[HN Gopher] New York Times is targeting Wordle clones with DMCA ...
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New York Times is targeting Wordle clones with DMCA takedowns
Author : mryall
Score : 74 points
Date : 2024-03-08 20:28 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
| mryall wrote:
| > In a statement to 404 Media, the Times said:
|
| > > The Times has no issue with individuals creating similar word
| games that do not infringe The Times's "Wordle" trademarks or
| copyrighted gameplay.
|
| Can you really copyright "gameplay"?
|
| This seems like pointless bullying by the Times, who is probably
| just upset they haven't got a positive ROI on their acquisition
| of a free game.
| standardly wrote:
| Not sure why you're grayed out - no, you cannot copywrite
| gameplay. The name "Wordle" could be protected, though, which
| is probably the case here.
|
| In any case, Wordle is too damn easy. Don't think I've ever
| lost. I recommend sedecordle for word enjoyers
| CannisterFlux wrote:
| Yeah I stopped playing it pretty quickly. There was that not-
| wordle game where you had to not get the word. It made me
| realise just how tricky failing wordle was.
|
| I still do "where taken", which is photos of countries,
| tradle for oec trade commodities and guess the game for video
| games. They're all far more interesting than guessing some
| random word.
| lastofthemojito wrote:
| Perhaps that was Don't Wordle? That was eye-opening to me
| too. Play it before NYT sues it out of existence I guess:
| https://dontwordle.com
| autoexec wrote:
| Does it use the same wordlist as wordle or have they
| specifically chosen words that would be impossible to not
| get?
| Fnoord wrote:
| Here's a curated awesome-wordle list [1]. Back in the days
| (as if it is long ago) I used a different one and had quite
| some fun with some of the clones (I didn't check this
| specific one).
|
| [1] https://github.com/prakhar897/awesome-wordle
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| This repo still being up shows they probably didn't just
| auto-takedown every repo that has the word "wordle" in
| its name at least. Often not the case with DMCA abuse.
| lbourdages wrote:
| Semantle is nice but very difficult. You have unlimited
| tries, though.
| leereeves wrote:
| Just tried Semantle, which I hadn't heard of before.
|
| I don't want to spoil today's puzzle, but after getting a
| few hints and giving up to get the answer, I don't see any
| relation between the hints and the answer.
|
| (The similarity scores are word2vec cosine similarity, and
| that's fun to see in action, but the results make me think
| word2vec isn't that good.)
|
| Edit: I tried yesterday's word and that was much better.
| Today's word might just be word2vec's kryptonite.
| pgrote wrote:
| Lingo seems like Wordle.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0kie6dPjo
|
| Maybe the copyright is on the colors on the game field?
| Kluggy wrote:
| > The New York Times -- which purchased Wordle back in 2022
| -- has filed several DMCA notices over Wordle clones created
| by GitHub coders, citing its ownership over the Wordle name
| and copyrighted gameplay including 5x6 tile layout and gray,
| yellow, and green color scheme.
| Verdex wrote:
| This smells very similar to the issue with the tetris clone
| a number of years ago. The overall issue is that while
| games aren't copyrightable, the look and feel of a game can
| be copyrighted.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_Holding,_LLC_v._Xio_In
| t...
| interestica wrote:
| Games and Other Uncopyrightable Systems
|
| Bruce E. Boyden
|
| https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar...
| c3534l wrote:
| Especially considering wordle has no unique gameplay. Its a
| very, very old game with a million variations. There was even a
| TV show called lingo or something that did competetive wordle.
| The only thing NYT owns is a brand since the game is hundreds
| of years old.
| leereeves wrote:
| Yeah, Wordle is clearly a copy of Lingo.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingo_(American_game_show)#/me.
| ..
| Fnoord wrote:
| > Amusingly, Wordle has itself been criticized over striking
| similarities it shares with Lingo, a 1980s game show that
| centered on players guessing five-letter words, with a grid
| that changes color based on accuracy.
|
| Indeed. I know this from TV, grew up with it. Was a fun
| educative program back in the days.
| lacoolj wrote:
| Pretty sure there's a new reboot of this show right now too
| JadeNB wrote:
| Siblings have mentioned the TV game show _Lingo_. I can 't
| precisely date _Bulls and cows_
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows), but it's hard
| to imagine that it (the gameplay, if not that particular pen-
| and-paper game) isn't much older than television, hence than
| _Lingo_.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| When you have the kind of connections the NYT does and the
| lawyers to go along with it, sure!
| phire wrote:
| Gameplay can't be copyrighted, but in the case of Worldle, the
| word lists are probably copyrightable.
|
| Any clone that derives their own word list is probably fine,
| but any clone that copy/pastes the exact word lists from wordle
| (especially the shorter list of 2,315 possible solutions) is
| probably infringing copyright.
| archontes wrote:
| You cannot copyright gameplay.
|
| https://www.americanbar.org/groups/intellectual_property_law...
| .
| reactordev wrote:
| but you can patent it.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > The publication has filed several DMCA copyright requests
| lacoolj wrote:
| If this is true, why wouldn't Microsoft patent the taskbar
| or directory structure tree layout pattern in Explorer?
|
| I don't think you would be granted a design (let alone
| utility) patent that is as broad as "green and yellow
| blocks have significance, is a grid of 5x6, and has a
| keyboard below".
|
| Not a lawyer though so what do I know
| AlbertCory wrote:
| No you can't.
| dabernathy89 wrote:
| You can patent game mechanics - famous example would be Legend
| of Zelda's targeting system. Apparently Nintendo is extremely
| aggressive about patenting game mechanics.
|
| https://kotaku.com/nintendo-is-trying-to-patent-some-really-...
| tomkarho wrote:
| Another example that comes to mind is the Nemesis system from
| Mordor games
| torstenvl wrote:
| Irrelevant, since NYT does not and can never (due to prior
| art) hold a patent on Wordle's gameplay. This is about
| copyright.
| dougb5 wrote:
| I can't prove it, but I am quite sure NYT got a positive ROI on
| the acquisition of Wordle. They paid in the low single millions
| of USD, which isn't much for a brand as big as Wordle had
| become by then (2 million+ daily players) and it's been used to
| drive new digital subscriptions [1]. It's diminished somewhat
| since then but it has remarkable staying power. I can tell that
| from the Google Trends data [2] as well as the anecdata that I
| and so many of my friends and family still play Wordle every
| day.
|
| [1] https://www.afr.com/technology/why-on-earth-did-the-new-
| york... [2]
| https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
|
| [Edit: And, nearly two years on, they say they get "millions"
| of players per day, and they've assigned a dedicated Wordle
| editor and write articles about the game frequently.
| (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/17/upshot/wordle-bot-year-
| in...). They're definitely not having buyer's regret.]
| autoexec wrote:
| Maybe you can't copyright gameplay, but you can still sue
| someone for infringement anyway, or even just threaten people
| with lawsuits that you know they can't afford to defend
| themselves against so they'll do whatever you want no matter
| what their rights are. The Times might even win in the courts
| if it ever gets that far. You can't copyright a musical genre
| either but that hasn't stopped successful lawsuits against
| musicians for exactly that
| (https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/blurred-lines-can-you-
| copy-a...).
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Suing when your case has no merit is a losing strategy.
| Eventually you not only lose to someone who stands up to your
| bullying, you face massive damage to your reputation;
| something media companies really don't like.
| racingmars wrote:
| This feels like a trademark question, not a copyright question.
| Seems like an abuse of DMCA; if only it were easier to ensure
| companies filing fraudulent DMCA claims end up facing real
| consequences.
| marssaxman wrote:
| Well, that just makes me want to stop playing Wordle.
| kepler1 wrote:
| A company wants to enforce its copyright, etc., fine. That's
| their right to do so. Although I beg to differ with our copyright
| laws.
|
| No, what I find objectionable about the NYT games team, such as
| their spelling bee puzzle, is that they selectively deem certain
| words not valid responses. Not curse words or words with no
| redeeming value, but words that are perceived to be derogatory
| against disadvantaged groups or "offensive". It's like an
| extension of the hyper sensitive liberal newsroom.
|
| Fine, it's a private organization and their choice. But it
| reflects in my mind a hijacking of the language by people
| oversensitized to the point of ridiculousness.
| quink wrote:
| > words that are perceived to be derogatory against
| disadvantaged groups
|
| The _game_ won't accept responses of such a nature? That
| doesn't sound too bad.
| jmull wrote:
| Oh, come on.
|
| These word games are for casual fun and enjoyment.
|
| It's really not a big deal whether a particular word is
| included or not in the dictionary for a particular game. For
| Spelling Bee, the levels appear to be calculated based on the
| word list, so while it may be a little frustrating that a
| particular real (albeit off-colored, so to speak) word isn't
| accepted, rest assured that that doesn't doesn't affect the
| puzzle's difficulty. So no harm done. IMO, if some particular
| word removes more fun than it adds, good riddance.
|
| Personally, I was most offended when "ichor" was not accepted,
| though I'm happy to say their reporting mechanism seemed to
| work, because it seems to be accepted now at least in the
| pangram game.
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| Good thing you're not sensitive.
| a1o wrote:
| Mechanics can't be copyrighted (unless it's MTG tap mechanic, it
| seems), but what is weird is apparently the projects it went
| against were in different languages that Wordle doesn't cover
| (which I think matters considering Wordle is about guessing
| words) and using a different name.
| jkaplowitz wrote:
| Lots of other games have the same mechanic as MTG's tapping.
| But to avoid legal threats from WotC/Hasbro, most of them call
| it exhausting or refreshing or other similar words.
|
| I'm skeptical that there's any valid legal claim there, but if
| it is more legitimate than well-funded big-corp lawyer
| bullying, it's either a trademark claim or a claim that any
| game with a card-refresh mechanic called "tapping" must be a
| derivative work of MTG for copyright purposes.
| trothamel wrote:
| The MTG tap mechanic was patented, not copyrighted.
|
| https://patents.google.com/patent/US5662332A/en , claims 4, 5,
| and 6 - expired in 2014. The actual symbol is also a copyright
| and trademark, I believe, but right now other games can us the
| 90 degree rotation.
|
| (Disney's Lorcana, for example, uses 90 degree rotation and
| calls it 'exerting' a card.)
| dang wrote:
| Recent and related:
|
| _NY Times issues DMCA takedowns of Wordle clones_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618193 - March 2024 (44
| comments)
| fieryscribe wrote:
| It's interesting to see them go after others for copying gameplay
| when they have done exactly the same:
| https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/jun/15/connections-ne...
| anthk wrote:
| Lingo predates Wordle and I remember that show in my country more
| than 30 years ago.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Does anyone know if anything like
| https://www.threemagicwords.app/ is going to receive a DMCA
| takedown? It is somewhat similar to Wordle and yet quite
| different.
| anthk wrote:
| This is just Mastermind with words. I remember word puzzles like
| that in several newspapers and magazines across the world for
| -decades-.
|
| In Spanish media it was usually called "Deduccion".
|
| Link in Spanish as proof:
|
| http://pasatiemposmatematicosdelaprensa.blogspot.com/2013/10...
|
| The last puzzle it's from 1999.
| ashton314 wrote:
| If someone makes a FOSS version that can be easily dropped onto a
| public server somewhere, then we should _all_ host a Wordle
| clone. (I 'm sure the code has already been written a thousand
| times over...)
| crtified wrote:
| The asset NYT bought when they bought Wordle, was to have their
| name indelibly associated with a trend that is more popular than
| they themselves are.
|
| It is simply "our name in your face, on a regular basis, for
| years" advertising, at a global scale.
|
| Case in point : here we all are, thinking and talking about the
| NYT.
|
| _That is_ the ROI.
| autoexec wrote:
| Yeah, but we're all just thinking about what a dick they are.
| Does that really count?
| kbf wrote:
| If you're looking for a Wordle game they can't take from you,
| Wordyl on Game Boy is one I've been enjoying :)
|
| https://bbbbbr.itch.io/gb-wordyl
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| It's interesting that they seem fine with blatently copying part
| of the BBC game show Only Connect for their Connections game:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/onlyconnect/comments/169j2p4/have_y...
| camdenlock wrote:
| In the end, everyone's just becoming a game company.
|
| Er, sorry; an "experience" company.
| visarga wrote:
| Are NYT still writing news, or just copyright trolling?
| ok123456 wrote:
| Doesn't the name "Wordle" and the rules for the game come from an
| article in Creative Computing in the 70s?
| ath0 wrote:
| The name is a play on the author's last name (Josh Wardle):
| https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/03/technology/wordle-word-ga...
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