[HN Gopher] The Oregon Outback International Dark Sky Sanctuary
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The Oregon Outback International Dark Sky Sanctuary
Author : lisper
Score : 295 points
Date : 2024-03-14 22:59 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.hereisoregon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.hereisoregon.com)
| viksit wrote:
| curious how or why australia doesn't feature in this given their
| extensive unpopulated outback seems relevant.
| hiddencost wrote:
| Sanctuary means protected by law or regulation
| souenzzo wrote:
| and are there laws in the USA?
| tracerbulletx wrote:
| That's literally what the article is about.
| souenzzo wrote:
| so it is "... Dark Sky Sanctuary in the USA"
| tadfisher wrote:
| Read the article please. The organization behind this is
| DarkSky _International_.
| srvmshr wrote:
| But has it been passed by the State congress as a
| law/regulation? Curious to learn more. The article does not
| tell more than this snippet
|
| > The designation was given by DarkSky International, an
| organization dedicated to protecting the nighttime
| environment and preserving dark skies through environmentally
| responsible outdoor lighting. The project is the work of the
| Oregon Dark Sky Network, an ad-hoc group of state, local and
| federal officials, private individuals, business owners and
| tourism agencies.
|
| If only a nonprofit is claiming it, unless they purchased the
| land, this isn't legally enforceable without a heavy-handed
| backing of state government. Such protections have to get
| cemented by some legislation as the next step.
| luxuryballs wrote:
| It will surely be the best place to watch the complete Starlink
| infinity grid perforate the night sky fully in all directions
| with a perfectly aligned quilt of dots.
| shadowgovt wrote:
| Yeah, it's going to look pretty neat.
| deadbabe wrote:
| When is this expected to happen?
| chroma wrote:
| Probably never because every generation of Starlink satellite
| has been dimmer than the last. Despite being significantly
| bigger, the v2 minis are only 19% as bright as the original
| satellites.
| hedora wrote:
| Honestly, I can see why astronomers are pissed (they need
| to use software to delete satellite streaks from long
| exposures), but they really aren't particularly visible
| except at dusk and dawn. They reflect the sun as they
| rise/set on the horizon, but that's about it.
|
| I live in an area where we can just barely still see the
| milky way, but light pollution is encroaching steadily.
|
| The main problem is all the empty office buildings decided
| they need to leave their lights on 24/7. (Check out a light
| pollution map of Silicon Valley to see which megacorps are
| the worst offenders).
|
| LED lights are probably a bigger problem though. They're
| free to run, so people leave them on all night. Global
| light pollution has been growing exponentially in the last
| decade (faster than the population).
| porphyra wrote:
| > LED lights are probably a bigger problem though
|
| Yeah white lights can't be filtered out whereas sodium
| vapor lamps' narrow emission spectrum can be easily
| blocked by special filters.
| hedora wrote:
| That's part of it. Part of it is that sodium bulbs are
| power hungry, so they tend to be provisioned to be
| dimmer.
|
| Also, many LEDs have reflectors on top that prevent them
| from shooting light into the sky. These aren't required
| by building codes from what I've seen. Similarly, I don't
| think buildings are designed with this in mind.
|
| Office buildings with massive glass atriums / skylights
| tend to be particularly bad offenders, since indoor
| lighting is often designed to bounce light off the
| ceiling.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Why isn't there some group of people who make it their
| mission to get into empty office buildings and turn off
| all the lights?
| hedora wrote:
| They're not abandoned; just unused in the middle of the
| night.
|
| I'd love to watch a satire where eco-terrorists in cat
| suits attempt to do what you're suggesting though.
| gigel82 wrote:
| I still think that's a test of how much we're willing to
| tolerate. Since there is no uproar (outside of niche
| communities like amateur astronomy) I imagine they'll keep
| pushing the envelope.
|
| Don't be surprised when in a few years we'll have ads plastered
| across the sky (day and night) via drones or novel projection
| technologies; it's not like you're gonna see the stars beyond
| the Starlink junk field anyway...
| macNchz wrote:
| Such a huge percentage of people these days live in urban
| sprawl with so much light pollution they can barely see any
| stars at all, so it makes sense there isn't much backlash.
|
| Taking people who've spent their entire lives in populated
| areas into the backcountry and spending a couple of hours
| with them just staring up at the sky as their eyes adjust and
| the shapes and colors of the Milky Way appear is kind of a
| mystical experience.
| porphyra wrote:
| FWIW, SpaceX has been actively working to make the Starlink
| satellites darker --- painting them black, adding a sun
| visor, working with the International Astronomical Union, etc
| --- so it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that they are
| "pushing the envelope" in the other direction.
|
| Naturally, I do wish that they were even darker and less
| obtrusive but oh well.
|
| [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-starlink-internet-
| sat...
| mikro2nd wrote:
| Correction: they tried colouring satellites darker, but
| that caused heat radiation difficulties, so they've gone
| back to reflective satellites. Doesn't sound like they
| tried very hard. Plus the satellites have gotten larger (=
| still more reflectivity.)
| porphyra wrote:
| The new satellites are 18% as reflective as the original
| ones despite being bigger.
| beginning_end wrote:
| Hoping for Kessler syndrome :)
| shadowgovt wrote:
| If I understand correctly, generally not from Starlink. Its
| orbit is too low; the satellites and their debris tend to end
| up pushed into the atmosphere eventually.
| ldayley wrote:
| The skies there are brilliant! But that also means it is one of
| the most remote areas of the US. There is very little but high
| desert and ramshackle cattle ranches in all directions. There is
| a reason that they named this county "Malheur" (it's the French
| word for 'misfortune'). I drive through a part of this area every
| couple of months and it's agonizing, but on the rare occasion
| that I'm solo and driving it at night I always make time to stop,
| turn the lights off, and look up.
| msisk6 wrote:
| A few years back I camped out on the Alvord Playa in this part of
| Oregon on a clear, moonless, summer night: it was spectacular!
|
| I've been to quite a few remote dark sky sites, but this place
| was something else.
|
| Later that night a storm rolled in and I had to get off the Playa
| due to the strong winds and blowing sand and dust.
|
| I ended up sleeping in my Jeep next to a power substation since I
| only had a half tank of gas and that wasn't enough to get me to
| the nearest open gas station. At this time in Oregon even the
| rural gas stations were full service only so I had to wait until
| morning when the store at Fields Station opened up and I could
| gas up and get back home.
|
| It was a memorable trip.
| bb88 wrote:
| Yes, I've been out there.
|
| I absolutely agree it's amazing.
| michelpp wrote:
| Was Alvord hot springs not open? I know they've been hit or
| miss over the years. It's pretty primitive, basically a hole
| dynamited into the ground but the water is amazing and it's
| usually never busy. They also have a great access road to the
| playa.
| msisk6 wrote:
| Yeah, it was open but I didn't take the time for a soak. This
| was during the week in late summer and there was no one
| around at the time.
| rrix2 wrote:
| I've been looking forward to going out there this summer.
| The guy who sold me my subie told me about camping out
| there with the subie and a full spare gas can to get back
| to a gas station
| whatindaheck wrote:
| Ahhh I was about to post the same. I had never been in a
| landscape like that. It's really mind-bending being out on the
| playa at night.
|
| Oregon is such a beautiful state.
| msisk6 wrote:
| Most people think of Oregon as the western third from the
| Cascades to the coast. The eastern two thirds is basin and
| range desert and equally beautiful in a different way.
| jmspring wrote:
| There is a camp ground just across the CA border on Goose
| Lake north of Alturas. Quiet, hookups, small town near by
| and not much light pollution.
| __mharrison__ wrote:
| What about North Korea?
| tenlp wrote:
| I've been there once. It's hard to move around at night without
| lights (unless there's a power outage)
| sparker72678 wrote:
| The progress Dark Sky International (and friends) has made is
| very encouraging.
|
| I have been extremely pessimistic about the dark sky movement
| making progress _at all_ given how desperately fearful of _any_
| darkness the areas around me seem to be (daylight-bright
| streetlights, storefront signs to rival Vegas, etc.)
|
| Truly dark skies are magical. I'm so glad they'll be around at
| least a bit longer.
| car wrote:
| What about the (happy) isles of Oceania? The night skies there
| are nigh unreal. I've never seen the milky way like that before.
| elliottkember wrote:
| Kiwi here; we try not to advertise it too much because tourism
| will ruin things
| pugworthy wrote:
| Gotta be careful it doesn't become a force of hobbit.
| grecy wrote:
| I drove across the Simpson Desert in Central Australia. 600km of
| absolutely nothing. No buildings, no water, just two sandy tire
| tracks through the desert [1]. The stars were utterly
| breathtaking, the milky way was so bright it kept me awake at
| night in my swag (ground tent). I took this photo as a single 8s
| exposure on just a sony A7iii [2].
|
| Then a few months later I drove the Canning Stock Route, the
| world's most remote road [3]. In 1,050 miles over 10 days I never
| saw another vehicle or person on the track. I went into one
| aboriginal community to buy gas, it was the only "lightbulb" I
| saw in ten days. I have not really looked it up, but I suspect I
| was about as far from a lightbulb as you can drive to on planet
| earth, and the stars every night were utterly incredible. I
| stayed up way later than I should have night after night trying
| to take it all in. The Canning is in Western Australia, a state
| that is approaching twice as big as Alaska.[4]
|
| Dark skies are awesome!
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmJKXDdrvcI
|
| [2] https://www.instagram.com/p/CersLuLBfCz/
|
| [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UR6agkRbT4
|
| [4] http://www.comparea.org/AU_WA+US_AK
| Arrath wrote:
| Incredible picture!
| defrost wrote:
| A 2.5 million-acre swath of southern Oregon has been named the
| largest Dark Sky Sanctuary in the world.
|
| It's smaller than the inner 70 km radius of the Murchison Quiet
| Zone which is 15,394 sq km or 3.8 million acres.
| The Radio Quiet Zone, centred on Inyarrimanha Ilgari Bundara, the
| CSIRO Murchison Radio-astronomy Observatory, comprises:
|
| * A 70km radius Inner Zone; other radiocommunications services
| within the Inner Zone are taken to be secondary services in
| relation to radio astronomy; and
|
| * An Outer Zone from a 70km to 150km radius; and
|
| * Coordination zones from 70km up to 260km radius (depending on
| frequency).
|
| https://www.atnf.csiro.au/projects/askap/ARQZWA.html
|
| Given the absence of townsites and infrastructure (aside from
| unmanned radio telescopes and cosmic microwave detectors, etc) it
| is pretty "dark" at night (aside from the overwhelming glare of
| the milky way in the southern hemisphere) - it's just not an
| "official Dark Sky Sanctuary".
|
| For those interested: a global Light Pollution Map
|
| https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/
| srvmshr wrote:
| Unless I am missing the distinction, Oregon outback us being
| protected as a sanctuary whereas Central Australia, Kazakhstan
| plains, Hokkaido in Japan etc. are larger but without any
| guarantees of dark sky protection (?). Please correct me if this
| understanding is wrong, because I saw some other HNers raising
| this point.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Also the 70% of Earth that is ocean.
| starkparker wrote:
| Nice job representing HN's large dolphin and whale audience.
| lettergram wrote:
| Having been to the boundary waters a few times - I can saw the
| sky is absolutely amazing at night.
|
| I wouldn't give up artificial light for a second, but everyone
| should experience the night sky as our ancestors saw it
| sdwr wrote:
| What does the Sanctuary part mean? Are there increased light
| restrictions, or is it mostly a "put a name on what's already
| happening"-type thing?
| srvmshr wrote:
| As far as I understand reading the article (and some Wiki pages
| around it), it seems to be a consortium of people trying to
| protect the dark night sky. However, this article hasn't made
| it clear if the 'sanctuary' implies it has got NPS or State's
| protection in reaching that objective.
|
| The sanctuary is a term which was introduced in the last
| decade, and with loose subjective definition
|
| > _Sanctuaries are the most remote (and often darkest) places
| in the world whose conservation state is most fragile._
|
| > _In 2015, the IDA introduced the term "Dark Sky Sanctuary"
| and designated the Elqui Valley of northern Chile as the
| world's first International Dark Sky Sanctuary._
|
| There are legally protected zones like mentioned in [1], but
| seem to cover smaller patches of area. But how is a sanctuary
| protected by legal enforceable measures isn't described in the
| same spirit. Probably this is something area experts &
| conservationists know better.
|
| The verbiage is at best a tad confusing IMHO. While places like
| Central Australia or South NZ is remote, Oregon outback is much
| more accessible. I'd wager Star valley is on similar league of
| being pristine and yet more remote being in WY.
|
| 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-sky_preserve
| tejtm wrote:
| A plug here for the Oregon Star Party if you want to experience
| what these dark skies are about. You are at about 5,000 feet in
| the Ochoco National Forest. It keeps getting pushed earlier in
| the summer trying to get in before the western North America fire
| season is in full swing. which is sub-optimal for long nights,
| but the high desert flowers make up for allot.
|
| Only affiliation is I been going for a couple of decades.
|
| https://oregonstarparty.org/
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Related tangent: last summer I got the chance to spend a week at
| Medawisla -- the Appalachian Mountain Club -managed lodge and
| cabin and dark sky park in Maine, on the edge of 100-Mile
| Wilderness. Highest possible recommendation.
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| I think those are called dark-sky preserves?
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark-sky_preserve
| bmitc wrote:
| I can't imagine what the stars used to look like. It must have
| been amazing.
| wskish wrote:
| To fully experience the night sky there is no substitute for
| getting up to altitude. Most of the atmosphere that really
| interferes with the view is way down low. Try a moonless night at
| 8000 to 11000 feet elevation in the eastern Sierra or Yosemite
| high country to really blow your mind. Boss level is a summit
| bivy during a new moon meteor shower with a close friend or
| lover.
| davidw wrote:
| See my post elsewhere here about Pine Mountain Observatory.
| It's not quite that high, but they have telescopes and
| knowledgeable staff to explain what you're looking at.
| oregoncurtis wrote:
| Steens Mountain summit is at 9,738' and is pretty much smack
| dab in the middle of the darkest region. It's pretty awesome up
| there.
| davidw wrote:
| Well that's kind of cool to log in and see on HN. This is right
| next door to where I live in Bend.
|
| A few suggestions in that part of Oregon:
|
| * Close to Bend, you can visit the Pine Mountain Observatory,
| which is open to the public in the summer.
| https://pmo.uoregon.edu/visiting/ - at 6000 feet, and far from
| anything, the views of the night sky even without telescopes are
| amazing. And the staff there point the scopes at interesting
| sights and explain what they are.
|
| * Further out, Steens mountain and that area is incredible. It's
| one of the most remote parts of the US outside of Alaska.
|
| * The Christmas Valley area has a lot of interesting things like
| Fort Rock, Crack-in-the-Ground, Hole-in-the-Ground and the sand
| dunes.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| If you haven't been, the "Hopservatory" at Worthy Brewing is
| also really cool to check out.
| davidw wrote:
| I've been there a number of times, but not to the observatory
| thing. Roger's a cool guy and does a lot of good things here
| in Bend.
| ldayley wrote:
| I nearly edited my comment below to add a mention of Pine
| Mountain but selfishly (...yes I'm sorry) wanted to keep it
| obscure in the hope that it'd be less crowded when I visit it
| myself periodically.
|
| If I'm going be less selfish, I should probably mention that my
| next favorite stargazing spots are Star Valley, WY (yes, named
| for the celestial views); the high mountain plateaus
| (8,000-10,000ft+ altitude) between Bozeman, MT and Red Lodge,
| MT; and Central Idaho (Sawtooth or White Cloud Ranges).
|
| I haven't made it to Steens yet, thanks for the prompt ;)
|
| Happy Stargazing!
| waynecochran wrote:
| I grew up in Bend. I had stayed up all night with grad
| students running the place... they would point their large
| telescopes at whatever we wanted to see. I have never seen
| the Milky Way like that before. You are on a mt in the desert
| in the middle of nowhere.
| davidw wrote:
| The odds that not commenting on some widely known thing will
| 'keep it a secret' are pretty low. It's been posted here for
| instance: https://visitbend.com/journal/stargazing-in-bend-
| oregon/
| waynecochran wrote:
| Feels like home.
| my_username_is_ wrote:
| Plus there's that pesky bike shop that keeps telling
| everyone about it
| michelpp wrote:
| Love PMO, get there a day or two early on a moonless weekend
| and you can usually score one of the campsites.
|
| >* The Christmas Valley area has a lot of interesting things
| like Fort Rock, Crack-in-the-Ground, Hole-in-the-Ground and the
| sand dunes.
|
| Great list, I'd also add Summer Lake Hot Springs, Freemont
| Point Lookout, The Lost Forest, Glass Butte, the sunstone mines
| near Plush, pretty much all of the Malheur National Wildlife
| Refuge, Crane Hot Springs, might as well throw in Painted
| Hills, there's so much!
| lend000 wrote:
| Steens mountain is one of my favorite places I've visited. I
| found it when I was young by just looking at maps for what
| seemed like the most remote area I could drive to.
| Unfortunately it was humid in the summer when I went and the
| stars weren't as notable as I expected, but the vast emptiness,
| the epic landscape, and the pronghorn made it worthwhile.
| porphyra wrote:
| Just curious, how does one get to the middle of the Dark Sky
| Sanctuary to do some astronomy stuff without driving a car and
| ruining everyone's astronomy with the headlights?
| rrix2 wrote:
| Doing it before night fall and setting up camp :)
| porphyra wrote:
| This seems very obvious in retrospect but I literally didn't
| think of that.
| xrd wrote:
| I didn't read all the comments so perhaps this is already
| answered? I'm curious why this is the largest when you've got
| massive land areas in the Midwest where very few people live.
|
| As an Oregonian I'm both proud and surprised. Nice work to all
| involved.
| michelpp wrote:
| The midwest can definitely get dark, but the "seeing" isn't as
| good as the oregon outback for a few reasons, 1) elevation,
| most of eastern oregon is above 1200m, steens mountain is
| almost 3000m. 2) climate, the midwest can be very humid and
| hazy, whereas the high desert is very arid and clear, 3)
| obscuration, eastern oregon is covered in mountain ranges with
| dry basins in between (hence "basin and range" name), and you
| only have to go over one range from any kind of town to have
| its light totally blocked.
| basiccalendar74 wrote:
| a similar blocking effect happens in Joshua Tree. Very clear
| skies even though LA is not far away.
| xrd wrote:
| This is terrific. Thanks so much.
|
| Can you elaborate on why the elevation matters? I mean, a few
| thousand feet isn't going to make up the distance between the
| earth and the star providing the light. ;)
| defrost wrote:
| Less atmosphere (the closer to the ground, the denser the
| air), above the clouds means no difraction, etc. through
| water.
|
| Dry near zero humidity desert locations also have
| spectactular night views.
| shmageggy wrote:
| The organization that grants these titles, DarkSky
| International, bases them more on local policy towards light
| pollution rather than the absolute magnitude of darkness. It's
| more about whether the local municipality has committed to good
| lighting ordinances etc.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| Indeed. For example, Cranborne Chase Dark Sky Reserve isn't
| that dark at all. At darkest, it's at about Bortle 4, which
| means that the Milky Way is visible, but not that impressive,
| and if you have reasonably youthful eyes you could probably
| walk around without carrying a light source on an overcast
| day.
| ianburrell wrote:
| The Midwest is smoothly populated with regular towns and farms.
| If you look at darkskymap.com, the darkest areas in Midwest are
| darker but not the darkest. It is only leave Corn Belt that get
| dark spots. But taxes going to the western deserts to get
| really dark.
| RHSman2 wrote:
| I'm lucky enough to live somewhere that gives me regular, clear
| and dark views of the cosmos. I think it changes you as a human.
| scraplab wrote:
| Kielder Forest in the north of England is another spot that's got
| Dark Sky status[1].
|
| We stayed in a place with an A frame roof that opens into a V
| shape so you can lie in bed and watch the stars, which was pretty
| great[2].
|
| [1]: https://www.visitkielder.com/play/discover/dark-skies
|
| [2]: https://www.visitkielder.com/play/discover/skyden
| maCDzP wrote:
| I went hiking in Yosemite/John Muir for a week. The night sky was
| something I hadn't experienced before.
|
| I didn't bring a tent so I slept under the night sky.
|
| I remember waking up and thinking "aha, that's why it's called
| the Milky Way".
| voidmain0001 wrote:
| Oregon is beautiful. For the Canadian "east is least" crowd
| there's the Torrance barrens dark sky park 2 hours north of
| Toronto with impressive night skies. But, like every attraction
| around the GTA it gets very crowded and many don't respect the
| code of darkness which has lead to same nasty verbal fights.
|
| https://www.torrancebarrens.com/dark-sky
| sensanaty wrote:
| I would recommend anyone who has the means to, to go to Raja
| Ampat near Papua, specifically by boat. You're in the middle of
| open water in Indonesian seas with nothing around you for quite a
| while, and the amount of stars you can see in the night sky is
| simply mindblowing. We didn't even need lights turned on to
| navigate around the ship/islands, it was crazy to witness
| Ductapemaster wrote:
| My dad said the stars in Raja Ampat were incredible -- he was
| on a dive trip there, and was _really_ out in the middle of
| nowhere at night on a boat.
|
| My girlfriend and I had a similar experience at Volcanoes
| National Park in Hawaii. We went to see some of the active lava
| flows a couple years ago. The park is open 24/7, so one night
| around midnight we took a walk on the side of the caldera where
| all you can see is the lava glow (and had no people) and the
| view of the sky was absolutely spectacular. The Milky Way just
| smacks you in the face. There's a reason why they built
| telescopes on Mouna Kea!
| quinncom wrote:
| If you're wondering where this is, here's a website with map
| (also PDF version): https://www.southernoregon.org/dark-
| skies/oregon-outback-dar...
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