[HN Gopher] Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
___________________________________________________________________
Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]
Author : xNeil
Score : 339 points
Date : 2024-03-11 11:53 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.sdfo.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.sdfo.org)
| sorokod wrote:
| I remember reading the story for the first time and my feelings
| of pity and horror when the protagonist's decline began.
|
| With lifespans increasing, many of us will have Charlie's
| experience.
| xNeil wrote:
| It is quite the impactful story. Saw it under a Twitter (X)
| thread on IQ and orders of thinking - worth the read.
| techwizrd wrote:
| We read this aloud together in grade school. I skipped ahead
| and thoroughly regretted it. The class was still in the hopeful
| portion, and I had to watch them come to the same realization I
| did.
|
| When you're that young, you're used to the idea that you will
| constantly learn, grow, and expand your horizons. The idea of
| regression is both real and likely is frightening and
| motivating. It's truly a story that has stuck with me.
| myth2018 wrote:
| That's an interesting insight. I didn't notice that Charlie's
| trajectory also works as an allegory for the regular mental
| decline of the average person
| sorokod wrote:
| Charlie's trajectory may be your trajectory, not as an
| allegory. You may be that average person.
| mrexroad wrote:
| s/allegory/analogy/
|
| It may just be a side effect of my dyslexia coping, but I
| read it as 'analogy' until reading your comment. Even
| then, I'm am pretty sure everyone knew they meant
| 'analogy' and just moved on. It's okay to point out
| mistakes, but please be civil when doing so.
| myth2018 wrote:
| Hi, but I meant allegory indeed.
|
| According to Wiktionary:
|
| - (rhetoric) A narrative in which a character, place, or
| event is used to deliver a broader message about real-
| world issues and occurrences.
|
| - A picture, book, or other form of communication using
| such representation.
|
| - A symbolic representation which can be interpreted to
| reveal a hidden meaning, usually a moral or political
| one.
|
| He might have been triggered by my use of "average". I
| realize it now that it may not have been adequate, sorry
| for that, English is not my first language.
| mrexroad wrote:
| My bad, my dyslexia and reacting to less-than polite
| comment got best of me :)
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| It wouldn't be allegory if it didn't apply to the
| majority of the bell curve. I'm not sure why you say "not
| an allegory." If Flowers for Algernon wasn't a story with
| something to teach us about our own lives, then I don't
| think so many of us would find it interesting.
|
| The only reason some people escape this fate is that they
| die too young.
| magnio wrote:
| > the regular mental decline of the average person
|
| _of every person_
| keiferski wrote:
| I don't think that's true at all. Most people die before
| they fall to the level of intelligence the character does
| near the end of the novel. Even many 90-year olds are
| still fairly lucid.
| Fricken wrote:
| The key word is 'allegory'
| ebiester wrote:
| ...if they live long enough.
|
| (Pedantically, that decline may take less than 15
| seconds.)
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Indeed. I wish I could have been born in a world where I could
| use my skills for survival in the forests and die younger but
| have a more fulfilling life. Modern technological society is a
| disappointment, even if I am more comfortable.
| qgin wrote:
| You could get pretty close if you wanted to
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Not really. There are very few wild areas left, especially
| in warmer areas. Much of the natural resources of these
| areas are contaminated such as water. Natural areas are
| often government-managed or privately owned. Gone are the
| days where you could wander off into the wild and just live
| as some of the indigineous tribes used to.
| bombcar wrote:
| You could live as long as you wanted on BLM land, as long
| as you kept moving.
|
| Of course, you'd probably die pretty quickly, but nobody
| would _stop_ you.
|
| The chance of living on a proverbial paradisal desert
| island isn't available anymore; those places are
| desirable!
| stevenwoo wrote:
| Nomadland documents the writer and an entire
| subpopulation (working, not going to die) moving along
| BLM lands to seasonal agricultural jobs and warehouse
| jobs and National Park service jobs, it sounds kind of
| exhausting and precarious, not very different from
| struggling in a single day job.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > BLM
|
| What does this mean? I doubt it stands for the political
| acronym that first comes to my mind.
| monknomo wrote:
| Bureau of Land Management
| presidentender wrote:
| You can still go die in the forest. One fellow had a book
| written about him for doing just that.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| It's not the dying that matters. It's the opportunity to
| live in the forest that I would like. Life and death are
| part of existence and we should not try and escape that. It
| is only the pathological dream of modern technologists to
| escape death, which creates a rather abysmal life.
| lolinder wrote:
| > It is only the pathological dream of modern
| technologists to escape death
|
| It's not _only_ their dream, it 's also the plot of one
| of the world's oldest works of literature (The Epic of
| Gilgamesh). Distress over the inevitability of death is
| not a modern phenomenon, but we _have_ succeeded in
| extending our lives further than any previous generation.
| pjmorris wrote:
| Consider taking up backpacking as a hobby (e.g. follow
| the /r/appalachiantrail subreddit,) or maybe volunteer
| with a scout troop that keeps an active hiking/camping
| schedule.
| mrexroad wrote:
| Do you do any outdoors activities? One thing I've learned
| over the years, and was somewhat surprised by, is that I find
| type-II outdoor fun more fulfilling than my hobbies or work.
| For me, it's a mix of 1) nature is awesome and indifferently
| brutal af, 2) having/improvising/gaining knowledge and skills
| to handle situations you haven't before, and 3) pushing
| yourself physically beyond some limit. I don't like
| exercising and went far too many years not doing so, but when
| I have a trip on the calendar I tend to get out of my chair
| to stretch and strengthen regularly. If anything, using my
| skills for survival in the forests (and deserts, snow, etc)
| will help me reach death later and with a better quality of
| life. Otherwise, I joke with my wife that if I lose my
| faculties, she can leave me at the edge of the Grand Canyon
| in my wheelchair and maybe I'll just simply forget to set the
| brake.
| mrexroad wrote:
| Maybe I replied too hastily. I reread your comment and it
| seems you lament intertwined societal/technological changes
| rather than simply wishing to spend more time hanging out
| with the trees.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| I do lots. I spend every second I can outdoors, and I'm a
| wildlife photographer also...
| Pwntheon wrote:
| What's the context here? This is not the whole book I think?
| throw_away_8080 wrote:
| Originally it was just a short story. The book was published
| later.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| And there was an educational version, I read it in junior
| high. Read the full version in Highschool (not as part of a
| class).
| nicbou wrote:
| This book was a good read
| croes wrote:
| Same post two years ago, 210 comments
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692
| roshin wrote:
| Great story, but terrible title. I'm not sure exactly what the
| point of a title is, but if it's to inform about what the story
| is, or entice, it does neither.
| WJW wrote:
| Many fictional titles explain very little if you have not
| already read the work. Take "lord of the rings" for example, or
| "Anna Karenina", or even "the Bible".
|
| "Flowers for Algernon" is a fine, memorable title that makes
| sense in the context of what the story is about.
| arethuza wrote:
| I consulted an AI to see if it could recommend a better title
| for "Lord of the Rings" - and (I am not making this up) it
| suggested "Ringworld"....
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| Do I hear the librarian going "Ook"? Sir Terry must be
| turning in his grave.
|
| Edit: Note -- I confused Ringworld with Discworld, as
| pointed out by rowyourboat below.
| rowyourboat wrote:
| I think you are confusing rings with discs. Larry Niven
| is the one doing the spinning
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| My apologies. You are correct indeed.
| zem wrote:
| to bring this full circle, terry pratchett's early
| science fiction novel "strata" was largely a parody of
| "ringworld". not as good as his post-stride-hitting
| discworld books, but worth a read anyway
| nottorp wrote:
| But the "AI" recommendation does sound like it came from
| a Discworld book.
| mangamadaiyan wrote:
| On that note, I really wish someone would name their AI
| after Bergholt Stuttley a.k.a Bloody Stupid Johnson.
| tomrod wrote:
| It's a story that is a classical part of education for most
| adults who have gone through it (US-focused).
|
| Perhaps you didn't read it. If your education journey was in
| another locale, are there any stories that stick with you that
| strike a similar contemplation, of the hubris of man and the
| untamed heart?
| raymondh wrote:
| The Terminal Man by Michael Crichton
| myth2018 wrote:
| Did you read the book? (Spoiler Alert) Basically the only thing
| remaining with Charlie after his regression was the memory of
| his friend Algernon. A "mere" laboratory rat, like himself.
| That's a message about what things really matter in the long
| run.
| helboi4 wrote:
| Engineering robot-person who cannot comprehend art with
| unquantifiable emotional value sneers, self-righteously at
| critically acclaimed art. He knows better because he knows
| calculus AND he organised his pens in chronological order of
| their manufacture date this morning. The electric feeling of
| restrained satisfaction had prickled across all the cropped
| hairs of his protruding neck. Everything must have logical
| meaning, he says. His wife peels away from him laboriously like
| the protective film he never takes off electrical products. I'm
| going to sleep, she says.
| LastTrain wrote:
| Pretty sure that was the joke, engineering robot-person.
| cjaybo wrote:
| What makes you think they are joking?
| fortran77 wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/LOLHackerNews/comments/1bc3717/grea...
| alexb_ wrote:
| Is this your personal hackernews hate subreddit? All
| submissions are from one user
| Zealotux wrote:
| The first book I couldn't put down and had to read in one
| sitting. It may be the origin of my fear of mental decline, which
| is much more horrific than death to me.
| the-chitmonger wrote:
| Hard agree - this book inspired a fear in me that led me to
| seek every possible preventative method to combat dementia or
| other neurodegenerative diseases. In case anyone wants to see
| my (admittedly amateur) research, I've listed some things I've
| found below.
|
| - Exercise regularly and mitigate conditions like diabetes,
| hypertension*, high cholesterol [1] (aerobic exercise seems to
| be the best for this, likely because it increases cerebral
| blood flow)
|
| - Avoid night shift work/disrupting the circadian rhythm [2]
| (seems to be linked to poor sleep's impact on cardiovascular
| health, which has in turn seen a strong link to dementia
| developing)
|
| - Increase your cognitive reserve (math is very commonly
| mentioned as a way to boost this but I don't think it's the
| only way) seems to insulate you from the impacts of dementia
| [3] (this citation isn't a formal paper per se but this
| statement has been echoed across other articles[4][5])
|
| - Read something regularly [6][7] (I have also seen articles
| mentioning reciting mantras, but I can't find them at the
| moment)
|
| - Small doses of nicotine [8][9][10] (I am at work right now so
| I cannot verify whether or not these studies were funded by
| tobacco companies - maybe take this one with a grain of salt.
| Additionally, smoking cigarettes have been linked to an
| increased risk of dementia. It may be better to try patches or
| lozenges?)
|
| * There are studies[11][12][13] that suggest high blood
| pressure in seniors can lead to an increased risk of dementia
| or worsened cognitive function for those with dementia. One
| common guess is that the reduced blood flow to the brain in old
| age is the primary issue, but it could be another covariate
| that leads to . Not a concern for most of us on this site (I
| think)
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258000/
|
| [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6164904/
|
| [3] https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-is-
| cogniti...
|
| [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507991/
|
| [5] https://www.alzheimersresearchuk.org/news/building-
| cognitive...
|
| [6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8482376/
|
| [7] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2911991/
|
| [8] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7912116/
|
| [9]
| https://actaneurocomms.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s4...
|
| [10] https://www.alzheimers.gov/clinical-trials/memory-
| improvemen...
|
| [11] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8608286/
|
| [12]
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
|
| [13] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14694027/
|
| Edited for markdown
| alexpetralia wrote:
| I am surprised nothing about sociality shows up in your list.
| the-chitmonger wrote:
| Embarrassed to admit it, but I was a bit tunnel-visioned on
| what I could accomplish on my own to minimize the risk of
| neurodegenerative disease. I did a cursory search and found
| some articles [1][2] highlighting a similar benefit to
| continued learning/brain exercises (increased cognitive
| reserve, which may not necessarily reduce the risk of
| developing dementia but should slow its onset
| considerably).
|
| [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-023-00387-0
|
| [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038528/
|
| Edited for clarity
| tester457 wrote:
| Be wary of taking nicotine. I recall people becoming addicted
| after thinking they could handle it after reading Gwern's
| post on nicotine.
| markdog12 wrote:
| Also read this in one sitting. Couldn't put it down, so
| thought-provoking.
| xkbarkar wrote:
| I just finished this book. I felt the author could have done more
| with Charlies genius stage. Not sure why, that part just felt
| flat somehow. The rising and the subsequent decline stages were
| really gripping though. Like he was describing the thought
| process of a surprised friendly dog. Id give it 4/5. Really good
| story.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| You might like Camp Concentration by Thomas M. Disch. Similar
| sort of premise but goes further.
| xkbarkar wrote:
| Thanks for the tip. Looks really interesting. I'll check it
| out.
| bigie35 wrote:
| Read the short story just a few weeks ago. It's still one of my
| favorite. So beautiful, so haunting.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I think FfA is a bigger part of our culture than we realize. I
| use it to describe the 12 hours between waking and adderall
| wearing off and most people track (a non-frivolous comparison).
| badcppdev wrote:
| Sorry can you elaborate or provide a link to what you're
| alluding to? Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence
| booster?
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > Is Adderall generally considered an intelligence booster?
|
| I'd say it boosts ability to utilize cognition. For me it
| thins brain fog and clarifies what I can see on the other
| side.
|
| With it, I can reason to the point where learning and
| understanding happens. For a period of time. Most days.
| lasermike026 wrote:
| This book left me gutted.
| api wrote:
| A friend of mine brought this book up when she finally went on
| ADD medication. At first she was like "wow, I can function!" Then
| she remembered reading this story and says she always fears the
| medication no longer working.
|
| A classic, and increasingly relevant as we continue to push the
| limits of improving human performance and fixing sub-optimal
| neurological phenomena like depression and ADD/ADHD.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| As someone with ADHD, I have had this discussion with doctors
| numerous times. Not a single one of them have ever read F4A,
| but many were aware of the plot at least.
|
| I still warn people new to ADHD about the sinister side(s) of
| medication. One of the issues I learned real quick during the
| shortage of the past few years is that what ever is "given" can
| be "taken."
|
| I have a decent enough job that provides me a stable life.
| Nothing to write home about. However, when I was off medication
| for bits during the shortage, I noticed that my life was built
| on a house a cards. I managed to create a life that I could not
| sustain without medication. Everything worked out in the end,
| but I got a nice glimpse of the what awaited me, and it's a
| long fall back to rock bottom.
|
| It's made me a bit paranoid in the sense that I feel like I
| have to be overly cautious about financial and occupational
| decisions (not a bad thing, I suppose). If I were to buy a
| house with a certain level of income or take on a new role, I
| need to be certain that in a "worst case scenario" that I can
| still chew whatever I bit off.
| jjice wrote:
| This story is part of the reason I'd never want to know about
| where I land intelligence wise compared to other people. No
| matter the outcome, I don't think it could be good. I it's below
| average, I'll feel limited. If it's above average, I'll have
| added pressure of self expectations and maybe arrogance. That's
| not the case for everyone, but I'm happy where I am currently.
|
| Back to the story - the use of grammar and spelling that progress
| throughout the story is so simple, but such a great way to
| portray his progress aside from the content of the story.
| gmadsen wrote:
| How is that possible to not know? Have you never worked on a
| team?
| yurishimo wrote:
| I mean, there is a difference between an informed estimate
| and knowing for sure. Maybe that person you always work with
| is not the brightest programmer, but maybe they don't care
| about it as much as you. People can demonstrate intelligence
| is many different ways.
|
| Plus, if they doesn't want to know, why does it matter? It's
| their life to live in ignorance. For this specific topic, I
| don't see any harm in leaving your actual IQ number a mystery
| for the cosmos.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't know how they would know for sure. The result of a
| test? I'm sure it differs among domains in any case.
| icedchai wrote:
| As an 1980's "gifted" kid, believe me, they made sure you
| knew. IQ tests in 3rd grade, "enrichment" classes 3x a
| week, taking the SAT in 7th grade for some special program.
|
| Later in life, most of these gifted kids were total
| disappointments. I know I am.
| throwway120385 wrote:
| I was a 1990's "gifted" kid and would later come to
| appreciate the enrichment classes as an opportunity to
| interact with other kids who wouldn't make fun of me for
| knowing things and being able to figure things out fast.
| In the "normal" track you have to learn to hide all of
| that quickly or you get picked on. Once a week I could
| experience being normal.
|
| If the expectation was that I would end up saving the
| world or something then sure I'm a disappointment, but I
| like to think I've gotten pretty far considering where I
| started.
| icedchai wrote:
| I definitely enjoyed the enrichment classes. I didn't
| feel challenged again for years, until AP classes later
| in high school.
| yurishimo wrote:
| Oh, don't get me wrong, I was a "gifted" kid too. Turning
| 30 this year. I was in advanced classes from around 4th
| or 5th grade when they started separating us (suburban
| Texas) and then went to a special high school where I
| graduated with an associates degree and my high school
| diploma. Not trying to brag, just to relate and say I've
| been there.
|
| I wouldn't say I was a disappointment, but I certainly
| didn't go as far as even the "smart" kids from my own
| graduating class. I know many of them are "real"
| engineers working for companies we all know and doing
| important work in hardware, architecture, civil projects,
| and aerospace. I feel dumb compared to them.
|
| At the same time, I have a successful career in software,
| no debt, happily married for almost 10 years, moved to a
| different continent, etc etc. Sure, am I "smarter" than
| the average Joe? I guess, but knowing that information
| doesn't change anything about my life. If I took a real
| IQ test, I think I would also feel some sort of
| disappointment or pressure to live up to expectations or
| better myself in some way.
|
| Idk; I guess that's why I made my original comment. The
| utility of knowing your IQ is "above average" is so
| useless to me, I'm not sure why anyone would want to
| knowingly saddle themselves with that knowledge. Be free,
| be happy, and be yourself.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| One of the major issues is that IQ has basically no
| cardinality to my understanding. We can all agree that
| 105 score is "smarter" than a 100, but we cannot discern
| to what degree.
|
| I've read some conjectures that IQ is quite accurate
| below average, but seems to fall apart rather quickly the
| further one starts looking at scores above 100. But who
| knows? I'm just some random dude with Internet access.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| It reminds me of the Lewis Terman study. Terman was a
| psychologist and intelligence research that studied the
| lives some n > 5000 "gifted" children over the course of
| his entire life (and their entire lives too). In fact,
| the study is still going on to my knowledge.
|
| Anyway, of the all the gifted children studied, many of
| them went to be fairly accomplished but never became
| anything noteworthy -- doctors, lawyers, teachers,
| researchers, etc..
|
| However, two of the children that didn't meet the cut for
| the study due to not having a high enough IQ actually
| went on to win a Nobel Peace Prize separately in separate
| fields. Those two individuals were Luis Alvarez and
| William Shockley.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| Just because you think you're the smartest person in the room
| doesn't make it true.
|
| While not the literal morale of the story of Flowers for
| Algernon, it's one of the big themes, i.e. your beliefs and
| understanding of your intelligence and the world around you
| change drastically with your "actual" intelligence.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > Just because you think you're the smartest person in the
| room doesn't make it true.
|
| According to one (or more) of the annual Stack Overflow
| Developer Surveys, didn't something like over 90% of
| developers think they were better than the average
| developer?
|
| My point is that I agree with you. What one thinks isn't
| always the reality.
| Mordisquitos wrote:
| Having a clear picture where you fall with regards to a broad
| population is indeed very hard, particularly if we consider
| all the different dimensions of intelligence: mathematical
| ability? musicality? problem solving? negotiation? emotional
| intelligence? planning ability? lateral thinking?.
|
| At best, by working in a team all you can achieve is to
| (rightly or wrongly) estimate your level _within the team
| itself_ , but only with regards to the type of intelligence
| which is most used in the given context. And, given that the
| team members have most likely been selected for or were
| motivated to join because of their relevant abilities, the
| team is subject to selection bias.
|
| As a result, on average, you are most likely to be very close
| to the perceived "average" intelligence of the teams to which
| you belong. Hence why impostor syndrome is so common in
| highly skilled professions -- as a milder version of the
| Peter principle [0], people tend to climb to the level where
| their skills are average.
|
| It is only when comparing the intelligence (or other
| abilities) of team members that are not relevant to their
| task, usually when socialising in another context, that you
| may become aware of broad differences and maybe get a better
| idea of where you fall in that specific dimension.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
| Ma8ee wrote:
| I can estimate people's skill levels within different areas,
| but only get a very rough estimate of their general
| intelligence.
| archagon wrote:
| Whenever I work with someone more insightful and effective
| than me, I'm compelled to do better and get closer to their
| level. I've never had the thought that they must be more
| intrinsically intelligent.
| midn1ghtexpress wrote:
| Frankly, everyone's familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect,
| but the lack of intelligence in this story reminds me of Roog
| by Philip K. Dick. It's about a dog's paranoia regarding the
| local garbage men. He tries to warn his "guardian," but all he
| can say is: Roog.
| zabzonk wrote:
| of course, it is not actually paranoia - the garbage men
| really are evil non-human beings!
| the_af wrote:
| Phil Dick never outright states that the dog in "Roog" is
| wrong. That's the most likely interpretation, but given
| this is a PKD story, not the only one!
| alexb_ wrote:
| This just sounds like Courage the Cowardly Dog lol
| NeoTar wrote:
| Everyone thinks they are familiar with the Dunning Kruger
| effect. Probably 95% of people get it wrong.
|
| [I am not a psychologist, but here is my summary of how I
| think the real effect works...
|
| Let's say we have a skill we can be assessed on a scale of
| 1-10. 1 is worst, 10 is best.
|
| The popular perception of the Dunning Kruger effect is that
| people lower on the scale, say 2 or 3, rate themselves highly
| - say 7 or 8. And people who are higher - say a 7 or 8 - rate
| themselves more modestly - say a 5 or 6. i.e. people who are
| less skilled rate themselves as being better performers than
| people who are better.
|
| The actual effect is a lot weaker, and a kind of reversion to
| the mean. If you are a 2 or 3 you may rate yourself a 4 or a
| 5. If you are a 7 or an 8 you may rate yourself as only a 6
| or a 7. Less skilled people are well aware that they are less
| skilled, but may underestimate the degree of the effect.]
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| > Everyone thinks they are familiar with the Dunning Kruger
| effect. Probably 95% of people get it wrong.
|
| The Dunning Kruger effect effect, eh?
| 0xEF wrote:
| You can't call out a percentage of people you plucked from
| thin air on not understanding something, then qualify your
| understanding as your own interpretation.
|
| Are you aware that your whole post just said "Nobody
| understands the version of this thing in my head?" This us
| a studied thing. You need sources and conclusions drawn
| from them, not your own speculation (not that it was
| horribly off the mark, but come on, man)
| kevmo314 wrote:
| Sure they can, it's called a joke.
| 0xEF wrote:
| Oh my god.
|
| I'll see myself out.
| NeoTar wrote:
| Fair point - I just didn't want to make a post saying
| '95% of people get this wrong, but I'm not going to tell
| you how!' - the message is presenting, in my own
| simplified form, what I understand is the popular
| understanding of Dunning Kurger, versus how I understand
| the effect manifested in the study.
|
| Of course my understanding is also based on some probably
| misremembered media, combined with a five minute
| refresher on the Wikipedia page, so it may be equally
| erronious. Please do you own research.
| forgetfulness wrote:
| I await your peer-reviewed study on the Journal of
| Redditometrics and Hacker Newsodynamics on the relative
| frequency of people misusing the Dunning Kruger effect.
| In the meantime, I think I'll stick with my own
| perception of people misusing the result routinely to
| mean that stupid people think they're geniuses, because
| that's all I ever see myself.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| >"Everyone thinks they are familiar with the Dunning Kruger
| effect. Probably 95% of people get it wrong."
|
| How sublimely apropos!
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| I discovered that intelligence is like height. It helps with
| the ability to reach but effort matters more. I was lazy for
| twenty years and put effort behind the wrong energy.
|
| If I understood risk, consistent effort, and emotions better, I
| would have retired in my mid twenties.
| areyes wrote:
| What would you have needed to understand about risk and
| emotions to have retired in your mid twenties?
| bingleboy wrote:
| If i retired in my mid twenties I think I would still hate
| myself. Knowledge of algorithms doesn't feel like labor to
| me it still feels like a curse. I'm pretty braindead and
| hardly self-sufficient now but I'm glad I never took any of
| the big payouts I had presented to me in my youth. I still
| don't know what I would do with myself if I had any
| significant amount of money that wasn't earned off labor
| but instead me selling my stake in companies / projects /
| what-have-you.
| jimcsharp wrote:
| Performing formalized risk assessments can provide you with
| insights about a risk you're thinking about taking. I think
| it helped me take the right risks and leave the workforce
| early.
|
| Emotionally? Just* ignore them and pursue the thing that
| pays you the most. It's boring and it's unhealthy and it's
| hard and it's not romantic.
| Ferret7446 wrote:
| Unfortunately my experience disagrees. Past a certain
| threshold, effort does indeed matter more, but most people
| don't meet that threshold.
|
| If you're here, then there's a good chance you're in a social
| bubble where you rarely interact with people below that
| threshold.
| archagon wrote:
| This is precisely why I will never take an IQ test.
| margalabargala wrote:
| > "Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do,
| because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a
| Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better
| than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear
| green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to
| play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're
| too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear
| black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta."
| -- Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
| hirvi74 wrote:
| I believe you are right in your hesitancy. I was administered
| an IQ test as part of the diagnostic process for another
| medical condition. To be honest, I wish I was never shown the
| results. Now, to be be fair, I did kind of intentionally dodge
| a few questions and did get in a slight argument with the
| proctor over one of the sections. But I doubt either one of
| those actions had much of an impact on the grand total of my
| score. I did end up receiving a medical diagnosis, and was
| informed that my IQ is not an accurate assessment of my
| intelligence due to the test not being calibrated for people
| with my disability. Still, seeing that that I had 2.5 SD
| between some scores did kind of explain some things about my
| past.
|
| Of course, IQ is highly debated and all that. I think there is
| _some_ merit to IQ, and I also think intelligence is far more
| complex than what can be measured on a test. Still, I wish I
| never knew my score because it forever lives in the back of my
| mind rent free when applying for jobs, trying to learn new
| skills, etc.. I 've always had low self-esteem, so perhaps it a
| matter of personality when it comes to these things.
| nottorp wrote:
| Isn't this a grievous act of piracy? Daniel Keyes only died in
| 2014 so this story should be under The Holy Copyright (r) (tm)
| until 2089!
|
| All repent and praise the Mouse!
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I was gonna say, I don't think piracy like this is allowed on
| HN. Of course, piracy and the like is only a thing if someone
| enforces it, so as long as there's no takedown notices to HN or
| the site that hosts it there's nothing to do I suppose.
| nottorp wrote:
| Holy $DEITY, i did the math. Flowers for Algernon was first
| published in 1959 in story form... this means it will be
| under copyright for 130 years.
|
| Of course this is a masterpiece and isn't likely to get
| lost... but which copyright holder is going to keep the B and
| C lists available for legal access for the whole 130 years?
|
| And speaking of which, is the story form of Flowers for
| Algernon available legally anywhere? The lengthened book form
| yes, probably. But personally I think the original form is
| better.
|
| Thanks Disney.
| dsign wrote:
| Tons of people scared of mental and other forms of decline here.
| Hey, I got news! It's 2024. We understand a fair deal more of how
| our biochemistry works. We have more computing power than ever,
| and it's going to be increasing thanks to the crazy amounts of
| computing power our latest AIs need. That means that we can
| understand even more of how our biochemistry works by doing
| exactly what each drug company is doing: running computer
| simulations. If your eventual decline scares you, it's _unlikely_
| that you can change your outcomes. But not _impossible_. It 's
| still perfectly rational to find your peace in resignation, but
| it's not the only option anymore.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| There are a lot of things that can already be done - for me I
| have ADHD related dopamine dysregulation resulting in brain fog
| so I take slow acting dopamine reuptake inhibitors in the form
| of low dose modafinil. I also take strict care of my diet,
| sleep and other medications and I feel as sharp as ever. And
| since I'm already on top of it I do hope that I can maintain
| this into old age. I have a friend and former work colleague in
| his early 50s that is clearly suffering from a similar
| worsening ADHD brain fog but I've been unable to convince him
| to do anything about it. Every time I try he acts as if it's
| the first time I'm mentioning it. He knows he has memory issues
| but considers it more of a problem for other people since he is
| still able to cope within his daily routines. He is very anti-
| medication and thinks there is nothing really wrong with him. I
| think some medications and lifestyle changes could clear up his
| brain fog and bring him back to full mental capacity. I don't
| think he is past the point of no-return physically but there is
| no way for me to convince him to try meds, so in effect he's
| past the point of no-return mentally. It's like watching a slow
| motion train wreck that is still preventable but all my
| attempts at preventing it have thus far been ineffectual and
| likely always will be.
| damontal wrote:
| Either way you will certainly decline and eventually die.
| keiferski wrote:
| It's interesting to compare this story to the movie _Limitless_ ,
| which has a fairly similar premise, but ends on a positive note.
| _Algernon_ seems to have more influence, probably because of it
| is fundamentally a kind of morality tale, but I actually kind of
| prefer _Limitless,_ [0] as limited as its plot is.
|
| There is something motivational about it, which is probably why
| there are so many YouTube productivity videos with the
| soundtrack. [1] I get the same feeling from _The Last Samurai_ a
| book (unrelated to the Tom Cruise movie) by Helen DeWitt, which
| is about raising a genius child.
|
| I don't know what the psychological effect is called, but there
| does seem to be something significant to the idea that it's
| inspiring to read about/watch extremely intelligent people
| flexing their intelligence.
|
| 0. The film is based on a book, _The Dark Fields_ , which doesn't
| seem quite so positive, although I haven't read it.
|
| 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BRQ9neSrw
| trylfthsk wrote:
| Can also recommend the Ted Chiang story _Understand_ [1], which
| adds in a dash of _The Most Dangerous Game_.
|
| [1] https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40835
| keiferski wrote:
| Ah yes I read that one too and it's another good example.
| javajosh wrote:
| I love Ted Chiang and that story is a banger. The movies like
| Limitless, Lucy or Phenomenon don't really take the concept
| to its conclusions. Limitless posits day trading, or
| politics, as the highest goal. Lucy goes post human in a
| silly, fantasy way. Phenomenon was pretty cool except for the
| telekinesis. But Understand sort of hits all the bases and I
| really like the thesis that there is an irreducible,
| existential struggle between Utilitarianism and Aesthetics.
| And of course, the realization that the protag is actually
| the bad guy. Not a huge fan of the idea of "programming"
| another person with engrams and random stuff in the
| environment, to like, die, but it's more plausible than
| telekinesis!
|
| He also wrote the best, IMHO, time-travel story ever written:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merchant_and_the_Alchemist.
| ... A gorgeous little tale.
| markdog12 wrote:
| Incredible story. Would love if anyone has any similar
| recommendations.
| UncleSlacky wrote:
| Maybe Awakenings?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakenings
| darkwizard42 wrote:
| I actually found this story from a previous HN thread and was
| absolutely blown away. Such an excellent short story.
| havblue wrote:
| There's also a great Star Trek episode, the Nth Degree, where
| Barclay becomes the smartest man alive. The cast is typically
| annoyed with him so it's great to see the looks of admiration
| in their faces as he's suddenly able to solve engineering
| problems faster than Data, brings Beverly to tears in an acting
| scene they perform together and is confident enough to "make a
| pass" at Troi.
| markdog12 wrote:
| By far the best episode, IMO.
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| This was the basis for the film Charly [1] (disclaimer: I've read
| the story but have not seen the film).
|
| [1[]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charly_(1968_film)
| sampa wrote:
| tear-squeezing teen novel
|
| PS When I read it was so fake when the then-genius protagonist
| (that is on above-human level) finds it oh-so interesting to talk
| to that woman-professor.
| dizhn wrote:
| That twist could be seen coming from a mile away. Years and years
| of media consumption probably. ("Seinfeld is not funny")
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| It's 50 years old and has been parodied and copied many times.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Not only that but the author specifically wanted to write a
| "classic tragedy". Of course it hits familiar story beats.
| eismcc wrote:
| After my class read this book in high school, we wrote the author
| and he responded. How often does that happen in today's schools?
| TheHypnotist wrote:
| Writing the author or the author responding?
| LeafItAlone wrote:
| Probably not often, the author died in 2014.
| Topgamer7 wrote:
| I think he was referring to schools writing to authors. Not
| this author.
|
| Maybe referring to the author responding too.
| bartvk wrote:
| Amazing huh? Me and my daughter finished this Dutch bedtime
| story book, and we wrote the artist to to tell him how much we
| liked his work. We actually received a heartwarming reply back,
| in which he gracefully accepted the compliment, and wished us
| well.
| jacoblambda wrote:
| It depends what the book is. For science fiction (or fantasy)
| stories like this, it's pretty common. And many are actually
| pretty active on social media as well.
|
| Probably the most well known example is Neil Gaiman who is
| extremely active on tumblr, at least prior to Elon used to be
| extremely active on twitter, and would regularly drop into
| discussions of their works.
|
| Other notable examples (albeit less active) off the top of my
| head include James S.A. Corey (Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank) and
| Andy Weir.
| neogodless wrote:
| Just yesterday, my spouse was unpacking and came across a stack
| of envelopes containing correspondence I had received from
| authors I'd written to as a kid. I know then it felt really
| magical to have them write to me, especially since most of them
| were actually hand-written and discussed what I said
| meaningfully.
|
| I don't remember it being a result of a teacher prompting me,
| though I suspect it was. They weren't books I read in school,
| but perhaps a teacher asked us what books were our favorites
| and had us send out letters. They're all laminated, too, which
| makes me think the teacher(s) took them and preserved them for
| us.
| macintux wrote:
| The only celebrity mail I recall writing, definitely as a
| class requirement, was to Carl Sagan. I was very disappointed
| to receive a form letter from his secretary in response.
| mvkel wrote:
| I wouldn't say it's unusual.
|
| Whenever I read a good book, see a great film, or appreciate an
| art piece, I try to track down the creator to send them a note
| of thanks. I'd say maybe 30% reply?
|
| That said, I can't imagine creating something that people are
| still directly impacted by 60 years later. Software just
| doesn't seem to work like that
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| I do this with bands I really like, particularly newer groups
| whose first "hit" I cannot get out of my head. Few respond,
| but the point is I directly give them more money than they'd
| get through their label's playcount.
|
| Hint to artists: put up a bitcoin receiving address on your
| portfolio (it'd make it a bunch easier).
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Elie Wiesel responded to one of my specific questions [in his
| classroom response letter, decades ago]. Very powerful moment
| (hopefully not staged by my great English teacher of
| yesteryear).
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| The movie "Charly" made from this book is good, and it's on
| youtube.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKcWihdna3I
| hzay wrote:
| I love this story. It's a lot more humble and nuanced than the
| similar one by Ted Chiang called "Understand".
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| Musical tribute by Kathy Mar:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIg8Mo_EyDw
| abraxas wrote:
| This is the original short story. I recommend that people read
| the full book instead or at least read the book first to avoid
| spoilers. It's at least as good as the short story but expands on
| the ideas and the story line significantly.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| There is also a terrible 1968 movie called "Charly" that is
| worth watching just for the motorcycle scenes.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Does the book add significant new ideas or is it just more
| explicit about the consequences? I generally love scifi for the
| ideas much more so than for story and am torn between the book
| and the short story.
| abraxas wrote:
| The main thrust of the story (the main sci-fi component) is
| contained in both. But it is fleshed out better in the full
| book. However, neither is a story that contains a ton of
| novel Sci-Fi ideas. For that I would direct you to stories
| and books by Greg Egan.
| ajmurmann wrote:
| Thanks! Yep, Egan is one of my favorites
| nottorp wrote:
| > It's at least as good as the short story but expands on the
| ideas and the story line significantly.
|
| I don't know about this one (I only read the story) but every
| time I've read a full novel that was originally a short or
| novelette it felt dragged out. Even when I didn't know
| beforehand it was made out of a short.
|
| It's sad that the market for shorts is basically gone.
|
| Oh... wait! Let's go on a tangent.
|
| I used to subscribe to Asimov's on Kindle before they kicked
| separate subscriptions out and left only Kindle unlimited
| available...
|
| Asimov's went to some dubious solution through some distributor
| that had their own mobile app, so I didn't renew there.
|
| Well guess what: I checked Asimov's again and now they still
| have the dubious app but it looks like you can subscribe
| directly on their site and get epubs and pdfs! Guess I wasn't
| the only one who didn't like the dubious app...
|
| There is hope for shorts after all...
| throwaway98797 wrote:
| this is why i don't take adderal
|
| i dare not glimpse what i can be for to lose it seems like a
| terrifying fate
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| I have ADHD and I took Adderal for a while and it definitely
| does not make you smarter. It makes you more focused and there
| are plusses and minuses to that.
| bingleboy wrote:
| My experience with Adderall in my adolescence was that it
| made me more obnoxious towards my romantic partner and that
| when we did share affection while i'd want more things like
| my lips just felt numb. Doing more isn't always better.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| For me, Ritalin came with attitude problems but not
| Adderall. My sons work better with Ritalin. Meanwhile, my
| sister has no access to healthcare so anything at all would
| work better.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > his is why i don't take adderal ... i dare not glimpse what i
| can be for to lose it
|
| Counterpoint. Each day I'm gifted some hours where I can think
| more like normal.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I know a lot of people who are on ADHD medication and they're
| universally positive about it; nobody says they lost something.
| What they gained is mental silence so that for the first time
| in their lives they can think and focus clearly. Also emotional
| stabilisation.
| drc500free wrote:
| It can be a mixed bag, and I personally don't take stims
| anymore.
|
| But avoidance of medication just makes me thinks of the deaf
| people who oppose treatment because they worry they wouldn't
| be culturally deaf anymore.
| icedchai wrote:
| I remember reading this in 7th grade for summer reading.
| Enjoyable book!
| mbb70 wrote:
| You will experience decline across many axis of your life as you
| age. An exercise that helps me accept this is to frame my
| identify in terms of things I will not lose.
|
| - I like to hike, but what I really love is to be in nature and
| surrounded by trees.
|
| - I like being funny and quick-witted, but what I really love is
| to laugh and see other laugh.
|
| - I like to dance, but what I really love is to feel the rhythm
| of music in my body.
|
| Obviously some of this is self-delusion (I'd also like to be
| young, strong and smart) but I find it helps.
| klibertp wrote:
| My biggest fear. The nightmares I had for years after reading.
| They returned, years later, when observing Alzheimer's from up
| close, in family members. No way out, no cure. Memory, reasoning
| capabilities, character, everything that makes you yourself
| decline, disappear; you're still breathing, but you're more dead
| day after day. And then, when you stop being aware of all that...
| does it make it better? or worse? I don't want to imagine this.
|
| Two follow-ups: "Rainbows End" by V. Vinge. Maybe there'll be a
| cure. Or "Choosing to Die" by Terry Pratchett. Maybe there's no
| cure and there won't be. At least, you can decide to go on your
| own terms, as a person still, not a vegetable yet.
| nanolith wrote:
| I'm of the belief that in such a situation, a pre-cognitive
| decline "living will" or dead man switch is appropriate.
|
| If I were diagnosed with dementia, I'd build automation to
| ensure that I'd appear to die a natural death when I enter the
| steep slope of cognitive decline. It's as easy as tying the
| results of frequent cognitive tests into a moving average that
| triggers my medication dispenser to start mixing in a toxin and
| or substituting key medication that keeps me alive with a sugar
| pill. These days, without the right medication, I'd be dead
| from "natural causes" in a week.
| irrational wrote:
| How would you do it if you didn't take any medication? The
| most medication I've ever needed to take is an aspirin once
| or twice a year. I'm trying to think what other method I
| could use in place of substituting mediation.
| nanolith wrote:
| Well, I would strongly advocate that such a system be used
| only after a diagnosis, at which point, you would be placed
| on medications to slow the progression. At that point, this
| would be seen as a rather innocuous thing by family
| members, since it's a machine meant to help you to remember
| to take medication that you need to help with your
| dementia.
|
| I have considered other machines -- again, as a theoretical
| exercise -- but ultimately, my decision process was that it
| had to maintain the plausible deniability to family members
| that I just died of natural causes. Allowing family to
| believe that I opted out because I felt that I was a burden
| would certainly lead to trauma beyond death from natural
| causes or an accident.
|
| I'm a strong believer in having the power of euthanasia.
| Part of the reason why dementia frightens me is because it
| would strip me of this agency. I currently suffer from
| heart failure, and dementia is a comorbidity in the later
| stages. Being able to choose a dignified end, hopefully in
| 30-40 years, is important to me.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Having ADHD I've often wondered how I could even do a deadman
| switch. I'd eventually forget to renew it when I was
| otherwise perfectly fine.
| extragood wrote:
| There was something I was supposed to do today.. huh. Must
| not have been important.
|
| << KILLBOT ACTIVATING >>
|
| oh no
| nanolith wrote:
| It really has to be part of the routine, and there needs to
| be automated nagging in place to ensure that it goes off
| due to programmed conditions, and not due to neglect.
|
| I think this is especially important in cases of dementia.
| Daily routines will become one of the last things to go, as
| long as there is good nagware in place to keep you in line.
|
| I use nagware to remind me to take my medication, do my
| Duolingo practice, do my nightly checkins to GitHub, feed
| the various critters that don't or won't remind me
| themselves, and do my various work rituals. Weekly,
| monthly, and annual reminders (doctor appointments and
| birthdays) are also important.
| niemandhier wrote:
| I have an assisted-suicide packt with my wife, that is
| probably the easiest solution.
| nanolith wrote:
| For sure, if you can trust your partner to assist you with
| this, and if you can guarantee that your partner will not
| face legal consequences, this would be a great option.
|
| Dementia poses a legal wrinkle, in that in many
| jurisdictions, assisted suicide requires consent at the
| time of the procedure. In many states in the US, especially
| in the south, assisted suicide is a boogeyman that runs
| against prevalent religious beliefs. In this case, someone
| with diminished capacity may be seen as unable to give
| consent, which could land the assistant in legal trouble.
|
| This is why I like the idea of automation that acts on
| objective measures, with fail safes in place. Likewise, if
| after "doing the deed", the system erases itself and the
| firmware on the pill dispenser is glitched out, then the
| whole thing can look like an accident. A letter can be sent
| ahead of time to the family attorney, only to be opened
| under suspicion of foul play, which can clear up any
| potential investigatory wrinkles if law enforcement gets
| involved.
| badRNG wrote:
| I'm fairly certain in the US you cannot legally consent
| to being killed.
| thesh4d0w wrote:
| Wikipedia has a map - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assis
| ted_suicide_in_the_United...
| nanolith wrote:
| It depends on the jurisdiction. A half dozen states now
| permit assisted suicide in the case of terminal illness.
|
| There's also an interesting bit of case law and state
| statutes that deals with "drug cocktails", which when
| combined, will lead to death. A physician can prescribe
| these in certain places without getting in trouble if
| certain criteria have been met.
|
| Either way, where this is legal, it requires that the
| person be of the capacity to consent, which someone with
| dementia cannot do.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Not true. I helped my mother fulfill her wishes, and
| faced no prosecution. My lawyer helped.
| credit_guy wrote:
| > It's as easy as tying the results of frequent cognitive
| tests into a moving average that triggers my medication
| dispenser to start mixing in a toxin
|
| You appear to me to be the type who never writes any bugs in
| their code.
| nanolith wrote:
| Or, someone who would thoroughly test such a system and
| formally verify it long before use, as it would literally
| be a life or death thing...
| pc86 wrote:
| Oh right we'll just "formally verify it," all good then!
| klibertp wrote:
| What's closer to "bug-free" (here, inside the cave) than
| formally verified software running on verified hardware
| in a distributed[1] system?
|
| [1] Because "you can't type-check being hit by
| lightning"...
| lapetitejort wrote:
| It works on my brain
| Analemma_ wrote:
| That's fine in theory, but the problem is that many, possibly
| most, Alzheimer's patients report that they are happy and
| don't want to die, even well into severe cases. Whose
| preference should get priority, past you or present you?
| Maybe the internal experience of severe Alzheimer's isn't as
| bad as you are imagining, but if your living will is
| ironclad, by the time you realize that you'd have no way to
| signal it, and so you just get murdered.
| nanolith wrote:
| The consciousness living in my body at that point may very
| well be happy, but that consciousness would not be me. I'd
| be gone, except perhaps in rare instances of lucidity.
|
| Sure, there is a Ship of Theseus argument to be had here,
| but I am very much opposed to being a burden on my loved
| ones, and if nothing were to change with my mind, that
| opposition would remain. I've seen first-hand the suffering
| that Alzheimer's inflicts on loved ones, and that's not
| something I would EVER consent to while in my right mind.
| The very idea horrifies me.
|
| That the alien consciousness that would be inhabiting my
| body at that point doesn't want to die, and holds a few of
| my memories, is of little consequence to me. Even if this
| experience is pleasant, at that point, it's not my
| experience -- what little of "me" is left to experience it
| -- that I care about.
| danielheath wrote:
| If the old you is already dead - why should it get to
| decide whether or not to kill the new one, which wants to
| go on living.
| nanolith wrote:
| It's not about _me_ , it's about the trauma that my husk
| causes to loved ones.
|
| I'm a firm believer in euthanasia. I should get the
| choice while I am able to make that choice. If future me
| had the capacity to choose, future me would choose the
| same.
| butlike wrote:
| I've been thinking about the question: "where will all the
| people go?" and instead of you having to do all that. Why
| don't we just pair the serial killers with the people who
| want to die? The right-to-die folks get what they want, and
| the "serial killer"-types get to pull the proverbial trigger,
| and we get to interview them after.
| hattmall wrote:
| Would you prefer to suffer through something like cancer, fully
| aware of your decline and unable to do anything but with the
| will to do so? Or just be completely unaware of what is going
| on but not necessarily in poor health? Dementia is certainly
| terrible in a unique and disturbing way for the afflicted and
| people that care about them, but Im not so sure some of the
| more understandable alternatives would be preferable.
| user_7832 wrote:
| If you're asking what's worse, body dying with a a good mind,
| or mind dying eg in dementia but good body, the answer is
| almost 100% the latter being worse.
|
| I know someone who had Alzheimer's. Was in excellent physical
| shape, had biomarkers of someone 20 years younger. Would go
| for daily walks for decades, consistently did yoga etc.
|
| The issue, with late stage Alzheimer's (and possibly dementia
| in general), is that the brain starts to forget _so_ many
| things it 's not even funny (it never was). You forget to
| swallow water. You forget to chew food. You forget what the
| bathroom is for. It's far from "living with dignity", even if
| the body is still physically capable. I think lock-in
| syndrome is the only other medical situation I'd consider
| similarly traumatizing.
| Ntrails wrote:
| > It's far from "living with dignity", even if the body is
| still physically capable.
|
| It would be abhorrent if you understood what was going on,
| but if you did you wouldn't be in that state. I'm not sure
| whether in general terms Dementia is as traumatic for the
| sufferer as the observer who attaches value to a historical
| person (who for all intents and purposes is _gone_ )
| vidarh wrote:
| There's often a long overlap, though. Both my
| grandmothers died with Alzheimers. We'lll never know how
| long _they_ knew, but in retrospect it 's clear they knew
| of the decline for quite some time.
|
| My mothers mother avoided hospital until it became too
| apparent to everyone around here that my grandfather
| tricker her. She'd make jokes about her failing memory
| for years, and while some of it might have been genuine,
| in retrospect odds are she noticed it was getting bad and
| was obscuring it with humour.
|
| For years afterwards, she would forget conversations
| partway through them, but clearly be aware that something
| was wrong. E.g. for some time she recognised me, but
| would wonder when I got there and how long I'd been
| there, and occasionally my name and who I was would slip,
| but she was otherwise lucid enough to understand that
| this was not normal.
|
| My dads mother managed to hide the decline until one day
| my grandfather was going in to hospital for a minor
| operation, and she refused to get out of bed. The last
| time I saw her before that, she seemed lucid and held a
| conversation. I never had another conversation with her,
| though she lived another decade - she went non-verbal
| almost overnight, but it was clear this wasn't some
| sudden physical change; she'd held it together until
| then, and gave up. It might be her cognitive decline was
| faster, and less cruel, but we really don't know if it
| was, or if she just managed to conceal it until the very
| brink.
|
| How much after that she managed to hold on to enough to
| recognise any of us - including her husband we don't
| know, because shortly after she went non-verbal she
| mostly stopped moving.
|
| But one of the cruelest parts of Alzheimers is what it
| does for those left behind - my grandfather spent a whole
| decade in his 70's and 80's walking to the nursing home,
| sitting with her all day, every day, then walking home,
| after she was for all intents and purposes gone.
| ghufran_syed wrote:
| People with severe alzheimers have a major problem with
| short-term memory. So if they are in an environment where
| everything is the same as it has been for a long time,
| then can manage a long time, because their _long-term_
| memory is fine. But when something changes (like your
| grandfather going into hospital), it can often completely
| destabilize them and they often don 't seem to get back
| to their prior level of functioning. I'm sorry your
| family had to go through that.
| squigz wrote:
| Out of curiosity, have you seen dementia first-hand, or
| are you just making academic assumptions?
| pc86 wrote:
| Having first-hand experience from a care perspective
| doesn't give anyone any more insight into what's going on
| from a biological or mental standpoint.
| lanstin wrote:
| I don't think that could possibly be true unless you are
| yourself very limited in your cognitive capacity.
| Spending many hours with someone as their cognition is
| eroded by disease process, how can you help learning
| about the disease and the consequences? It would be like
| raising children and ending up not understanding more
| about developmental psychology. Not saying it will purge
| your thoughts of all mistakes, but you will learn a lot.
| Even simple things like the end of the day is a low point
| of cognition for dementia patients. The cycle between
| forgetfulness and poor nutrition. How the rhythms of
| conversation can last longer than the content of the
| conversations. How music can be a comfort when no words
| matter. How one can forgot one's children yet still have
| the ability to see if they are hiding upset feelings. The
| strange mosaic of skills and abilities that make up our
| full humanity.
| criddell wrote:
| My dad died with Lewy Body Dementia and it was absolutely
| terrible. He was hallucinating terrible things and would
| be up all night terrified.
|
| I called him once when he was in the hospital and had to
| be restrained. He begged me to come get him because he
| thought he had been kidnapped and was being held in a
| barn somewhere. There was no convincing him that the
| people around him were doctors and nurses who were trying
| to help him.
|
| After I told him I couldn't come (I was in another
| country at the time) he begged me to call the police. By
| the end of the call he told me the barn was on fire and
| he was going to burn alive. It was enough to convince me
| that I needed to be in control of when and how I die.
|
| My dad had no idea what was going on and he was 100x
| worse for it.
| Ferret7446 wrote:
| Worse for whom? The latter seems a lot less distressing for
| the subject (assuming you have the "blissful ignorance"
| dementia and not "constant fear" dementia"), the former
| sounds like a novel form of torture.
|
| There's a reason we sedate people undergoing most medical
| operations.
| klibertp wrote:
| > Or just be completely unaware of what is going on but not
| necessarily in poor health?
|
| It's not either-or, it's both. It takes time to reach the
| point where you're "unaware". Before that, you're fully aware
| of what's happening and that there's no escape. After that
| point, it will probably get "better" for you, the patient.
|
| But it also gets way, way worse for everyone around you. With
| cancer, you're still yourself - you die as the person you
| were. With dementia (or Alzheimer's at least), you die twice,
| and people around you are left to tend to your corpse, which
| happens to move and eat (even if you forget to chew and
| swallow) for years after you're gone.
| vidarh wrote:
| Exactly, as I've mentioned elsewhere, both my grandmothers
| got Alzheimers, and I have basically nothing but a couple
| of vague memories of them for the last few years of each of
| their lives, but their partners spent years tending to
| people who were already gone, both seeing them whither
| away, but also in effect losing so much of what was left of
| their own lives.
|
| To me, they pretty much died once they stopped recognizing
| us. For one of them that was very soon after we realised
| something was wrong, and yet her body survived a decade
| after her mind was gone and it was awful seeing how it
| reduced her husband who spent all of those years in the
| same nursing home doing nothing but tending to her.
|
| My other grandfather died of cancer a few years into his
| wife's alzheimers hospitalisation and frankly it feels to
| me like he got the better way out of him and his wife (but
| largely because it was a very aggressive cancer and he went
| during an attempted operation; maybe I'd have thought
| differently about it if he'd struggled with it for years).
| the_af wrote:
| Both scenarios scare me terribly. I wish I'll never have to
| find out which is worse, not for me or for any of my loved
| ones, but of course this is very unlikely...
| 13of40 wrote:
| One thing I wonder about: My dad had dementia and ended up
| pretty batty toward the end, though it came in waves and he
| was pretty lucid when he decided to "go". As I get older, I
| notice myself forgetting things more, but it mostly bothers
| me in the context of forgetting to do things at work. If I
| were retired, I'm not sure how much having a terrible short-
| term memory would affect my level of happiness. I can see
| myself living like my mother-in-law is now, in a kind of
| unagitated rolling 3 minute window of perception. Terrible
| for the people who have to clean up after me, but not
| necessarily so much from the other side of the glass.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| Throw in the late Edward Wellen's "Mind Slash Matter" for
| another variation.
| fairity wrote:
| Too many of us are attached to our intelligence. I love this
| story bc it's a reminder that we should value personal
| excellence over intelligence. By personal excellence I mean
| making the most of the intelligence you're given.
|
| The arc of intelligence in Flowers of Algernon is the same arc
| we'll all experience over our lifetime. With old age, we all
| lose our mental faculties. If we value intelligence, in and of
| itself, that loss will be very painful. But, if we value making
| the most of our intelligence, we are resilient.
|
| Applying this framework to Charlie, there's much less to be sad
| about. He made the most of the intelligence he was gifted, and
| that's what really matters.
| the_af wrote:
| > _Too many of us are attached to our intelligence_
|
| I think Alzheimer's is scary because it's not just about
| intelligence. If it was just that you become dumb(er), I
| wouldn't mind it that much. I must be an exception, but
| beyond a certain threshold (I wouldn't want to be drooling
| idiot) I'm not _that_ attached to my intelligence. I 'm
| painfully aware that I'm average and that I had the luck of
| having an education and a stable home that other, more
| intelligent but less fortunate people than me, didn't.
|
| I think Alzheimer's is scary because your whole personality
| goes. Cognitive functions. Memory. You stop being
| independent. You cannot do the simplest things by yourself.
| Things become scary and you're not sure why. You are alone,
| surrounded by strangers.
|
| If there was a progressive illness where you got less
| intelligent, but still able to function and tell who your
| loved ones are, remember things, and at least understand
| where you are and your new place in the world, to me it
| wouldn't be half as scary as Alzheimer's.
| boppo1 wrote:
| As another reply has stated, losing some intelligence is not
| so terrifying.
|
| Alzheimer's is. I've seen it up close over its course twice.
| It's as bad as people imagine. You never forget the sound of
| someone drowning in their own saliva.
| nox101 wrote:
| > With old age, we all lose our mental faculties.
|
| Citation needed
|
| AFAIK it's not remotely true that "we all lose our mental
| faculties". Plenty of people do not
| mrmuagi wrote:
| I thought it was well understood that your mental/physical
| potential peak when you are young and degrade thereafter?
| E.G. comparing 26 year old self to 86 year old self.
|
| But a saving grace is the degradation can be combated with
| exercise both mental/physical.
|
| I am not sure how much of aging is understood, so I
| hesitate to mention stuff like DNA damage.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| I think that's a total misconception. I think the myth
| that "the brain stops developing at 25" was an apocryphal
| conclusion from a study where they simply stopped
| measuring past 25 and that either the same study or other
| studies found many brain faculties don't plateau, ever,
| even in advanced age. I also heard that it's highly
| variable from person to person how the brain develops,
| like some 8-year-olds had faster development in some
| regions than some 30-year-olds.
|
| One thing's for sure though: we're still in the stone age
| of neurology.
| fragmede wrote:
| so primitive. but we're finding things out, from
| ultrasound surgery to cut out the addiction center of the
| brain, to influencing motivation/treating depression with
| magnetic/electrical fields with TMS and tdcs, we're ever
| so slightly making sharpened stones and crude axes of the
| stone age we're in
| viraptor wrote:
| There's a difference between slowing down and losing
| cognitive abilities. It's one thing to not be able to
| solve very complex problems anymore and another to not
| remember how to use a toothbrush. I don't think anyone's
| really disputing that we're on average more capable in
| 20s-40s.
| may_mccheese wrote:
| In medical school we were taught that basically everyone
| gets alzheimers, or would get it if aged up to a certain
| age (200, 300, etc). You could make the same argument for
| cancer - actually in that vein prostate cancer is a big one
| people die _with_ but not _of_. When you study the body
| enough you realize that every system at every micro /macro
| level is failing slowly with age, but we can only pick on
| one of them as the cause of death.
|
| Re: citation needed : failed literature search link needed
| as pre-requisite
| dmd wrote:
| > With old age, we all lose our mental faculties.
|
| What? No. That is not at all true. Nearly all of my relatives
| - other than the one who had alzheimers - were as sharp as
| ever up until they died.
| roody15 wrote:
| Well said. The more I read and attempt to understand LLM and
| AI the more interesting the parallels to the human mind. Our
| conscience mind is similar to a model and weights are applied
| in the training of our model in a variety of ways. Parents,
| school, environment, illness, books, video games ,
| relationships, religion, etc all work to help fine tune our
| model and in essence develop our presented conscience self
| (well maybe ... ). Breaking down of the neurons leads to the
| model itself breaking down and the conscience person we know
| is lost.
|
| Perhaps there is more than us than just our conscience
| personality and the essence that vibes with the larger
| pattern of life and reality itself is more than our little
| personalized highly tuned version of "me".
|
| Interesting times to be alive for sure.
| foobarian wrote:
| I always thought it would be neat if there were some dangerous
| or lethal jobs that people like this could sign up for and go
| out in a blaze of glory. I know I'd sign up! Like Spock fixing
| that warp core :-)
| lainga wrote:
| cf. the many elderly who volunteered to clean up at Fukushima
| hathawsh wrote:
| Fascinating. Here's one article about them:
| https://www.npr.org/2011/09/12/140402430/japanese-seniors-
| se...
| metalliqaz wrote:
| I don't think they expected to die from it, though. More so
| that they knew they would die of old age before they could
| develop cancer from it.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| Maybe Spock was just playing the long game. Knew he would be
| resurrected by space magic and get to pon farr with the
| rescue party.
| chaostheory wrote:
| There are preventative measures. The easiest and cheapest one
| is cardio exercise. I can't run anymore, but I find the Quest
| VR headset to be a great way to do cardio workouts since you're
| just playing video games. Much easier to do and less excuses
| than having to go to the gym.
| dirtyhippiefree wrote:
| Daniel Keyes wrote a book in 2000 about writing the
| book...Algernon, Charlie and I...
|
| The ending has the author talking to the scientists doing the
| research described in Flowers for Algernon.
|
| Science wasn't anymore put off by fiction than the scientists
| currently resurrecting the woolly mammoth (see novel Jurassic
| Park)...
| js2 wrote:
| Apropos essay from a recent segment of _This American Life_ :
|
| _On Recognition, Caring, and Dementia_ :
|
| https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.111...
|
| Radio segment:
|
| https://www.thisamericanlife.org/823/the-question-trap/act-t...
| mlhpdx wrote:
| Like others, this story was very impactful on me (and still is).
|
| Over the years, though, my understanding of "intelligence" has
| evolved and I'm of the opinion today that "it" is several
| independent (but not unrelated) things: the abilities to learn,
| to remember, to recall, to connect, to imagine are all manifest
| in different combinations to different effect. That complexity an
| nuance shows in people and explains so much.
| echelon_musk wrote:
| Parodied by Always Sunny in Philadelphia S09E08 "Flowers for
| Charlie".
|
| Also referenced by the TV show Lost:
|
| https://lostpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Books_on_Ben%27s_shelf
| haunter wrote:
| The film Poor Things recently reminded me to Flowers to Algernon
| a lot
| youngNed wrote:
| yup.. Flowers of algernon, meets Baribie, meets The Lighthouse
| !
|
| really great movie
| mncharity wrote:
| When creating a business process, designing for resilience in the
| face of changing staff and resources, can be an objective.
| Perhaps it should also be prioritized when designing one's own
| life processes? Consider two elders, one with a long-standing
| practice of using written notes in their life, and one without.
| As their memories decline, one compensates with notes, and
| degrades gracefully. The other, loses life scope far more
| sharply. And by the time the need becomes pressing, adding such
| practice becomes difficult. Just something I ran into ~recently.
| alganet wrote:
| Makes me wonder if I even know how to read.
| msgilligan wrote:
| "I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my
| life."
|
| Regardless of one's political opinion of Ronald Reagan, his
| letter announcing his Alzheimer's diagnosis is relevant and
| poignant.
|
| https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/reagans-...
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Nancy Reagan was a _pretty decent_ president [for Ronnie 's 2nd
| term, probably its entirety]. Not my favorite oligarchy
| figureheads, but definitely not the worst. May they rest in
| peace.
| swyx wrote:
| was she running things? this is the first i am hearing of it
| monknomo wrote:
| Don't you mean Nancy Reagan's astrologer was a pretty decent
| president?
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| Careful there...
|
| NOTICE WARNING CONCERNING THE REPRODUCTION OF THIS LETTER
|
| The Reagan Library is authorized to make copies of this letter
| available only for the purpose of private study, scholarship or
| research. This letter may not be reproduced for publication
| without the expressed consent of the personal representative of
| Ronald Reagan. For more information contact: Ronald Reagan
| Presidential Foundation 40 Presidential Drive Simi Valley, CA
| 93065 1-805-522-2977
| roflyear wrote:
| What are you saying? It is on the internet, it's fine to link
| to public sites...
| margalabargala wrote:
| They didn't reproduce the letter, they simply showed you
| where the people authorized to make such a reproduction have
| posted the letter.
|
| If it makes you feel more comfortable, here is instead a
| reproduction by PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperie
| nce/features/reagan-...
|
| and another by Time, including an image of the original
| handwritten letter: https://time.com/4473625/ronald-reagan-
| alzheimers-letter/
|
| neither of which include the encumbrance that the Reagan
| Library added to their copy.
| IggleSniggle wrote:
| Presumably both Time and PBS obtained consent! I thought it
| less likely that a HN commenter had received explicit
| permission to reproduce, and just wanted to make sure
| poster didn't get in any trouble. But really, I was just
| making a dumb joke about conspicuous displays of power,
| wherever they may come from.
| cooper_ganglia wrote:
| This is one of my favorite books to think about recently.
|
| Technology augments us and removes our ability to do things any
| other way. This can be good, but it can also be bad. AI will be
| the drug that turns society into Charlie. I hope it will last.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| As someone prescribed a medication that affects the mind, I
| remember this book haunting me for some time after reading it in
| grade school. Skimming it again today, that same fear returns.
| Dementia and/or Parkinsons will eventually take my mind from me.
| After having two grandparents pass away in the last year, I've
| come to terms with that part. But _when?_ Will it be worse for
| me?
| stanac wrote:
| I am currently reading the book (halfway trough) so I am not
| going to read the paper out of the fear of spoilers. I just want
| to recommend the book and say that the book is incredible,
| emotional roller coaster like nothing I have read so far.
| owendlamb wrote:
| I haven't read this, but I'm a fan of "But Never a Key," a song
| whose lyrics reference the story:
|
| https://dirtpoorrobins.bandcamp.com/track/but-never-a-key-de...
|
| https://open.spotify.com/track/5NXt7fGhxFGfU6h1m9x06A
|
| https://youtu.be/IFR06LNqJVs
|
| The album it's on (Deadhorse, by Dirt Poor Robins) is also
| excellent if you like apocalyptic cinematic rock with a sci-fi
| radio drama vibe.
| iamkoch wrote:
| My absolute favourite book.
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Flowers for Algernon (1965) [pdf]_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31875692 - June 2022 (207
| comments)
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Daniel Hayes' only other published book is a non-fiction
| biography of Billy Milligan, a free man who walks among us,
| responsible for multiple murders; Billy's multiple personalities
| were neat to explore, particularly his alter-ego "David, the
| Keeper of Hate" [I can relate].
|
| ----
|
| Algernon's funeral literally made me cry the first time reading,
| and still ruminates fumy tears to this day.
| apeescape wrote:
| I loved this book when I read it the first time, really touching.
| The theme most personal to me was that the brainier you are, the
| lonelier you get.
| fallinditch wrote:
| Check out the 6 album cycle that depicts the gradual degradation
| of dementia: Everywhere at the end of time by The Caretaker. A
| brilliantly imaginative work.
|
| https://youtu.be/wJWksPWDKOc
|
| Chatgpt: This ambitious project was released in stages (or
| "stages") from 2016 to 2019, across six albums, each representing
| a different phase of dementia. Through his distinctive use of
| manipulated pre-World War II ballroom music, The Caretaker, aka
| Leyland Kirby, explores the progression of the disease, from
| subtle early signs to the total disintegration of memory and
| understanding. The work is both an artistic exploration and an
| empathetic representation of the condition's impact on the human
| mind and memory.
| taeric wrote:
| I can't underline enough how much this book impacted me. In ways
| that I'm fairly confident I do not understand. I certainly didn't
| understand the book when I was a kid, but it still stuck with me.
| I think it was my first real exposure to the trope of people
| being thoughtlessly callous to people on presumed worthiness.
| anotherevan wrote:
| Many years ago now I saw a stage play based on this book. I went
| in with a few reservations but was pleasantly surprised with how
| good it was.
| oldstrangers wrote:
| I own a copy of the April 1959 issue of The Magazine of Fantasy &
| Science Fiction when this first appeared in print.
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