[HN Gopher] Britain's decade of Art Deco densification
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Britain's decade of Art Deco densification
Author : bswud
Score : 77 points
Date : 2024-03-15 10:06 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.worksinprogress.news)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.worksinprogress.news)
| altacc wrote:
| I used to live in one of these London art-deco apartment blocks
| and it was a beautiful building, nice grounds, quirky but well
| laid out apartment. So much nicer than the generic "affordable"
| apartments built today. But it was also incredibly cold in the
| winter! No insulation, thin windows that couldn't be replaced as
| they were listed and the decades old central heating & hot water
| system kept breaking down. Cheaper to buy but a money pit to
| maintain.
| tpm wrote:
| Pretty sure the windows could be replaced with actually
| insulating ones, but it would be expensive and the landlords
| prefer not to do that. However having single-glazed windows in
| the 21st century is simply inexcusable. Experienced the same
| when I was living in London years ago (not a listed building).
| The underinvestment into insulating old buildings was
| staggering when compared with Central Europe.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| A lot of the housing stock here is very poor quality, run-
| down and filled with ancient plumbing and electrics, no
| insulation, single glazed, draughty windows. For some reason
| British people are extremely attached to old buildings and
| favour "character" over comfort, warmth, light, efficient
| storage space, etc.
| jl6 wrote:
| It's not "character" that Britain is mainly attached to,
| it's greenbelts.
|
| Difficult to build -> undersupply -> high prices/rents ->
| low incentive to improve.
| tpm wrote:
| I'm not sure it's about attachment, although the fact large
| residential areas of London are somehow 'protected' does
| not help. I'd guess it's mostly two things:
|
| * Landlords don't care their tennants pay too much for
| energy because there is no competitive pressure, the
| apartments will rent regardless. And many homes in London
| are rented.
|
| * The government does not care. The British society is very
| classist in my experience and the ruling class does not
| care the general public is freezing. So even while the UK
| was in the EU and the EU had various drives to improve
| energy efficiency of buildings, the UK mostly ignored them.
| jl6 wrote:
| England has always been run for the benefit of the
| landowning and homeowning class, in whom the greatest
| portion of political power, wealth and status are
| concentrated. This has been the case for at least 1000
| years.
|
| This is not a "1%" thing; about half of all UK adults
| live in a home they own. For homeowners, the current
| setup is pretty sweet. And for a while, the number of
| homeowners was increasing, hitting an all-time high in
| 2003 - making it not _too_ undemocratic that the country
| should be run for their benefit. But now with that figure
| reducing, mainly at the expense of younger people, it 's
| not surprising that discontent is on the rise
| (particularly online, where the youngest are the most
| visible).
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Lots of people really do prefer the old awful buildings.
|
| There was a story just a couple of days ago [0] where
| residents are protesting having their windows upgraded,
| despite their existing windows being cold, draughty,
| rusty, and mouldy. One man felt so strongly about it that
| he said he'd electrocute anyone who tried to change his
| windows.
|
| They're concerned new slightly thicker window frames
| might destroy the character of their 60s water-stained
| concrete brutalist eyesore.
|
| [0] https://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/yes-it-s-
| cold-but-y...
| maccard wrote:
| There's nutters everywhere, to be fair.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| > They're concerned new slightly thicker window frames
| might destroy the character of their 60s water-stained
| concrete brutalist eyesore.
|
| As a huge fan of both brutalist architecture and so-
| called 'tilt and turn' windows, I had already braced
| myself for feeling conflicted about this when I clicked
| through. But no, there's nothing particularly distinctive
| about the windows that would be lost in a renovation.
| Here's a high-resolution picture for those who want to
| see for themselves:
|
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Arlin
| gto...
|
| Notice that only a few of the sliding windows are even
| open on what appears to be a very pleasant day, so
| sliding-vs-tilting doesn't seem relevant. I don't think
| the extra centimetre of window frame is going to be
| visible from the seaside anyway!
| michaelt wrote:
| For listed buildings, you've got to get permission from the
| council. For most buildings they'll let you put in double-
| glazed windows _if you can get them in a style that matches
| the existing windows_.
|
| One of the iconic features of many Art Deco buildings is
| curved windows [1], and the flat windows having very skinny
| frames. That means nonstandard "heritage" windows, which can
| be several times the price of normal, mass-produced windows.
|
| Blocks of flats have the additional problem that it's
| unlikely every owner will have the cash to replace their
| windows at the same time. So it's tough to save money by
| getting them all done at once.
|
| [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/uWUr5YyvJvRDPkH27
| gpderetta wrote:
| Blocks are typically leaseholds, so if the freeholder
| decides to replace the windows, the leaseholders often have
| little ability to object.
|
| Of course often the freeholder has no interest in improving
| the building other than the minimal maintenance.
| tpm wrote:
| > For listed buildings, you've got to get permission
|
| Sure - it's the same in our country, with the additional
| trouble that there is a special institution that has to
| approve any changes in protected buildings and they are
| pretty harsh. And even then lots of them get updated.
|
| > Blocks of flats have the additional problem that it's
| unlikely every owner will have the cash to replace their
| windows at the same time.
|
| We have that too and what usually happens with changes that
| apply to the whole building (like the whole facade) is that
| the community of the owners finances changes like that with
| a credit on the whole building, there are special laws for
| that. Happens less often with just the windows because they
| are so cheap most people can afford them on their own.
| maccard wrote:
| There's an entirely short term outlook that's caused by the
| "housing ladder" IMO. If you spend any time on reddit, you'll
| see people asking "Why would I want to spend PS10,000
| insulating my home if the payback period isn't 4-5 years?"
| Instead of thinking about comfort and maintaining a building,
| they're thinking about ensuring that they maximise the value
| of their current property so that they can sell and upgrade
| to a bigger one.
|
| I live in an old stone building in Scotland - the previous
| owners installed a kitchen in 2019, and at that time they
| replaced the flooring. They _could_ have insulated under the
| floor, and done internal wall insulation but that would have
| added a few hundred pounds onto their renovation job, and
| they didn't care, they were content with the asthetic upgrade
| of the room.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I lived in a 1930s art-deco apartment building in London, and
| it was the nicest place I lived in England.
|
| At some point all the windows had been replaced with UPVC
| double glazed ones. The heating system had some redundancy, so
| when they closed half of it off to replace it we just had a day
| or two where they asked us to limit hot water use. (I don't
| remember but I assume this was done during the summer.)
| throwawayyy9237 wrote:
| I lived in one the buidings mentioned in this article.
|
| Pros: It was the most spacious flat I've lived on. I'm not
| talking about area, but the layout itself, it was amazingly well
| architected. Massive windows too, great lighting (but see cons).
|
| Cons: Single glaze windows (and a protected facade) meant eye-
| watering energy bills. Poor quality subfloor (with carpet) meant
| 24/7 creaking when walking over it.
| peterpost2 wrote:
| I live in a similarly protected flat in Scotland and in the
| last decade there has been quite some development with double
| glazing for historic buildings. Quite a bit more expensive than
| normal double glazing though but at least you can get quite
| decent windows for historic buildings.
| physhster wrote:
| energy efficiency > historical preservation
| twelvechairs wrote:
| Good places to live > a little cost in retrofitting
| mattlondon wrote:
| Also secondary glazing is a thing and is not awful, even if
| not as good as "proper" double glazing.
|
| Lots of heat is lost through solid walls though (and ceilings
| and floors) it is not just windows.
| creativenolo wrote:
| An interest free loans from the Scottish government to buy
| them (repayable over 12 years)
| tetris11 wrote:
| Oh wow, I now suddenly understand why Welwyn Garden City is named
| so. I'm not sure how much of a success it is, given how small the
| town actually is, but maybe that was the plan all along.
| mrwh wrote:
| Takes me back! I always wanted to live in a 30s mansion block
| when I lived in London, and did once look around a flat in the
| building pictured in Belsize park, the one which recalls the sort
| of ocean liner a Wodehouse character would use to travel to New
| York. And it was beautiful and the rent not too dear. (This was
| around 2010.) And it also smelled strongly of mildew.
| leoedin wrote:
| This is an excellent article. The mention of the Croydon "SPD2"
| planning document was really interesting too - I hadn't heard
| about it. It's exactly what we need in cities if we want to truly
| increase density and reduce house prices.
|
| There's an interesting summary here -
| https://www.platformspace.net/home/what-are-suburbs-for-pavi....
| What's particularly interesting is how successful it was -
| Croydon seems to have had 4x the number of "homes in small (<10)
| developments" in the 4 years after it was brought in.
| https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d01a7efbf4ae5...
| That's an incredibly good result!
|
| What's unfortunate is the backlash - it seems that there was a
| lot of outcry over "greedy developers", and the result was the
| election of a new mayor who cancelled it.
|
| It seems obvious to me that the only real way to achieve the
| needed housing growth in the places people want to live is to
| allow suburban and urban densification. Most English cities are
| shockingly low density - it's crazy that relatively unloved 3
| bedroom terraces sit in the shadow of 50 floor apartments.
|
| The current status quo is that a lot of these terraced houses are
| converted into low quality flats. The density of people is often
| still there, but they live in terrible accommodation. Building
| houses in cities should not be a controversial thing to do. Even
| if it means knocking down a few which aren't suitable any more.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I thought Art Deco was distinctly American architectural/art
| contribution to the world. Way better than the modern utilitarian
| glass boxes, or the Brutalisim of the Communists. Wish it would
| have stayed popular longer. Art Deco inspired cars are some the
| coolest looking things on this planet.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| The Golden Gate Bridge
| Lance_ET_Compte wrote:
| The coolest fonts and light fixtures for sure!
| azmodeus wrote:
| I have always associated art deco with France and Italy
| primarily but I guess differences in background changes our
| perspective
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