[HN Gopher] Exploring Bauhaus: Revolutionary design school that ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Exploring Bauhaus: Revolutionary design school that shaped modern
       world
        
       Author : thunderbong
       Score  : 93 points
       Date   : 2024-03-11 05:11 UTC (17 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.playforthoughts.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.playforthoughts.com)
        
       | johncoltrane wrote:
       | See also, the Ulm School of Design:
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm_School_of_Design
        
       | throwawayyy9237 wrote:
       | I'm no expert in design, but it's really interesting to see the
       | signs that a design "won". That is, when you see echoes and
       | influnces of it everywhere.
        
       | snowpid wrote:
       | It is worth to note, that more architects love the design than
       | the average German. There is a huge district in the south of
       | Berlin called Gropiusstadt (designed by Walter Gropius) which is
       | so unpopular that only lower class people live there. While pre
       | Bauhaus buildings are very popular in Germany. Bauhaus and its
       | predecessors is more a problem than a solution.
        
         | aeyes wrote:
         | I'd argue that this has nothing to do with Bauhaus because this
         | district was planned to have 90% social housing. Of course
         | cramping 30k+ low income workers (or unemployed people) into a
         | small space is going to cause trouble.
         | 
         | And if I remember correctly the original plans were changed and
         | the buildings ended up much higher and denser to meet the goals
         | of the city.
         | 
         | Edit: Found this article which states that the plans were
         | modified by Wils Ebert, Gropius had no say in this.
         | https://www.goethe.de/ins/au/en/kul/arc/bau/21319032.html
        
           | snowpid wrote:
           | I still see my point standing that modern architecture is
           | very unpopular in Germany.
        
             | qwytw wrote:
             | Brutalism (which generally most/many people seem to
             | dislike) isn't the same as Bauhaus though.
             | 
             | > modern architecture is very unpopular in Germany
             | 
             | IMHO it has much more to do with the constraints of the 50s
             | and 60s. All major cities in Germany were destroyed and had
             | to be rebuilt fast and cheap. Of course buildings from the
             | late 19th/early 20th century might have looked a lot nicer
             | but they were also massively more expensive (would you
             | rather many cheap and ugly high density buildings or a few
             | better looking expensive ones, it's not like there were
             | that many other options).
        
               | snowpid wrote:
               | Many, many, many, many of pre WWI buildings were
               | constrained by budget and had poor inhabitants. Today
               | they are very popular (and nobody poor can afford it
               | anymore)
        
               | usrusr wrote:
               | Where I live it was a close call between rebuilding in
               | modern layouts (car-friendly and that entire "block in a
               | park landscape" approach that I consider the biggest
               | failure of 20th century architecture, nobody likes these
               | "parks" that are too close to buildings to feel public
               | and too open to feel private) and rebuilding in the old
               | layout, with houses on the edge of the street enclosing
               | hidden backyards, roof lines closely matching pre-war
               | roof lines.
               | 
               | Old layout won and today everybody is very happy about
               | that. But wherever there are old stock buildings and post
               | war reconstruction buildings in the same street, the old
               | ones are considered much higher standard, despite best
               | efforts to avoid modernism in the reconstruction. From
               | today's perspective, the actual age difference between
               | one group and the other is laughably small. But in the
               | rush to rebuild post war, the "good enough" threshold was
               | so much lower than pre WWI the difference echoes on
               | through the renovations to this day.
        
               | lukan wrote:
               | Because labour was cheap and plenty, when they were built
               | with hand with bricks. Also some survivorship bias, as
               | many badly build ones, did not survive the bombs so well.
               | 
               | After WW2 it was mainly cheap concrete.
        
               | bratwurst3000 wrote:
               | I am from Germany and your point is valid. Older
               | buildings are preferred because the alternative is those
               | build in the 50s fast and cheap.
               | 
               | But it's untrue that only rich people live in old
               | buildings. Maybe in some parts. But most old buildings
               | are in the poorer regions of the inner city. Most rich
               | people I know live in modern buildings. Some in older but
               | very well remade ones...
        
         | rickdeckard wrote:
         | Might be controversial, but in my opinion the impact (and long-
         | lasting aesthetic) of Bauhaus is much more visible in the
         | industrial design of modern products than it is in
         | architecture.
         | 
         | After all, a consumer product can win by individual choice of
         | the consumer, with failed attempts of interpreting Bauhaus
         | design disappearing again, which makes it easy to cite good
         | examples of lasting Bauhaus style over time (i.e. showing
         | similarity of Braun products with Apple design, etc.).
         | 
         | But a failed interpretation of Bauhaus in _Architecture_
         | continues to live among us for decades, watering down the value
         | of well-executed Bauhaus design with an appearance of being a
         | cheap bland building...
        
           | ethanbond wrote:
           | Every Chipotle in America is part of the Bauhaus lineage.
           | Wildly common, if not "popular."
        
         | qwytw wrote:
         | Gropiusstadt isn't exactly the best example of Bauhaus though.
         | IIRC Gropius original plan was changed a lot to maximize
         | capacity/minimize cost, the buildings were only supposed to
         | have 5 stories or less etc. I don't think those issues have
         | anything to do with the the specific style.
        
         | keiferski wrote:
         | For anyone that wants to read a critical take of Bauhaus and
         | modernist architecture in general, check out the very funny
         | _From Bauhaus to Our House_ by Tom Wolfe.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Bauhaus_to_Our_House
         | 
         | His other book on art was pretty good too, and both were
         | received very poorly by their respective industries, which is
         | probably a sign that he was on to something.
        
         | joarv0249nw wrote:
         | Siemensstadt seemed pretty nice.
        
           | usrusr wrote:
           | Those ambitious Weimar era housing estates in Berlin are all
           | awesome, with their careful balance between efficiency and
           | preventing excessive cookie-cutter.
           | 
           | It's interesting to contrast them with their less modernist
           | "Gemeindebau" contemporaries in Vienna, which share some
           | ideas and contrast in many others. In my opinion the Vienna
           | ones deserve far more attention than they get (than they get
           | outside Vienna?). I guess their biggest hindrance to fame is
           | that there are so many of them, and that the biggest ones
           | that unsurprisingly draw all the attention (e.g. the match
           | made in heaven of Karl Marx Hof and George Washington Hof)
           | aren't quite as interesting as their entirety, in particular
           | the continuity through Anschluss, war and the aftermath.
        
         | lukas099 wrote:
         | > so unpopular that only lower class people live there.
         | 
         | Sounds like Bauhaus was better at building affordable housing
         | than other styles.
        
       | rickdeckard wrote:
       | Good article, but a weird choice to focus so much on Bauhaus
       | architecture and so little on Bauhaus and its influence
       | especially on industrial design (IMO a much more significant
       | impact of Bauhaus in the modern world).
        
         | xnx wrote:
         | Indeed. To my untrained eye there seems a clear line from
         | Bauhaus to Dieter Rams to Apple
         | (https://www.cultofmac.com/188753/the-braun-products-that-
         | ins...)
        
         | JusticeJuice wrote:
         | They had a teaching ethos that architecture was the center of
         | design education, and that all skills, such as material
         | practice, aesthetic graphic skills, color theory, etc., all
         | lead towards building design.
         | 
         | I suspect this attitude spills over into what people view as
         | their 'best' work.
         | 
         | https://smarthistory.org/the-bauhaus-and-bau/
        
           | rickdeckard wrote:
           | Agree, but I'm not sure that explicitly Bauhaus building
           | design actually "shapes the modern world" as stated in the
           | title.
           | 
           | I'd argue that only a fraction of well-designed buildings in
           | your surrounding actually embody the Bauhaus ethos and its
           | derived aesthetics, but possibly a majority of well-designed
           | products around you do.
        
       | pgtan wrote:
       | That article not even mention Bauhaus in Tel Aviv!
       | 
       | https://bauhaus-center.com/bauhaus-in-tel-aviv/
        
       | trevithick wrote:
       | Earlier HN discussion on this topic (different article):
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30270286
       | 
       | I mentioned Tom Wolfe's book "From Bauhaus to Our House." I don't
       | think he likes Bauhaus much.
       | 
       | https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41001.From_Bauhaus_to_Ou...
        
         | rendang wrote:
         | An even more extreme response to modernism is Ann Sussman's
         | claim that it originated from trauma and mental illness:
         | 
         | https://commonedge.org/the-mental-disorders-that-gave-us-mod...
         | 
         | Although I agree with her that traditional, ornamental design
         | is more beautiful, something bothers me about her line of
         | argument; it seems cheap and patronizing to take ideas
         | expressed with rigor and good faith by talented people and
         | dismiss them w/o engaging them intellectually. Nevertheless,
         | its an interesting point of view
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | > it remains a symbol of a modern approach to architecture and
       | design.
       | 
       | As if that's a good thing. I see someone else has already
       | referenced "From Bauhaus to Our House."
       | 
       | The bottom line is just this: Bauhaus is _ugly_. It does not
       | uplift people 's spirits and it does not make us happy. The
       | authors inadvertently give the best argument against it:
       | 
       | > Many also believed that only dedicated craftsman, with their
       | hands-on approach, could produce the highest quality work. They
       | argued that machine production inevitably led to a decline in
       | aesthetic quality. Furthermore, they contended that individuals
       | surrounded by such unattractive surroundings lacked an
       | appreciation for beauty.
        
         | lukas099 wrote:
         | I'm not an architect or anything, and I think Bauhaus looks
         | awesome. And sure I wish we could all live in perfect craftsman
         | houses painstakingly put together with a hammer and nails but
         | that's not realistic.
        
           | hammock wrote:
           | My idea of a perfect house involves post-and-beam
           | construction with no nails at all and only traditional
           | joinery :)
           | 
           | Although I know a guy who takes down really old buildings and
           | regularly sees hand-wrought nails, those are cool too
        
             | ainiriand wrote:
             | Do you mean traditional Japanese joinery? Because for sure
             | the traditional western joinery involved nails.
        
               | hammock wrote:
               | Mortise and tenon. Found all over the world, some of the
               | earliest examples are in europe
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | You also have whatever it is using pegs -
               | https://yankeebarnhomes.com/2017/12/14/post-beam-vs-
               | timber-f...
               | 
               | Though that may be just a variation of mortise and tenon.
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | False choice. It's not "my way or insane expense."
        
         | atoav wrote:
         | You probably don't know how utterly dysfunctional for example a
         | typical _kitchen_ looked before Bauhaus. See Magarete Schutte-
         | Lihotzkys Frankfurt Kitchen:
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_kitchen
         | 
         | The cliche Bauhaus style people know is not the thing that had
         | the impact, everything else was.
        
           | astrange wrote:
           | Is that supposed to be a good or bad kitchen? It looks hard
           | to move around in, but the colors are nice.
        
             | usrusr wrote:
             | It's a amazing kitchen. This isn't V8 suburbia, where
             | garages are bigger than what an entire working class family
             | or two lived in in interwar Europe.
        
             | atoav wrote:
             | No I don't think you understand: _before that_ kitchens
             | generally looked very different and were much more
             | dysfunctional. The reason you don 't find it very
             | spectacular from a 2024 perspective is because that kitchen
             | design was so successful it changed how kitchens looked
             | after it. So you will certainly find better (but also
             | worse) kitchens today, but that kitchen design had a ton of
             | impact on how things are looking today.
             | 
             | Before that the typical kitchen furniture were single
             | freestanding objects, like this stove: https://upload.wikim
             | edia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Fr...
             | 
             | But it is more than surface, Schutte-Lihotzky went and
             | measured how long certain tasks were taking and optimized
             | the layout and objects of the kitchen to minimize the waste
             | of time, aomething that before that wasn't really a thing
             | in residential kitchens.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | That itself says it was a designed kitchen for a particular
           | use case.
           | 
           | And it incorporates things like varying countertop heights,
           | etc.
           | 
           | Looks workable to me - remember kitchens were not "open
           | concept" at the time, nor made for multiple people operating
           | in them at once.
        
             | Shog9 wrote:
             | I think atoav was crediting Bauhaus with the modern
             | kitchen, with the Frankfurt Kitchen as an early success
             | story.
             | 
             | Which is both fair and faintly damning, as what has been
             | lost along the way (functional design that makes good use
             | of limited space) was perhaps more important than the clean
             | lines and shiny veneer which was retained.
             | 
             | Or maybe I'm just projecting. Been cooking on glass-topped
             | stoves for the past few months and that tends to make me
             | irritable.
        
         | lostemptations5 wrote:
         | Bauhaus is kind of fun and cool-- even playful. I totally
         | disagree that it's depressing.
        
         | wnc3141 wrote:
         | Love that book. Tom Wolfe's dry wit is a joy.
         | 
         | However the modernism originating with bauhaus can be applied
         | tactfully with enhanced functionality (I.e larger unobstructed
         | spaces- but in limited fashion. Too often it strips the
         | humanity away from our spaces.
         | 
         | A stunning example of such modernism: Aarhus City Hall, Denmark
        
         | Log_out_ wrote:
         | The problem is also nowadays the decoration, ornamental or
         | pictures could be machined into wall elements quiet chiefly.
         | Imagine a house with walls of family history moments. Today
         | bauhaus is mostly a symbol of the terror rule of the economic
         | over the aestetic and the suppression of individualism in
         | architecture.
        
       | paradox460 wrote:
       | If you are ever fortunate enough to book a stay at the Aspen
       | Institute or Aspen Conference Center in Colorado, you're in for a
       | Bauhaus treat.
       | 
       | My family used to take fairly regular trips up there; the LIGO
       | planning meetings were held at the ACC, and so we'd typically
       | lodge either there or in nearby Snowmass, which also is home to a
       | large number of Bauhaus designs.
        
         | Scene_Cast2 wrote:
         | Colorado in general has some amazing architecture, including
         | residential architecture. I saw a lot of this style when I was
         | there: https://kellyandstonearchitects.com/portfolio/completed-
         | port...
        
           | codethief wrote:
           | Does this style have a name?
        
       | Dig1t wrote:
       | I often wonder how much of the design aesthetic is due to Apple.
       | 
       | Apple turned bauhaus into the "premium" aesthetic, at least in
       | the US. So many companies just copy their premium style from
       | Apple with slight variations, I wonder how much of its presence
       | in our world is simply due to everyone trying to associate
       | themselves with the "premium"/minimalist aesthetic that Apple has
       | cultivated.
        
         | RamblingCTO wrote:
         | I think it's the other way around. Apple was heavily inspired
         | by Braun/Dieter Rams. When I look at this work I immediately
         | think premium. And this was long before Apple.
        
       | hackernoteng wrote:
       | The future will be shaped by Minecraft. I foresee very blocky
       | looking buildings.
        
       | JR1427 wrote:
       | Did it bother anyone else that in the photo of the Wassily chair
       | in the article, only one of the little feet is in the correct
       | orientation?
       | 
       | Without commenting on the overall design, the fact that this can
       | apparently happen smacks of bad design to me, at least in the
       | details.
        
         | kansface wrote:
         | Those are removable for carpet ... or maybe addable for hard
         | floors is more accurate. Someone just put them on upside down
         | on the front and then photoshopped out all context. See
         | https://www.knoll.com/product/wassily-chair
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | I think what made these good design is that they were pioneers.
         | Consider the eames chair. Plenty of people lust after one, they
         | are worth more than a used car. I have sat in one but there
         | wasn't any magic or anything. Any recliner feels the same. But
         | that being said my perspective is from a world post eames
         | chair. Before this chair maybe there wasn't a comparable
         | experience at all among what people were usually buying for
         | chairs.
        
       | kjkjadksj wrote:
       | I think the real sell with bauhaus design is that it was and is
       | super cheap. Look at these examples in the article. Simple forms.
       | Simple materials. Cheap and fast. Compare that with an earlier
       | building like the empire state building and we see the exact
       | opposite. More complex forms. More craftsmanship required to
       | create the overall decor and trim designs, and no doubt more cost
       | compared to a bauhaus style building one could make with some
       | chicken wire, plaster, and cheap windows. Its kind of a shame
       | then that the international standard today has basically been the
       | fast and cheap bauhaus inspired 5/1 style building, in a sort of
       | race to the bottom away from the building forms that once defined
       | a place.
        
         | hammock wrote:
         | Cf. IKEA
        
           | kjkjadksj wrote:
           | Not just ikea but all the cheap melamine board furniture out
           | there today takes inspiration from the bauhaus philosophy.
           | And also the fact melamine board is so cheap and comes
           | finished.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | It's also the real problem with Bauhaus (and IKEA) - if you're
         | going for cheap and fast, you're not going to stop at "cheap
         | enough whilst still being durable, etc".
         | 
         | IKEA has some wonderful furniture that is cheap and fast, but
         | cannot survive being moved. And Bauhaus has some cheap and fast
         | buildings, but they cannot survive being unmaintained - _which
         | is often what happens to buildings that were built to be
         | cheapest_.
        
           | milesvp wrote:
           | I think it may be unfortunate to lump Ikea in with Bauhaus.
           | While I agree with the general sentiment that Ikea tends to
           | be single use, the idea of the flatpack was truly
           | revolutionary. Shipping furniture used to be crazy expensive,
           | but the idea of designing a bookcase that could take minimal
           | space to ship and let the customer with no tools other than a
           | screwdriver and a hammer put it together was truly a leap
           | that I'm not sure many at the time were prepared to take.
        
             | antiterra wrote:
             | > truly a leap that I'm not sure many at the time were
             | prepared to take.
             | 
             | I mean, at least one other company took the leap a few
             | years before Ikea did: Sauder.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | And to be fair to IKEA they have a decent amount of higher
             | quality flatpack furniture (as do others in the space) that
             | do survive a move much better than cardboard and particle
             | board pieces do.
             | 
             | Those pieces are more expensive, usually.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | and their flatpack's just better. I've bought stuff off
               | Wayfair and the like, but Ikea flatpack is better
               | engineered to make the assembly process nicer.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | I have a dresser from Target that came flat packed, and
               | it was as nice as anything from Ikea.
               | 
               | Part of it was using "real screws" that screw into wood
               | at places, instead of twist/lock fasteners or whatever
               | those are.
               | 
               | Of course, if you also _glue_ it, you get something
               | surprisingly durable.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | to each their own I _like_ those twist lock fasteners
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | They work great until a few years later when things start
               | to get loose (at least in my experience, when embedded in
               | particle board).
        
           | baby wrote:
           | I don't see the problem with moving IKEA furniture.
        
         | patrickk wrote:
         | To your point:
         | 
         | https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/10/why-you-hate-contempo...
        
           | psunavy03 wrote:
           | I don't really hate contemporary architecture, because
           | postmodern architecture at least has some variety and style
           | to it. Modernism (especially but not limited to Brutalism) is
           | just soulless, totalitarian, oppressive, and depressing.
           | 
           | It's also ironic for the author to claim that a style which
           | peaked 100-130 years after the beginning of the Industrial
           | Revolution is somehow the fault of global capitalism, as if
           | global capitalism hadn't been a thing for 100+ years by the
           | 1950s.
           | 
           | And of course even though the author is claiming that the
           | left has flaws in their approach to architecture, they still
           | have to make the obligatory supplication about the right's
           | alleged "ulterior motives."
           | 
           | For all the severe flaws in Modernist architecture, this
           | article seems a bit of a hash, honestly. The author seems
           | trapped inside their own ideological bubble.
           | 
           | Edit:
           | 
           | > It should be obvious to anyone that skyscrapers should be
           | abolished. After all, they embody nearly every bad tendency
           | in contemporary architecture: they are not part of nature,
           | they are monolithic, they are boring, they have no intricacy,
           | and they have no democracy. Besides, there is plenty of space
           | left on earth to spread out horizontally; the only reasons to
           | spread vertically are phallic and Freudian.
           | 
           | Oh, good effing grief.
        
             | netcan wrote:
             | > the only reasons to spread vertically are phallic and
             | Freudian.
             | 
             | Lol. I agree.
             | 
             | OTOH... An over the top, ideological take on art is kind of
             | traditional in architecture. I could easily imagine a
             | reincarnated Ayn Rand argueing _for_ skyscrapers for these
             | exact reasons. Phalic inspiration representing the taming
             | of nature and challenge to God.
             | 
             | In 2024, a slapfight between Andy Warhol and a local dress
             | designer about the colour orange... That was the kind of
             | conflict avante garde artists had to have so the rest of us
             | could benefit from a stream of new artistic ideas. A
             | sacrifice.
             | 
             | These days... everyone gets dragged in.
             | 
             | I kind of like brutalism, personally. It took some bad
             | turns, but I'm hoping for a comeback. Maybe we should do
             | paint this time though.
        
               | psunavy03 wrote:
               | Skyscrapers are phallic because of the engineering
               | constraints of stacking floors upon one another.
               | Airplanes and missiles are phallic because of the
               | engineering constraints of rocketry and aerodynamics.
               | Guns are phallic because of the engineering constraints
               | of using gunpowder to propel a small metal bullet.
               | 
               | For crying out loud, form follows function and sometimes
               | a cigar is just a freaking cigar.
        
           | entropie wrote:
           | Everybody seems to hate it. From a pure optical perspective I
           | find the Pualinum in Leipzig a masterpiece.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulinum_%28University_of_Leip.
           | ..
           | 
           | But I heard it gets really hot inside, which sucks if you
           | have to study there. In my opinion, functionality should
           | always be prioritized higher than aesthetics.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | Maybe the pipeline that produces cheap product is actually fed
         | by bauhaus graduates.
         | 
         | In other words interesting iconic creations come from mavericks
         | who are self-soveriegn, while go to school, get a job, work in
         | an office type creations are a series of compromises with many
         | requirements to fulfill and many fingers in the pot.
        
         | netcan wrote:
         | >I think the real sell with bauhaus design is that it was and
         | is super cheap.
         | 
         | Cheap isn't a bad thing. The reasothat some of the best ideas
         | in architecture are irrelevant is specifically avoiding
         | integrating economics into them.
         | 
         | That said, all of modernism basically followed this path.
         | Talented, quality work in the early 30th century. A
         | formalisation of the ideas and principles.
         | 
         | Adoption by a second generation (post wwwii) who liked it
         | mostly for its legible formality... a crappy generation of work
         | as the principles were applied by those going for "good enough"
         | and no more. Same thing happened to brutalism and other
         | modernist schools.
         | 
         | An analogy might be open offices. An energetic reimagining of
         | office life by early Google or whatnot. No expense spared.
         | Reasons, ideas, ideology behind the design.
         | 
         | Pretty soon, all the lower tier companies were doing crappy
         | open offices because it's cheaper, Google do it and it's
         | better. Here read this article about idea sharing in open
         | spaces. Did I mention it's cheaper?
        
         | mmustapic wrote:
         | > Compare that with an earlier building like the empire state
         | building and we see the exact opposite.
         | 
         | > More complex forms. More craftsmanship required to create the
         | overall decor and trim designs, and no doubt more cost compared
         | to a bauhaus style building one could make with some chicken
         | wire, plaster, and cheap windows.
         | 
         | The Empire State was built in 410 days.
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | I don't know the field all that well, but my feeling is that
       | Bauhaus is overrated.
       | 
       | The architecture of the school buildings themselves is quite
       | remarkable, but as a school, it din't really work. The professors
       | were acclaimed artists, but the alumni aren't all that well-known
       | and as far as I know haven't contributed enormously to the field
       | of arts and design.
        
       | bratwurst3000 wrote:
       | Mid century design is a good example of very good bauhaus design.
       | One of my favorites.
        
       | silent_cal wrote:
       | I hate Bauhaus
        
       | crowcroft wrote:
       | I find that there's often something very subtle in Bauhaus design
       | that can make things awful very quickly.
       | 
       | Sometimes I see 'Bauhaus' style things and I think they're
       | incredible, but then very slight variations of that same thing
       | immediately look ghastly to me, but I can never quite put my
       | finger on what it is. I think there's a certain kind of purity
       | required in the design to make sure the simple look works.
       | 
       | I think this is also why Bauhaus design often ages terrible.
       | Immaculate plaster walls can look nice, but the second they age,
       | get weathered or develop a 'patina' they look awful.
        
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