[HN Gopher] She slept with a violin on her pillow
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       She slept with a violin on her pillow
        
       Author : tintinnabula
       Score  : 135 points
       Date   : 2024-04-05 03:37 UTC (19 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
        
       | nf3 wrote:
       | https://archive.ph/ymimZ
        
       | sooheon wrote:
       | It's interesting they talk more about visual embellishments (aged
       | paper, vintage looking finish) than acoustic properties. What is
       | it about Stradivari or other hand made instruments that make them
       | so coveted, are desirable sonic characteristics measurable and
       | traceable to manufacturing techniques? Or is it all just halo
       | effect?
        
         | ramenbytes wrote:
         | Indeed. I've heard that certain acoustic guitar makers are
         | starting do certain types of scientific analyses of the wood
         | they buy for the guitar body to ascertain how it will behave, I
         | wonder if there is any work being done in the violin community
         | to quantify the behavior of their instruments. If anyone knows
         | of an equivalent of Zollner's _Physics of the Electric Guitar_
         | [0] for violins please share!
         | 
         | [0] https://gitec-forum-eng.de/the-book/
        
           | holri wrote:
           | The guitar maker I know knocks on the raw soundboard and
           | listens very close to the response. He can tell how it will
           | sound in a guitar and how the guitar has to be built to
           | support this particular soundboard and wanted characteristics
           | of the guitar. (There are a lot of variables) He explained
           | the difference in the knock response, and as musicians we
           | could hear the difference too.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | It is called tap tuning and violin makers have been doing
             | it for years. We don't know what Stradivarius, but nobody
             | would be surprised by the claim that he was doing the same
             | thing when making his violins.
             | 
             | There is however a lot of debate in the luthier community
             | on if it actually matters. Some claim it does and spend a
             | lot of time on it, and have even setup fancy test fixtures
             | to show patterns with different frequencies. However some
             | claim it makes no difference and [I'm not sure what]. Both
             | produce great instruments.
        
         | lolinder wrote:
         | I suspect the focus on the visuals has more to do with the
         | journalist's perspective as a layperson than the focus of the
         | luthiers.
         | 
         | My wife is a professional cellist and cello teacher, and she
         | absolutely can tell the difference between a handmade
         | instrument and a factory-made one. I've watched her appraise
         | dozens of student cellos, and even though I can't hear the
         | difference myself, I know how good an instrument is from the
         | look on her face a few seconds into playing it. She never looks
         | at the label or pays attention to the appearance of the body,
         | the sound is the _only_ thing that sets the good instruments
         | apart for her.
         | 
         | As I understand it, the difference between a crafted instrument
         | and a factory one lies in the way the creator adapts (or
         | doesn't) to the natural grain of the wood. A handmade
         | instrument by an expert can't be beaten by a factory process
         | because each piece of wood resonates differently and those
         | differences must be accounted for to get a good sound.
        
           | livueta wrote:
           | I was only ever a mediocre cellist (Suzuki book 7) but my
           | sister was legit good and won a scholarship-ish thing to
           | borrow some hundreds-of-years-old cello worth six figures.
           | When playing it, even I could immediately tell the difference
           | between it and my mass-produced Yamaha.
        
             | KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
             | > _When playing it, even I could immediately tell the
             | difference between it and my mass-produced Yamaha._
             | 
             | I would imagine the CNC milled Yamahas to have much better
             | quality control. It's the same in horology, "hand crafted"
             | Swiss/German watches are valued over precision cut assembly
             | line Seikos even though the Seiko complications are
             | magnitudes more accurate and reliable than the Swiss ones.
        
               | Ekaros wrote:
               | I could see differences due to materials. Wood is not
               | uniform product, so picking the right section for right
               | part might do something minor. Metal is metal and we get
               | very exact and uniform properties with modern
               | manufacturing.
               | 
               | Now maybe we could question why have we not come up with
               | anything better for these wood instruments? Like some
               | mixture of plastic?
        
               | codr7 wrote:
               | Carbon fiber seems to work reasonably well for guitars, I
               | don't own one but I've tried them out and I think they're
               | perfectly fine.
        
               | varjag wrote:
               | It's closer to a difference between mass retail and
               | tailor fitted clothes. Big vendors have great quality
               | control too, but it's not the robustness of the stitch or
               | uniformity of color that's important here.
        
               | sandspar wrote:
               | You must be right, those thousands of professional violin
               | players who've been playing since kindergarten are just
               | deluding themselves.
        
               | omnibrain wrote:
               | I think there is some survivorship bias at work. An
               | instrument that feels and plays great was just more
               | likely to survive several hundred years.
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | "Quality control" doesn't tell you what standard they
               | have for acceptable, just that such a standard exists.
               | 
               | I've heard that it is quite straightforward with modern
               | tools to make new violins which pass a blind test against
               | a Stradivarius -- I wouldn't know myself -- but that
               | doesn't mean those with a target price of PS500 are
               | actually made to this standard.
        
           | Scoundreller wrote:
           | > She never looks at the label or pays attention to the
           | appearance of the body, the sound is the only thing that sets
           | the good instruments apart for her.
           | 
           | This kind of study/comparison really needs better blinding.
           | 
           | While not the same thing, as an example, blind auditions for
           | orchestras really changed the demographics of who got
           | selected.
           | 
           | > However, after adopting 'blind hiring' techniques, the TSO
           | saw an increase of women being admitted from 25% to 46%.
           | 
           | https://www.fairhire.org/quest/orchestrating-equity-a-
           | brief-...
        
             | vlabakje90 wrote:
             | Apparently, people can tell the difference. They do seem to
             | prefer newer violins over the old ones:
             | 
             | https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1619443114
             | 
             | >"We find that [violin soloists] generally prefer new
             | violins over Stradivaris, consider them better-projecting,
             | and are no better than players at telling new and old
             | apart."
        
               | sandspar wrote:
               | Violin playing is an expressive performance art. Feeling
               | transcendent makes experts play better.
               | 
               | Do you think Richard Burton would have acted Hamlet
               | better, the same, or worse, if he knew that Shakespeare
               | himself were in the audience?
        
               | ravin_gees wrote:
               | Great way to put it
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | Ugh. I hate it when the playwright comes to shows. They
               | always have _opinions_.
               | 
               | Their work is over. The words are set. Now let me do my
               | job, figuring out how to say them and how to move. It's
               | between me and the director. We're the ones who can see
               | the set, know the other actors, feel what the audience is
               | responding to.
               | 
               | One thing I love about doing Shakespeare: he's very
               | sparing with stage directions. He lets the words speak
               | for themselves. Often, they suggest how I should sound,
               | when I should be silent, how to move. But he rarely
               | enforces an action on me. And even better... because he's
               | dead, he's not going to come at us if we cut something we
               | don't like, or rearrange.
               | 
               | Modern playwrights love to tell me when to take a (beat).
               | Guys... you wrote the words. I'll figure out how fast to
               | say them. You did your job. Now stay home and let me do
               | mine.
        
               | thefaux wrote:
               | This comment comes across as arrogant and dismissive of
               | authors. Maybe this is a common attitude in theater but
               | it doesn't come across as very collaborative from the
               | outside.
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | It was intended to come off as exaggerated for humor, but
               | clearly that didn't convey. I'm sorry for that.
               | 
               | That said... most of the time, playwrights aren't
               | supposed to collaborate with actors. It's not a one-to-
               | one interaction. The playwright writes, makes it
               | available through a service like Samuel French, and has
               | no connection with the actual performances.
               | 
               | They may collaborate with actors and directors during the
               | writing process. That's a different thing from the
               | ordinary work of an actor.
               | 
               | Actors collaborate a _lot_ -- with each other, with the
               | director, with the lights and sound and tech and props.
               | Adding one more voice -- even that of the playwright --
               | often makes it worse, rather than better.
               | 
               | In particular (switching to my director's hat rather than
               | my actor's hat), it is important that I be the final word
               | on the show. That sounds arrogant, and of course it is,
               | but in a conventional theater process the director's job
               | is to keep all of the other artists working together.
               | That's what makes it look like a finished, cohesive work,
               | rather than a collection of individual performances.
               | 
               | A common faux pas in theatrical circles is for a writer
               | to bypass the director and give directions to the actors.
               | That is very much a no-no. Actors work _together_ , not
               | as individuals, and a writer telling an actor something
               | different from what the director tells them gives the
               | work a disjointed feeling. If a writer has notes, they go
               | to the director -- who has to be free to ignore them.
               | 
               | Writers, of course, chafe at this. And it's worse when
               | they don't have experience as actors or directors
               | themselves, because they don't know how the process
               | works.
        
           | jdietrich wrote:
           | _> As I understand it, the difference between a crafted
           | instrument and a factory one lies in the way the creator
           | adapts (or doesn't) to the natural grain of the wood. A
           | handmade instrument by an expert can't be beaten by a factory
           | process because each piece of wood resonates differently and
           | those differences must be accounted for to get a good sound._
           | 
           | Violin makers have, sadly, decided to pursue a complete dead
           | end, because of the near-universal preoccupation with old
           | instruments. Stradivarius violins have become the platonic
           | ideal, therefore any new violin can never be better than a
           | close copy. Improvement of the instrument is not merely
           | discouraged, but definitionally impossible. In blind tests,
           | players and listeners consistently either fail to distinguish
           | between old and new instruments or prefer modern instruments,
           | but these findings have had essentially no impact on
           | attitudes.
           | 
           | There is no Greg Smallman, Lucien Gelas or Ervin Somogyi of
           | violins, nor will there be without significant cultural
           | change.
        
             | bradley13 wrote:
             | _"...the near-universal preoccupation with old instruments
             | "_
             | 
             | This, and it's actually kind of sad. There have been
             | double-blind tests that show that Stradivarius violins are
             | acoustically nothing special: experts cannot pick them out
             | by sound alone, or may actually prefer other violins. One
             | example: https://www.science.org/content/article/million-
             | dollar-strad...
             | 
             | It's sort of like the crazy prices paid for paintings by
             | "old masters". Even when the paintings are nothing special
             | to look at. Even when the "old master" in question ran a
             | factory, where his students did most of the painting and he
             | just did some final touches and signed the things.
        
               | ralfd wrote:
               | It is more complicated. Modern violins can be louder, and
               | audience generally think loud=better, but this may not
               | what the player prefers or what is wanted in an
               | orchestra. There is also the issue of playing an
               | instrument only an hour vs playing an instrument for a
               | tour or longer time.
               | 
               | https://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/20121/13039/
               | 
               | This is a description by one contestant who participated
               | in the 2010 test. She generally likes that new violins
               | can sound really good, but she criticizes:
               | 
               | > As for the old violins: one was a Guarneri del Gesu
               | (circa 1740) and two were Antonio Stradivari (circa 1700
               | and 1715) "These violins were loaned with the stipulation
               | that they remain in the condition in which we received
               | them -- precluding any tonal adjustments or even changing
               | the strings." That means that, whatever happened to the
               | old violins during their trip -- if they got jostled on
               | the airplane, etc. -- there was no soundpost adjustment,
               | no bridge adjustment, no check for open seams. If the
               | strings were a little older, they were a little older.
               | ... My concern is this: it sounds to me like the older
               | instruments were not optimized -- by either selection or
               | by luthier adjustments -- while the new moderns were.
               | 
               | There are also differences between Stradivarius. In the
               | formal test one old Stradivarius was universally disliked
               | and in an informal test a modern violin beat an old
               | strad. She wonders if that was the same model:
               | 
               | > [...] During the same event when this study took place,
               | another more informal "study" was done by those who did
               | this one. While jurors were deliberating over the outcome
               | of the Indianapolis violin competition, the audience that
               | was gathered was asked to evaluate some moderns vs. old
               | Italians. Indianapolis Symphony Concertmaster Zach De Pue
               | played four pairs of violins, allowing the audience to
               | decide which they liked best of each pair, based on
               | playing excerpts from "Scheherazade" and Strauss's 'Don
               | Juan.' Each pair included one old and one modern violin.
               | The votes were very close each time, but ultimately the
               | audience chose one modern violin and three Strads, from
               | the years 1699, 1714 and 1715. Several more tests and
               | votes narrowed the fiddles to the one the audience liked
               | best: Jimmy Lin's 1715 Strad. (Was that non-preferred
               | Strad from the study in the mix? I'm guessing it was, and
               | it was the one not-preferred).
        
               | Aidevah wrote:
               | It should be mentioned that "old" violins that are still
               | used today have all been substantially rebuilt to
               | accommodate later repertories. There is a lot of
               | difference between an early Baroque violin and a late
               | 19th century violin including the fingerboard and the
               | type of strings, and only a few museum strads that have
               | not been played have retained their original
               | configuration. One benefit of the early music movement
               | that took off in the second half of the 20th century was
               | realising that the "old" and "original" instruments
               | weren't actually that old or original after all, and new
               | baroque violins had to be made from scratch to attempt to
               | reproduce what they would have sounded back like in the
               | 17th and 18th centuries.
        
               | koverstreet wrote:
               | It's more than that - the bass bar on modern instruments
               | is substantially heavier, because string tension with
               | modern wire wound strings is higher than baroque era gut
               | strings; the older instruments are more lightly built.
               | 
               | The tone you get with gut strings is completely different
               | than with modern strings - more complex, more resonances,
               | but a modern style instrument will deaden that somewhat,
               | you really want a period instrument to take advantage of
               | gut strings.
               | 
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y4lcQ7BTLw
               | 
               | The neck is also different, but that affects reaching the
               | high end of the fingerboard more than accoustics.
        
               | derefr wrote:
               | It may be that the old violins are preferred _as tools_
               | because they somehow help the player achieve the same
               | (optimal for their skill level?) sound, _more easily and
               | consistently_.
               | 
               | Think of a car that is less effortful to drive. From
               | external appearances, the same driving is happening
               | either way. But inside, the "worse" car has a lot of
               | compensating on the part of the driver, while the
               | "better" car does not.
        
               | timbeccue wrote:
               | It's a good hypothesis. Anecdotally though, I know a
               | bunch of people who have experience playing both, and say
               | that the old instruments can be difficult to play, though
               | sound amazing when played well.
        
               | scotty79 wrote:
               | It might be purely due to how expensive they are.
               | 
               | MRI studies proven that people really do draw more
               | pleasure from tasting wine when they know it's expensive.
        
               | cduzz wrote:
               | I imagine some people would also derive more pleasure
               | from knowing they're eating the last of a particular
               | species, or walking on a floor made from the last of a
               | particular irreplaceable forest, or racing a car that is
               | the car that was raced in historical race of ages past,
               | or even winning a rai stone in a game of backgammon. All
               | exclusive experiences.
        
               | analog31 wrote:
               | >>> There have been double-blind tests that show that
               | Stradivarius violins are acoustically nothing special:
               | experts cannot pick them out by sound alone, or may
               | actually prefer other violins.
               | 
               | This is widely acknowledged among violinists. In fact
               | there is a growing concern that the Strads are
               | deteriorating. The vast majority of working musicians
               | have never handled a Strad.
        
             | derefr wrote:
             | I've always wondered whether a violin is even a
             | particularly good UX for making violin noises. The shape
             | (and therefore most of the UX) is constrained in the
             | analogue domain... but in the digital domain?
             | 
             | I've been consistently surprised to see that unlike with
             | e.g. MIDI "keyboard controllers" (which have evolved and
             | diverged into many different forms for different use-cases,
             | like sequencer button pads), there is no similar
             | experimentation in what form an "electric violin" for
             | greenfield players could tak. Nothing like, say, an
             | instrument played with one finger of each hand along
             | pressure-sensitive slider pads for 4D continuous input.
        
               | analog31 wrote:
               | Make one and find out. People are experimenting with all
               | kinds of novel ideas. Nobody's restrained by tradition.
        
           | atoav wrote:
           | As a guitar and bass player one thing that is rarely talked
           | about is that every individual instrument with its particular
           | sweetspots creates a feedback cycle with the player.
           | 
           | That means even if two instruments are capable of
           | theoretically producing the same sounds, it can _feel_
           | fundamentally different to get there as an instrumentalist,
           | thus each instrument has a character that goes beyond just
           | sound. This is an especially critical point if you are
           | improvising.
           | 
           | This is btw. also why many electrical guitarists insist on
           | loudly cranked amps: the feedback that developes between
           | speaker and guitar allows you to play the guitar differently
           | as each note will sustain longer (or even grow in volume as
           | you let go).
        
             | koverstreet wrote:
             | the sound of an electric guitar right on the edge of
             | breakup
        
           | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
           | I remember visiting a friend, while in high school (in the
           | 1970s). He lived in a fairly exclusive area.
           | 
           | He showed me his electric guitar. It was unbranded, pretty
           | plain, and beat up. Sort of a Gibson Les Paul-looking thing,
           | made of some solid light wood. Maybe maple.
           | 
           | When he played it, it sounded _amazing_. I couldn 't believe
           | the sound came from that raggedy-ass-looking axe.
           | 
           | It was made by a family friend. A chap named Paul Reed Smith.
        
           | inerte wrote:
           | I've watched a few YouTube videos of people with their eyes
           | covered listening to acoustic guitars, and they try to pick
           | which one is more expensive. Some after a few picks can even
           | tell the brand and model. It's pretty remarkable.
        
         | radarsat1 wrote:
         | There's actually lots of research on that topic, if you search
         | for "Stradivarius blind listening" on Google Scholar you'll
         | find some. Can't recommend a specific article unfortunately,
         | but it's an interesting topic. My current understanding is that
         | there is no perceptual difference that has been proven, and
         | even later models are blindly judged to be better.
        
         | UberFly wrote:
         | They are like an 18th century Japanese katana. The masters were
         | unparalleled at creating revered quality. They would be my
         | first choice in collecting. Tho, if my life depended on it, I'd
         | take a blade crafted with modern technology.
        
           | porkbeer wrote:
           | But you would be (half) wrong. Modern metalurgy trounces
           | 10000 times folded, quenched in ancient fire. Modern shaping
           | techiques are better and we can achieve a lighter, more
           | flexible and tough blade. The issue is we dont. There is no
           | reason to. Nobody is trusting their life to a katana today.
           | so very few quality ones are made anymore. they are now more
           | a symbol than a tool.
        
         | bsder wrote:
         | > What is it about Stradivari or other hand made instruments
         | that make them so coveted, are desirable sonic characteristics
         | measurable and traceable to manufacturing techniques? Or is it
         | all just halo effect?
         | 
         | It 90% halo effect.
         | 
         | However, the wood, in particular, for the Stradivarii came from
         | forests that had suffered droughts and was quite a bit denser
         | than expected for that species.
         | 
         | That having been said, wood _degrades_. It doesn 't matter if
         | you put magic varnish on it or not. Wood ages nicely in
         | instruments for about 10 years. Then it's good for about 50
         | years. After 50 it starts noticably degrading, and the more
         | heavily used the more it degrades.
         | 
         | You will note that the Strads are _long_ past the point that
         | the wood is  "good". People who play violins can tell. However,
         | nobody involved in a "blind" test is going to slag violins that
         | might be Strads--that would be bad for their reputation.
         | 
         | Ironically, those Strads aren't completely original, either.
         | They have been repaired to various degrees over the years,
         | given more modern bridges, etc. So, we get a Ship of Theseus
         | argument.
         | 
         | As for modern handmade violins, the top ones are easily as good
         | or even better than Strads. Strads may have been "magic" in the
         | 1700s and 1800s, but we have really good control of things,
         | better measurement, better analysis, better materials, etc. in
         | the modern era.
         | 
         | Luthierie in the 2000s is still art, but it's got a _lot_ of
         | science backing it up nowadays.
        
       | ultimoo wrote:
       | "Oh cool violin! Looks like it has a lot of history?"
       | 
       | "Nah it was actually made in 2022 and that's a made up name on a
       | fake label lol"
       | 
       | Sorry if I come across as ignorant but scratching something with
       | pasta and using yellowed book pages to give it an artificially
       | aged look is dishonest, especially for a $18k object made by a
       | skilled artisan. I'm sure it looks and plays great in its mint
       | form.
        
         | metadat wrote:
         | This part also rubbed me the wrong way. Synthetic aging
         | techniques kill the appeal of the craft of creating a truly
         | genuine, exquisite instrument.
         | 
         | It seems like what a cheap knock off manufacturer would do..
         | imagine if McLaren did this, what, just scuffing up the door
         | handle with an old key. Outlandish and backwards, haha.
         | 
         | Or perhaps our repulsion reveals how unrefined and plebeish our
         | opinions are on this topic, which is still kind of hilarious
         | but also unfortunate, because it means a group of folks has
         | effectively settled on preferring their McLaren with the
         | intentional scratches.
        
           | cannam wrote:
           | > imagine if McLaren did this
           | 
           | In some sense car manufacturers do do this - their designs
           | are famous for being full of functionally empty retro cues
           | that customers nonetheless go for.
        
           | julian_t wrote:
           | Synthetic aging... there's quite a lot of this going on in
           | the guitar world. On the purely cosmetic level, you can find
           | a lot of 'relic' electric guitars, made to look like they've
           | been on the road since the 60s. Some acoustic makers are
           | experimenting with torrefaction and other techniques to age
           | the top wood, and opinions are divided on whether this makes
           | any difference.
           | 
           | But I'm just a pleb here... if an instrument feels good to
           | play and sounds good, then that'll do!
        
             | guappa wrote:
             | It makes a difference in price for sure :)
        
             | jdietrich wrote:
             | Cosmetic ageing processes are broadly regarded as
             | distasteful amongst collectors and connoisseurs, but
             | there's clearly a market for it.
             | 
             | Torrefaction (or rather an optimised heat treatment
             | process) can undoubtedly produce clear acoustic benefits.
             | Suitable thermal treatment can significantly increase the
             | stiffness and reduce the damping coefficient of wood,
             | resulting in a more acoustically efficient material.
        
           | afc wrote:
           | Not McLaren, but here's an example of a car manufacturer
           | synthetically aging their new cars:
           | https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a29838406/2021-ford-
           | mu...
           | 
           | "Oops, the modern engines aren't as loud, let's use the
           | speakers to fake it!" I think it's equivalent.
           | 
           | Funnily, I'm somehow more bothered by the violin pasta
           | scratches than by the digitally generated engine/exhaust
           | noise. I'm not sure why.
        
         | vintermann wrote:
         | I know at least one good violin maker who agrees.
         | 
         | It's common to do various things to make instruments look older
         | than they are, but it's controversial.
        
         | johnloeber wrote:
         | I don't think there's anything wrong in making a traditional
         | label that conforms to all other labels (i.e. looks aged).
         | 
         | That's a design choice, and design choices that appeal to
         | tradition are _everywhere_ , even in software.
        
         | wouldbecouldbe wrote:
         | Yeah sounded weird to me as well, but I'm guessing in the
         | violin market it's the expected look and she will have a hard
         | time selling to consumers if she doesn't.
        
         | anorphirith wrote:
         | I came here to post the same, a self aware artisan wouldn't
         | spend extra time making it look older than it is. that makes me
         | question every other design choice as well, was it thought
         | through at all or was it just simply repeating what was
         | learned...
        
           | anshorei wrote:
           | What a violin is supposed to look like and how that affects
           | price is interesting. As a violinist with a particular
           | interest in old music I think it's sad how little diversity
           | there is in violins. There's really only a couple of models
           | that all luthiers build and those models all look similar to
           | the untrained eye. In medieval, renaissance and baroque
           | periods there was a lot more variability.
           | 
           | Aside from some experimental luthiers everyone builds the
           | same style of violin because there's an assumption that if
           | you're deviating from that form (e.g. cornerless violins such
           | as the Chanot model, or baroque style piecrust violins) you
           | must be sacrificing sound quality. And if you decorate your
           | violin, it must be that it didn't sound good enough and you
           | need to make it look good instead to sell it (strangely, as
           | you mentioned, artificially making the violin look older is
           | exempt... probably because it makes them fit in with the
           | uniformity of classical violin)
           | 
           | The best sounding violins I've had were all a bit ...
           | crooked. The simple reason is that being slightly asymmetric
           | really hurts the value of a violin, even if the sound is
           | fine. As a hobby musician I don't really care and am not
           | ashamed of having a violin that looks a little "off" when
           | close up. If you're not playing professionally this, or
           | buying from upcoming luthiers who still have to make a name
           | for themselves are good ways to find good-value buys.
        
             | kjkjadksj wrote:
             | Violin world must have never had a les paul or leo fender.
             | Guitars would be the same way if it weren't for these two.
        
         | verisimi wrote:
         | Yep, it's dishonest. But it looks good... It meets visual
         | expectations... And I'm sure it helps the product off the
         | shelf. Write ups in the NYT are quite useful too!
         | 
         | And I thought it was all about sound. She probably has a tiktok
         | account too!
        
         | grujicd wrote:
         | This kind of artificial aging is an official thing in electric
         | guitar market - typically called road worn. And it's done by
         | Fender or Gibson, not just some obscure brands. There are also
         | signature lines which are more ot less exact copies of guitars
         | played by famuous musicians. For instance you can buy Malcolm
         | Young Gretsch with empty pickup sockets, just like how Malcolm
         | modified his own guitar. So some people love to have an
         | instrument that looks like it's not new, even if it is.
        
         | darkwater wrote:
         | Well, brand new jeans trousers with holes have been a thing for
         | years as well, now.
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | As has pre-damaged furniture.
        
         | cannam wrote:
         | (Amateur cellist)
         | 
         | Instinctively I find this absurd too. I always thought it was
         | funny that, at least at the level of student instruments, the
         | more you spend, the more beaten-up your new instrument looks.
         | Basic ones have an even spray varnish (which I generally quite
         | like). My slightly better* Chinese factory instrument is
         | antiqued to the extent of having a more worn-looking patch
         | where the hand rests when playing in higher positions, as if to
         | suggest decades of performance as a soloist. It's nonsense.
         | 
         | But plainly people do like this and makers do make it. See e.g.
         | the instruments at https://www.myluthier.co/category/violins (I
         | can't afford to shop there, I just picked it because they have
         | pretty preview images) which stand as quite good evidence
         | against any suggestion that "reputable luthiers would never".
         | Yes at some point you just have to make a living, but there's
         | enough skill put into it to suggest there might be something
         | more artistically interesting going on as well. The results are
         | certainly quite personal.
         | 
         | There are practical arguments for antiquing. It's kind of handy
         | when you're playing in an ensemble: from a distance my cello
         | looks basically the same as the others around me in the
         | orchestra even though some of them are a century older and
         | genuinely quite harshly used. And you never have the pain of
         | getting the first obvious scratch or chip in a pristine
         | instrument.
         | 
         | Curiously this doesn't seem to be a very new practice either -
         | I think even 150 years ago, new instruments were being turned
         | out designed to look like much older ones.
         | 
         | * Sounds and plays better, not just cost a bit more. I didn't
         | choose it for the antiquing!
        
         | wilsonnb3 wrote:
         | > scratching something with pasta and using yellowed book pages
         | to give it an artificially aged look is dishonest
         | 
         | Unless she is telling people it is old when it is actually new,
         | it isn't dishonest. Its not different than any other cosmetic
         | choice.
         | 
         | My bass guitar isn't actually made out of red wood, it is just
         | covered in red paint because I like the way red stuff looks.
        
       | tkgally wrote:
       | Do any string instrument players here have opinions about the
       | differences between wooden and carbon fiber violins, violas,
       | cellos, etc.? I've watched some YouTube videos comparing them,
       | and I can't hear the difference. I imagine the sound and response
       | might seem very different, though, to the performer.
        
         | jdietrich wrote:
         | They're OK enough as a travel instrument, but they don't sound
         | particularly great because no manufacturer has taken composite
         | technologies seriously. They're using archaic manufacturing
         | methods (wet layup and vacuum bag) that produces a composite
         | with too much resin - more plastic than carbon. They cannot
         | properly control the acoustic properties of the material,
         | because they can't control the material period.
         | 
         | If you see the a high-gloss finish and a characteristic woven
         | pattern, you're looking at a showpiece rather than a serious
         | instrument. That's not what a high-performance composite looks
         | like - you should expect to see the satin finish and linear
         | "grain" of unidirectional pre-preg. I'm yet to see that on any
         | musical instrument.
        
           | 83 wrote:
           | What does satin/gloss finish have to do with anything? That's
           | a choice made at the finishing stage as to what clear coat to
           | put on it for uv protection and scratch resistance. And while
           | uni might be appropriate for parts of the violin, you still
           | need to orient plys in multiple axis for flexural strength,
           | so you might as well do some of that on the outer cosmetic
           | layer to make the product more appealing to consumers.
        
             | jdietrich wrote:
             | Viscoelastic polymers are poison for stringed instruments,
             | because they have very high damping coefficients. They turn
             | the precious vibrational energy from the strings into
             | useless heat. Only cheap mass-produced instruments are
             | finished in polyurethane; quality instruments of
             | traditional wood construction use a shellac-based finish
             | (sometimes nitrocellulose lacquer on guitars), which have
             | lower damping and can be applied more thinly in practice.
             | In the context of high-quality instruments, the difference
             | is not subtle.
             | 
             | Wood instruments need a finish to protect them against
             | moisture, but that isn't an issue for CFRP. Any finish -
             | especially the kind of thick finish you need to get a high
             | gloss over woven reinforcement - makes the instrument worse
             | for no benefit other than cosmetics. If you would choose a
             | shiny instrument over one that sounds better, you're buying
             | a showpiece rather than a serious musical instrument.
             | 
             | Epoxy is a necessary evil in CFRP, but we want the absolute
             | highest possible fiber volume ratio. Unidirectional or
             | spread-tow reinforcement will always allow for a higher
             | fiber ratio than woven material.
        
       | kashunstva wrote:
       | I was surprised to find no mention whatsoever about the tonal
       | qualities of her instruments. The antiquing process may appeal to
       | her target buyer; but most serious contemporary luthiers don't
       | engage in the practice. The instruments she's making are not
       | cheap; but they are by no means expensive in the world of bowed
       | instruments. But an article about violin-making that doesn't once
       | touch on the tonal outcome is strange indeed.
        
         | analog31 wrote:
         | Indeed, I'm a double bassist, and belong to a family of string
         | players. I don't want an antiqued instrument. I'll age it
         | myself. Most of the deliberately antiqued instruments I've
         | handled were student models, and I wonder if it makes it easier
         | to hide minor defects in workmanship. In those cases, we didn't
         | outright reject an instrument for being antiqued, since there
         | are only so many things you can be particular about before the
         | supply of acceptable instruments dries up. We were much more
         | concerned with sound. When my kids moved up to professional
         | grade instruments, like you say, no more antiquing.
        
       | grujicd wrote:
       | We can argue whether artificial aging an instrument is a bad
       | thing or not.
       | 
       | But I hope we can all agree that such kind of passion and drive
       | in a young person is a very nice thing to see. Especially now
       | when many kids are only interested in quick tik tok style of
       | entertainment and rarely show an urge to do something hard on
       | their own. Or I'm just looking with middle aged eyes and it was
       | always a rare thing for a kid to be really passionate about
       | something.
        
         | stavros wrote:
         | Yeah, it always was. The "kids these days, with their" part of
         | the complaint has always been the same, it's only the next
         | words that have changed through the ages.
         | 
         | Remembering my childhood peer group, I definitely don't
         | remember many kids exhibiting this kind of passion for
         | anything.
        
         | gwervc wrote:
         | > Or I'm just looking with middle aged eyes and it was always a
         | rare thing for a kid to be really passionate about something.
         | 
         | I'd say that most of the time passion is killed in the egg by
         | parents without them noticing by the lack of support (buying a
         | book, materials), interest or attention ("I don't have time to
         | look at what you made") or just plain shunning. Outside big
         | cities, pre-internet time, lack of available knowledge or place
         | to get it can also be a big problem.
         | 
         | School also play a role, even if just by robbing kids of most
         | of their free time. The corporate-like schedule which is
         | incompatible with reading a book from cover to cover in one go
         | is why I didn't read much fiction at the time.
        
           | bluefirebrand wrote:
           | > The corporate-like schedule which is incompatible with
           | reading a book from cover to cover in one go is why I didn't
           | read much fiction at the time
           | 
           | I read books like crazy when I was younger, I loved to read
           | 
           | School did everything it possibly could to make sure I
           | stopped enjoying it though, and sure enough by the time my
           | Grade 12 literature class was done with me it had finally
           | bludgeoned out the last enjoyment of reading I had
           | 
           | It took me a long time to realize that a lot of book studies,
           | film studies, really any media studies, is just snobbery and
           | not worth a damn. It's better to just enjoy what you enjoy
        
         | wodenokoto wrote:
         | You sound just like 90's parents. "Why do kids today have such
         | short attention span?"
        
           | bondarchuk wrote:
           | In the 90s kids had short attention spans, nowadays even
           | shorter. I don't see the problem with stating these things.
        
       | laborcontract wrote:
       | I have a short attention span, so I find the subject's endeavor
       | both admirable and wholly unrelatable. I can relate to two
       | things.
       | 
       | My parents weren't particularly wealthy. I remember as a kid when
       | getting new shoes, I'd sleep with them next to me on the pillow.
       | I feel fortunate to live in slightly greater abundance.
       | 
       | Second thing is about goal realization. About 12 years ago a
       | photo of the Japanese coastline popped up in Reddit. I found it
       | so striking that I made it a goal to visit, and I also set it as
       | the wallpaper for my work computer. I've set goals for myself in
       | the past, some of them a lot harder than this. However, the
       | feeling of logging into the computer of a soul-deadening job,
       | seeing the wallpaper every day, and then, after several years,
       | _finally_ visiting the place is unreal. It 's the closest I've
       | had to an out of body experience.
        
         | kome wrote:
         | Which photo was it?
        
           | laborcontract wrote:
           | Tsunoshima bridge. This is the image:
           | https://imgur.com/a/tsj9kk6
           | 
           | I'm not sure why it struck me so much, but I always suspected
           | a large part had to do with playing so many japanese video
           | games growing up that it felt like a place already well worn
           | in my imagination. I think it particularly triggered a memory
           | of when my father used to take me to CompUSA as a kid, and
           | I'd be there taking turns playing the Dreamcast demo of Sonic
           | the Hedgehog (timestamped link to the level:
           | https://youtu.be/XwtNXo1aQgs?t=432).
           | 
           | Driving on the coast and bridge with my now wife..
           | unforgettable.
           | 
           | [EDIT] found the post: https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments
           | /qcy5m/where_is_this_o... I'm very pleased that my 12 years
           | ago time estimation was right on the money!
        
             | Shinchy wrote:
             | That's a great picture, it reminds me a lot of Final
             | Fantasy XV.
        
             | eleveriven wrote:
             | Looks like the way to heaven
        
             | Vt71fcAqt7 wrote:
             | >I'm not sure why it struck me so much
             | 
             | Perhaps a case of Thing, Japan.[0]
             | 
             | [0] https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thing-japan
        
               | adhi01 wrote:
               | That certainly often seems to be the case with me
        
               | IncreasePosts wrote:
               | It's a lovely picture regardless of if you know where it
               | is or not. Lush, green vegetation. Clear, tropical
               | looking waters over white sand.
        
             | nashashmi wrote:
             | Makes for a good vertical screen background.
        
         | RaVeN_ShP wrote:
         | I would love to see that picture :)
        
           | laborcontract wrote:
           | Posted it to a sibling!
        
             | RaVeN_ShP wrote:
             | Great Picture! Thanks for sharing!
        
         | hzay wrote:
         | I so relate to that out of body experience. My story is
         | different though -- 10 years ago, I was driving along the SF-LA
         | scenic route (I forget its name). I'd rarely driven in US at
         | that time and was brand new to the country. Suddenly I felt
         | like I knew the route. I'd seen these underpasses before,
         | surely? It was so surreal. I could even predict some road
         | feature that was going to show up next.
         | 
         | Turns out the game Roadrash that I played as a kid had that
         | route :)
        
           | cdelsolar wrote:
           | PCH?
        
           | bluejekyll wrote:
           | Sounds like Route 1, which goes by a few different names. You
           | may be lucky. They are continuing to have a difficult time
           | keeping it open as various sections keep collapsing into the
           | sea, at some point I imagine they'll close sections of it
           | permanently.
           | 
           | https://apnews.com/article/big-sur-california-highway-
           | collap...
        
         | nashashmi wrote:
         | Write a book about surviving a soul-deadening job. We people on
         | HN live on dream farms where roses are red and violets are
         | blue, and the next wealth point is just an IPO in queue.
        
         | m3kw9 wrote:
         | Which coastline is that?
        
         | ericye16 wrote:
         | The first time I visited Yosemite National Park after years of
         | seeing it as the default macos wallpaper had a similar
         | experience for me.
        
         | MailleQuiMaille wrote:
         | Manifestation always works whether you know it or not :)
        
       | eleveriven wrote:
       | It's so satisfying to watch. Creating a musical instrument is
       | akin to creating a work of art.
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | >> Also present: dentist's tools to scratch the instrument for a
       | more antique look.
       | 
       | >> at the suggestion of a mentor, she created an artist's name,
       | Anna Arietti, to better fit in with Italian culture.
       | 
       | >> To make her label, An _stamps_ her ink signature onto a small
       | piece of paper -- a browned page from a secondhand book, giving
       | the impression of age.
       | 
       | I'm sure there is a lot of great craftsmanship in one of these,
       | but some aspects are not entirely authentic.
        
       | pkteison wrote:
       | Related, this is one of my favorite videos ever:
       | 
       | Building a classical guitar from scratch (with a pro luthier):
       | https://youtu.be/qmDAIlEGO_Q?si=uLyMOGBMXEGMkIFt
       | 
       | Everything about the process is fascinating.
        
       | strikelaserclaw wrote:
       | pretty interesting how she found such an esoteric craft as her
       | passion at such a young age. I love reading stories about people
       | who are obsessed with their craft.
        
       | 48864w6ui wrote:
       | Passion is wonderful; I'd just like to point out a 2nd or 3rd
       | order effect: often a startup starts up and everybody is
       | passionate, but with growth some new hires are less passionate
       | than others. The situation to avoid is having an ipo where very
       | passionate people discover more mercenary people had much higher
       | option allocations.
        
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