[HN Gopher] Vasopressin deficiency: driver of social impairment ...
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Vasopressin deficiency: driver of social impairment and fluid
imbalance in ASD? [pdf]
Author : jbotz
Score : 124 points
Date : 2024-03-23 08:05 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (med.stanford.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (med.stanford.edu)
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| Doing quick search, there is also interactions between
| Vasopressin and salt and blood pressure. Could ASD be helped by
| reducing salt? or increasing salt?
|
| I'm not knowledgeable enough to untangle all of the studies where
| these terms are also used, which I guess is part of the problem
| this paper is pointing out, that the terminology/naming is
| confusing.
|
| Is this saying if you have blood pressure problems you might also
| be at risk of ASD.
|
| Or opposite, if you have ASD, you might have more risk of blood
| pressure problems.
|
| "The name AVP refers to the hormone's role in increasing vascular
| resistance and regulating blood pressure (via AVP receptor"
|
| "Given the emerging evidence for central AVP signaling
| abnormalities in ASD, we would expect individuals with ASD, or a
| subgroup of them, to be at increased risk of AVP-related medical
| conditions and symptoms. "
| notaurus wrote:
| The article is proposing the latter. Low AVP could contribute
| to symptoms of ASD. If this is true, they expect a positive
| correlation between ASD and other better-known issues caused by
| low AVP.
| heyoni wrote:
| You're almost there. It's saying that you're at risk for
| central diabetes insipidus known to cause abnormal thirst and
| urination in like the next paragraph.
|
| What I find hilarious is that the whole first paragraph is
| about things being named after scientists and then there's an
| author named Gesundheit...now I need to look that up.
| zelphirkalt wrote:
| (Gesundheit = Health)
| c0pium wrote:
| Sometimes, and sometimes it's a name.
|
| https://profiles.stanford.edu/neil-gesundheit
| colloydi wrote:
| And very occasionally it's a serendipitous name!
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Nominative Determinism is a hell of a thing.
| loceng wrote:
| One thing I always found interesting is that inducing a fever
| in autistic people, in some of them it will reduce the severity
| of their autistic characteristics.
| Solvency wrote:
| citation.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Google. https://hms.harvard.edu/news/cracking-fever-autism-
| mystery
| sp332 wrote:
| Your citation looks fine, but telling people to Google
| for citations is just pointing them straight at spam.
| Solvency wrote:
| "...in mice."
| loceng wrote:
| Confirmed in mice, observed first anecdotally in children
| with autism.
|
| I'm blown away we still as a society don't have a system
| where all of this information is quickly accessible in a
| sorted way by various trusted organizations that follow
| specific protocols that people determine how trustworthy
| they are.
| c0pium wrote:
| That would require us as a society to develop concrete
| solutions to determining who can be trusted. That's
| obviously impossible, so we're stuck with the process we
| have.
| loceng wrote:
| It's actually the individual's responsibility to develop
| an understanding of how one determines what is
| trustworthy and what isn't trustworthy, and they they do
| their best to develop that. For example, if someone lies,
| they are caught lying, the evidence is presented but a
| person doesn't care or put any weight on that someone
| lied - well, they are going to rank that person or an
| organization they are running or still party to.
|
| I'd argue it's bad actors who don't want such a highly
| organized system that helps people discern easier, a sort
| of societal wide "fog of war" to make knowing closer
| towards the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
| truth - harder; with AI generated images and video
| coming, I don't know how society will cope with such a
| thing - where "video evidence" could exist painting a
| horrific reputation of someone to destroy them perhaps
| not only economically but perhaps also weaponizing a mob
| to kill someone.
| Solvency wrote:
| you mean like the "science" and "experts" paid off by the
| sugar industry to promote sugar for 50 years while
| demonizing fat?
| roywiggins wrote:
| The one that weirds me out is that sleep deprivation can
| quite rapidly reduce depression, if only temporarily:
|
| https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-
| releases/2017/septemb...
| salad-tycoon wrote:
| I did this in my late young years. It worked. Got started
| reading into "polyphasic sleeping " , we were deluded for
| thinking it could be a long term healthy schedule but it
| definitely seems to have given me a mood reset and cured my
| insomnia.
| aszantu wrote:
| Some of them also respond to anti biotics
| michaelrpeskin wrote:
| > Could ASD be helped by reducing salt? or increasing salt?
|
| Personal story here (N=1, not claiming anything other than
| that). My dad is clearly ASD, and has battled high blood
| pressure for as long as I can remember. He's now suffering the
| consequences of 40 years of absolute salt avoidance. 1) I never
| saw and reduction in the ASD over the past 40 years, 2) lack of
| salt never changed his blood pressure, and 3) now he's
| suffering other heath effects, but won't listen to me and only
| wants to do more of the same.
| naasking wrote:
| Avoiding table salt thoroughly could potentially lead to
| iodine deficiency. It was somewhat common in the past so most
| table salt over the past century has had iodine added to it
| to avoid this, but it's cropping back up a bit as people
| avoid salt or prefer to use "natural rock salts" common in
| fine cuisine, which are not reinforced with iodine.
| hilux wrote:
| Iodine is in a _lot_ of foods.
| naasking wrote:
| If it were common enough in available foods then they
| wouldn't have added it to table salt.
| hilux wrote:
| IIRC this was added long ago, when Americans ate less
| meat, dairy, and seafood and were more prone to
| malnutrition.
| naasking wrote:
| And yet, levels have been measurably going down, and
| Europeans are already fairly deficient since they don't
| have as many iodine supplementation programs:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9459956/
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/iodine.htm
| hilux wrote:
| My prediction: in fifty years, "low-salt" will have gone the
| way of "low-fat." Too late for millions of people whose
| health was injured and lives shortened by these terrible
| fads.
| rafaelero wrote:
| Improbable since reducing added fats is still as good
| advice today as it was 5 decades ago.
| hilux wrote:
| Exactly right. Reducing dietary fats is "as good" advice
| as it was or ever will be.
| notrealyme123 wrote:
| His BP could be worse with salt.
| chris_wot wrote:
| That's a fascinating introduction - they are concerned that dual
| (!) name of the molecule might be hiding all of its functions!
|
| It looks like naming thing is not just a problem for programmers.
| tootie wrote:
| When I was diagnosed with a neurological condition that was
| having mostly physical symptoms, the first-line defense was
| antidepressants. So-named because they were developed to
| relieve depression, but really what they do is inhibit
| absorption of serotonin and/or norepinephrine leaving more free
| in the body to act on myriad different bodily functions. In my
| case, it actually caused serious digestion issues. It really
| clicked for me how everything in your brain is a physical
| process. Not just motor function, but cognition and emotions
| are all physical functions of how a very complicated mess of
| molecules bounce off each other. Autism, Alzheimers, ALS are
| all just misfiring molecules inside your skull. And it is
| therefore a given that it is physically possible to realign
| them back into order somehow. We just need to find the right
| tool to do it.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Yes! This! We are our bodies, and our bodies are biochemical.
| I'm encouraged by growing awareness and acceptance of things
| like psilocybin-based treatment for PTSD. Psychobiology is
| fundamental to... everything a human can experience or be.
| difosfor wrote:
| Of course there will be lots of molecules involved, but that
| doesn't make it any easier to understand let alone do
| something about it. In medicine and especially in psychology
| our functioning is a huge black box with only indirect
| knowledge about interactions with certain things at a very
| high level.
| aszantu wrote:
| Was an anti- inflammatory diet for me
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| You can get tested for this if you have ASD by getting a copeptin
| test.
| mdon wrote:
| What do you change about your lifestyle with that test result?
| I have a child with ASD, and also drinks mad amounts of water.
| But I didn't see any treatment plan if this deficiency is
| confirmed.
| RobotToaster wrote:
| Usually the treatment is desmopressin I believe.
| amluto wrote:
| Find a clinical trial, perhaps? There seems to be a bit of
| study in this direction:
|
| https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2019/05/hormone-
| reduc...
| mdon wrote:
| Thank you for this link!
| hasty_pudding wrote:
| Essentially if this theory is accurate it kind of shares
| similar patterns to diabetes insipidus which is essentially
| vasopressin dysfunction.
|
| So you can Google that and see how that is treated and tested
| for.
| mdon wrote:
| Thanks
| mchannon wrote:
| I've theorized in my book _Fat Gas_ that vasopressin levels are
| tied to elevated indoor CO2 levels.
|
| Would not be at all surprised if these novel social conditions
| stem from not going outside enough and from poorly ventilated
| buildings (especially gyms and conference rooms) and transport
| (planes trains and automobiles each routinely exceed 1000 ppm
| from everybody's lungs).
| Solvency wrote:
| Or dense urban housing. But we're not allowed to criticize
| that, right. Homes with yards and green space are evil!
| paulsutter wrote:
| CO2 levels are high in enclosed spaces, not in urban
| environments
| RobotToaster wrote:
| People who live in urban environments statistically spend
| less time outdoors.
| jogjayr wrote:
| Citation? Won't people who live in small apartments need
| to go out more often for necessities? I know I did.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| In US cities, going for groceries barely entails time
| spent outside. You drive your mobile living room to the
| store and back.
| jogjayr wrote:
| The person I replied was speaking specifically about
| urban areas.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| Did your source consider time spent in vehicles to be
| "indoors", "outdoors", or its own category? It definitely
| makes a difference.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Oddly, I've suspected the opposite. In my eyes, people
| who live in urban areas walk for transportation far more
| often than suburbanites.
| chownie wrote:
| This doesn't follow?
|
| The co2 level indoors is decided far more by whether you have
| the windows open (or perhaps if you're cooking) than whether
| you have people living close by to you.
| goosejuice wrote:
| Many high rises in urban areas have few windows that open
| and poor ventilation for cooking. There is a relationship,
| although maybe not as large as parent is implying.
| kiba wrote:
| Actually, roads and parking garage and driveways take up
| spaces that could be used for parks and greenery. You could
| have tramways with grassy cover, for example.
|
| Every time when I drive to anywhere, I am surrounded by five
| lane stroads.
|
| By removing all these spaces for cars, you could add back in
| green spaces. Houses with backyards can still exists, but
| they will be closer together. Parks will be closer and more
| accessible.
|
| Plus you can design buildings to have green spaces, or at
| least support plants. Special consideration would be needed
| to make rooftop of buildings green, especially when you have
| to consider the weight and wind.
|
| Space efficiency in urbanism is the key to reclaiming green
| spaces in our urban context.
| Solvency wrote:
| when did I say anything about cars? I say to hell with all
| cars, replace everything with bicycles and electric
| scooters. Then we can use lightrail to connect larger
| communities to one another.
| klausa wrote:
| You'll have lower CO2 levels in a dense urban housing with
| windows open, than in a home in the middle of nowhere with
| the windows closed.
|
| The issue isn't the higher amount of CO2 in the ambient air
| in the cities (AIUI it is; marginally; but it doesn't
| matter); it's that CO2 is very good at concentrating in
| enclosed spaces.
| Solvency wrote:
| literally only in the currently designed world dominated by
| large cars, which is equally outrageous. Nuke the entire
| nonsense system we have, let people have homes in yards,
| and force everyone to get around on bicycles and electric
| scooters and electric accessibility carts.
| klausa wrote:
| I'm confused; what changes to indoor CO2 levels do you
| think that would bring?
| tootie wrote:
| I mean, it's cars. Fossil fuel combustion in general, but car
| exhaust in particular.
| pc86 wrote:
| Cars don't lead to increased indoor CO2 levels.
| tootie wrote:
| Yeah, I'm disagreeing with you. It's not CO2. I won't say
| it's impossible, but it's pretty implausible. We already
| know how bad leaded gasoline was at poisoning an entire
| generation. Modern cars are cleaner, but miles driven keeps
| increasing and the amount pollutants being emitted are
| poisoning people.
| c0pium wrote:
| So cars=bad[?]cars->ASD? Is that your argument?
| polishdude20 wrote:
| How would this be true for planes? They're constantly being fed
| fresh air from the engines during flight.
| pc86 wrote:
| It's true for every other mode of transport but objectively
| false for planes _in flight_. However, I 'd be curious to see
| the average when including time sitting on the ground,
| taxiing, etc., and how that much lower speed affects
| circulation.
| binoct wrote:
| The refreshed air in the cabin is driven by engine bleed
| air (or a dedicated pressure pump) so even at idle power
| there is nothing preventing a high rate of cabin air
| exchange. There might still be less air flowing on the
| ground due to 0 cabin air pressure differential, but speed
| of the plane isn't a relevant factor.
| uranium wrote:
| I carried a CO2 meter on a flight recently, to use CO2 as a
| proxy for COVID risk. The levels were quite high for the
| whole flight--over 1000 pretty much the whole time iirc and
| worse on the tarmac.
| c0pium wrote:
| How did you calibrate the meter for the changing
| temperature and pressure? Most CO2 meter designs are
| extremely sensitive to pressure changes.
| squigz wrote:
| Could you elaborate on what you mean by "novel social
| conditions"?
| pc86 wrote:
| ASD diagnoses have skyrocketed in the past few decades
| (years?) with no clear cause. I'm just old enough to remember
| a childhood without cell phones - we didn't have a computer
| in my house until middle school but we were lower income than
| most of my friends - and people are definitely inside more
| and outside less than they were when I was 8 or 9 years old.
|
| It seems like a plausible theory.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Lots of other things have changed, including, people are
| having kids older (known correlate), the DSM definition
| changed, and the general awareness has radically increased.
| jplona wrote:
| I've always understood the increase in diagnoses to be more
| about increased awareness than about a change in human
| behavior.
|
| E.g. it looks like autism wasn't defined as a spectrum in
| the DSM until either 1994 or 2000:
| https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/evolution-autism-
| diagnosis....
| Cheer2171 wrote:
| When left handedness was seen as a disorder and students
| who used their left hand were beaten, rates of this
| disorder were a few percent. When the idea of left
| handedness became mainstream, rates skyrocketed and we know
| the base rate is about 10%.
|
| Homosexuality was considered a disorder in the DSM until
| 1974. Self-reported rates of homosexuality have skyrocketed
| since then. Most likely explanation is that the true base
| rate has not changed, just society's measurement of it.
|
| Children with ASD in prior generations were labeled as
| delinquent, troublemakers, retarded, or were abandoned by
| their parents and communities.
| naasking wrote:
| You _think_. Let 's be clear about what's a hypothesis
| vs. a confirmed fact.
| hilux wrote:
| I wrote a response that argues against your hypothesis,
| and then I realized ... "do I really _know_ what I 'm
| saying? Or are these my preconceptions and biases?"
|
| > and we know the base rate is about 10%.
|
| Sinister.
|
| I think it would be cool to be left-handed in a country
| where the language is written from right to left.
| smolder wrote:
| It doesn't seem plausible to me, based on my anecdotal
| experience with an ASD child who played in the woods all
| the time.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Correlation, as the saying goes, does not prove causation.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| Vasopressin is tied to single-cell acid/base regulation, on
| that chromosome 3/7/17/X major axis.
| Khelavaster wrote:
| This makes a LOT of sense explaining how wearing a mask
| throughout the day observably changes behavior!!
| electrondood wrote:
| If elevated CO2 increases vasopressin, and if increased
| vasopressin drives symptoms of autism, then wouldn't we see a
| large population with autism symptoms in the Midwest or
| anywhere that people are indoors all winter?
| colloydi wrote:
| I think it's vasopressin _deficiency_ that is claimed to
| drive those symptoms.
| callalex wrote:
| My nephew is on the spectrum (fairly severely). His mother and
| father are obsessed with air quality and used filtration and
| forced ERVs for the entire pregnancy and upbringing. Please do
| not make such strong medical claims without any scientific
| backing, it is quite harmful to kids with autism and their
| parents who are already overwhelmed with quackery.
| waihtis wrote:
| the guy wrote a book on it. so far his evidence far exceeds
| yours, which is none.
| atahanacar wrote:
| I can write a book on anything and still have no evidence
| or idea what I'm talking about.
| grumpy-de-sre wrote:
| Now that's some serendipitous reading.
|
| I've been on the hunt for possible mechanisms (for further study)
| as to why last year after trying an SSRI (escitalopram), to treat
| an anxiety disorder co-morbid to my ASD, that I ended up in the
| hospital in a hypertensive crisis. Was an all around terrible
| experience and I hope one day I can figure out WTF happened to
| me.
|
| Interestingly the BP rise seemed to be mostly diastolic driven
| and I had crazy excessive urination which made me think about
| ADH/aldosterone/etc. Seeing ADH is potentially linked to ASD
| definitely catches my attention! Some of the alternative theories
| are, I am a MAO-A knockout (unlikely because of lack of
| intellectual disability), or possess a hyperfunctional SERT (also
| linked to ASD).
|
| Really excited for the results of the whole genome sequencing I
| ordered to arrive.
| xhevahir wrote:
| I was a guinea pig in a clinical trial for a drug that was meant
| to help with social symptoms of autism, the mechanism of which
| had something to with vasopressin (I don't know the details):
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9260643/ .
|
| It didn't do anything for me and the study got cancelled after
| I'd been taking the drug for some months.
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