[HN Gopher] Migration out of Africa may have been driven by firs...
___________________________________________________________________
Migration out of Africa may have been driven by first glaciation of
Pleistocene
Author : wglb
Score : 59 points
Date : 2024-03-18 13:59 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (phys.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (phys.org)
| alcover wrote:
| I wonder which routes were opened by this. Gibraltar ? Tunisia ->
| Sicilly -> Italy ?
|
| In any case the Levant was always an out.
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| You might like this YT video about the refilling of the Med...
|
| _The MEGAFLOOD that brutally filled the Mediterranean in
| months_
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RSPgIcnRN0
|
| The Med was created by long-term tectonic forces, which closed
| the sea at Gibraltar, about 7 million years ago. The whole
| thing dried out, leaving salt deposits on the lowest dusty
| plains (like Great Salt Lake, Dead Sea, Aral Sea today). Enough
| dust, dirt and seasonal river inflow, covered the salt in
| sedimentary layers.....
|
| About 6 million years ago, Gibraltar was breached by rising sea
| levels, and flooded the Balearic (W. Med) basin, up to the line
| Italy-Sicily-Tunisia.
|
| Very shortly afterwards (months < 2 years) the water breached
| the high ground immediately south of Sicily, creating the
| subsea Noto Canyon, and filling the eastern Med.
|
| P.S. Interesting final comment - the Black Sea was probably
| _not_ filled by a similar dramatic flood through the Bosphorus.
| Alluvial structures and fans in the Black Sea floor, show that
| it silted up from the north, and almost certainly overflowed
| the Bosphorus from the north, which is why the Bosphorus is
| relatively narrow - not the whole Med carving wide straits, but
| a freshwater trickle out from the silted Black Sea.
|
| P.P.S. Also note this contradicts some imagined historical
| basis for the Gilgamesh and Biblical floods being in the Black
| Sea (in the direction of what is now called Mt. Ararat). Those
| tales are much more likely to refer to Mesopotamian floods of
| the Tigris or Euphrates, perhaps triggered by breaching of
| earthquake-induced rockslides that temporarily blocked one of
| the rivers. We can now date and locate a specific episode like
| this in ancient China 4,000 years ago:
|
| https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/china-yel...
| blueflow wrote:
| Avoid using clickbaity YT videos as source, they are
| entertainment and not reliable.
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| I did say _like_ not _believe._
|
| Specific errors?
|
| Counter references?
| blueflow wrote:
| > Counter references?
|
| Bold. You presented no citable references, either.
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| I summarized some factual statements - any of them wrong?
| blueflow wrote:
| Why is the burden on me? Are any of them right?
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
| blueflow wrote:
| Thats better. If you want go get even better, scroll down
| to the "References" section and follow from there to the
| primary sources. Wikipedia alone is okay-ish but is often
| faulty because it accepts journalistic pieces (including
| some YT videos) as source.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| That's kind of like saying the internet is not reliable.
| Don't post links. Ok. So now what?
|
| Only studies, only peer-reviewed studies?
|
| Only peer-reviewed studies published by qualified sources?
|
| Only videos based on peer-reviewed studies published by
| approved sources, that have passed a committees on the non-
| biased use of artistic representations of special effects
| in entertainingly but scientifically accurate facts?
|
| This whole, nothing is real, there is no truth, is really
| out of control.
| blueflow wrote:
| No its not. You are making a bad strawman.
|
| YT content creators are financially incentivized to
| exaggerate things to generate user engagement. This is a
| conflict of interests.
|
| A good source would be something that has its own sources
| cited or directly comes with evidence.
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| That might be an appropriate threshold for Wikipedia, but
| not for HN.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| "financially incentivized" -> Welcome to the world.
|
| You can search HN and find plenty of arguments that
| scientific reporting by all major journals are biased and
| no longer factual and are just clickbait.
|
| Researchers have 'clickbait' studies because they are
| "financially incentivized" to get funding.
|
| You are drawing the line at YouTube, others draw the line
| at CNN, others draw the line at freaking 'Nature'.
|
| Now AI is generating scientific papers, I think we should
| be worried about how we determine 'factual' sources
| across the board.
| blueflow wrote:
| That argumentation does not work out - arguing that
| "proper science" is not much better does not make that YT
| video any more reliable.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| Not 'science', our reporting of science.
|
| We no longer have trusted sources for 'facts'.
|
| Lots of science is reported on YT and it is fine. You
| can't take a study in 'Nature' and say it is fine, but
| then if that study is reported in a video on YT, now it
| is in question. The video on the flood above was fine,
| there was nothing incorrect in it, why is it 'wrong' by
| being on YT?
|
| Maybe a % of garbage rating? But who does the judging?
| alcover wrote:
| Thank you. I fail to grasp your P.S. in relation to the
| Levant passage ?
| qwertyuiop_ wrote:
| Are there popular competing theories like
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21589761_The_Multir... ?
| CSMastermind wrote:
| This paper seems to be referencing the migration of Homo
| Erectus which occurred earlier and is generally agreed upon
| (though the specifics are still widely debated, thus the
| paper).
|
| Multiregional Evolution posits that modern Humans evolved
| directly from these distributed pockets of Homo Erectus, while
| the competing Out of Africa theory suggests that anatomically
| modern humans evolved once in Africa and then spread to the
| rest of the world, outcompeting the prior hominoid species as
| they went.
|
| My understanding is that the MRE hypothesis was largely
| discarded in favor of Out of Africa based on genetic data in
| the early 00s. Studies show that all humans share mitochondrial
| DNA (mtDNA), Y-chromosome DNA, and autosomal DNA ancestors
| which is not what you'd expect if humans evolved separately
| multiple times.
|
| The big compromise of the model which has emerged in recent
| years is Out of Africa with Admixture. Basically saying that
| Homo Sapiens didn't just outcompete other local hominoid
| branches but interbred with them to a meaningful extent. This
| was originally not well supported but there's a growing body of
| work to support it and I believe the academic community is
| coming around. You see this most strongly with Neanderthals in
| Europe, for instance.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| There's no compromise model. Admixture with archaic hominins
| is widely accepted these days, but it's simply a small
| asterisk on top of OOA for essentially everyone outside China
| (where MRE remains popular).
| CSMastermind wrote:
| My understanding is that there were multiple waves of migration
| out of Africa, the first being around 2 million years ago.
|
| The first waves were not of anatomically modern humans but Homo
| erectus and its contemporaries up into modern Georgia, then East
| into China, then eventually into Indonesia.
|
| Then around 1 million years later, there was another migration of
| Homo erectus out into Southeast Asia along the coast through
| India and eventually into Vietnam and Malaysia.
|
| This second migration seems to be what the paper is referencing
| and definitely the one that, at least 10 years ago, the
| anthropology community had the least confidence in. My
| understanding, again dated by a decade now, is that it was
| uncertain if hominoids entered Europe at that point or not.
|
| Neanderthals left Africa 500,000 years later into Europe while
| Denisovans left at the same time into Asia ending up concentrated
| in Serbia.
|
| Modern Humans don't show up until another 400,000 years after
| that (around 100,000 years ago) and don't leave Africa until
| 70,000 years ago. They also left Africa in multiple waves with 5
| main ones spreading out across the globe.
| KoftaBob wrote:
| > They also left Africa in multiple waves with 5 main ones
| spreading out across the globe.
|
| Where can I learn more about these 5 waves?
| defrost wrote:
| The number of waves and the granulation of waves isn't set in
| stone as such; there's a pretty decent broad view from afar
| regarding early human, and a great deal of finer detail still
| up for debate.
|
| Reading through
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations
|
| top to bottom will give a good enough first overview and an
| idea of where uncertainly lies and references to chase for
| further debate.
|
| Eg: Currently there's some hot debate on whether parts of the
| "coastal migration" to Australasia took place over inland
| routes within South East Asia - that's a matter of old coast
| lines at the time, inland cave shelters with datable bones,
| and a sparse game of chronological joind the estimated dots
| in space and time - it gets technical.
| mihaic wrote:
| Who We Are and How We Got Here by David Reich is I think a
| great book if you're interested in human migrations.
| prawn wrote:
| I always liked this map that helped convey the possible
| pathways that spread humans from the main wave: https://en.wi
| kipedia.org/wiki/File:World_map_of_prehistoric_...
| Cacti wrote:
| Such a wonderful projection.
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| One useful page that references the image:
|
| https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ancient_History/Human_Evoluti
| o...
| verisimi wrote:
| > Where can I learn more about these 5 waves?
|
| You simply go back 2 million years and verify it yourself.
|
| Alternatively, read it on wikipedia.
| smnc wrote:
| > while Denisovans left at the same time into Asia ending up
| concentrated in Serbia.
|
| You probably meant to write Siberia.
| CSMastermind wrote:
| I did! Thank you.
| lkrubner wrote:
| "Neanderthals left Africa 500,000 years later into Europe while
| Denisovans left at the same time"
|
| For most of the past 25 years there was a theory that
| Neanderthals and Denisovans were descended from Homo
| Heidelbergensis, in which case Neanderthals and Denisovans
| probably evolved in Europe or the Middle East. The oldest known
| Homo Heidelbergensis is maybe 1 millions years old and most of
| the early Homo Heidelbergensis were found in Europe, so it is
| assumed that Homo Heidelbergensis evolved in Europe.
|
| Recently, many have argued that Neanderthals and Denisovans
| were not descended from Homo Heidelbergensis, but instead from
| some other species of humans that has not yet been discovered.
| But it remains likely that Neanderthals and Denisovans evolved
| outside of Africa.
| dghughes wrote:
| I can understand why ancient people would migrate west or east
| since the sun movement; rise or set would draw them there. What
| would spur people to move north or south other than hunting
| animals? If animals I'd expect north for a bit then south again
| (or vice versa below the equator).
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| I think my favorite strange factoid of human migration, is that
| Madagascar was (majority) settled from Borneo, not from Africa.
|
| https://theconversation.com/how-the-banjar-people-of-borneo-...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Madagascar
|
| includes the nice map:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Madagascar#/media/F...
| BSOhealth wrote:
| Another interesting way to headline this is, Madagascar was the
| last place on earth to be settled, despite being right next to
| the first
| dagoodnews wrote:
| > Madagascar was the last place on earth to be settled
|
| I believe that honor belongs to antarctica.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Antarctica
| mikhailfranco wrote:
| Apart from Antarctica - New Zealand seems to be the last
| large landmass to be settled in 1200 AD (see map linked
| above).
|
| But even in NZ, there are some inconclusive claims of
| previous civilization. The gov has banned access and
| excavations to verify or refute the claims. One example:
|
| https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-
| oceania/kaima...
| lupusreal wrote:
| Kind of looks natural to me, and if there were a
| civilization that made one wall like this I'd expect a lot
| more walls like it. That said, it seems worth
| investigating. Why would the New Zealand government want it
| covered up?
| willmadden wrote:
| The honest interpretation of DNA evidence is that Cro-Magnon man
| mixed with the Neanderthals and Denisovans and then likely
| migrated into Africa, not out of it.
| lebean wrote:
| And today it's driven by bad policy. Heyoo!
| misja111 wrote:
| If temperatures dropped during the onset of the Pleistocene. Then
| why would humans have migrated away from Africa to Europe? It
| seems to me that in Europe it would be even more cold.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| If human populations expanded at a slow rate of 20 miles per 100
| years, then from 1.1 million to 0.9 million years ago (200,000
| years) they would have travelled 40,000 miles.
|
| This is indeed migration, but not as we think of it today. Such
| migrations could have been blocked by oceans or high mountains,
| and were essentially like animal migrations.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-03-19 23:02 UTC)