[HN Gopher] The Defenestrations of Prague (1419-1997)
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The Defenestrations of Prague (1419-1997)
Author : benbreen
Score : 54 points
Date : 2024-04-03 15:51 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (publicdomainreview.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (publicdomainreview.org)
| Redster wrote:
| Went to Prague last year and saw the very windows that at least
| one defenstration used. It was so high up and the window sills
| and leaves were combined about 5ft wide. So it's not like they
| just knocked someone through glass. They had to really push them
| off the ledge. Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the
| wars in Europe.
|
| If they really thought the guys were so evil, they should have
| tried them, not defenestrated them. They knew better.
| bandrami wrote:
| If it was the 1618 one (that's the one you can see from the
| courtyard), they wrestled him out the window and then beat his
| hands with their scabbards as he hung on to the sill for dear
| life. Fortunately he landed in a pile of horse manure and
| suffered only minor injuries.
| Redster wrote:
| Yikes. That's the one I was thinking of. Yeah and it's not
| like the guys inside would've seen the pile of manure. It was
| not "ye joke".
| lolinder wrote:
| FWIW, the horse manure story was probably invented as a
| reaction to the Catholic explanation that they were saved by
| divine providence. The whole event is so steeped in religious
| propaganda from both sides that I don't think we can
| conclusively say what happened except that both did in fact
| survive.
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| I'm sure we can all come up with twenty-first century examples
| of people who knew better revealing preferences for --instead
| of Themis-- Nemesis.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| > Really sad how some hotheads triggered some of the wars in
| Europe.
|
| Their grievances were justified, religious freedoms were being
| curtailed.
| Redster wrote:
| Grievances, yes. Actions, no.
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Strong disagree.
| Redster wrote:
| I see in your bio that you live in or are from Prague.
| Since you and I see it differently, I would sincerely
| like to read more up on this event and the history
| leading up to the 30 years war. If you have anything that
| you usually recommend, I would gladly take that
| recommendation.
| tmoravec wrote:
| For the terrors that were going on? Many other nations did
| way worse things for way less.
| Redster wrote:
| Oh sure. The way I see it, I just don't buy into "other
| people murdering for lesser reasons makes my murder ok."
| I think they had systems of due process, knew due process
| was important, and decided to yeet people anyway. But
| yes, I realize people are a product of their times, etc.
| etc. And I don't think this is a controversial position
| within Czechia, from what I encountered?
| adamnemecek wrote:
| Due process? Who do you think the people were?
| marcosdumay wrote:
| When somebody in power decides you deserve to die, anything
| you do against them is justified.
| lolinder wrote:
| My understanding of the 1618 defenestration is that war was
| essentially inevitable by that point.
|
| The Holy Roman Empire had always been fragile--more of a loose
| alliance of princedoms than a proper kingdom or empire--and yet
| less than one year into his reign Ferdinand II started rolling
| back the strong religious protections that a large number of
| his vassals had begun to take for granted. There was no way
| that Ferdinand's approach to ruling the quarrelsome and
| religiously diverse German states _wouldn 't_ have led to war,
| even if these specific hotheads had kept their cool in that
| specific building on that specific day.
| Redster wrote:
| Yes, I think that your take is correct.
| sakjur wrote:
| They did try them. That was why they threw them out the window.
|
| I'm not sure a more level headed trial of the catholics in
| Prague would've prevented the war for long. That particular
| power struggle could've easily boiled over for any reason.
| dekhn wrote:
| For some reason "defenestration" sounds like disemboweling to me,
| but every time I mention this to german speakers they also point
| out that "fenster" means "window"
| gmueckl wrote:
| I think the common root here is the Latin word "fenestra".
| There is also the French word "fenetre".
| wk_end wrote:
| There's something intrinsically funny about that word. I think
| part of it is that it sounds like of like "masturbation", and
| part of it is that it's so unusually specific - _why_ do we
| need a word for throwing someone out a window?
| dekhn wrote:
| Exactly!
| tmoravec wrote:
| > why do we need a word for throwing someone out a window?
|
| Well, "defenestration" is a sort of inflexion of a common
| word (in Latin or German, which was a common language in
| Prague in 1618).
|
| Wikipedia has quite a few examples, so having a specific word
| might be useful in the end:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration
| 2devnull wrote:
| I think the answer about why it's so specific is if you just
| say you threw someone out of a window people might assume it
| was only one story high and not lethal. Defenestration tells
| you that it was a high window, and often implies the ejection
| of the owner or a legitimate occupant. Similar to shock vs
| electrocution.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| When I registered on Reddit, I chose a username
| DefenestrationPraha, because I thought at that time that no one
| in the Anglosphere would be aware of those obscure pastimes of
| our ancestors.
|
| Little did I know that defenestrations of Prague are one of the
| few things Czech that the Internet really cares about.
| Redster wrote:
| That's very funny. It's like the time that I was in a pub in
| Cambridge and the gentleman* next to me said, "Y'know, the US
| and the UK, they go way back. The US used to be a colony of the
| UK actually." and I laughed, like, "Yes, and we built our
| entire national identity off of ending our relationship." He
| was dumbfounded. He was surprised that I even knew details
| about it. Which makes me laugh just typing this because of how
| thoroughly ingrained that information is to many Americans.
|
| *Who, to be fair, had actually been educated at the "other
| place". (I joke as someone who did not go to college.)
| Nashooo wrote:
| However, not many seem to remember New York being a Dutch
| colony. It's where we get the names Harlem and Brooklyn from
| among others.
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| Yankee also
| lupire wrote:
| It's the most famous piece of European history for US students.
|
| Keep that in mind when working on brand promotion for your
| startup. Eccentric behavior with a mysterious name gets
| attention.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| There's something very, very energising to me about a mob of
| people physically dealing with corrupt rulers. A sort of pure
| expression of democracy.
| metabagel wrote:
| In Russia, the corrupt ruler defenestrates you.
| lupire wrote:
| Seems more like anarchy.
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| At least ochlocracy
| jajko wrote:
| Depends on who explains the crowd who is good and who is evil.
| Mob on its own ain't the smartest bunch in the room
| mongol wrote:
| So what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague are
| the ones I have heard about. I remember some movie scenes also,
| Axel Foley being defenestrated comes to mind. But was the word
| invented to describe the Prague events ?
| pndy wrote:
| > So what other defenestrations are there? The ones in Prague
| are the ones I have heard about.
|
| All the "window accidents" in Russia involving people who
| angered Dobby of Kremlin could be counted in, I believe.
|
| Polish Wikipedia mentions a defenestration case [1] during
| urban revolt in Wroclaw (back then Vratislav as it was under
| Czech crown rule) that took place between 18-22 July of 1418,
| so a year before the Prague's
|
| [1] -
| https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestracja_wroc%C5%82awska
| 48864w6ui wrote:
| I doubt it: there's a castle less than 10 km from me which had
| a former owner defenestrated during medieval times (when who
| was left was more important, in property disputes, than who was
| right)
| rhelz wrote:
| Let's not forget the enfenistration of Bag End, when Gandalf
| discovered Sam spying on him and Frodo, and then reached out the
| window and pulled him in.
| ggm wrote:
| If you visit Prazsky Hrad (Prague Castle) the scene of the third
| defenestration, the window is remarkably small. It's not a giant
| room, the glazed tile heater is dominant. Only one or two of the
| paintings seem to capture the spirit of the place.
| jonatron wrote:
| There is the BFRC, the British Fenestration Rating Council. So if
| fenestration is to do with installing windows, you'd think
| defenestration is to do with removing windows, but it isn't.
| brookst wrote:
| See I learned about defenestration first, so I just assumed
| BFRC had to do with throwing people into rooms through the
| window.
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