[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How to change jobs with almost no interviewi...
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Ask HN: How to change jobs with almost no interviewing experience?
I'm in my first job out of school, and looking for a new ML job. I
gathered a lot of offers that interest me. The thing is, I've
never gotten much interview experience. I got that job through a
very weak selection process with basically no testing, the real
test was an internship and then a trial period. I don't know what
interviewers expect (I'm looking for machine learning jobs), or how
to practice it. The first interviews I take, I'll probably bomb.
Is the best way just to start with positions I'm not that
interested in and bomb them for practice, buy a book or two about
ML interviews and go through exercises, or do more side projects?
I'd like to have an offer that I can accept in the next few months.
I can take time off to practice if needed.
Author : Dejobism
Score : 40 points
Date : 2024-03-18 07:31 UTC (15 hours ago)
| standfest wrote:
| Here are my 2C/: Leverage platforms that offer mock technical
| interviews (e.g., Pramp, Interviewing.io, probably there are
| others too). This approach lets you simulate the interview
| experience in a risk-free environment, getting you accustomed to
| the format and the pressure. It's crucial to receive feedback,
| and these platforms pair you with industry professionals who can
| provide just that. This method is effective because it targets
| your interview skills directly, allows for rapid iteration based
| on feedback, and builds your confidence in a more controlled
| setting than actual interviews.
|
| Aside from just technical skills, these mock interviews can help
| you articulate your thought process clearly, which is often as
| important as the solutions themselves in ML roles. Remember, it's
| not just about getting the right answer, but also showing how you
| approach problems.
|
| A side note based on a pattern I've observed so far: candidates
| who practice like this tend to perform better not just in
| technical assessments but also in explaining their past projects
| and teamwork experiences, which are equally critical parts of the
| interview process.
|
| Hope this helps. Dive in, get that feedback, and refine your
| approach. Good luck!
| userabchn wrote:
| Before paying for mock interviews, it might be a good idea to
| first get practice with something like
| https://grow.google/certificates/interview-warmup/
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| If you want to get better at something, do that thing
| deliberately. So if you want t get better at interviewing, go on
| interviews. At the very least it will help you get more
| comfortable doing them, which means you present better.
|
| But don't interview for jobs you don't want or it is a total
| waste of time for all concerned. It can't be that hard to find
| jobs you'd like, so interview for those, even if you don't have a
| hope of getting them.
| cyrialize wrote:
| I'm a big fan of the book "The Tech Resume Inside Out"[0], it may
| be helpful to you.
|
| The best thing I learned from the book was that for some
| positions, interviewers weigh your experience more heavily than
| your side projects.
|
| This, like all advice on this topic, highly depends on the
| company, the individuals interviewing, and your side projects.
|
| I typically think of it this way.
|
| When you are fresh out of college you've had little to no
| professional experience - the most you've had is probably an
| internship. For an employer to hire you, they'll probably
| evaluate your internships, school work, and personal projects.
| It's evidence of your knowledge and how well you'll fit into a
| role.
|
| After your first job - it's much different. Employers care much
| more about your experience, because you've worked within
| scenarios that you'll work in at their company. With fresh
| graduates, it would be unfair to evaluate them on years of
| working experience - because they won't have any - which is how
| personal projects come into play.
|
| An employer will want to hear more about your experience at X
| company, because you've worked on things that have users, scale,
| and issues that come with all of that and more - which personal
| projects sometimes do not have.
|
| That being said, personal projects can matter more if: 1) You are
| changing tech entirely, so you have a project to act as evidence
| of your newly gained knowledge, 2) Your personal project is
| running somewhere and has users, and/or 3) you work on open
| source projects. There's probably many more reasons that I'm
| missing.
|
| I'm typing all this out because for me I weighed personal
| projects much too heavily. My first company had extremely
| outdated code and custom frameworks everywhere - I was afraid
| that my experience didn't mean anything. I kept on trying to find
| time to work on projects, and which led me to never try
| interviewing - because my projects were never done. Reading the
| book I suggested helped me to break out of this belief - and led
| me to find a new position.
|
| Aside from all that I've said - the other things you suggested
| are good: taking interviews as practice and going through
| interview exercises.
|
| Pramp[1], and other resources people have recommended here, are
| really good to practice with. That being said - the best practice
| is to be in an actual interview. I highly recommend finding
| companies that you aren't that interested in and interviewing
| there.
|
| You may find that you are much less nervous! Going into an
| interview not caring about the outcome and maybe even expecting
| to fail really calms the nerves. Additionally, if you pass the
| interview and find that you actually like the company - then more
| power to you. Accept the offer and cut your practice short.
|
| My final piece of advice - I know it is tempting to take time off
| to practice - but the best time to find a job is when you are
| employed. It's less nerve wracking knowing that you still have a
| way to make money if you fail the interview you are in.
|
| As I mentioned previously, this always depends. For example, if
| you're living with your parents rent-free and your expenses are
| really low - then it is up to you. For many other people, it
| could lead to situations where you are running out of funds, and
| now you have to take the first offer you get.
|
| [0]: https://thetechresume.com/
|
| [1]: https://www.pramp.com
| silent_cal wrote:
| If you understand machine learning well, you'll probably do well
| in the interview.
| softwaredoug wrote:
| Selling yourself IMO is a pretty distinct skill. I know great
| MLEs that suck at interviewing, and people who BS their way
| through interviews, sound great, then suck at the job.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I disagree.
|
| Especially in SWE interviews
|
| Interviewing, and engineering, in this case coding, are two
| different skills. There are people that are good at only one.
|
| It's wise if this person to seek advice on something they feel
| less confident and experienced at. This trait will swerve them
| well in their life.
| jebarker wrote:
| I would recommend trying to research what you can about the
| interview process for specific companies you're interested in. I
| interview for scientists and engineers for an ML research team
| but I know that my team (and company's) interviewing process is
| different to other similar companies. Also, don't neglect
| software engineering skills in preparation, industry ML is mostly
| software engineering.
| dcchambers wrote:
| The only way to get better at interviews is to _do interviews_.
|
| The best advice is to get as much practical, real interview
| practice at companies that aren't your #1 choice before you go
| interview for your dream job.
| toast0 wrote:
| Is your current employer hiring? Are you / can you be involved in
| that process?
|
| Your employer is only one company, but understanding its side of
| interviewing can help guide you in how to present yourself as a
| candidate.
|
| Also, yeah, the best way is practice and self-reflection. And the
| best way to get practice is to do it, so submit resumes to jobs
| you aren't sure you really want rather than only your OMG I want
| this job. This gives you a chance to do some negotiation practice
| too, and maybe have some offers to play against.
| seanhunter wrote:
| As a hiring manager, there are a few very basic things that any
| inexperienced candidate can do to radically improve their chances
| and these have been true in all the institutions where I've been
| a hiring manager (from big corporates, investment banks, tiny
| startups, software companies, media companies, whatever):
|
| 1) Do some research. Know what the company does and some of the
| basics of how their industry functions. Try to know where the
| money is coming from etc. This base understanding will help you
| not to come across as a total liability.
|
| 2) Do some research (2). Read and reread the job description or
| if unclear give the recruiter a call and ask them what they are
| really looking for. The job spec should have some info in there
| and it would be good to decompose it a bit.
|
| - Stuff they will expect you to know. eg "We're looking for a
| pytorch dev...". OK you need to know python and pytorch. Yes if
| you've been doing tensorflow still apply, but play around with
| pytorch a bit going into the interview so you know a bit about
| the differences. Say you've mainly done tensorflow but you've
| been using pytorch and it's been faster/slower/more
| ergonomic/whatever. Try to be positive though - Noone wants to
| hire someone who is going to spend all their time whining about
| the tech stack.
|
| - Stuff they will expect you to be able to do. eg "...to help
| optimise our data ingest and embedding thingummybobber." OK so as
| well as basic ML dev stuff I'm going to need to know a bit about
| data wrangling. Maybe brush up on sql and a few other things to
| do with making data pipelines, cleaning data etc. Or maybe it
| mentions training so reread your stuff about gradient descent,
| regularization etc. You don't need to be the world's expert but
| you want to give yourself the best possible shot.
|
| - Characteristics that are desireable in some way. eg "... The
| ideal candidate will have some knowledge or experience of ML as
| it is applied to customer-facing yadda yadda". OK so scratch your
| head about what you've done that you can say relates to this etc.
|
| Ideally for each of the main things you have thought through how
| this applies to you in some way and have some bullet points in
| your head ready to go if you get asked.
|
| For a first job they aren't expecting you to know everything so
| the main things they'll be looking for is your potential. Do you
| seem smart? Are you going to be able to learn quickly? Are you
| likely to be able to get shit done? etc. Try to think through
| what you might be able to say that is evidence of each of those
| things. Smart: think of something (even unrelated) that you have
| learned _deeply_. Eg you became the resident expert in regexes in
| your computer lab at school or you got totally into abstract
| algebra and nerded out on that or whatever. Quick study: When you
| went to school maybe you only had done Javascript dev and then
| you had to pick up python or vice versa. Some evidence that you
| can learn and adapt.
|
| You can really help yourself a lot if you think about these
| things so you have something at your fingertips when they ask you
| a question about how you're going to be able to learn.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Just do some interviews. Like 10. You'll see what you are good at
| and what you are not good at. Focus on trying to improve what you
| are not very good at. You might be okay at interviewing or you
| might be really bad. You wont know until you do some interview.
|
| You can also do something like interviewing.io or just have a
| friend interview you to get an idea without actually having to
| interview with a company.
| kinos wrote:
| accept every recruiter that contacts you on LinkedIn the moment
| you click "available". Don't filter too strongly, just accept
| everything that won't be a hassle to try the interview at. Then
| just practice through real interviews.
| specproc wrote:
| I'm European and in a very particular sector, so YMMV, but some
| thoughts:
|
| I do a bunch of interviews, just finished one about an hour ago
| actually. If you've gotten as far as an interview, great stuff!
| Most CVs go right in the bin.
|
| There'll be a few things on your application that caught the
| recruiters' eye. No-one wants to waste time interviewing people
| who they don't think can do the job, on paper at least. You're
| doing well.
|
| When I'm interviewing, I have three broad questions in my head,
| in pretty much this order of importance.
|
| a) What is this person going to be like to work with?
|
| b) What can they do that we / the other candidates can't?
|
| c) Was this person honest on their CV?
|
| On a) People want to work with nice people. At least one of the
| interviewers will be spending a lot of time with you. It depends
| on the role and company, but particularly with less experienced
| candidates where the need for some learning is a given, I'd much
| rather have someone nice than a highly-skilled arsehole.
|
| You want to be relaxed and confident. Tough without experience,
| but don't sweat it, I have a practical suggestion below. Also
| smile and make some eye contact, and you're allowed to have a
| light bit of humour about you. You can use that bit before things
| get rolling properly for a _very_ light bit of banter. Get things
| off to a good start.
|
| In terms of getting that confidence? Have you got experienced,
| professional older friends, relatives? In the sector is best, but
| not essential. You can ask them to help you out with a mock
| interview. I've done a bunch for friends and family over the
| years, it seems to help folks get over your exact concern. Bit of
| roleplay, they'll need to do a bit of research themselves (e.g,
| on technical questions) so it'll need to be someone who's will to
| go out their way for you.
|
| On b) side-projects are good here as you suggest, particularly
| when you're young. You always want to be able to give examples of
| things you've done (check out the STAR method), and more projects
| means more to talk about and more chance you're bringing that X
| factor to the table.
|
| Right now if you're into ML, others in the thread may disagree,
| but maybe give an LLM project a go? I'm recruiting for an ML-
| adjacent role (vis/analyst) right now, we're having ML
| practitioners apply, and only one or two candidates have any
| experience with LLMs. Total differentiator. We're too busy to
| learn stuff, would much rather get someone in whose time isn't
| yet eaten up to check it out. Have a head start.
|
| c) Actually pretty rare and pretty easy to spot most of the time.
| I hope that's not you, I spent a while on this ;-)
|
| Good luck!
| Jemaclus wrote:
| Start interviewing! Get experience! Don't expect every interview
| to result in an offer. Take each interview as practice. Honestly,
| the first 10 companies you interview with, you should fully
| expect rejection, so don't go after your dream jobs immediately.
|
| Interviewing is a skill just like ML and coding are skills, and
| you need to practice to do it well. And the best way to
| practice... is to do it!
|
| And frankly? Everyone should be interviewing on a regular basis,
| anyway. Always keep an eye on the market and be ready to jump if
| something better comes along.
|
| Best of luck!
| brailsafe wrote:
| _looks at the market for coding skills_ "hmm... guess I'll
| interview at McDonald's for practice" ;)
| iExploder wrote:
| Time to get a real job bro.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Just go for the job you want. Don't burn other companies and
| waste their time to exercise your experience.
|
| Your limited experience - internship as work history - will
| already allude to the fact that you don't have interview
| experience. You can address that up front during the recruiting
| process.
| battery_glasses wrote:
| I couldn't disagree more. If possible, always interview with
| companies you really want to work at later in the process (its
| often not possible, but this should be plan A.)
| whalesalad wrote:
| Interviewing has a cost to the employer as well. If you are
| doing it just to practice with zero intention of actually
| working there, that is dishonest and disingenuous.
| fullstick wrote:
| I'd argue it's hard to know whether you want to work at a
| company unless you interview. The cost of interviewing is
| miniscule compared to the cost of hiring.
|
| I agree, always be courteous and professional, but you have
| to interview when given the opportunity. The wooing and
| interview goes both ways.
| aleksiy123 wrote:
| Agree with this.
|
| More practice means better. And the best practice is real
| interviewing.
|
| Also don't take the first offer given unless its one of your
| goal companies.
|
| Keep interviewing for a bit more like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem.
| Dejobism wrote:
| > Your limited experience - internship as work history - will
| already allude to the fact that you don't have interview
| experience.
|
| Sorry if my OP wasn't clear, I'm in a real, permanent job. I
| meant that I was selected for that through my internship
| performance, the interview itself was very light. I guess your
| point still stands though.
|
| > Just go for the job you want. Don't burn other companies and
| waste their time to exercise your experience.
|
| I'd also like to avoid that. Thanks!
| recursivecaveat wrote:
| Ask to shadow interviews at your current workplace. You will get
| a lot of exposure to the process, and will have access to actual
| feedback about what works and what doesn't (not something a
| company almost ever provides to an interviewee).
| youseftaz wrote:
| - I don't know if this will work well to you, but try to find
| someone in the same field to make some Mockup interview [paid]
| try more than 1 interview with different people. - Try to know
| the hiring process of the Corp. Comp. etc. you interested in
| through asking questions in LinkedIn or even look up through
| Glassdoor App
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