[HN Gopher] When did dogs become our best friends?
___________________________________________________________________
When did dogs become our best friends?
Author : diodorus
Score : 133 points
Date : 2024-03-22 03:54 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
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| INTPenis wrote:
| On this topic I saw this great documentary called "Man's first
| friend" from 2008.[1].
|
| Also speaking of northern Italy, as a dog owner, I am fully
| behind this[2] proposal to DNA test dogs and punish anyone
| leaving dog poop on the streets.
|
| 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=talBvZ5x8sY&t=4882s
|
| 2. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/17/italian-
| provin...
| xandrius wrote:
| In a low-trust country such as Italy, I'd say that it would be
| useful.
|
| Also it would depend on the specific commune and not a country-
| wide requirement.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Also necessary in NYC which I don't really feel is low-trust
| in general.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Also necessary in pretty much all USA metros and suburbs I
| have been to in the last 10 years.
| xandrius wrote:
| NYC and US are definitely low-trust.
|
| Interesting comparison:
| https://jacknicastro.substack.com/p/vienna-and-new-york-
| high...
| ambrose2 wrote:
| Definitely a high trust city (Vienna), but note that a
| few times a year they do check for tickets.
|
| Because the monthly pass rate is so low, most people have
| purchased the pass on their phone and that must be shown
| a couple of times a year or else you'll be charged a fine
| at the checkpoint. I'm actually surprised that the
| evasion stats are so low, since the fine isn't terribly
| large and you might come out ahead just never paying the
| fare and only paying fines.
|
| I have to say though, that system of spot checks makes
| the day to day very low friction.
| CalRobert wrote:
| The first time I visited Vienna I noted the complete lack
| of fare control and thought "wow, it's great they've made
| public transport free!" My hostel was kind enough to
| disabuse me of this notion, though.
| ethanbond wrote:
| I don't think a single parameter like that makes it
| "definitely" low-trust.
|
| In Austria, people are required to deposit money to
| borrow a grocery cart while shopping for food. Not so
| anywhere I've been in the US -- ergo Austria is low-trust
| and US is high-trust? I think not.
|
| https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/2004272-euro-
| coin...
| lupusreal wrote:
| The US has those, Aldi uses them. But isn't this because
| they don't have cart boys to bring the carts from corals
| throughout the parking lot back to the front of the
| store? It's just a different model of cart management,
| not indicative of trust or lack thereof. If somebody
| wanted to steal a cart, that quarter is a trivial price
| for it. It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little
| thing to encourage honest people to walk slightly further
| than normal.
|
| Here's a rule of thumb I use to judge if a community is
| high trust or not. If I leave my bicycle unlocked and it
| gets stolen, will others be surprised or will they call
| me a moron for trusting other people? Obviously NYC is
| low trust, I would be mocked mercilessly if my unlocked
| bike got stolen there.
| vkou wrote:
| My bar for low-trust is 'Should I expect to have to bribe
| public and private officials to get them to perform their
| duties, most of the time'?
|
| The US is relatively high trust in this space. And I
| don't know of many countries that will pass the bike
| test. Certainly, nowhere in Europe would.
|
| Maybe we could try a different test - how afraid is the
| society of itself. Count how often you see cops, how
| well-armed they are, etc...
| xandrius wrote:
| For me the test is: if possible, would an individual skip
| paying the ticket for a public transport if they know
| almost nobody will check?
|
| It's so trivial and yet it shows how much the society
| cares about its own systems functioning properly or not.
| vkou wrote:
| That's a better test. There are a lot of places with 95%+
| fare compliance where I wouldn't leave my bike unlocked
| for an instant.
|
| It only takes one asshole out of thousands to steal a
| bike, and _every_ society has at least one asshole.
| xandrius wrote:
| Any example?
|
| Also high trust != absolutely no crime ever
|
| It's the difference between getting your bike stolen
| because of a random asshole and knowing your bike will be
| stolen by someone (also arguably an asshole).
| vkou wrote:
| > Any example?
|
| Literally _any_ city with good fare compliance. If it 's
| got enough people in it to have a transit network, it's
| got enough bike thieves in it to steal your bike.
|
| > It's the difference between getting your bike stolen
| because of a random asshole and knowing your bike will be
| stolen by someone (also arguably an asshole).
|
| That's just a product of population density. If you live
| in the middle of nowhere, with 5 people total in a
| 15-mile radius, it's highly unlikely someone's going to
| steal your bike.
|
| If you leave your bike on Main Street, where thousands of
| people walk by every hour, all it takes is one in a
| thousand.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Aldi, the German grocery chain infecting our High Trust
| Society with their Low Trust Germanicism?
|
| > It's not an anti-theft measure, just a little thing to
| encourage honest people to walk slightly further than
| normal.
|
| ... because they can't be trusted to do it without the
| deposit...
| nradov wrote:
| Hardly anyone in NYC would comply with such a law. They
| would just ignore it. The city could perhaps require DNA
| testing by animal shelters and legitimate breeders within
| it's borders. But many dogs come from elsewhere, or from
| backyard breeders who don't care about laws.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Dogs in NYC are already required to wear tags with their
| rabies vaccination statuses and IDs. That _also_ isn 't
| really checked, but it absolutely _could be_ by simply
| stopping people walking their dogs and requesting to see
| their ID tag.
| samatman wrote:
| Don't shoot the messenger, but this is one of a number of
| quality-of-life improvements which is a non-starter
| because of the doctrine of disparate racial impact. The
| argument would be that poverty, undocumented status, etc,
| means it's harder for some ethnicities to comply with
| that sort of regulation, so the burden of police
| interaction would disproportionately fall on them.
| Probably not wrong in this case, getting a dog registered
| with all his shots is fairly expensive. My take is that a
| law worth having is a law worth enforcing, but unless
| that idea comes back into fashion, things like your
| suggestion won't happen.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Yet obviously there are many laws that are enforced and
| do have disparate racial impacts... So this is just an
| airing of grievances.
| samatman wrote:
| Those laws aren't dog ownership requirements in New York
| City, though. Which is the topic I was replying to. It
| wasn't a statement about all laws everywhere.
| ethanbond wrote:
| They literally are: you are required to vaccinate and
| register your dog in NYC and your dog is required to wear
| proof of this vaccination at all times in public.
| nradov wrote:
| "Your papers, please."
|
| Come on, you can't be serious. Police and code
| enforcement officers aren't going to stop random dog
| walkers on the street to demand DNA test results. Real
| Americans don't tolerate that kind of government
| overreach, and the authorities already didn't even have
| time to investigate actual crimes.
| ethanbond wrote:
| "Demand DNA test results" == "check that they have a
| specific tag on their collar"
|
| I didn't say they _are_ going to, and you didn 't say
| they _wouldn 't._ You said they couldn't (because people
| "would just ignore it") and I said they absolutely could.
| Which is true.
|
| Re "Real Americans", get a grip.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Denmark is generally considered a high trust country, but it
| happens often enough I would like to see it.
| smugglerFlynn wrote:
| Isn't solving trust issues with further mistrust leads to an
| even lower trust in the end? (genuinely interested because
| "low-trust/high-trust communities" concept is a topic I know
| nothing about.)
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| When you are eating a shit sandwich already because that's
| all there is it doesn't matter if there's dogshit or
| horseshit on it.
| xandrius wrote:
| Good point. I really don't think a country can switch side
| (high to low and viceversa) within a short timespan, maybe
| not even within a generation.
|
| So, if you want to solve the issue, you use the methods
| which work in the affected area.
|
| In high trust, as long as the thing is seeing benefitting
| most, it is often followed. In low trust, breaking a rule
| is often seen as a sign of independence and generally being
| cool, so you need to put deterrents to make it uncool to
| get caught.
|
| At least, this is coming from my own personal experience
| living in different countries. Might not be the same
| everywhere.
| gadders wrote:
| The UK has gone from high to low in a generation.
|
| People no longer (for instance) leave their children (or
| even their dogs) outside shops whilst they go inside.
| xandrius wrote:
| So you're saying that in the 70/80s people trusted each
| other much more?
|
| I'm not sure specifically about kids and dogs but I'm not
| quite sure that was the case then, given the extremely
| huge heterogeneous society that was already back then.
| What do you think?
| gadders wrote:
| DNA testing would presumably help cut down on dog theft, which
| was a big issue in the UK when puppy prices increased due to
| lockdown.
| sph wrote:
| I also enjoyed the probably not very historically accurate
| movie Alpha, about a prehistoric young man domesticating a
| wolf: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4244998/
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| The founding fathers would think that allowing the government
| to have a database on ANYTHING is a bad idea.
|
| Plus dog poop is ecologically good for the environment and
| fertilizes nature.
| ChoGGi wrote:
| Concrete and asphalt don't need fertilizer.
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| Most dogs are extremely particular about where they poop
| and don't poop on concrete and asphalt if they have any
| other choice.
| nervousvarun wrote:
| Apparently, dog poop is not an effective fertilizer and is
| considered harmful for grass?
|
| Was news to me as a dog owner who allows our dog to do her
| business in the back yard (but would never allow it on a
| public walkway/area).
|
| https://lawnlove.com/blog/is-dog-poop-bad-for-grass/
| schwartzworld wrote:
| That blows my mind. I had two dogs as a kid, and if we
| didn't pick up the poop fast it destroyed the grass
| underneath. Their corner of the yard was all dead grass.
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| My dog has pooped in my backyard for years and nothing
| but thick quality grass everywhere.
|
| probably because most kibble is vegetable based and
| vegetable based poop is good for the grass.
|
| maybe you fed your dog more meat?
|
| if your dog's poop is killing the grass you're doing
| something seriously wrong with its diet.
| schwartzworld wrote:
| > most kibble is vegetable based
|
| Most cheap kibble maybe.
|
| > if your dog's poop is killing the grass you're doing
| something seriously wrong with its diet.
|
| If yours isn't, I think _you_ might be doing something
| wrong with its diet. https://lawnlove.com/blog/is-dog-
| poop-bad-for-grass/
| cdchn wrote:
| Do your dogs urinate in your yard as well?
| imzadi wrote:
| I think any poop from a carnivore is bad for grass, and
| everything else. You can compost it and it will be usable
| after about 1.5 years.
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| dogs are omnivores.
|
| most kibble is vegetable based
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| Using an A.I. article from lawnlove.com as a
| source....okayyyy
|
| This country has really gone downhill with education
|
| My teachers would have yelled at me for having a source
| like that.
| ryanianian wrote:
| It is absolutely not good for the environment. Your dog does
| not eat a local, natural diet. There are more dogs than could
| be locally and naturally sustained.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Dog poop can blind children and is horrible for the
| environment.
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxocariasis/
|
| https://www.popsci.com/environment/dog-poop-pollution/
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| DONT EAT THE POOP.
|
| and you won't get that disease.
|
| Problem solved.
|
| And dont let your kids eat any animal poop
| consf wrote:
| "Man's First Friend" is a must-watch documentary for animal
| lovers
| lordnacho wrote:
| Woof, that's so cute.
|
| The naked ape thinks it domesticated me.
|
| I'm lying nicely in my dog bed, having been fed by monkey guy.
| This monkey fellow went to school for nearly two decades and
| spent his life learning about abstract stuff, I don't know,
| something to do with those screens we have all over the house and
| the clicky clacky thing he uses his fingers for.
|
| Meanwhile, I get fed every day and I can demand a jog when I
| like. He picks up my poop too.
|
| He's even typing this out while I'm having a nice nap.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > The naked ape thinks it domesticated me.
|
| The naked ape removed your testicles (or ovaries) to make life
| easier for them.
|
| That kind of makes questions about who has the power in the
| relationship pointless.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I got 8 kids, and monkey guy and his wife delivered them and
| found them all good homes to live in. I see pictures of them
| regularly and I might be a grandmother next year.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I'd expect that this isn't a typical story, do most dogs
| reproduce? I think if that were the case we'd quickly end
| up with too many dogs, their litters are so big.
|
| Still seems like a pretty good deal for the species as a
| whole, though. Sort of like ants or bees, most of the
| members of the species end up as non-reproducing workers
| (except the work is to go be a friend to humans). Of course
| the ratio is not as extreme!
| sph wrote:
| Your funny comment actually has some deep insight I'd like to
| see researched more.
|
| We know by now how we turned the grey wolf into the dog, but do
| we know what the relationship has done _for us_? What have
| wolves taught humans?
|
| Some hypotheses to get you started: they might've taught us the
| power of collaboration. The power of social hierarchy. The
| empathy towards other life forms. Anthropomorphism (maybe
| that's why we have furries today). I don't know, but I very
| much doubt the domestication of wolves has been a one way
| endeavour.
| Jensson wrote:
| Sub Saharan Africa didn't domesticate dogs but they still had
| tribes and pack hunting.
| the_af wrote:
| > _[...] but do we know what the relationship has done for
| us?_
|
| _" Then as now, this was a good deal for the humans too. The
| scavenging dogs weren't just a sanitation squad, they were
| also security."_ [1]
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/aQHBmY6LbiA?t=132
| JohnBooty wrote:
| On the evolutionary scale, we'd definitely have to say the
| change is more profound for the dogs. Every pet dog today is
| the result of selective breeding by humans, whereas most
| humans probably did _not_ own dogs.
|
| That said, on a personal scale:
|
| My pets have definitely changed me and made me better.
| MediumOwl wrote:
| Check out Donna Haraway's Companion Species Manifesto then,
| it's more or less exactly about this.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Here's an idle thought - have we evolved to be pet lovers?
| Pets increase happiness and lower stress, which are going to
| have all sorts of relationship and career benefits.
| sph wrote:
| Do primates in the wild keep pets? I know some captive
| gorillas had cats.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Yes - I remember Koko naming her kitten as "all ball"
| (kinda like "fur ball"?!).
|
| I'm not sure if a wild animal has ever been observed to
| have a pet, but I guess many intelligent animals value
| playfulness and companionship, and have evolved to have
| tolerance and empathy, so judging by Twitter, etc, it
| doesn't seem that rare to have inter-species friendships
| even between animals that might be considered as predator
| and potential prey.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Baboons have been observed to capture puppies from feral
| dogs and integrate them into their troop.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Interesting - I'd never head of this. There seems to be
| some debate over whether these puppies/dogs might be
| considered as pets, but perhaps it was the same for early
| humans too - domesticating cats (egyptians) and dogs for
| their utility at controlling pests and guarding/warning
| against intruders, then later warming to their furry
| friends.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Not just that, but there's a very wide, gray area in our
| other domestication stories too.
|
| You don't just rock up to a herd of wild bovines and say
| "hey, you're my cows now, let me milk you". Rather, one
| day a group of humans started following a herd around,
| killing one once in a while for meat; eventually perhaps
| they started protecting the cattle from other predators
| and guiding where the herd went, while also starting to
| find ways to continue lactation in females and get them
| to acquiesce to being milked.
|
| The cows that were compliant to the slow changes were the
| most likely to reproduce; rinse and repeat until you get
| whatever we have now.
| vkou wrote:
| It's been observed _by one television documentary_ that,
| among other things, included a dog with a collar in one
| of these shots (with no explanation for the context).
|
| There's no peer-reviewed scientific research describing
| this phenomena. Or even any attempt at gathering _any_
| data with something resembling scientific rigor.
|
| A simpler explanation is that these dogs and baboons are
| just... Living side-by-side in a garbage dump. And that
| the film-makers just didn't include any footage that
| didn't fit their narrative.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| I mean, have you ever watched a working dog in action? I have
| two border collies and we never trained them to herd or
| anything but holy crap are they enthused to use their
| intellect and body to work for you in any way they possibly
| can, and solve whatever puzzles you give them. It obviously
| gives them insane pleasure to do so.
|
| Watching a collie herding dog in action, or I presume a
| hunting dog, is quite amazing. Hard to believe humans
| wouldn't have watched and learned.
|
| Also that 14,000 year domestication date mentioned in the
| article sounds remarkably similar to the dates humans began
| the processing of "domesticating" (settling) themselves, and
| is basically the marker for the end of the last ice age, too.
| Keeping crops and herds of animals and building permanent
| villages to guard and control definitely benefits from having
| canines (and felines for pest control, too).
| consf wrote:
| hunting in groups I think was observed and learned from wolf
| hackable_sand wrote:
| Yoga positions, for one.
| ashleney wrote:
| This kind of thinking very much reminds me of those parents who
| view the children they chose to have as nefarious evil leeches.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Well first thing they do even before birth is starting
| sucking your energy out so there is that. Now that they are
| gently reaching teenager years, I call them roomies. They eat
| everything that is available in the fridge, don't want to
| help with cleaning, interact less and less with me, invite
| dubious people and listen to loud music in their room.
| doubled112 wrote:
| I'm reminded of that scene in House M.D. where he tells a
| patient she has a parasite, but she might learn to embrace
| it and dress it up in cute outfits.
| lenerdenator wrote:
| I see your dog has met my cat.
| the_af wrote:
| > _The naked ape thinks it domesticated me._
|
| You're getting downvotes for some reason, but that's more or
| less how Neil deGrasse Tyson humorously puts it in Cosmos 2
| [1]:
|
| _" [...] This wolf has just discovered what a branch of his
| ancestors figured out some 15,000 years ago. An excellent
| survival strategy: the domestication of humans."_
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQHBmY6LbiA
| SJC_Hacker wrote:
| I feed and care for my dog and he doesn't have to do jack
| crap except act friendly from time to time. Quite the scam
| he's running.
| chasd00 wrote:
| reminds me of the meme where a photo of a contemplative looking
| cat is captioned with, "what if i'm the pet and the human is
| owner!".
| proc0 wrote:
| Um, you can't go anywhere unless you are on a leash. You can't
| hunt for your own food or have your own family on your own
| terms. You are literally owned by another species that has
| molded you according to their own criteria.
|
| Imagine aliens captured humans and did the same to us.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| First, I know a lot of people are very nice to their dogs, but...
|
| I live in a large city, and based on the number of dogs locked
| away in apartments all day barking and bored to death with almost
| no stimulation, I figure dogs are certainly not the best friends
| of a lot of people. Instead, they are more like prisoners that
| illustrate the cruelness of humanity in general: these people use
| them as entertainment and care fairly little for their overall
| welfare.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| That's an _extremely_ harsh take considering those same owners
| likely do care a lot about their dogs and shower them with love
| and affection outside those 8 hours. You're focusing on a
| single part of the experience in order to paint the whole thing
| in a negative light.
|
| To put it another way, would they be better off being strays? I
| doubt it.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Extremely harsh? Many of these dogs are very smart. What
| about locking a human away for 8 hours with no internet, no
| books, no entertainment, nothing to do?
|
| And it might be affection they give their dogs but it's not
| really love if they are so cruel. Besides, they wouldn't be
| strays if they were never bought, at least not a lot of them
| if the demand were lower, then so would the breeding and
| supply.
| lallysingh wrote:
| I called that K-12.
| triceratops wrote:
| You didn't have books in school?
| rybosworld wrote:
| > What about locking a human away for 8 hours with no
| internet, no books, no entertainment, nothing to do
|
| These arguments fall apart when the animal is
| anthropomorphized.
|
| Dogs sleep a lot more than people do, needing around 12
| hours. They will take about 4 hours of that sleep in the
| day regardless if a human is around.
|
| It's very breed dependent but, the majority of dogs don't
| require a significant amount of mental stimulation. For
| most breeds, a half hour of mental stimulation is plenty.
|
| Obviously locking a husky or a cattle dog in an apartment
| (and this unfortunately does happen), is another story.
| There are certain breeds you shouldn't go for if you live
| in an apartment. But there are a lot of breeds that do just
| fine, even some large ones, like greyhounds.
| matwood wrote:
| Exactly. My wife has been rescuing French Bulldogs for
| years. Even before they were this popular. The problem is
| they have all sorts of health issues that people don't
| account for, so they get turned in more than you think.
| But, their demeanor makes them great apartment dogs.
| They'll happily sleep 15 hours/day, and even when outside
| will lay down in the sun to sleep more.
|
| Speaking of greyhounds, we fostered an Italian Greyhound
| one time...and I thought Frenchies were fragile.
| triceratops wrote:
| Pre-pandemic, when my partner and I had to go to work and
| leave the dog alone, we made sure to leave multiple treat
| toys and puzzles for entertainment, and were never away for
| longer than 6 hours.
|
| Now that we both work from home we can see that the dog
| mostly sleeps all day, occasionally getting up to bark at
| some squirrels or passers-by.
| the_af wrote:
| > _To put it another way, would they be better off being
| strays? I doubt it._
|
| _Adopting_ a dog will probably do it good, but a lot of
| people are buying dogs from dog breeders (and then the
| mentioned behavior happens, dogs left alone to bark in
| apartments). Should dogs be purposefully bred as pets, only
| to be left alone for hours on end?
| Arisaka1 wrote:
| Me and my parents came to an agreement that we will not own a
| pet while we live in an apartment precisely because of this
| sentiment. I also disagree with the strawman the other comment
| presented: The alternative isn't to have the dog fight for
| survival on the streets as a stray. The alternative is to have
| the dog owned by a family that can actually provide it with the
| appropriate environment.
| poloniculmov wrote:
| Dogs are very social and they love to be with their humans,
| your pet is not going to be happier being left alone in the
| back yard than lounging on the couch with you.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I do not see where the parent poster advocated for leaving
| a dog alone in the back yard.
| poloniculmov wrote:
| They didn't, I'm pointing out that the problem isn't the
| space (apartment), but that owners aren't providing
| adequate stimulation and companionship for the dogs.
| rybosworld wrote:
| That's a pretty extreme take.
|
| Being unfit to raise a dog does not imply cruelty.
| newsclues wrote:
| Lived on a farm with a 100 acres a dog could roam freely in.
|
| Live in a suburban house with a small back yard and a small dog
| doesn't like it and wants to roam.
|
| Dogs are great in rural areas, in cities I think they suffer
| for the sake of humans.
| matwood wrote:
| Really depends on the dog. The problem is that people get
| high activity working dogs and then don't work them.
| pookha wrote:
| Not always that simple. I have a giant doberman. I no-shit
| threw a frisbee for this doberman 72 times yesterday (and ran
| with her three miles). She gets more exercise than the
| sheltie I had as a kid that ran leash-free in the country.
| And if you dare leave her in the backyard her whine could
| emit high-pitch frequencies that shake glass. She's a city
| dog that would be lost in the country without a human to hang
| with.
| sph wrote:
| I strongly agree and it's apparent not everybody shares this
| opinion.
|
| I grew up in the countryside in the middle of nowhere, my dog
| used to have an enormous backyard to run in, and was cheeky
| enough to have made a hole in the fence when that time of the
| year came and he really wanted to leave for a couple days at a
| time, either to sire some puppies, or to roll around in horse
| dung. We used a leash whenever we took him amidst civilization,
| otherwise he was used to just walking unleashed, with us
| (mostly getting impatient at how slow humans are), sniffing
| anything he wanted and peeing on every pole that stood in his
| path.
|
| I miss him every day (died at 15 years old a happy and free
| half golden retriever mutt). I'd love another dog, but I know
| they're a type of animal that enjoys a large territory,
| freedom, as well as a social hierarchy. I will have to suffer
| with this hole inside of me until I am able to leave the city
| and offer a dog not only love, but large enough space to run
| around and not get bored to death.
|
| Cats on the other hand, as long as they have food and are left
| alone, can happily live holed up in a flat. Thrive, I'm not
| sure, but they have much simpler needs than dogs.
| temporarely wrote:
| > Cats on the other hand
|
| are much more like humans - cat's dig urbanism, can hang out
| at a cafe for hours, sit on a couch watching the tube all
| day, they happily adapt.. So that' why we say "there's a cool
| cat" but you never hear anything about "cool dogs". So your
| theory is correct in my opinion: dogs are good rural friends
| and cats are good urban friends. There is also the matter of
| dog poop. Has anyone every complained on cat poop on their
| stoop? Or getting bitten by the neighbor's cat? Or being
| annoyed at the neighbor's mewing cat?
|
| Now a cat on a farm, don't know about that. Wonder how that
| would work.
| sph wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm_cat
|
| We domesticated cats so they would keep rats away from our
| winter grain storage.
| Jensson wrote:
| I assume it was more like humans found cats in their
| winter grain storage, saw the cat ate rats and left the
| grain alone, so humans left the cat alone. Ten thousand
| years later and we are now in a closer relationship.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Any farm ive ever been to has about 8 mildly domesticated
| cats that live around the premises.
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| > Now a cat on a farm, don't know about that. Wonder how
| that would work.
|
| Can easily feed themselves from all the rodents enjoying
| the grain supply.
| doublepg23 wrote:
| This is either amazing satire or the most Hacker News
| comment ever written.
| temporarely wrote:
| "Beware of the Cat!" ..
| hsjsbeebue wrote:
| Small dogs can do OK in your typical suburban block. (Block
| as in land for single dwelling). They need walks though
| yes.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Some dogs really can handle modest exercise. I know a happy
| cocker spaniel who's an apartment dweller. Gets a lot of
| human interaction with almost constant human companions, with
| about ten humans rotating in and out of the dogs life over a
| month. So, exercise wise, not too much except walks in the
| city and parks, but socially a very interesting life. I am
| sure a husky would go insane in the same circumstances. It
| also very much depends on the individual, so if you get a
| dog, find out as much as possible how it's close relatives
| behave.
| pvg wrote:
| _Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents._
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| scrapcode wrote:
| Unfortunately, this pet-owner energy mismatch extends to those
| who live in all types of environments. People will often seek a
| companion putting plenty of research into their looks, size,
| and how much they shed - without paying mind to the breed's
| temperament. I work with high-drive waterfowl retrievers that
| have seemingly endless energy and they can really start to act
| up without proper frequent exercise. They require multiple 20+
| minute sessions of training/running per day that would be
| equivalent to many miles of running each session.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| I generally agree that cities and apartments aren't great
| places for dogs.
|
| But a lot of dogs are rescues, and a lot of breeds are quite
| happy in apartments.
|
| There are also a lot of mitigations possible. There are dog
| walkers and dog sitters who come by and walk the dogs during
| the daytime. You can have multiple dogs that keep each other
| company. Etc. based on the number of dogs
| locked away in apartments all day barking and bored to
| death with almost no stimulation
|
| Respectfully, it seems like you don't know a lot about dogs?
|
| A barking dog isn't necessarily distressed. In fact, they're
| probably not distressed: there are a lot of other ways that
| dogs show that.
|
| They also like to sleep during the daytime. They sleep a lot in
| general. They are pretty adaptable to our schedules.
|
| While I generally don't think we should be breeding dogs _at
| all,_ the reality is that there are a lot of dogs who need
| homes (as well as homes who need dogs!) and in the majority of
| situations I think that getting dogs into homes with a loving
| family is preferable to euthanizing them.
| antisthenes wrote:
| > While I generally don't think we should be breeding dogs at
| all
|
| What do you mean by this? If we don't breed dogs, in about 15
| years or so, there will be no dogs left at all.
| Sprocklem wrote:
| I can't speak for GP, but I personally find it kind of
| fucked up that we selectively breed a lot of dogs for
| certain asthetic traits at the expense of their health. I
| assume they meant this brand of artificial selection rather
| than letting dogs reproduce at all.
| JohnBooty wrote:
| Right. I wasn't very clear. I perhaps made it sound like I
| didn't want any more dogs to be born.
|
| To be clearer, my wish is that we could curtail breeding
| until supply matched demand. Rather than the current
| situation where lots of dogs are put down because there are
| more dogs than homes.
| dazc wrote:
| I am not a lover of dogs, which some people seem to find
| offensive? Yet, people who are cruel to dogs are, generally,
| dog owners and not people like me who just give them a wide
| berth.
|
| Anyone who thinks an animal enjoys being locked indoors all day
| with no understanding of why, or for how long it will be, is a
| much lesser person than me.
| the_common_man wrote:
| They are pets and not friends
| walthamstow wrote:
| For a lot of dog owners, their dog is less a friend and more an
| Instagram cast member
| lenerdenator wrote:
| Likely twice as old as written language.
|
| https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html
|
| Abuse of a dog or cat is a crime against civilization itself.
| 8338550bff96 wrote:
| I've made this argument many times and it always raises
| eyebrows and induces shrugs. We as a species co-evolved with
| some animals and not others. Our partnership with extends deep
| into the mists of pre-history. We and they have co-evolved to
| an extent to be better companions. Eating a dog is a profound
| betrayal unlike that of eating a horse. Come at me
| bigbillheck wrote:
| We've got a pretty long-standing partnership with horses too.
| lainga wrote:
| Indeed, but the switch from long-standing to long-riding is
| a relatively recent innovation, by the Romans, Arabs et al.
| (by breeding horses large enough to ride on), after the Sea
| Peoples demonstrated how to defeat charioteers
| callalex wrote:
| This is like arguing about if it's better to regularly beat
| your sibling or your cousin. Just don't beat anybody!
| lukan wrote:
| Compagnions and friends?
|
| Maybe when we were nomads and the dogs roamed around freely
| around the tribe.
|
| But most dogs today are locked in, most of the time and when
| they get outside, they are on a leash. Totally dependant on
| their human masters.
|
| I don't think I would describe that relationship as a
| partnership.
|
| Then there is the concept of breeding them, to establish
| certain "cute" traits, but cause great pain and misery to the
| animal:
|
| https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualzucht (german)
|
| I would argue, the native american tribes, who also did eat
| their dogs, treated them better overall, than humanity does
| today on average. So many dogs bred for running around, are
| lucky today, if they get to walk around outside for more than
| 20 minutes. This I would call betrayal.
| zen928 wrote:
| > I would argue, the native american tribes, who also did
| eat their dogs, treated them better overall, than humanity
| does today on average. So many dogs bred for running
| around, are lucky today, if they get to walk around outside
| for more than 20 minutes. This I would call betrayal.
|
| Do you relatively equate this to how we treat other animals
| right now, killing the planet's livable ecosystems while
| exclusively creating living spaces and amenities for these
| domestic pets and treating the nature they come from as
| second class? Tens to hundreds of thousands of unique
| species and subspecies go extinct at previously unrecorded
| rates, but selective breeding of vanity traits in pet
| animals remains a common past time. There's clearly an
| attachment to these animals and breeds that keeps them in
| our conscious above others to consider it worthwhile to
| hold them in public reverence in a way that can still be
| described as companionship.
|
| We've flipped the needle on adapting them for survival
| companionship to (essentially) slaved ownership with the
| aftereffects like you've mentioned, but I think zooming in
| on the scale of an individual societies' treatment won't
| generally be favorable. We barely even treat our own
| species with a level of achievable compassion for anyone
| deemed undesirable or are a lower class, the betrayal
| starts earlier than our treatment towards dogs.
| lukan wrote:
| "Do you relatively equate this to how we treat other
| animals right now"
|
| I only talked about dogs and humans.
| zen928 wrote:
| Yeah, it's a bit narrow minded to exclude the rest of the
| historical context while comparing two isolated points in
| time. Sure makes an entirely emotion-driven plea look
| initially more compelling and legitimate though! Good for
| you on sticking to your preferred form of discourse.
| pmart123 wrote:
| There are still many instances where this partnership is
| the case though. Search and rescue, avalanche rescue,
| herding, security and law enforcement, disability
| assistance, bomb/drug detection, hunting, etc. A lot of the
| companion dogs are useless for these roles, but many
| popular breeds could perform these tasks if given the
| training. On the west coast, people generally seem much
| more active with their dogs imo.
| lukan wrote:
| Yes I know, which is why I said "on average". Another big
| group of human-dog partnership, are with
| hippie/gypsy/punk people - but those dogs usually tend to
| be very annoying (and also dangerous) to everyone else.
| nix0n wrote:
| > https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualzucht (german)
|
| Here[0] is an English-language explanation of the term
| Qualzucht (with the English translation given as "torture
| breeding").
|
| That German article also references a BBC documentary,
| which has its own English Wikipedia entry[1].
|
| [0]https://www.petethevet.com/qualzucht-is-a-term-that-
| should-b...
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed
| 8338550bff96 wrote:
| This doesn't really seem relevant to what I am saying. Or
| at least does no harm to my argument.
| sph wrote:
| I am OK with some cultures not eating some meats: pork for
| the muslims or jews, horse for some Western countries,
| sometimes rabbit. Where I'm from (Italy) we eat both horse
| and rabbits.
|
| But I too draw the line at eating dogs and cats, except
| during extreme survival situations where it's eat your pet
| (or fellow human) to avoid starvation. I feel eating canids
| and felids as taboo as eating a primate, or eating a human.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Just as there are places where eating canids and felids is
| not taboo - so too are there places where eating a primate
| is not taboo. A larger geography by far as far as I know.
|
| By this argument and amount of places (not people), eating
| a primate might be less taboo than eating a canid or felid?
|
| As an American, I feel the same cultural taboos and they've
| kept me from eating some things but I've been
| reconsidering. Horse and rabbit were delicious.
|
| What about coyote or mountain lion though? Those are still
| but seldom eaten in America mostly by hunters.
|
| Some people draw the line at not eating predators not
| because of cultural taboo but because of bio accumulation
| issues.
|
| Fascinating ethnobiology and moral boundary discussion.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| And then you have a ton of people that eat beef all the
| time, vs a ton of people that revere cows; in certain
| places you can be imprisoned or lynched for slaughtering
| one, google "cow vigilantism".
|
| It always interests me to consider just how relative
| taboos can be.
| leosanchez wrote:
| > in certain places you can be imprisoned or lynched for
| slaughtering one
|
| Only one country isn't it ?
| sandspar wrote:
| If it counts, that one country makes up 17% of living
| humans.
| leosanchez wrote:
| I know. I was just curious if there is any other country
| that revere cows.
| ViktorRay wrote:
| Don't forget Nepal!
|
| Nepal's population is 82 percent Hindu. This means many
| people from Nepal respect cows very much.
|
| It is legal to eat beef in Nepal and many major hotels
| will serve it. However, it is illegal to kill a cow
| within the country.
| sph wrote:
| I think the issue with predators is that they taste "bad"
| compared to herbivores. Maybe we have evolved not to like
| they because of bioaccumulation, i.e. its not just a
| cultural norm.
|
| I cannot think of a land-dwelling meat-eating animal
| human routinely eat. We eat chicken, but they eat
| anything including rocks, and they're towards the bottom
| rank of good-tasting meats anyway.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| Just depends on the timeframe. There was a period when
| black bear meat was very popular apparently.
| matwood wrote:
| I wouldn't eat a horse either, but otherwise agree. Dogs have
| evolved the skills to fit in human social structures. They
| really do become part of families.
| consf wrote:
| And actually animal abuse, especially when it occurs during
| childhood, can be an early indicator of psychological issues...
| alephknoll wrote:
| > https://www.livescience.com/stone-age-dog-burial.html
|
| "Of note, it's unclear whether the dog died a natural death, or
| whether it was killed to be buried with its human. An analysis
| of its remains may reveal this mystery."
|
| What are the odds that the dog died of natural causes at
| exactly the same time as the owner?
|
| > Abuse of a dog or cat is a crime against civilization itself.
|
| That logic doesn't follow. If dogs predate civilization, then
| how could it be a crime against civilization? Your article is
| about dogs in primitive hunter gatherer societies. Not
| civilizations. Besides, many civilizations have thrived abusing
| dogs and cats. You might want to read what the bible says about
| 'unclean' dogs. Or why we have the saying 'there is more than
| one way to skin a cat'.
|
| Or how 'civilizations' dispatched of dogs not too long ago.
|
| https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/...
|
| Not to mention the millions of cats/dogs that are 'euthanized'
| every year or the hundreds of million of cats and dogs that are
| castrated ( which people oddly don't consider to be abuse ).
| Heck, it's not hard to argue that imprisoning animals in your
| home as 'pets' is abuse.
|
| If anything, civilization is an abuse against dogs and cats.
| prmoustache wrote:
| As a cyclist, I can't say dogs are my best friends. OTOH I have
| had great bonds with some cats.
| Unfrozen0688 wrote:
| You have stray dogs where you live or what? Cant say cycling
| has affected my views on dogs.
| prmoustache wrote:
| Lots of stray dogs around here in south of Spain. Also when I
| used to be a 12y old cycling in rural france that was pretty
| much the same, I was always prepared for a sprint whenever I
| would reach a farm.
|
| In a sense it probably made me stronger but I can't say I
| build a friendship and a mutual sense of confidence with
| dogs.
| navigate8310 wrote:
| I wonder what makes them hunt cyclists and some cars that
| pass by.
| Jensson wrote:
| Instincts? Wolves hunt animals much larger than
| themselves for a living, they run after, nibble their
| ankles and wait for them to make a mistake and then they
| go in.
| extr wrote:
| My dogs bark at people on bike/motorcycles/scooters. I
| think they code as a big animal to them. Once we get up
| close and it's clear that it's a person on a machine they
| stop barking.
| doubled112 wrote:
| As a counter point to hunting, my dog seems to be afraid
| of almost anything on wheels. Even a skateboard without
| rider is a hard nope, and will send her tail tucked
| behind me.
|
| She's a 90 lbs Mastiff/St Bernard/Lab cross. It's not
| like she's worried about being crushed or eaten. She
| could probably eat me.
|
| Or maybe she doesn't realize she's big. I don't know.
| switch007 wrote:
| Some breeds have a higher prey drive than others.
|
| But many bad behaviours are pretty easy to train out of
| most dogs (eg barking at passer-bys). Dogs are easy to
| train. Too many lazy owners blame their "nature" or
| "that's just how they are" as if they can't do anything.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Perhaps this is in order
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velo-dog
| prmoustache wrote:
| Well I don't want them any harm either. I understand all
| this is a big misunderstanding as they probably feel I am
| a danger to them.
| bee_rider wrote:
| > For the more humane, there were cartridges loaded with
| cayenne pepper or dust,
|
| Could probably go for pepper spray nowadays.
| Unfrozen0688 wrote:
| ah okay thats not a thing here in Sweden.
|
| So its not cycling then its a stray dog thing :)
| bagels wrote:
| I've been bitten by off leash dogs in California. They often
| give chase and try to attack your legs or bike wheels causing
| a crash.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Cycling in rural Virginia/West Virginia has this risk as well.
| 99% of pooches just want to run along and make noise, but 1/100
| wants flesh.
|
| The solution - never be the slowest in the group!
| klyrs wrote:
| When in Rome... open/constitutional carry, stand your ground?
| alistairSH wrote:
| Open carry is legal in both states. But I want nothing to
| do with owning/carrying guns. And haven't ever felt the
| need - most dogs give up chase once you pass their
| property. And I've only had a dog get my back tire once,
| and never flesh (though it does happen).
| aeyes wrote:
| If there is more than one dog then you are almost always
| in big trouble.
|
| I got bitten on a bike before, we have lots of aggressive
| stray dogs here. Even running routes have to be carefully
| planned to avoid the dogs.
| klyrs wrote:
| > But I want nothing to do with owning/carrying guns.
|
| I said "when in Rome" to signal distaste at the idea, for
| whatever that's worth. On the other hand, if bicycling
| leftists armed themselves and started blasting away every
| car and dog that made them feel threatened, it might move
| the needle on gun rights in a way that right-wing
| shooters fail to.
|
| And, I've had several dogs escape their fences. They
| aren't just noisy.
| chasd00 wrote:
| i was walking my two dogs Sunday before last and was jumped
| by pitbulls roaming the neighborhood. A passing Dominos
| delivery driver pretty much saved the lives of both my
| dogs. I got him to role down his window and literally threw
| one of my dogs through it, then when the other one got
| separated for a min she literally jumped through the open
| window too. I jumped in and paid the driver $20 to take me
| home, the pits chased the car for maybe a block.
|
| I have a pistol and was thinking about carrying it but that
| means every time i take my dogs for a walk i have to get it
| out of the safe and put it back in the safe. I have kids so
| can't just hang a holster with the leashes. Too much hassle
| and I know i'll eventually stop taking it with me. What i
| ended up doing was getting bear spray that can attach to
| the leashes. Now I can't forget to take protection with me
| when taking the dogs out because it's physically attached
| to the leash.
|
| edit: this happened in Dallas TX
| fransje26 wrote:
| I, too, like cycling around with my shotgun. It nicely
| complements the spandex outfit.
| klyrs wrote:
| Missed opportunity here. I found a number of gun racks
| for bikes, but no hardpoint mounts for gun turrets on
| bikes.
| sib wrote:
| Bikers gotta watch out for the cats as well!
|
| https://www.kuow.org/stories/cougar-attack-washington-state-...
| bagels wrote:
| Deadly and non-deadly mountain lion attacks are rare, but dog
| attacks are not rare.
| Jrjrir48 wrote:
| I do hiking, the same.
|
| Pepper spray, knife etc are illegal here. I carry air horn for
| quick deployment, and petards (very small explosives). Saved my
| ass twice! Once I was surrounded by pack of four large dogs!
| baal80spam wrote:
| Wait, what? What country is a self-defense item like a pepper
| spray illegal in?
| Jrjrir48 wrote:
| Most EU, some US states, some places have age limits...
| abid786 wrote:
| You're not allowed to carry pepper spray in Canada for self
| defence purposes
| westmeal wrote:
| No offense but why do you care what the law says when you're
| by yourself in the middle of the wilderness?
| Jrjrir48 wrote:
| It is mostly South Europe, not wilderness but more like 10
| km from nearest village of 2000 people. Injuring dog is a
| serious offense here ($20k fine, perhaps jail). I am also
| foreigner, not local citizen...
| dmz73 wrote:
| I can't say cyclists are my best friends either. Just had two
| buzz me with with few mm to spare while walking to work. Yes, I
| was on the footpath, cyclists are not allowed to ride on
| footpaths here, there was a bicycle path right next to the
| footpath. If I was a dog that would be even more disturbing - a
| huge fast monkey trying to kill you (and your owner) while you
| peacefully walk.
| prmoustache wrote:
| More than friendship, I think this is more a case of dependency.
| Sometimes it goes one way, sometimes both ways especially in the
| emotional part.
| AndrewKemendo wrote:
| >The current top contender for the first best friend is a puppy
| that lived, for a few months, more than 14,000 years ago in
| Central Europe.
|
| Which tracks with the neolithic transition when we started
| "domesticating" animals for all purposes
| feintruled wrote:
| It's a bit of a fringe theory but there's a suggestion that the
| human 'alliance' with wolves gave us the edge over Neanderthals
| and other predators and ensured that it was us who ultimately
| survived as a species. It's a nice thought for a dog lover.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Why wouldn't neanderthals form an alliance with wolves too?
| Especially considering Neanderthals had a multi-hundred-
| thousand year head start in wolf range compared to homo
| sapiens.
| b5 wrote:
| It's an interesting question. I don't know if there's any
| evidence of wolf domestication by Neanderthals. If they
| didn't domesticate them, it would be interesting to try to
| work out _why_ - maybe there's a subtle difference in
| psychology between _H. Sapiens_ and _H. Neanderthalensis_
| that enabled us to bridge that gap but not them?
| acchow wrote:
| There isn't a whole lot of evidence for how Neanderthals
| lived. We have only discovered remnants of 400 Neanderthals
| (about 30 mostly-complete skeletons).
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Reminded me of the experiment to domesticate silver foxes[1].
| Apparently they got quite tame foxes in just 30 generations.
|
| Interestingly, while they were selected purely for lack of
| aggression towards humans they started to develop dog-like
| physical traits.
|
| Hasn't been replicated yet, and doubtfully will, but interesting.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
| sdwr wrote:
| Really fascinating, I love the implication that domestication
| is tied to juvenile characteristics (getting along in a group
| means acting more like a kid than an adult protecting your
| territory / breeding rights).
|
| > "Are we domesticated in the sense of dogs? No. But I am
| comfortable saying that the first thing that has to happen to
| get a human from an apelike ancestor is a substantial increase
| in tolerance toward one another."
| Natsu wrote:
| It also seems to have something to do with adrenaline, making
| them less fearful. It's really interesting research.
| Zenzero wrote:
| That is backwards. The cortisol measurement approximates
| the level of stress and fear. It does not cause it.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| I recall reading many years ago how humans are fundamentally
| juvenile even when we reach adulthood, given our propensity
| to socialize and more importantly play.
| imzadi wrote:
| It's interesting, though, because anyone who has ever owned a
| cat knows that they are only barely domesticated. It might be
| something in the canine brain that makes it easy to domesticate
| them.
| Retric wrote:
| I don't think a lot of effort was put into actually
| intentionally breeding cats for domestication.
|
| People seem to love them as semi wild animals and unlike dogs
| they aren't dangerous enough to be put down when they start
| biting people. On top of that a large percentage of the
| population are actually wild animals aka feral. Spend a lot
| of time with a kitten and it may become extremely
| affectionate, but we also habitually neuter them unlike the
| wild population. Go back 1,000 years and I suspect people
| acted similarly though without the neutering.
|
| So the external evolutionary pressure for domestication
| doesn't seem nearly as strong as with those foxes, and might
| currently be going in the other direction.
| satellite2 wrote:
| It's because dogs are wolf with the Williams Syndrome. A DNA
| deletion syndrome which reduces aggression and increases
| empathy. In humans the syndrome produces individuals with
| characteristic facial features, a big smile and friendly
| traits.
|
| Edit: visibly dog lovers are not too keen on learning that
| their best friends have a genetic abnormality. But that
| doesn't make it less true, it's pretty well documented. It
| doesn't mean that dogs are lesser somehow, they are still
| perfectly viable it the wild (well not the races resulting
| from the most extreme genetic selections, but most of them)
| codexb wrote:
| Williams syndrome is only in humans. It's not even a
| particularly hereditary condition. If what you said was
| true, we would expect to see modern day wild Wolves with
| this same genetic abnormality. Or we would expect to see
| wolves (and other predators, too) domesticated many
| different times in many different places, whenever this
| animal version of "Williams Syndrome" naturally occurred.
| We don't see that.
|
| There are plenty of other genetically similar canine
| species that aren't domesticated. There are plenty of
| related animal (seals, ferrets, skunks) that aren't been
| widely domesticated, but are completely capable of being
| domesticated on an individual level, and none of them
| possess genetic abnormalities
|
| One thing that many of these animals have in common is that
| they are fairly comfortable and adaptable to living in very
| close proximity to humans. That's true of modern day
| coyotes, raccoons, etc.
|
| Humans have 99.9% identical DNA. All the variation you see
| in humans is explained by just 0.1% genetic differences.
| There's no reason to believe that the same isn't true for
| dogs without having to resort to a rare genetic deformity.
| canjobear wrote:
| Cats aren't as deeply domesticated as dogs but there's
| clearly been some breeding effect which you see when you
| compare a housecat against a true wildcat (felis silvestris).
| The main thing is that housecats are comfortable around
| humans as long as they're exposed to humans within a critical
| age window, even if they were born in the wild to a feral
| cat. In contrast, wildcats never become comfortable around
| humans and are effectively always feral.
|
| Housecats also have a number of behaviors that seem only
| distantly related to things that would be useful in the wild,
| such as meowing for attention. Another weird behavior is when
| cats line up dead mice outside their owner's bedroom door
| like a present. There's clearly some relationship that they
| understand between themselves and their owner.
| droptablemain wrote:
| Whereas dogs were trained/bred/selected for specific
| purposes, I suspect cats were just kind of hanging out,
| following rodents which were were adjacent to human
| settlements.
|
| It's easy to imagine humans simply tolerating them because
| they kept mice under control around grain and other food
| storage.
|
| Intuitively that matches my perception of the cat-human
| relationship vs. the dog-human relationship.
| cdchn wrote:
| I remember reading once that cats pretend domesticated
| themselves. Rather then changing themselves to be more docile
| and acceptable to humans they adapted traits that just make
| them seem more appealing to humans.
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _anyone who has ever owned a cat knows that they are only
| barely domesticated_
|
| just speculating, but wolves are "pack" animals, so they are
| already adapted to cooperating with each other and following
| a leader. perhaps that made them easier to train and
| domesticate. cats aren't like that except in the "lion pride"
| breeding sense which is perhaps a narrower skillset in terms
| of utility.
|
| and of course, anybody who has owned a tiger will tell you
| that a cat is fairly domesticated :) I mention it because
| "domesticated" and "useful as a friend" might be two
| different things.
| pvg wrote:
| A few years ago someone was raising new questions about the
| validity of this study, it doesn't seem mentioned in the
| wikipedia page and I don't know how/if it was resolved or
| settled:
|
| https://www.sciencenews.org/article/russian-foxes-tameness-d...
| partiallypro wrote:
| Ancient Romans and Greeks would write things about their dogs and
| have custom grave stones made, one of my favorites reads:
|
| "My eyes were wet with tears, our little dog, when I bore thee
| (to the grave)... So, Patricus, never again shall thou give me a
| thousand kisses. Never canst thou be contentedly in my lap. In
| sadness have I buried thee, and thou deservist. In a resting
| place of marble, I have put thee for all time by the side of my
| shade. In thy qualities, sagacious thou wert like a human being.
| Ah, me! What a loved companion have we lost!"
| westmeal wrote:
| Damn he must've been the goodest boy of all time, rest in peace
| Patricus.
| willmadden wrote:
| Well before the cataclysm 12k years ago.
| entropicgravity wrote:
| Humans and dogs were two borderline species until dogs were
| domesticated. But together the two were so complementary, that
| they never looked back. The dogs had the speed, teeth, smell and
| baby sitting while humans had the weapons, rock throwing,
| intelligence and cooking. It was and is a killer combination that
| rose to the top of the animal world on earth so far.
| sema4hacker wrote:
| By baby sitting you mean dog hearing?
| entropicgravity wrote:
| It's tricky for women to raise children in the wild.
| Especially once kids get to the ages between 2.5 and 8 when
| they'll want to explore their ever changing environment but
| mom still has to look for plants and berries and keep an eye
| any dangers and carnivores that are around. Dogs protect
| their own little ones in the wild and readily help to keep an
| eye on the human youngsters in the same way. Further more
| dogs will sound the alarm when needed. It's one more helping,
| important hand, that dogs bring to the bargain.
| wingworks wrote:
| Dogs are the worst... at least some dog owners who leave their
| dogs outside barking all morning. Not nice for the neighbors and
| not nice to the dog.
| proc0 wrote:
| Dogs are little more than farm animals, in the sense that we're
| farming them for companionship. They might be our friends now
| that we have killed all the ones that would defy our commands.
|
| Look at any wild animal, do they want to be owned, do they want
| to be put on a leash? Of course not. Animals want to be free like
| any other living being, but just like cows, dogs would not
| survive on their own because we have artificially selected them.
| Imagine aliens capturing humans, breeding them in captivity until
| they are docile little creatures that cannot survive on their
| own. It's easy to feel sorry for farm animals because we eat
| them, but in a way people who love pets are not any better than
| the farmer, despite the culture thinking otherwise.
| fiedzia wrote:
| > Look at any wild animal, do they want to be owned, do they
| want to be put on a leash?
|
| Numerous wild animals can be held as pets, without going
| through domestication, so apparently they do. If you feed them,
| they may have no reason to mind the leash, life is hard in the
| wild.
| proc0 wrote:
| I think we would need to make a distinction between holding a
| wild animal in captivity temporarily and owning one as a pet
| or as an exhibition at the zoo. When people help wild animals
| that is of course good for them, and it helps preserve wild
| life. Having them as pets on the other hand is a different
| matter, and I would be very skeptical even if the animal
| seems happy because ultimately it would not know or have
| awareness of what is really going on. That said, it's a
| complicated issue, so it's not like I'm saying no one should
| own pets.
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