[HN Gopher] The Set-Up-to-Fail Syndrome (1998)
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The Set-Up-to-Fail Syndrome (1998)
Author : maximilianburke
Score : 77 points
Date : 2024-03-30 22:21 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (hbr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (hbr.org)
| yamrzou wrote:
| https://archive.is/FThP1
| Loughla wrote:
| I am always afraid that I'm doing this with my subordinates.
| Probably to a fault.
|
| So I treat everything as a learning experience. Recap anything
| and everything that went right or wrong and talk it out. What did
| we do well, what could have been done better. All of that.
|
| The problem only comes when you run into someone who is a
| constant victim. Any negative feedback immediately becomes
| someone else's fault. Any perceived injustice is immediately a
| huge deal.
|
| I do not know how to work with that type of person. If they do
| not see their faults, either professional or personal, it's hard
| for me to help. Any suggestions?
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| I believe Sun Tzu demonstrated it with 180 concubines.
|
| He first explains the process. Takes the blame on himself if
| the instructions were not clear. When the failure continues, he
| warns. And if it continues again, he punishes.
|
| https://titusng.com/2013/03/04/the-test-of-sun-tzus-art-of-w...
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| "Behead middle management"
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| I was always suspicious of all the 4-factor personality tests I
| was exposed to in the corporate world because it seemed to me
| they were glossy but not very helpful.
|
| Then I found out about OCEAN and realized the 4 factor tests
| were always avoiding the only one that mattered: Neuroticism.
|
| (Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness,
| Neuroticism)
|
| https://www.thelifedoctor.org/the-narcissist-s-prayer
|
| While it is unlikely that the uncoachable are full blown
| narcissists, those employees probably need a lot of counseling
| to overcome whatever life experiences that taught them
| corrective feedback is a personal attack.
| refulgentis wrote:
| The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me.
|
| I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there was
| a big jump in people who loved talking about their narcissist
| ex the past 2-3 years. (the cousins of body language doctors
| via true crime YouTube)
| graemep wrote:
| > The jump from Neuroticism to Narcissist confused me.
|
| Me too
|
| > I'm a bit wary of anything touching on narcissism, there
| was a big jump in people who loved talking about their
| narcissist ex the past 2-3 years.
|
| The term narcissist maybe overused, but a lot of us also
| learned to recognise it in recent years. It is a fairly
| common behaviour, and people can have narcissistic traits
| without having clinical NPD. Just because some people claim
| their ex was narcissistic without adequate justification,
| that does not mean there are not also many who are right
| when they say it.
|
| I think being forced into being confined with people during
| lockdowns also made people realise what they were putting
| up with. Because it is so different from how reasonable
| people behave, and it is associated with abusive behaviour,
| it can be hard to figure out what is going on.
|
| A bigger problem IMO is the overuse of "gaslighting" which
| dilutes its meaning and makes it harder to clearly describe
| the actual behaviour.
| ambicapter wrote:
| > a lot of us also learned to recognise it in recent
| years
|
| [Citation Needed]
|
| What triggered this large-scale awakening?
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Weird that you'd say neuroticism is the "only one that
| mattered". I'm more inclined to believe that for
| conscientiousness. I gather it's strongly correlated with
| life outcomes.
| riehwvfbk wrote:
| Many neurotic people know they (we) are neurotic and are
| working on it (getting counseling, meditating, etc). However,
| there is a genetic component to it, and despite their best
| efforts to manage the traits they will always more neurotic
| than the average bear.
|
| But what's truly ironic is that some of this neuroticism is
| justified: we are in fact perceived negatively and
| organizations are in fact trying not to hire or get rid of
| us. And so our employment is only as good as our ability to
| mask. Which, as you might imagine, does not make it easier to
| not be neurotic.
| caseyy wrote:
| It seems to me like neuroticism isn't fixed in people.
| Perhaps there are genetic predispositions, but it seems to
| me like it can be learned at certain stages in life, and
| later unlearned as a set of behaviors.
| riehwvfbk wrote:
| Yes, therapy helps tremendously. Just as with everything,
| there is a base system and then a set of overrides
| programmed in the brain, which is why we can override a
| fight-or-flight response and don't scurry away from any
| shadow like an insect does.
|
| However, there is research to suggest that neurotic
| people have more active amygdala than average. So yes, we
| can override our panic, and yes, we can learn to do it
| better, but there is a gotcha: all these overrides tend
| to fail at the most inopportune moment. And that is when
| already overwhelmed by stress.
| arbitrage wrote:
| Do you talk with them, or talk at them? Are you the only one
| giving feedback? What feedback do you get from the employee
| you've been failing to connect with?
| thereisnospork wrote:
| An opinion: I would say that they are what they are, and that
| people need to want to be helped. To me that would be someone
| to delegate work to that is clearly within their competencies
| but which is not 'growth work' that would requisite [negative]
| feedback. The question then becomes whether or not they remain
| an asset under those limitations.
|
| If they are not an asset to the team/company, then I would be
| inclined to proceed down the 'improve or else' path, starting
| of course with informal but frank conversations / formal
| reviews about the specific shortcomings, with specific examples
| and specific ways similar situations should be handled in the
| future[0].
|
| Otherwise it gets muddier, because there is conflicting
| interest between a 'happy' status quo where his/her growth is
| going to be kneecapped vs. potentially demoralizing them trying
| to force them to grow. Imo all you can really do there is be
| upfront at 1-on-1's and formal reviews.
|
| A final point is that this behavior is not likely lost on the
| rest of the team: regardless of how the 'offender' is handled
| it is important to not let things fester. I've been part of
| more than one group where morale was wrecked because management
| was too concerned with being 'nice' to move on from problematic
| persons.
|
| [0]Specifics are key here, not just for them but for you: if
| you can't distill down the desired corrections into actionables
| your subordinates aren't going to be able to either.
| caseyy wrote:
| Could be risky to put a person known for victimizing
| themselves on the spot. That can even blow up in ways not
| limited to the company.
|
| I do agree with the sentiment of addressing things head-on,
| but these employees can be very delicate. This is the only
| type of employee I handle with kid gloves.
| caseyy wrote:
| I've learned to deal with this kind of employee. The root cause
| is often insecurity so that's what needs to be dealt with.
| Everything else may be a red herring.
|
| 1. Active listen to everything they say, even if it's their
| unique perception of things. Do not challenge them, repeat what
| they said sometimes to make them feel smart, laugh at all the
| jokes, make them feel heard. You can acknowledge what they say
| and still not agree with them. Say "that must feel hard", "that
| sounds disappointing", "I can see you're putting in a lot of
| effort" -- acknowledge the feelings and generally true things
| (most people put effort into their work), not the minute facts
| if you think they could be wrong.
|
| 2. Give them a lot of praise and thanks, but be genuine. Don't
| make up praise, just turn up the positive feedback and turn
| down the negative. Basically, give this person 10% of the most
| important negative feedback only and 90% of the most important
| positive feedback.
|
| 3. Give them autonomy and trust. Take them off the critical
| path so they don't have any real deadlines if you are worried
| about their performance, there is always backlog. Give them a
| simple project and trust them completely with the execution.
| Have 1:1s sometimes to give very very gentle guidance - "what
| do you think about X?" "What are some alternatives to Y?" "I
| read this article about Z, why don't you have a look?"
|
| 4. Be friendly to them. Communicate a lot and informally, don't
| be formal or involve many people in the communication. Focus on
| the frequency of the communication. There are some other tips
| in a book about building professional friendships called The
| Like Switch.
|
| 5. Increase bus factor, these people sometimes still leave
| unexpectedly. Someone might say something about them publicly
| or privately, or there will be some perceived slight against
| them and they will feel victimized.
|
| 6. Over time, you can gradually bring such a person back to the
| critical path and show them "the way" of being secure in the
| workplace by example.
|
| 7. Don't talk negatively about this person behind their back,
| even if you usually share your work frustrations with work
| friends and even the small stuff ("X never washes his mug in
| the sink, I'm constantly washing up after him" -- not even
| benign remarks like that). If it comes out, that will undo all
| of your hard work building up this employee. If it doesn't, but
| other people learn about this person's traits, then they might
| say something and that could turn into a significant problem,
| even leading to this person leaving because of a perceived
| slight.
|
| Also, protect yourself. Speak to your own manager (but only
| them) about this person candidly when you are asked. Say that
| they tend to view themselves as a victim and they're not very
| responsive to feedback, but that you are taking steps A, B, C
| and D, and that hopefully you're seeing progress, like that
| they are less timid with you, they have fewer conflicts in the
| team, etc. Such a person may go to your manager and stir things
| up if they feel like they're victimized by you. While it may be
| true that this person is victimized by basically everyone from
| time to time, some headaches can still come to you. So make
| sure your manager can back you up. The truth and a little bit
| of time is the best antidote to this type of person if they
| mean harm to you.
|
| Anyways, they are not bad people, they just slipped into the
| victim mentality or maybe were raised that way. You can help
| them rebuild their self-esteem and stop seeing themselves as a
| victim if you must or want to. It's probably the most
| challenging employee to manage though, so expect turbulence.
| But sometimes we don't choose who we manage, and also, this
| person probably has many other great qualities which may make
| them very successful if they can overcome the victimhood.
|
| This works in my own practice, but it's definitely a delicate
| situation.
| brilee wrote:
| Sounds like a lot of emotional labor with major opportunity
| costs...
|
| https://charity.wtf/2023/06/19/helicopter-management/
| ambicapter wrote:
| You don't have to take on the task all the time but it's
| very nice that someone took the time to lay out all their
| knowledge in a comment, seems like very good, experienced
| advice.
| GoToRO wrote:
| Why do you care so much about their faults? How do you know
| those are really faults, maybe it's just your own perception?
| lazide wrote:
| As a manager, your responsibility is to make something work
| by managing the people assigned to it.
|
| If the situation isn't working, either the thing itself needs
| to change (rarely possible in many situations), or the person
| needs to change, or there needs to be a different person
| there.
|
| It is a fault at that point, even if it's just a personal
| difference and entirely reasonable for them to be doing
| whatever it is they are doing. Regardless, it still isn't
| working.
|
| And at the end of the day, the managers perceptions (and
| their superiors perceptions) are what matters. It's literally
| why they are there, and their job.
|
| Is it fair? Often, no it is not.
|
| Is it life? Yes.
| GoToRO wrote:
| If only their perception matters, then they should put it
| in the job ad. But no, they prefer to lie: we are a team,
| we want the best, we are a meritocracy. That's the problem.
| They should look in the mirror more often because no IC can
| bankrupt a company, but a couple managers will.
| lazide wrote:
| What does any of that have to do with what I said?
|
| Only one person on the team has the ability to fire
| anyone. Everyone can quit.
|
| So, when push comes to shove who's perception of if
| things are working matters?
|
| If the other party quit, there is no shove or pushing.
|
| All of that is the same at any and every company (barring
| union rules or other contracts), no need to put it in the
| ad.
|
| And yes, ultimately every company gets what the
| consequences of its actions results in - and managers are
| agents of the company.
|
| The hardest part is often those consequences are a lot
| more pleasant for them then it is for labor/employees.
| That is also life.
| magpi3 wrote:
| The same phenomenon exists in teaching. When I student is
| failing, a teacher constantly has to challenge themselves whether
| or not the failure lies with their approach. I think students are
| set up to fail all the time.
|
| But with 60+ students, this self-examination can be exhausting.
|
| And if you begin to micro-manage/criticize students, you risk
| them making them feel stupid. I have found that you have to do
| the opposite: you have to give them more freedom, more personal
| responsibility, and you have to challenge them to succeed. They
| have to own it. They have to have the agency to figure things out
| and ask questions. It's the only solution. You can't coddle
| someone to success.
|
| Of course if this fails, I look like a shitty teacher. Teaching
| is hard. Managing is hard too, I am sure.
|
| I teach middle-school students to be clear. At certain ages, yes
| students need a lot of structure and they can't figure things out
| themselves.
| 4wsn wrote:
| > You can't coddle someone to success.
|
| The most succinct way I've heard this massive cultural problem
| explained.
| geocrasher wrote:
| As a young person I had a job at a computer repair shop. I might
| have been 19 years old. They did a 1 day working interview. I
| impressed them heavily with 10 repairs in the day, all of them
| solid and billable. They hired me. I was alarmed when they also
| hired a guy that blew up a customer's motherboard by plugging in
| the PSU cables incorrectly (This was the in the mid 90's).
|
| It went downhill from there. I became the target of a lot of
| bullying and harassment from the alpha jackass, leader of the
| coked up jackasses that worked there, and eventually he gave me a
| degrading nickname that implied that everything I touched broke.
|
| I was constantly stressed out, felt like the worst employee in
| the world (at that age I didn't know I was the victim at this
| point) and this self-fulfilling prophecy just made things worse.
| Suddenly I'd become bad at my job. I couldn't fix 5 computers a
| day, and they often came back with problems.
|
| Was this issue _me_? No. the issue was a highly toxic workplace
| where I was berated for my successes ( "Oh look, he fixed one,
| must be a F****n miracle") and expected to fail.
|
| I'd have quit, but I needed the work. The manager, a lowlife
| cokehead and strip club aficionado, mercy fired me 2 months in.
| He saw the problem but didn't care to fix it. Of course, I was
| better off. They were a crooked shop to begin with and my
| reputation was at risk for having worked there even 2 months.
|
| Many years later I am a well respected manager who _never_ treats
| employees like this. I am well aware that if my employee is
| failing _me_ , then in some way I am failing _them_. I work on
| the relationship with the employee as much as I work on the
| issue. I encourage their successes, help them work through any
| issues, and show confidence in them until they start showing
| confidence in themselves.
|
| I can honestly say this approach has worked wonders, and I've
| seen huge HUGE turnarounds in employees who thought they could
| never make it. Now they're rock stars.
| namaria wrote:
| Sometimes a crash course on how not to do things is a most
| effective form of education...
| LoganDark wrote:
| Definitely not in this case.
| gumby wrote:
| > I am well aware that if my employee is failing _me_ , then in
| some way I am failing _them_.
|
| I have had to fire people over the years, of course, but
| whenever it gets that far I feel terrible that it got to that
| point, that how this person was managed is a failure for the
| company _and_ the departing employee. I hope it's obvious that
| none of this is expressed to the person being fired -- they are
| miserable enough about their situation and don't care about the
| company any more, if they ever did.
|
| Always there is a post mortem: did we hire the wrong person --
| if so what could we have done better? As for the management --
| again, what could we have done better?
|
| BTW I'm sorry you had to deal with that horrible experience. At
| least it was only two months.
| itronitron wrote:
| I was a rockstar at each of my previous employers except the
| last one, and consider myself lucky to have had the
| opportunity to quit before being fired. So naturally, during
| my exit interview I had only positive things to say about the
| experience but it was by far the most restrictive and toxic
| workplace I've worked at. How was it toxic? A general lack of
| respect, or interest, for people's time and ability/talent
| which was made clear through various policies and the
| behavior of a few assholes.
|
| You won't find the answers you need by doing a post-mortem.
| gumby wrote:
| > You won't find the answers you need by doing a post-
| mortem.
|
| It's really the only opportunity since if you had the
| answers beforehand perhaps the person would not have been
| "let go".
|
| If your point is that post mortems aren't that great, I
| agree. It's like debugging a crash dump rather than a live
| process. But sometimes the core dump is all you have.
| jahewson wrote:
| > I couldn't fix 5 computers a day, and they often came back
| with problems.
|
| Totally possible they were sabotaging your work. Good riddance!
| winwang wrote:
| > Boss and subordinate typically settle into a routine that is
| not really satisfactory but, aside from periodic clashes, is
| otherwise bearable for them.
|
| This sounds like a game theoretic setup.
|
| I'm annoyed that, in this scenario, the boss gets all the upside
| of good results, and none of the downside of bad results. In such
| a context, every IC should aim to become a manager immediately.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| This sounds like the kind of thing that happens when you make a
| bad hire and then try to force it to work.
|
| Words to live by: Hire fast, fire fast. Yep, as the article
| mentions, that has costs. What has a much higher cost is hiring
| the wrong person and hanging on to them, hoping to manage them
| into a great fit.
| Terretta wrote:
| Business writing, including within HBR, has fallen farther than
| one remembers over the past 20 years. This piece's style is
| refreshing.
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