluate coal plants the same
           | way as we do now in terms of fossil fuels and regulation.
           | 
           | We already have the right combination, water and nuclear. But
           | instead of having our own policy we adopted the 'Germany will
           | surely have cheap energy for us' strategy and that backfired.
           | 
           | > I also believe, that at least in germany, we don't need it.
           | It will be easier and cheaper and better to invest A LOT in
           | PV, Wind, Battery and EVs.
           | 
           | My math indicates something very different. Germany in 2000
           | had 20% nuclear, even with minimal learning effects, building
           | nuclear would have been considerably cheaper then all the
           | cost Germany had for their 'green' (coal energy) strategy.
           | Not just the investment, Germany also had very high
           | electricity prices during that whole time. And with the
           | energy crises the amount of money they are using reduce the
           | impact of the energy crisis is immense.
           | 
           | And with all that investment and cost, they aren't even close
           | to fully replacing fossil fuel.
           | 
           | Battery are nonsense, so far can only be used for grid
           | stabilization, not any serious outage. And if you take the
           | cost large scale batteries (that have yet to be invented)
           | into account, the whole solar/wind/battery plan looks even
           | worse.
           | 
           | Go look at Li-Battery prices, they are not coming down in
           | price anywhere as close to as people thought. And the grid
           | scale battery startups are all taking much, much longer then
           | claimed or are bankrupt.
           | 
           | > Economy of scale, independency, cheap, easy, win-win.
           | 
           | A single nuclear reactor is economics of scale. And if you
           | build many of them, you get economics of scale in that too.
           | 
           | As I said, even if you consider the price paid by UAE for
           | South Korean plants (literally built in a country with no
           | nuclear regulator and no educated workforce), and you just
           | take that cost. Germany would have saved money. If you take
           | into account the cost reduction from building 40-50 plants,
           | its not even close.
           | 
           | The simple fact is the fastest most efficent and cheapest de-
           | fossilization ever done has been done with nuclear. We have
           | literal prove that this is true. When all these countries
           | were sitting around formulating the Kyoto protocol, France
           | already had a green grid.
           | 
           | P.S: Fukushima killed less people then German coal plants do
           | every year. German coal plants have been systematically
           | murdering the population for centuries, not to mention
           | causing all kinds of health issues, particularly in children.
           | All this ridiculous panic about radioactive mushrooms,
           | despite there not being a single reliable cause of death from
           | that while everybody is having lung issues because of coal.
           | Its just incredible how people who are usually smart and
           | informed on a subject believe all the Greenpeace panic
           | propaganda.
           | 
           | Turning of nuclear before coal is a gross criminal act, and
           | the people responsible should be imprisoned.
        
       | Morelesshell wrote:
       | While i'm slightly surprised by the overall quality of the
       | comments here:
       | 
       | It looks really really neat.
       | 
       | It looks like something out of a scifi movie and i like big
       | dishes.
        
       | Lukas_Skywalker wrote:
       | A bit of a tangent, but I think the dishes they are using here
       | were once part of Onyx, a rather large communication interception
       | system [0].
       | 
       | It got famous in 2006 when it intercepted proof of CIA black
       | sites (mentioned in the Wikipedia article as well). Until then,
       | the Swiss public didn't really know the scope of the system.
       | 
       | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx_(interception_system)
        
       | gumby wrote:
       | > "Former satellite antennas are ideal as solar energy systems,"
       | 
       | Trackers almost never make economic sense; panels are now so
       | cheap that it is usually cheaper to just take up more area.
       | 
       | But when the hardware has already been deployed and then
       | abandoned, this can work. Hence the word "former" in that quote
       | in the article!
        
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       (page generated 2024-04-08 23:01 UTC)