[HN Gopher] Low-tech Magazine underscores the potential of past ...
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       Low-tech Magazine underscores the potential of past technologies
        
       Author : logtempo
       Score  : 203 points
       Date   : 2024-03-17 00:56 UTC (22 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (solar.lowtechmagazine.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (solar.lowtechmagazine.com)
        
       | logtempo wrote:
       | Inspired by recent post about how bloated is the www today.
        
         | schiffern wrote:
         | For historians: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39729057
        
       | aaron695 wrote:
       | > Low-tech Magazine underscores the potential of past
       | technologies
       | 
       | No, it's a romantic view of the past that ignores all the short
       | comings.
       | 
       | Of course past tech, or more accurately past ideas, combined with
       | todays technology can come back and be popular.
       | 
       | Using high tech computers for material design, an internet system
       | joining 8 billion people (3 billion by one degree), and a higher
       | regard for life[1] we have managed to get 100 year old tech,
       | solar panels and batteries working for remote water pumping for
       | instance. (Not a great example since windmills are older)
       | 
       | Real Low-tech is harder but fun. Why kick a ball around a field,
       | that's stupid, but it's fun. Fruit walls are stupid, but fun and
       | look cool, why be ultra rich if you can't build a few fruit walls
       | and kick a ball around.
       | 
       | Just don't confuse eating cake for what the real poor should be
       | doing.
       | 
       | [1] Windmill maintenance is too expensive because of OH&S
        
         | atoav wrote:
         | > No, it's a romantic view of the past that ignores all the
         | short comings.
         | 
         | Doing/having/using less isn't automatically attractive. If we
         | want people to embrace a more sustainable lifestyle a certain
         | healthy amount of nostalgia and romanticism can help selling
         | it.
         | 
         | These (mental) images are not without power and reason -- we
         | live in a consumer society where everybody is bombarded with
         | images of desire, images that are usually about buying and
         | owning things or traveling somewhere. I don't think you can win
         | against that kind of indoctrination by not using images at all.
         | 
         | And not all of the lowtech stuff there is just flashy
         | romanticism. E.g. the article about balcony solar without
         | battery makes sense. Now what is low tech will always be graded
         | on a curve. Compared to no electronics that is pretty high
         | tech. Your ball is pretty high tech compared to just playing
         | with conifer cones.
         | 
         | As a kid that grew up in the alps we usually played with what
         | was availabe wherever we went and that was a lot of fun. But
         | how do you make that attractive to people who grew up in places
         | where they wouldn't even let you walk home alone after school
         | and put a tablet in your paws as soon as you opened your mouth?
         | The answer is romanticisim.
        
       | tivert wrote:
       | The dithered images make me feel like I'm reading something from
       | 1994, which is not a bad thing.
        
         | pjerem wrote:
         | What's cool is that they dithered the images to voluntarily to
         | make them as small (in bytes) as possible.
         | 
         | So it's visual nice but it also is coherent with their
         | editorial and with the choice to host on a solar powered
         | server.
         | 
         | Everything is explained here :
         | 
         | https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/about/the-solar-website/#h...
         | 
         | I think that just this set of choices transforms this somehow
         | classic blog into something special. Maybe some sort of
         | technical art. Somehow it's the living proof that in a low-tech
         | world, we don't have to ditch the internet, just transform it.
        
           | kibwen wrote:
           | I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and specifically
           | I'm wondering if we couldn't do even better if we had custom
           | file formats specifically for two-bit grayscale images (or
           | heck, even one-bit black-and-white images). For example, the
           | OP is using PNG, but I'm wondering if there would be a
           | material difference if, say, you had a format that didn't
           | assume that you ultimately wanted 3 or 4 bytes per pixel. But
           | maybe compression makes this moot?
        
       | Dansvidania wrote:
       | Frugality is a quality on which we have collectively given up in
       | the technology field, sadly.
        
         | ornornor wrote:
         | And this habit is what keeps us on the treadmill of work work
         | work because we can't afford to stop: we think we need all this
         | crap and the only way to get it (and replace it every 3 years)
         | is to work more.
        
           | Ylpertnodi wrote:
           | I don't own much, but I do gotta pay a mortgage for where I
           | don't keep it.
        
             | ornornor wrote:
             | Sure, I was saying you can live on a third of a paycheck or
             | you can live on 150% of a paycheck. One gives you quite a
             | bit more freedom than the other (numbers arbitrary but you
             | hopefully get the idea)
        
               | chefandy wrote:
               | People say you can live on 1/3 of a paycheck but is that
               | really true? No matter how clever I got with my cuts, I
               | could never trim that much without losing either the
               | payment information or signature line.
        
               | ornornor wrote:
               | Like I said, actual numbers vary I was just illustrating
               | with an arbitrary 1/3 and 150%. Generally speaking, tend
               | towards 0 rather than infinity.
        
               | Dansvidania wrote:
               | noice
        
               | dghlsakjg wrote:
               | Don't start at the edges, start at the center
        
         | mouzogu wrote:
         | sustainability, degrowth, frugality...these are choices of
         | privilege.
         | 
         | you can only call for less when you have more than enough.
         | 
         | if you're poor you are already living in degrowth and
         | frugality.
        
           | osmsucks wrote:
           | Yes? That's the whole point.
           | 
           | 100 years ago it was unthinkable for common people to eat red
           | meat every day, they just couldn't afford it. Today, we are
           | privileged enough that we can afford to do so, but just
           | because we can it doesn't mean we should. It's not good for
           | you.
           | 
           | Same happens in the tech world: we can afford to buy new tech
           | devices to keep up with the bloat that inevitably envelops
           | most things, but should we?
        
           | hkt wrote:
           | Degrowth is an economic doctrine, not a way of life. One part
           | of it is the idea that there is enough wealth to go round,
           | even within planetary resource boundaries, and that
           | distributing it is more important than growing it. It is a
           | very very valid criticism of the current system, but it isn't
           | a critique or a choice of individuals, it is about political
           | economy.
        
           | logtempo wrote:
           | sure, the question"If I can, should I?" it suppose that you
           | have a choice. If you have no choice, there is no questions
           | :D
           | 
           | that said, a good counter-exemple is wood stove efficiency.
           | There are simple design that are more efficient than a
           | firecamp, and very cheap. In some cases you can do a lot more
           | with a little bit of more(sometimes less), so it's worth it.
        
         | brohee wrote:
         | In the IoT world you often still count bytes and milliwatts.
         | Less so when plugged to the grid.
        
       | tazu wrote:
       | Anyone else driven crazy by the opacity _decreasing_ on hover? I
       | feel like it should be the opposite...
        
       | Razengan wrote:
       | > _Low-tech_
       | 
       | > _" How to build a small solar power system"_
       | 
       | The definition of "low tech" clearly varies over time :)
        
       | navane wrote:
       | What a beautiful website on mobile. The font, the colors, the
       | layout.
        
       | txutxu wrote:
       | Booting a modern laptop, something I do every day, is the anti-
       | low-tech paradigm.
       | 
       | Just my motherboard BIOS is 50348032 bits. And it doesn't provide
       | many options, I think the other way around, it hides many options
       | on purpose.
       | 
       | Then there is an i7 processor... a whole beast itself against
       | simplicity. With its Intel Management Engine, it's microcode
       | updates, etc.
       | 
       | Secure boot? UEFI? VT extensions? TPM? NFC? graphics
       | initialization?
       | 
       | OK, so far, we've code and material to fill the whole life of an
       | engineer, and we didn't reach still the OS bootloader.
       | 
       | Ah, the bootloader, who remembers lilo... here we go with grub.
       | Go read it's source code, and return back to explain me
       | everything that is in there... see you in 3 months only for this.
       | 
       | Here it goes, the kernel. A thing that normal users don't see or
       | touch. More than 30 Million of lines of code more. I won't talk
       | about complexity here, but this project can really say it's
       | "batteries included". The same you get an old obscure
       | filesystem/protocol nobody uses, than proc/mem/i-o/netowrk
       | schedulers for supercomputers. Blobs, firmware, more graphics
       | stuff, observability, wifi, storage, a whole word in itself and
       | everything comes up in microseconds.
       | 
       | There is such initram thingy, which is another "mini" (not mini
       | in lines of code) operative system. Busybox? xD look at that.
       | 
       | Now, here it comes... the low-tech king: systemd! our love-hated
       | init system (only init? well you already know).
       | 
       | Now, here we can start the operative system (which may not bee
       | too simple), we could be talking for years, of each of the micro-
       | components that help to launch the base OS services until you get
       | to the login page.
       | 
       | Depending on the distro... we're skipping a hell of complexity
       | (it's not the same the ps aux of an ubuntu desktop, than the ps
       | aux of a minimal system). Let's skip it, let's skip hundreds of
       | software components and phone home stuff.
       | 
       | The auth part, gives for a few years more of reading code, talk
       | about, skipping plugins and optional stuff.
       | 
       | Then you can get a window manager or a desktop environment (so a
       | week or some months of code more), running over Xorg (do you
       | think it's simple?) or Wayland (you can devote your life until
       | you own this part).
       | 
       | And now... let's launch a "web browser". I will stop here, we
       | won't finish if we go deep into the browser complexity.
       | 
       | Modern hardware, software and engineering, are a big ball of
       | snow. The more it advances, the bigger and out of control it
       | gets.
        
         | lambdaba wrote:
         | > The more it advances, the bigger and out of control it gets.
         | 
         | Yet my present computer can do far more than the one I had, say
         | 30 years ago, when things were "simpler".
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | I keep an old Thinkpad around running Windows XP. Its some
           | 512MHz CPU, so not really that fast. But: It boots faster,
           | the UI feels less sluggish, you can tell apart buttons from
           | inert text, and launching Age of Empires I and restarting my
           | savegame takes like 5 seconds.
           | 
           | I keep this Laptop as living proof that computers did indeed
           | get shittier.
        
             | hkt wrote:
             | I'm on a thinkpad x230t from over a decade ago, running
             | Linux. It is a bit less vintage than yours, but I can
             | confirm that for the princely sum of PS200 on ebay, I can
             | run a window manager and pretty much any software I want.
             | 
             | It replaced a PS1500 starbook, which stopped powering on
             | about a month after the warranty expired.
             | 
             | Not quite the same point as you, but I'll agree on
             | something: old hardware that lasts is miraculous.
        
             | nicolas_t wrote:
             | I remember when windows xp came out. It felt so slow on my
             | celeron 300 mhz (overclocked though) with a geforce 256,
             | sluggish to a point that I happily switched to gentoo. Of
             | course your Thinkpad most likely came late in the windows
             | xp lifecycle so it feels snappier but the user experience
             | when windows xp came out was anything but fast.
        
               | olyjohn wrote:
               | To be fair. Celerons were really terrible. I ran them for
               | a long time (even was running dual celerons on a board at
               | one point) and overclocked the crap out them. Then I
               | switched to an actual Pentium 3 chip and it blew them
               | away. Never went back.
        
               | tonyarkles wrote:
               | > even was running dual celerons
               | 
               | Another member of the ABIT BP6 club! My friends could not
               | believe that I could play Counterstrike and burn a CD at
               | the same time :D
        
             | p_l wrote:
             | Depends a lot on what you run.
             | 
             | Anything involving web? Uh.
             | 
             | A lot of things definitely got way faster though, they just
             | are things that neither switched to most inefficient
             | (computing wise) ways of doing it (Electron GUI) nor pay
             | the "high resolution" tax.
             | 
             | My first _own_ computer could hold the entire final
             | displayed framebuffer in less than 1MB. The display I use
             | right now requires a bit over 32.5 MB to do so, and switch
             | towards more and more hires raster bitmap as method of
             | drawing interfaces means it 's schlepping probably over
             | half a gigabyte every frame.
             | 
             | But things that don't need that? Even for python
             | development (not running jobs, interactive development) my
             | recent switch from Kaby Lake i5 to Zen4 resulted in
             | noticeable speedup. Despite the previous machine already
             | having NVMe SSDs etc.
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | The web being slow is an example of UI in general
               | becoming slow.
               | 
               | My experience over the years has been that UI frameworks
               | are _very fun to write_ but we 'd all be better off if
               | our managers said "no" to them -- vanilla HTML is _very_
               | fast, as is UIKit.
               | 
               | Likewise for development, while Interface Builder gets
               | flack for the file format making it hard to collaborate
               | or even to code review, actually using it to implement a
               | UI from the design team is fast and easy compared both to
               | UIKit in code and to SwiftUI (and SwiftUI is better than
               | some of the other programmatic UI frameworks I've seen,
               | though it also loses points for a WYSIWYG editor that
               | gives up if you look at the keyboard wrong).
        
               | p_l wrote:
               | The web is slow because it's used in ways that it's not
               | exactly designed for.
               | 
               | This means that even when you try your best, you can end
               | up with very complex code paths for doing things that
               | would be handled through simpler ways in "proper" GUI
               | framework.
               | 
               | It's not really a dig at browser engines - they are very
               | optimized. But they are very optimized because otherwise
               | it would be even more unbearably slow.
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | I'm not complaining about the browsers themselves either.
               | 
               | IIRC, almost every UI widget in iOS and Mac OS (even way
               | back to 68k) and VisualBasic and Java is a rectangular
               | interaction region, even if the appearance is circular.
               | 
               | A <div> with a background image and an on-click, on-
               | mouse-move etc. handlers, can replicate the look and
               | behaviour with _much_ lower complexity than even the
               | React _tutorials_ I 've done (I assume that React is even
               | more complex in production?)
               | 
               | Last tech conference I went to, there was a talk on how
               | to boost website performance by loading your JS in a
               | particular order -- at that point, I think you're better
               | off with a website being an img and <img> and <map> and
               | everything more than that being done on the server. Not
               | that this is a good idea, just less bad than having so
               | much JS you need to re-order it to keep load times down.
               | 
               | jQuery seems nice, from what little of it I've seen in
               | practice.
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | While that is true, most of the current complexity has
           | nothing to do with enabling the present computers to do far
           | more.
           | 
           | Most of the complexity is caused either by the need to
           | provide backward compatibility or by the fact that the many
           | parties who design the components of a computer had very
           | different ideas about which is the right way to design them
           | (so many compatibility layers are required) or by the fact
           | that the manufacturers insist on implementing various
           | additional features that are not really needed, because they
           | may be useful for them even if they are harmful for the final
           | owner of the computer.
           | 
           | Many of the most horrible features of the modern computers
           | have been caused by the fact that Microsoft could not be
           | bothered to implement in their operating systems certain
           | features whose right place was inside the OS and Intel has
           | kept piling workarounds over workarounds in their CPUs, one
           | more ugly than the other, like the System Management Mode and
           | the Management Engine.
        
         | npteljes wrote:
         | The system is the result of the structure and power
         | distribution of the entities that built it. Another compounding
         | factor is that I don't think any of the creators had
         | "simplicity" on the forefront, when building their respective
         | part of the system. So, yes, the end result is not simple.
         | 
         | As for reading the code or anything like that, I don't think I
         | would have managed even a C64, and that's, I think, way simpler
         | than the modern computer you described. So I've been lost for a
         | long time.
         | 
         | Life is just complex.
        
           | overtomanu wrote:
           | Yes, life is complex literally!!
           | 
           | Even our DNA has lot of "unused"/"dormant" code
        
             | inciampati wrote:
             | Not really, in that all parts of the DNA can and do
             | interact with proteins and lncRNA in the cell. Where in
             | code there can be truly unused portions which are _only_
             | copied, in the cell all bits are functional. The reason we
             | say they are unused /junk/dormant is that we have extremely
             | limited ability to observe the system in its totality.
        
               | dekhn wrote:
               | Nope, there's definitely junk that is non-functional.
        
         | 082349872349872 wrote:
         | > _Modern hardware, software and engineering, are a big ball of
         | snow. The more it advances, the bigger and out of control it
         | gets_
         | 
         | a sentiment already expressed in 1963!
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35851599
        
         | p_l wrote:
         | Honestly, I think a lot of the parts that people complain about
         | aren't actually as complex as they seem - but they are the
         | _surface visible_ parts. And lack of knowledge and nostalgia
         | glasses sometimes make people unaware of how complex things
         | _used_ to be.
         | 
         | A lot of underappreciated thing with boot firmware these days
         | is that what is presented to you as end user is absolutely not
         | connected to what options are actually possible. Also tons of
         | complex and quirky code just to get the CPU and memory to the
         | point of running other code. IIRC there's bits of code spanning
         | early CPU reset _and_ intel IME that are necessary to prevent
         | the CPU from destroying itself, at least on some models.
         | Similarly on AMD PSP.
         | 
         | Some of them will be disabled because the hw physically doesn't
         | support them, or can result in weird behaviour that isn't going
         | to be something you like, or effectively brick things.
         | 
         | Another part is that it allows real proper modularity of an
         | open platform, at least on the vendor side. Add a new device
         | that requires special driver? No longer you have to spend a
         | long time just to integrate a blob, there's a standard API/ABI
         | whether the driver is closed or open source. ACPI provides tons
         | of ways to just specify the details of where something is and
         | how to connect it. I love a lot about openpower, but PetitBoot
         | is effectively less open if only because there's no possibility
         | to use add-in card requiring drivers that wasn't already
         | compiled into flash. With UEFI it works.
         | 
         | UEFI is honestly in many ways less complex than previous
         | systems (no more hooking into tape drive boot sequence),
         | especially since there's much less that _needs_ to be in SMM
         | block except for things required by hw (an example: some CPUs
         | required SMM code for changing _certain_ power levels, because
         | the OS level API doesn 't expose the low-level details like
         | enforcing a synchronization point on all CPUs or low level
         | internal registers).
         | 
         | If you use UEFI, you also don't need to implement whole complex
         | (and IBM PC _incompatible_ ) craziness that is GRUB (or NTLDR
         | with its ARC firmware emulation, or non-UEFI WINLDR which
         | emulates chunk of UEFI...) - n.b. the last linux bootloader
         | that properly handled IBM PC compatibility was LILO if
         | installed in appropriate way (read: not how distros did it).
         | 
         | TPM and Secure Boot are reasonably easy parts of the whole
         | thing. NFC and smartcards are also things that are reasonable
         | for single engineer to grasp.
         | 
         | There's less visible, though some people remember about it,
         | complexity that is enforced on us by corporate interests - big
         | part of why AMD PSP is closed source is the same reason AMD was
         | unable to open source some of the HDMI code recently - both AMD
         | PSP and Intel IME are part of implementing "Secure Media Path",
         | aka DRM bullshit for MPAA (HDCP and its DisplayPort
         | equivalent). It's also why various DRM systems don't fully
         | support fully open systems (for example normal linux distros,
         | not ones that are built by vendor of a device with special
         | blobs)
         | 
         | Now, systemd I'll agree it takes a good idea but does with
         | horrible implementation, and that's from someone who gave in
         | and tries to use it fully (mainly because I have no time to
         | implement an alternative).
         | 
         | Wayland also makes in many ways life more complex than X11,
         | OTOH XFree86 legacy of being lowest common denominator
         | implementation even after reverting to X.Org means that people
         | felt stuck.
        
         | AndrewKemendo wrote:
         | Conway's law does not define a maximum size of a system.
         | 
         | It simply defines that the systems as measured reflect the
         | structure that created them.
         | 
         | If you look at the software ecosystem as a whole, it is
         | increasingly indivisible without the underlying structure,
         | because interface types have been totally monopolized - you
         | need a create a client-server REST/LAMP service with stateless
         | agents consuming services
         | 
         | That is to say if you wanted to build a technical service, but
         | that does not comply with existing trends in engineering then
         | you just don't exist
         | 
         | Technology is social it's not simply mechanical
         | 
         | Socially, we don't have holism as a goal. Cybernetics is
         | socialism according to academia and increasing specialization
         | means that nobody can fully understand the whole thing.
         | 
         | Because nobody can understand the whole thing there are
         | opportunities for fragility, and basically stuff to break
         | catastrophically with nobody knowing how to fix it.
         | 
         | I anticipate the next couple decades look like a lot of broken
         | stuff that people rely on, that increasingly nobody knows how
         | to fix
        
         | roughly wrote:
         | > The more it advances, the bigger and out of control it gets.
         | 
         | This is largely due to path dependency - there's a required
         | amount of "bigness" and complexity to do the things we want to
         | do, but it's substantially lower than the amount we have,
         | because we're not starting from zero, we're building on what we
         | already have. You can see this everywhere - telecom lines
         | follow old train lines, keyboard layouts mirror old typewriter
         | layouts, desktop file system layouts mirror old mainframe
         | layouts.
         | 
         | It mirrors evolution in that way - the path taken is the
         | cheapest path from the current location, not the ideal path,
         | which is why a giraffe has the same number of bones in its neck
         | as you do.
         | 
         | I've actually been interested recently in what it would look
         | like to have a truly modern software & hardware stack built
         | from the ground up for modern computing - I feel like there
         | were attempts at this in the 90s (BeOS comes to mind), but even
         | something like ChromeOS was basically Linux under the hood. It
         | feels like the industry's decided what we have is Good Enough,
         | and that's a bit of a shame, because you're right, it's really
         | quite a ball of spaghetti.
        
           | BobbyTables2 wrote:
           | A minimal Alpine Linux install is what -- 10MB?
           | 
           | A minimal Debian/AlmaLinux install is closer to 1G.
           | 
           | What did we gain with 100X the space, larger attack surface,
           | and configuration complexity?
           | 
           | Even hardware is this way...
           | 
           | Look at the weight and power requirements of a SFF PC.
           | 
           | Then look at a blade server... Still requires heavy steel
           | case, heavier than SFF PC because it's larger, only job is to
           | fit into heavy steel enclosure. Enclosure requires beefy
           | steel rack to handle weight.
           | 
           | Every layer makes logical sense but the end result does not!!
           | 
           | Older NAS servers held multiple 3.5" drives (heavy),
           | requiring big power supply. Now a plastic clip holds NVMe
           | drives onto a motherboard -- no steel!
        
         | logtempo wrote:
         | computers are complex indeed. That said, I don't think lowtech
         | philsophy is about browsing HN with a Macintosh II. It does
         | have this "get things done simple" branch, but also the ecology
         | side of it, the reflexion about the relationship with
         | technology, its social component, eventually the sovereignty we
         | have over technology and its sustainability.
        
         | galdosdi wrote:
         | Maybe if you run the Arachne web browser for MS-DOS on an older
         | non-UEFI intel machine, you might be approaching something
         | where one person could still understand the whole sequence
        
       | helsinkiandrew wrote:
       | Interesting magazine. Not to detract from its content - but are
       | any of those technologies really low tech? Old computers, solar
       | panels, and the various generators all rely on exceptionally
       | advanced science and technology. It would take decades of
       | research to recreate them from scratch.
       | 
       | It's more about reusing/repurposing 'old' discarded tech. Or
       | keeping high tech going as people would do in a post apocalyptic
       | society.
        
         | npteljes wrote:
         | I feel the same. It's just another arbitrary, an inconsistent
         | point in the tech tree of real life. Solar panel powered server
         | is low tech, but a firearm is not, for example.
         | 
         | So I think the point is to question the never-ending
         | technological advance a bit, and especially its application to
         | day-to-day life, which I think is good food for thought in
         | general.
        
           | spurgu wrote:
           | > It's just another arbitrary, an inconsistent point in the
           | tech tree of real life. Solar panel powered server is low
           | tech, but a firearm is not, for example.
           | 
           | Solar is not low-tech but I think you need to view it from
           | the point of being able to have a computer and internet at
           | all, in which case you'll need _some_ form of electricity
           | generation.
           | 
           | For hunting you don't need a firearm, bow and arrow does the
           | job just fine for most game.
           | 
           | > So I think the point is to question the never-ending
           | technological advance a bit, and especially its application
           | to day-to-day life, which I think is good food for thought in
           | general.
           | 
           | Yup. Lots of elementary stuff like do you really need to heat
           | your whole house in the winter or could you just use a
           | blanket (or some other form of localized heating) where you
           | spend 95% of your time. Stuff like most people won't give
           | much consideration to because the tech is there, it's easy to
           | use and it's cheap.
        
           | logtempo wrote:
           | I agree with your second paragraph. I think the bait of
           | "lowtech" name is thinking that the main goal is doing AI
           | with stick and mud. It's one of the goal (ofc not literally
           | ), but the most important one is showing alternative and
           | inviting people to think about what is really "technology"
           | and its implications. Mainly because browsing a website hide
           | a ton of processes that one user don't have to think about
           | it.
        
         | hkt wrote:
         | The magazine goes in to more than that, solar/old tech stuff is
         | included (I would think) because at this stage, disengaging
         | from tech effectively excludes people from society. So I read
         | it as meaning "within the boundaries of remaining included in
         | society, how low tech can we go?" and the conclusion is
         | seemingly "we can host a high traffic site on a battery powered
         | raspberry pi".
         | 
         | The other stuff in the magazine is very low tech indeed: their
         | articles on hot water bottles, pedal power, very early solar
         | power, and agriculture among others are exceptionally
         | interesting and I'd recommend reading them.
        
         | derbOac wrote:
         | Yeah I was going to say something similar, but you put it more
         | succinctly.
         | 
         | It seems the message is really about efficiency and
         | sustainability, not necessarily about low tech. Also, framing
         | it as being about low tech sort of helps things but also hurts
         | things.
         | 
         | For example, I was really interested to read the article about
         | bicycles, and think they make a set of excellent points, points
         | that don't seem to get enough attention in the cycling
         | community. But my guess is the cycling community (to the extent
         | there even is one cycling community), often (although not
         | always) focused on the latest and greatest tech, would respond
         | more to a bike being marketed as ultra-durable or upgradeable
         | and efficient than being "low tech".
        
           | phreeza wrote:
           | I think that tension is basically their whole thing.
        
         | RetroTechie wrote:
         | Lowresourcetechmagazine.com is too long domain name, no?
         | 
         | But yeah, "doing more with less" is the focus here. Skip
         | unnecessary cruft. Not so much avoid using (high) tech stuff.
         | 
         | Also note that in the realm of computing (or even general
         | electronics), high-tech IS frugal, if used appropiately. Thx to
         | Moore's law, switch-mode power supplies, RPi style computers
         | (or microcontrollers on the low end), e-paper / OLED displays &
         | similar fancy stuff. Doing _without_ those would be wasteful,
         | imho.
        
         | Ekaros wrote:
         | If you have electricity you are not really in realm of low
         | tech. I would consider mechanical human powered(not bike with
         | generator) to be low tech. And those might make sense if you
         | value that type of thing and don't want easiest way out...
        
       | SamWhited wrote:
       | Looks like it's a sunny day at the moment, but check out the
       | website after it's been overcast for a day or two. The background
       | (which just looks yellow right now) doesn't always look that way
       | and it's _really_ cool when the battery is at partial charge!
        
       | louwrentius wrote:
       | I've built a bike generator (badly), inspired by low-tech
       | magazine. Previously I made my blog solar-powered also inspired
       | by what low-tech magazine built.
       | 
       | I love the site.
        
       | a_gnostic wrote:
       | > This is a solar-powered website, which means it sometimes goes
       | offline
       | 
       | https://archive.is/CFrk2
        
       | tooltechgeek wrote:
       | I think at some point people get tired of so much turnover of
       | technology that doesn't correlate with much improvement in
       | quality of life (i.e. the latest phones are probably marginally
       | better than older ones) sometimes it even feels like one is
       | forever forced to upgrade computers, operating systems, etc, with
       | minimal improvements. For me that pointed me towards hobbies that
       | are lower tech such as working with hand tools, or crafts that
       | occasionally use tech (i.e. 3d printing) but the higher tech is
       | not the main point to the projects.
        
         | wholinator2 wrote:
         | Honestly at this point I've ceased to see even marginal
         | improvements and now observe almost exclusively regressions.
         | They keep taking away functionality, maybe the CPU is faster
         | but my ability to accurately manage the device i own to my
         | personal specifications is forever being reduced. I've
         | encountered many settings that claim to have been "moved" since
         | upgrading windows that just are no longer there. But the old
         | control panel controls that would've given me enough
         | information to proceed debugging are replaced with soft
         | cornered, sterile, white boxes with single toggles, giving the
         | absolute minimum of information possible, and refusing to
         | provide any means of forcing it to elaborate further!
         | 
         | Every app i use consistently gets worse every update,
         | especially social media. I had been saying it for years, but
         | even my non tech friends now are beginning to agree with me
         | which tells me it must be getting really bad.
         | 
         | It seems that every piece of software that can be updated
         | synchronously to the entire population of users enjoys a brief
         | period of success as it actually gets more usable, before
         | inevitably being consumed by profit interests and falling
         | deeper and deeper down the engagement and micro transaction
         | rabbit hole.
        
           | specproc wrote:
           | This may be a good time to give Linux a go as a daily driver,
           | if that's possible.
           | 
           | I made the switch a year or so ago, and it's been really
           | refreshing having my laptop not treat me in the way you
           | describe.
        
       | spencerf wrote:
       | There is a sister site "no-tech" magazine which is what I think
       | many people on this site think of when they think of low tech.
       | 
       | https://www.notechmagazine.com/
        
       | ris wrote:
       | I read this blog for years but more recently got tired of its
       | gimmicky contrarianism.
       | 
       | I've lost count of the number of "alternative" energy solutions
       | it has breathlessly presented which, to anyone with a calculator
       | and a basic understanding of physics, can't _possibly_ make
       | sense. e.g. the sister no-tech magazine still has an article up
       | on the GravityLight https://www.notechmagazine.com/2013/01/how-
       | to-design-more-po...
       | 
       | That's not to say it's not occasionally informative about obscure
       | technologies of the past.
        
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