[HN Gopher] Bob_cassette_rewinder
___________________________________________________________________
Bob_cassette_rewinder
Author : popcalc
Score : 432 points
Date : 2024-03-06 23:28 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| lebean wrote:
| Oh wow a Juicero of dishwashers!
| _aavaa_ wrote:
| That's not fair, at least this actually works.
| koolba wrote:
| Just like Juicero, I'm sure you could squeeze the detergent
| out of the cassette with your bare hands and wash your dishes
| by hand.
| _aavaa_ wrote:
| Except the juicero approached the squeezing portion with
| what's basically a hydraulic press rather than something
| sane. This just has overpriced detergent but otherwise a
| seemingly well thought out machine.
| raverbashing wrote:
| BRB running a survey on SF on how many people can actually
| do that...
| thedrbrian wrote:
| Dunno if I'd really want to put my hands in dishwasher
| detergent for long periods of time.
|
| It's bad enough when I get a bit on my hands refilling Bob
| colechristensen wrote:
| Don't use rinse aid products, some have been found to damage the
| lining of your intestines at extremely low concentrations.
| Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use them.
|
| https://www.aaaai.org/tools-for-the-public/latest-research-s....
| booi wrote:
| The fact that the scent stays on dishes after even multiple
| washes with detergent speaks to how powerful of a surfactant
| rinse aids are. 2/10 do not recommend.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| This article is about rinse aids used on commercial
| dishwashers. Do rinse aids sold for domestic dishwashers
| contain the same stuff?
| cyberax wrote:
| Yes, it is. And it is assumed to be safe in the
| concentrations used. This finding has not yet been confirmed
| in real studies on humans, only on tissue models.
|
| I just checked, and my rinse aid has 0.2% of ethoxylated
| alcohols. So this would be around 500 times dilution already,
| and the rinse aid is further diluted by about 100x by the
| dishwasher. The article found some effects at 1:20000
| dilution.
|
| So I think that it might be concerning, but not too alarming.
| chefandy wrote:
| Yeah it would suck if it ended up being really harmful
| because alcohol ethoxylates are in way more stuff than rinse
| aids.
|
| https://www.ewg.org/guides/substances/16368-ALCOHOLETHOXYLAT.
| ..
| cyberax wrote:
| You can make your own rinse aid, just use a bit of citric acid
| (to chelate metal ions to soften the water), a dash of EDTA
| (also a chelator), and a mild surfactant.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| But isn't it what the commercial rinse aids the article talks
| about are made of?
|
| Doing stuff by yourself is always interesting, but rince aid
| is cheap, and according to the article, apparently harmless
| at the concentrations used in household dishwashers, so
| unless you want something specific, why bother?
| Johnny555 wrote:
| _Personally i never even noticed a difference when i did use
| them_
|
| I always thought rinse aid was only needed if you have hard
| water. We have pretty soft water and like you, I found that
| rinse aid made no difference at all in drying performance or
| preventing water spots (we have no water spots even without
| rinse aid).
| jhugo wrote:
| Very hard water here. There's a tank for salt in the bottom
| of the dishwasher, as long as I keep that topped up there's
| no need for rinse aid.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| The study did not find damage at the concentrations typically
| used in household dishwashers. This is only for professional
| dishwashers.
|
| You may have a point with regard to this article though, as the
| author uses professional dishwasher rinse aid and detergent
| without real knowledge of what is happening.
|
| If you don't notice any difference when using rince aid, you
| may have very soft water. On many dishwashers (not sure about
| Bob), you are supposed to adjust the amount of rinse aid being
| used depending on your water hardness level, and for very soft
| water, it may very well be zero.
| userbinator wrote:
| _The more I think of it, the more I can draw parallel between Bob
| cassettes and those overpriced DRM-enabled inkjet cartridges,
| often costing more than the printer itself._
|
| More than two decades ago, this is the first publicly documented
| attempt at hacking printer DRM - indeed, also accomplished with
| EEPROMs in the cartridges:
| https://eddiem.com/photo/CIS/inkchip/chip.html
|
| I thought the GUID was put in the cartridge to prevent the
| machine from accepting the same one but refilled, since I know
| this is done with ink cartridges (printer remembers last N
| cartridge's IDs) so it's odd to see no other mention of that.
| rob74 wrote:
| If hacking cartridges becomes popular enough that it impacts
| their cartridge sales, they might put out a firmware update
| that does just that, but it looks like they went with the "lazy
| option" first?
| hengistbury wrote:
| Daan Tech broke their firmware update mechanism for lots of
| dishwashers in the field by losing their keys, more than once
| too. I own one such dishwasher and can't update the firmware
| without replacing the main board. They could certainly
| prevent cartridge resetting in newer dishwashers.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Which is one of the main reasons to never let "smart"
| appliances access the internet.
| zadjii wrote:
| This is a great write up, thanks for sharing. I had never heard
| of these before, and would usually be totally against a
| subscription based product like that. But the idea of totally
| bypassing their "drm" for 1/60th the cost? Much more intriguing
| johng wrote:
| That project is cool. I decided to check out his other repos and
| he has done a lot of neat stuff. I really like the duckypad and
| this thing: https://github.com/dekuNukem/daytripper
| AdamJacobMuller wrote:
| Shout out here for the youtube channel he mentions turned him
| onto the bob.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVup5ya0WVQ /
| https://www.youtube.com/user/Techmoan
|
| Mat/Techmoan has a perfectly eclectic mix of useful current
| generation hardware reviews (with his reviews skewed to things
| which Work Well, are well built and resilient vs fancy features)
| and nostalgic reviews of electronics (sometimes of things you
| never knew you should be nostalgic about!). I love his channels
| style as well, bit of funny, lots of facts, not too technically
| dense, lots of fun.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0y1pUtPGQk
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN_XeVSKqSY
|
| Great videos.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| I love this incalculably, and, calculably.
| omoikane wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27013880 - Bob Cassette
| Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM (2021), 404 comments
| JamesAdir wrote:
| I'm fascinated by the design of the rewinder. Could someone
| provide me with some guidance on where to begin learning how to
| design a board like this?
| crote wrote:
| It's quite a basic circuit board. Start with an Arduino
| tutorial to get a feeling of hooking up electronics (Adafruit
| is probably a good start), once you've got it working look up a
| KiCad tutorial to turn it into an actual PCB.
|
| The trickiest parts here are dealing with the MCU (look for
| example schematics to copy, they're probably already in the
| datasheet), sourcing parts (Mouser/Farnell/Arrow are expensive
| but have good search tools - LCSC is dirt cheap but has
| terrible search), and soldering the PCB (stick with through-
| hole parts, if at all possible). You can get a bare PCB of this
| size made at JLCPCB or a dozen other places for less than $5 -
| not including shipping.
| JamesAdir wrote:
| Thanks for the tips!
| tomn wrote:
| agree, except for
|
| > stick with through-hole parts, if at all possible
|
| These days it's more work to avoid SMD than it is to embrace
| it. Many many parts are not available in through-hole, and
| dealing with 0805 passives and 0.65mm pitch ICs is not that
| difficult (unless you assume that it is).
|
| As a bonus, you get much easier re-work, access to assembly
| services, and cheaper components.
| maeln wrote:
| It is very ironic that they sell it has "eco-compact dishwasher"
| when it require disposable chunk of plastic to use it. The amount
| of water saved will really not make up for the amount of plastic
| thrash created.
|
| From their website: "At Daan Tech, we've always believed that a
| more sustainable and fairer world is possible.", you really have
| to be cynical to write something like this and then sell a worse
| washing machine that generate lot of plastic waste.
| CharlesTati wrote:
| It doesn't require the cassettes. You can use regular
| detergent.
| ovi256 wrote:
| > "At Daan Tech, we've always believed that a more sustainable
| and fairer world is possible.", you really have to be cynical
| to write something like this
|
| I tend to assume incompetence rather than malice. The marketing
| person that wrote that piece of copy never worried about the
| lifecycle waste analysis of the project they were working on,
| because they trusted the CEO/founder that hired them, who said
| it was gonna be good for the environment. They probably aren't
| the type of person that worries about nor has the skills to do
| a lifecycle waste analysis.
| beirut_bootleg wrote:
| Permit me to disagree with about all of your conclusions here.
|
| First of all, the cassettes are returnable. This is also
| mentioned on their website. * https://daan.tech/discover-bob-
| cassette/
|
| > Each Bob cassette is returnable and reusable. We refill them
| and put them back on the market. Close the loop, lower your
| carbon footprint.
|
| You're also NOT required to use the cassettes. You can just
| throw standard dishwasher tablets in. This is mentioned in
| Bob's manual, and probably on the website as well. I've been
| doing this for years and had no issue. There is no DRM-like
| aspect to Bob.
|
| And finally, it's not a worse washing machine as you say, it's
| just smaller and more flexible (wrt plumbing), and as Techmoan
| mentions in his intro, this is a very strong advantage of Bob
| for people living in small European apartments.
|
| (source: owner of Bob)
| ShamelessC wrote:
| Pretty sure he addresses every one of your criticisms.
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| What's the carbon footprint of transporting the empty
| cassettes back for refilling?
|
| What percentage of Bob's customers bother to do that?
| pyrale wrote:
| > What percentage of Bob's customers bother to do that?
|
| Would these people use a cleaner solution anyway? I mean,
| you can say that of any refilling system, if people don't
| use it.
| bzzzt wrote:
| It's more difficult if you have lots of special
| containers (in this case with integrated electronics)
| that can only be sent back to a specific shop.
|
| My dishwasher uses detergent powder which comes in simple
| plastic containers that can be dealt with via regular
| plastic waste collection.
| mellutussa wrote:
| > cassettes are returnable
|
| Of the fraction that gets returned, how many are actually
| reused? It's black plastic with a shine to it and it'll show
| scratches easily. Does the factory even have the facilities
| to clean them out and refurbish them for next use?
| steezeburger wrote:
| Yes, tfa shows an excerpt from Bob saying they have the
| facilities to clean and reuse the cartridges.
| mellutussa wrote:
| tfa?
| ahartmetz wrote:
| The f...ine article
|
| I think the abbreviation was (and probably still is)
| popular on Slashdot
| drewzero1 wrote:
| Or, more kindly, the featured article.
| chihuahua wrote:
| It's any acronym that's often used when someone wants to
| point out that a question could have been answered by
| reading the fine article that is being discussed. TFA =
| The F'ing Article.
| ljm wrote:
| I got one because it's the only mini dishwasher that can fit
| in my kitchen. The cassettes don't clean that thoroughly
| compared to normal dishwasher tabs, so I just use those
| instead.
| avery17 wrote:
| Nj recently banned single use plastic bags. Now instead of
| people actually reusing the reusable bags forever they just
| throw them out almost every time. Everyone who buys this
| machine is not going to go out of their way to return the
| casettes. America is obsessed with convenience and will
| continute throwing out perfectly reusable things until we
| have a massive cultural shift.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Whole point of convenience stores is to be convenient.
| Carrying a big ass bag with me for the off chance I go to
| the store is just silly.
| bobsmith432 wrote:
| We keep reusable bags in the car for every time we go to
| the grocery store. I think the entire country would only
| benefit from banning single-use plastic bags nationally,
| and I'm not sure how you could have an issue with that.
| wrigby wrote:
| I mostly agree, but here in NYC I don't have a car to
| keep the bags in. If I stop at the grocery store on my
| way home from work, I either have to have planned ahead
| and put a reusable bag in my work backpack, or I have to
| buy more reusable bags (which eventually get tossed
| because we have too many of them).
|
| It's definitely better to have the bag with me, and just
| typing this out made me realize I can keep one or two in
| my backpack at all times.
| deinonychus wrote:
| I personally keep in my daily backpack a reusable Baggu
| that packs down nicely and doesn't take up much space. As
| long as you have a daily bag/purse/whatever and you're
| not strapped for space, it's pretty easily solved, yeah.
| I live in not-NYC so I also keep a bag in the car.
|
| I have some sympathy if you find yourself on a weekend
| out and about and needing to spontaneously buy some
| victuals and don't have any bag on you - but that's the
| cost of us having less litter.
| burnerthrow008 wrote:
| Well, I suppose that's perfectly fine if you're the
| wasteful sort of person who uses a personal vehicle
| instead of a bike or public transit.
|
| But what about the responsible people who actually care
| about reducing their carbon footprint by not
| unnecessarily carrying 3000 lbs of steel everywhere they
| go?
| bobsmith432 wrote:
| I live in central Alabama. Would take over 4 hours to
| walk or bike to get groceries. Not everyone lives in a
| huge city and the ones in Alabama are too dangerous to
| walk around in without concealed carrying a firearm
| (except for Huntsville).
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I was confused by this so I looked it up [0]. The point I
| had missed was that stores and delivery services still
| provide bags like before, but now they're heavier bags
| designed for reuse. And people still throw them away like
| before.
|
| Result: Now there's even more plastic in the waste stream.
|
| [0] https://nyti.ms/3R8lCse
| xg15 wrote:
| > _Each Bob cassette is returnable and reusable._
|
| Yes, in theory, which requires from you the effort of
| packaging it up, paying postage, plan time to go to the post
| office, etc - _or_ you could just throw it in the trash for
| exactly the same visible effect and be done with it. Even if
| people _want_ to mail them back, this sounds like exactly the
| kind of task that will perpetually stay on the "I'll look
| into that when I have time" list, until they finally just
| want to get rid of it and throw it in the trash.
|
| But it's good for shifting the blame, because then the
| pollution is not DaanTech's fault but those of individual
| consumers.
|
| > _You 're also NOT required to use the cassettes. You can
| just throw standard dishwasher tablets in._
|
| Doesn't this contradict what the article was saying? At least
| there was a quote from DaanTech somewhere that you have to
| have a cassette inserted to start a wash.
| sparsely wrote:
| You need a cassette inserted, but it can be empty.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Even if they ship it back, i'd really doubt the
| environmental impact of shipping something halfway across
| the country is less than a few gallons of water per
| dishwasher load.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| How much fuel needs t be burned to ship these cassettes each
| way?
| amsterdorn wrote:
| The issue is that there's no incentive to return the chunks of
| plastic to them. They need to follow a Sodastream-like model to
| apply a discount to the next order when returning a unit,
| especially with such astronomical prices.
| vmfunction wrote:
| These refill packages for dishwasher, printers are just SaaS
| for products. It is terrible and contain 'dark pattern' to
| continuously over charge customers. Just also a lazy way to try
| to make business profitable and doesn't really provide any
| benefit to the customers.
| beirut_bootleg wrote:
| Every time this gets posted to HN, the comments go straight for
| "DRM bad!", when the Bob dishwasher does NOT in fact require you
| to use the proprietary cassettes.
| SergeAx wrote:
| Can you elaborate? I found nothing on the product website about
| using off-the-shelf detergent.
| beirut_bootleg wrote:
| https://daan.tech/discover-bob-cassette/
|
| Scroll down to FAQ, and expand the first question: Is the use
| of a Bob cassette mandatory?
|
| LE: It's also mentioned in the rewind project's README.
|
| > Credit where credit's due, Daan Tech didn't completely lock
| down the machine with Bob cassettes. Once empty, you can
| leave it there and add detergents manually.
|
| https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder?tab=readm.
| ..
| AmVess wrote:
| It is absurd that it exists at all.
|
| A DRM'd cassette for dish soap. This world needs an enema.
| johng wrote:
| I like that joker quote :) but he said town I think?
| LadyCailin wrote:
| But the company itself mentions several drawbacks to not using
| the cassettes. So, yeah, it is absolutely a form of DRM. It
| doesn't totally brick your device, but it definitely reduces
| its functionality.
| 1f60c wrote:
| I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but
|
| > With shipping and VAT added, it costs a whopping PS43 ($60) for
| 90 washes! That is 48p (67c) per wash.
|
| This about matches the cost of "premium" (think Dreft, Finish,
| etc.) dishwasher detergent tablets in my country.
| re wrote:
| Those tablets are sized for a dishwasher that holds about 4
| times as many dishes, though.
| bayindirh wrote:
| > I've never heard of liquid dishwasher detergent before, but
|
| There are tons of brands. I use an eco-friendly brand when
| washing a full machine of lightly used dishes (no eggs, for
| example).
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| You can make your own from e.g. Dawn and baking soda. The
| reason you can't use pure Dawn is that it would fill your
| dishwasher with foam.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| Why bother? Powder dish detergent is so damn cheap and works
| just as well as any other dish detergent product, and better
| than packs because those don't use the prewash cycle
| properly.
| jheriko wrote:
| i like the story, but i cant help but notice that the "cassette"
| is solving a non-existent problem
|
| who the fuck has to measure a dishwasher tablet?
| uxp100 wrote:
| Do you understand it's a micro countertop dishwasher, that
| would use less detergent than a full size?
| hengistbury wrote:
| This dishwasher is much smaller, so would require smaller
| tablets to work work efficiently. Certainly possible, and Daan
| Tech sell small tablets for this use.
|
| One benefit of measured detergent is that the wash cycle can
| dispense the correct amount for different parts of the cycle,
| for example the pre-wash can dispense a small amount and the
| main cycle can dispense a larger amount. The rinse at the end
| can dispense rinse aid.
|
| This system offers more control to the machine about when
| fluids are used, though it would be much better to include
| refillable tanks instead of the cassette system.
|
| I own a Bob and use powder since mine has stopped pumping
| detergent...
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Maybe I am just naive, but when I had a table top dishwasher
| like that I just threw in a tablet or half a tablet depending
| the dirtiness and amount of dishes and I never had problems.
|
| Only reason I changed to full size one was because I got
| tired of pouring the water in each time
| skerit wrote:
| I got a new Miele dishwasher, which is able to use
| "PowerDisks". I actually find it quite handy.
| benjijay wrote:
| It seems that one cassette holds enough detergent for 30
| washes, so presumably you'd want to measure 1/30th of the
| reservoir per load. Just a guess.
| jheriko wrote:
| the story is fun, but i can't help but notice the justification
| for the cassette to being with is nonsense - solving a problem
| nobody ever had.
|
| who the fuck has to measure out a dishwasher tablet? nobody is
| who
| Waterluvian wrote:
| For being sleek and compact, that main door sure is bulbous.
| Anyone know what's inside it? The recessed window makes it look
| like it's superfluous.
| ryankrage77 wrote:
| There's some insulation, as it can heat the water.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Something doesn't add up here. It says PS43 for 90 washes, but
| the picture shows _six_ cartridges which is 180 washes? On top of
| that, it contains rinse aid and enough deep cleaning for those
| 180 washes.
|
| Compared to dishwasher tablets from the supermarket it looks like
| 180 would cost from about PS15 for supermarket own brand, all the
| way up to about PS32 for the most expensive. Then on top of that
| you have the rinse aid, deep cleaner and salt, which seems to
| account for the other PS10.
|
| Obviously this thing is significantly smaller but I think the
| assumption is you'd be running the big dishwasher half empty
| every day anyway so the cost would be the same. So it doesn't
| seem to be _that_ far off price wise?
|
| I find dishwashers in general to be an example of convenience
| addiction. The amount of dishes this thing can hold I could wash
| up by hand in about 5 minutes and, unlike the dishwasher, I can
| guarantee I'll do it properly. People forget that washing up is a
| skill like anything else that you can get good at. It only takes
| a bit of practice. But once you use a dishwasher and forget how
| to do it yourself you get addicted and think you can't live
| without it.
| alright2565 wrote:
| I'm not familiar with mini dishwashers like Bob, but the full
| size ones are definitely not a "convenience addiction". You may
| be capable and skilled at using the two/three-sink method for
| washing up, but the general population isn't and will instead
| run the tap and waste far greater amounts of heat and water
| than a dishwasher would require.
| masto wrote:
| I was about to make an argument that "there's no DRM" because
| it's a simple flash memory chip used to keep track of how much
| detergent is left, and it's totally unencrypted...
|
| But wait, could it be that the reason for the bizarre "xor 0x50"
| is so that they have a "technological protection measure" in
| place to trigger anti-circumvention rules?
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_and_Information_Soci...)
| ccppurcell wrote:
| I don't understand the casette pitch. I'm filling the dishwasher
| anyway. The tablet is like 1 more item in the dishwasher, not
| having to do that is below 1% improvement.
| ryanmcbride wrote:
| Seeing people defend the cassettes is weird. Here's how I look at
| it:
|
| 1. The company say's being eco friendly is important to them.
|
| 2. They manufacture, sell, and ship expensive plastic containers
| for their detergent.
|
| 3. The machines don't necessarily need this specific detergent,
| and will work fine by leaving in one of the "cassettes" and just
| using normal dish detergent.
|
| This means that the cassettes were never necessary, and are
| purely a separate stream of income for the company. Literally the
| printer ink method.
|
| Which means they didn't have to produce this plastic waste at
| all, they could have just allowed it to use a smaller amount of
| liquid or powder detergent (pre-portioned pods are probably too
| much detergent).
|
| Hell even if they wanted to continue with the printer ink
| approach, they could have used powder detergent in little wax-
| lined cardboard containers.
|
| Regardless of how well they're recycling or re-using the
| cassettes returned to them, the cassettes never needed to exist.
| It's more plastic taking up more space in more polluting delivery
| trucks.
|
| At the end of the day this company is selling a dishwasher and a
| detergent subscription service. It's not the worst thing out
| there and it's not creating nearly as much plastic waste as the
| fishing industry but it's still a company greenwashing itself to
| sell you more garbage.
| acomjean wrote:
| Maybe seems like "cheating" to refill as it messes with the
| business model.
|
| My experiences are with Printers and ink. A studio I'm a member
| of inherited a big epson4880 printer. Its a big heavy machine,
| well built. It came with a "chip resetter" tool for refilling
| ink carts. The printer seems to know that its using non-epson
| inks (it warns me on the little display, and I have to click
| through) but it allows them (right now filled with cleaning
| solution, but thats another storry).
|
| Newer printers don't allow this (unless you are in Europe).
| Apparently they are running out of DRM chips, and some of the
| new printers require a firmware update to use new ink
| cartridges using the older chips.
|
| One can see a day when these printers/dishwashers no longer
| have ink/detergents manufactured for them, becoming big
| paperweights.
|
| Companies never seem to want offer more expensive products with
| cheaper use costs. Maybe the problem is people don't think
| about it enough? Where I live the markets have 2 prices listed
| on the shelves. 1) the cost of the package, 2) the cost per
| unit of the package (eg cost per oz, cost per pill etc..). Its
| much easier to compare.
|
| [1] https://shop.inkjetmall.com/Epson-SureColor-P900
|
| "We are currently supplying the European Region versions of
| this printer model. They can work with a simple chip resetter
| and refillable cartridges (which we do not supply).
| Unfortunately, the USA Region versions of this printer have
| been designed by EPSON to prevent the use of non-EPSON chips
| and are designed to prevent the use of a chip resetter. As a
| result, we do not believe any 3rd party solutions may become
| available for the USA region printers for some considerable
| time until the anti-3rd party mechanism that prevents the use
| of 3rd party products is discovered and circumvented.."
| ssl-3 wrote:
| > Companies never seem to want offer more expensive products
| with cheaper use costs.
|
| Never?
|
| A regular dishwasher has the cost of production built
| completely into the purchase price, and it doesn't care what
| brand of detergent is used.
|
| It's the same with some printers, too -- including some Epson
| printers. Their EcoTank line is refillable: Need more magenta
| ink today? Just squirt some more magenta in. It doesn't have
| to be Epson-sourced ink.
| scrps wrote:
| That sucks, there used to be a company that offered a set of
| gray gradiants for epson printers for printing digital black
| and white prints that are some of the best I've seen outside
| of darkroom prints. I wonder if the drm nonsense killed them
| off but I can't remember the name atm.
|
| As for the paperweights, I have a pixma pro9000 mkii
| gathering dust after bad aftermarket carts and official carts
| being at least $100+. It is cheaper and way less time
| consuming to let a professional printer handle the work at
| least for larger prints.
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