[HN Gopher] William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun
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William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun
Author : lermontov
Score : 70 points
Date : 2024-03-23 02:05 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.historytoday.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.historytoday.com)
| stuartcw wrote:
| I live on the Miura peninsular not too far from William Adams
| fiefdom. It's possible to walk up the hill from Anjinzuka Station
| (The navigator's hill) and see his and his wife's grave.
| pipes wrote:
| I've read shogun and now i'm watching the latest TV show. Both
| are amazing. Is the wife he's buried with Japanese? And he had
| one in England too?
| lainga wrote:
| Yes, he never returned to England. The Shogunate declared
| "William Adams" dead and "Miura Anjin" born, by which legal
| fiction he could remarry.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Was there really a legitimate _legal_ issue needed to be
| accounted for at the time, across these borders?
| Additionally, ostensibly to Adams, it would have been
| something he would have to answer to his creator for moreso
| than the crown or Shogun, if he was a true believer anyway.
| illwrks wrote:
| If I was to guess, probably yes but on the Japanese side.
| Sakos wrote:
| Polygamy (as in being married to more than one person)
| isn't and wasn't legal in Japan. I don't see how it would
| in any way be feasible or acceptable to take a new wife
| in Japan of all places, where honor and family are such
| important aspects of their culture, while already
| married.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > Additionally, ostensibly to Adams, it would have been
| something he would have to answer to his creator for
| moreso than the crown or Shogun, if he was a true
| believer anyway.
|
| I mean, bear in mind that about 30 years before Adams was
| born, Henry VIII had broken with Rome so that he could
| get a divorce. Religious views on the sanctity of
| marriage in England were, ah, evolving rapidly at this
| point.
| solidsnack9000 wrote:
| If he was known or reasonably believed to the Japanese to
| be married, yes, there was a legal issue.
| seanparsons wrote:
| Conversely I live in Gillingham, where there's several
| references to him and his history.
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| For folk interested in learning more about what historians and
| similar think of the novel, a compilation of essays on the
| subject titled "Learning from SHOGUN: Japanese History and
| Western Fantasy" has been made available courtesy of the
| compilation's editor, Henry Smith.:
|
| https://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/
| ProjectArcturis wrote:
| I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book, in part
| because the junior samurai kill themselves a LOT. They're
| forced to commit seppuku for being late to their work in the
| morning. There's a scene where a samurai jumps off a cliff to
| his death just get his boss's attention (I guess yelling would
| have been rude).
|
| Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which fits
| the legend, certainly, but isn't particularly realistic.
|
| This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's more
| of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks. But I'd still
| like to know.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > This collection doesn't address those criticisms -- it's
| more of a literary analysis than a set of fact checks.
|
| many things likely can't be fact checked, e.g. what kind of
| warriors/spies ninjas really were.
| alephknoll wrote:
| > I've always wondered about the accuracy of the book
|
| It's a work of fiction. I suspect it is as accurate as a
| japanese book about america or hollywood's depiction of the
| wild west.
|
| Early on, the book describes blackthorne as being a head and
| shoulders taller than the locals. That may be true in 1900s
| england, but in 1600s ( really 1500s ) england, an englishman
| was generally closer to 5 feet than 6 feet. And as you noted
| the comical suicides and extreme behavior of the characters
| doesn't seem realistic at all.
|
| Shogun probably reflects 1600s japan as well as Fargo
| reflects 1990s Dakotas/Minnesota ( and that was based on a
| true story! ).
| steveoscaro wrote:
| I can't tell if you're in or out of the know on the "true
| story" part haha
| zer00eyz wrote:
| I grew up in Sandy Hook, part of Newtown.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Helle_Crafts
|
| This woman's murder was the inspiration for Fargo.
| the_af wrote:
| > _Also ninjas are depicted as super-powerful badasses. Which
| fits the legend, certainly, but isn 't particularly
| realistic._
|
| It's very likely ninja (or "shinobi", if you're meticulous)
| didn't exist at all. There must have been spies and
| assassins, which are already present in Chinese culture which
| was a big influence in Japanese culture, but the ninja as a
| stealthy infiltrator, wearing black clothes and special
| weaponry is a later day invention.
|
| I actually like that in the remade "Shogun" TV show, the
| "ninja" attack is replaced by a maid who turns out to be an
| assassin in the payroll of Toranaga's enemies. Not clad in
| black or with super powers, just a woman who can handle a
| sword and attacks by surprise.
| Jrjrir48 wrote:
| That does not mean the book is not accurate, book just has to
| be read certain way.
|
| If you read modern literature , there is a lot of noise and
| hyperbole. Like 20% females being raped while studying at
| college. It comes from well accepted study, was quoted in
| several journals, but obviously has to be open to some
| interpretation.
|
| My guess young samurais would prefer seppuku over chores and
| punishment. Perhaps look into Kyogen to get some perspective.
| mjlee wrote:
| James Clavell wrote Shogun which is (very, very) loosely based on
| this. A fun read in any case.
| programmarchy wrote:
| Also recently released as a series on Hulu. Pretty faithful to
| the book from what I've seen so far.
| kaesar14 wrote:
| I've felt like it's deviated quite a bit, but it's well made
| nonetheless
| cm2012 wrote:
| The new show has been made more accurate to the time
| period, they had historical experts come in. Plus the guy
| who plays Toranaga is an amateur historian of the time
| period and helped a lot.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Yeah and it shows. The original book was pretty fast and
| loose with Japanese history but the show seems to have
| translated the Warring States period customs a lot
| better.
| andrepd wrote:
| It's also an Infocom game!
| AnarchismIsCool wrote:
| Hypothetically, would he have been on Mizu's list?
| kaycebasques wrote:
| I'm also wondering if the story is inspired by Adams.
|
| For anyone not familiar with the "Mizu's list" reference, we're
| talking about the Netflix animated series _Blue Eye Samurai_.
| It 's got more graphic violence than I usually enjoy but is a
| really good story.
| n1b0m wrote:
| Samurai William by Giles Milton is a great read about William
| Adams
| flohofwoe wrote:
| He even got his own video game:
|
| https://koei.fandom.com/wiki/William_Adams#Nioh
|
| Don't expect a historically correct storyline though ;)
| balls187 wrote:
| It was a pretty fun game, but has that Team Ninja level of
| difficulty that I just don't find fun--despite finding FromSoft
| difficulty really enjoyable.
|
| I had the same issue with Wo Long.
| lc9er wrote:
| I agree with you on Team Ninja vs FromSoft. I tried Nioh 2
| after hearing praise and comparisons to FromSoft games. But I
| found the controls comparatively complex compared to
| Souls/Sekiro and it made the game really unplayable for me.
| static_void_ wrote:
| lol i should have scrolled down. i love this game :)
| bane wrote:
| There's several interesting stories like Adam's.
|
| In the early 1600s a number of Dutchmen ended up in Joseon
| Dynasty Korea, which was still recovering from a series of
| devastating invasions from Japan which ended in 1598 (which are
| also talked about in the show Shogun). Desperate for military
| advancement, these foreigners, while entering an officially
| closed kingdom, where integrated into society as military
| advisors. The geopolitical realities that are in the show very
| much affected the region, and the introduction of Christianity,
| first by the Catholics, and then by other denominations has had
| profound impacts in East Asia through today.
|
| - in 1627 the Dutchman Jan Jansz Weltevree and some of this
| crewmates ended up marooned in Korea where they were asked to
| produce artillery for the Joseon dynasty. Weltevree took a Korean
| name, got married, has some children and even passed the Korean
| civil service exam becoming a proper Korean official. [1]
|
| - in 1653 his countryman Hendrik Hamel shipwrecked in Korea with
| almost 40 other crewmates and eventually met Weltevree who helped
| translate for them. Like his compatriots, they were tasked with
| being military advisors.
|
| Hamel eventually escaped Korea and made it back to Amsterdam by
| way of Nagasaki in 1668 where he published his journals, marking
| the first Western contact with Korea that was _reported_ back to
| Europe. [2][3]
|
| - Predating Adams by just a few years, in 1579, an African
| arrived in Japan with a Jesuit mission. He became a retainer to
| Oda Nabunaga, one of the three unifiers of Japan. He had a brief
| but interesting career as a Samurai and was given the name
| Yasuke, then when Nabunaga fell went back to the Jesuits.
|
| - The Catholic missionary work in Korea started by the Jesuits in
| 1593, and like Japan became a powerful political and economic
| force. The Joseon dynasty had enough of it after a while and
| attempted a series of major purges, killing thousands of
| converted Catholics until the 19th century. The Church has
| continued to be a source of revolutionary support in South Korea
| up until the modern 21st century. But most Korean Christians are
| not-Catholic today as later missionary groups from other
| denominations were less politically threatening and seen as
| potential balances of power against the Catholic influence in
| Korean. Very notably, Pyongyang was the seat of Presbyterian
| Christianity before the civil war, and it's well understood that
| the founders of North Korea, the Kim family, were once a notable
| Presbyterian family with a few ministers in the line.
|
| 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Jansz_Weltevree
|
| 2 -
| https://archive.org/details/journaelvandeongeluckigevoyagiev...
|
| 3 - https://archive.org/details/coreawithoutwith00grif
| static_void_ wrote:
| William Adams is the protagonist of the excellent souls-like
| NiOh. That's all the history I need on the man thank you very
| much.
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