[HN Gopher] Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
___________________________________________________________________
Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war
Author : Qem
Score : 207 points
Date : 2024-03-05 13:44 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (cpj.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (cpj.org)
| macawfish wrote:
| I appreciate that this is on here and I hope we can collectively
| handle it. Tech isn't isolated from this situation, as difficult
| as it is to admit and talk about with civility and care. A US
| military software engineer even self immolated recently in
| protest of what's happening.
|
| I don't see what's happening in Gaza as being culturally
| particular to the specific identity groups involved here. It's a
| very human situation and we are all at risk of falling into these
| kinds of collective behaviors.
| McNutty wrote:
| Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not
| become a place for political posts, nor even for posting
| regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop
| trying to make hn into reddit.
|
| Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of
| comments we already have here.
| dang wrote:
| HN's standard about this question has been stable for many
| years: some stories with political overlap are both
| inevitable and in keeping with the mandate of the site. The
| question, when it comes to the biggest political topics, is
| which stories clear that bar.
|
| I've posted about this many times, including quite a few
| explanations specific to the current topic:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324 (Feb 2024)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657829 (Dec 2023)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38657527 (Dec 2023)
|
| Here are links to lots of past explanations I've given about
| the principles we use to decide these questions more
| generally:
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.
| ..
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.
| ..
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so.
| ..
| leereeves wrote:
| If this topic merits discussion on HN, can you do something
| about the flagging? It seems like someone is flagging every
| comment to prevent discussion.
| dang wrote:
| Edit: oh, you were asking about comments. In my haste I
| missed that and thought you were asking about
| submissions.
|
| There are lots of comments in this thread that aren't
| flagged, so discussion isn't being prevented. It's true
| that a lot of the earlier comments were flagged, but that
| was (or should be) because they were flamebait. It's one
| of the downsides of internet commenting that the
| flameiest and most reflexive comments appear first in a
| thread--because those reactions are the quickest to flare
| up. Better, more reflective comments always take longer
| [1]. This goes 1000x for a topic like this one,
| unfortunately.
|
| [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=t
| rue&sor...
|
| -- original reply --
|
| I've answered that several times in the links I listed;
| can you take a look and, if there's something specific I
| haven't addressed, let me know?
|
| (I don't mean to be dismissive--it just takes a
| surprising amount of time to write those things and I
| can't do it at the moment.)
| hersko wrote:
| Hey Dang, huge fan of HN.
|
| How do you reconcile HN's political neutrality and the fact
| that almost every overtly political story that hits the
| front page about certain subjects[1] are blatantly biased
| on one side?
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435324
| dang wrote:
| I think it's a legit concern and it worries me too.
|
| We can only go by the articles that users submit, and
| then only the subset we see, which is a function of (a)
| randomness and (b) users bringing specific cases to our
| attention. If there's a bias in the stories that have
| made HN's front page, that bias is present in the
| underlying data (I mean this stream of articles) to begin
| with. Why might that be? Well, there are a lot of
| possible reasons and people would most likely dispute
| about those as much as they do about the underlying
| topic.
|
| For what it's worth (which may not be much), all I can
| tell you is that we want deeply, and are trying hard, to
| be even-handed. At the same time, we're not going to
| apply some sort of mechanical both-sides balancing
| because, although it might make things superficially
| easier in the short term, I don't think it would be in
| the spirit of the site, and we don't do that about
| anything else.
|
| The even-handedness I'm talking about is probably a lot
| easier to notice in our moderation of comments, so far,
| than of the articles. I feel pretty confident that we've
| done a good job of that [1], more than I am about the
| articles. Perhaps that's because there have been
| thousands of comments, but only a handful of frontpage
| articles, on the topic. One consistent lesson of HN is
| that you can't draw general conclusions from a handful of
| datapoints (even though everyone always does; it seems to
| be unavoidable). It takes a lot more than that before
| reliable patterns show up.
|
| What matters to me is that there be principles underlying
| the moderation decisions and that they get applied
| equally. This isn't fully achievable because there's
| always interpretation involved--we don't get every call
| right. But I think the principles, at least, are the
| right ones for HN (I've explained what these are in the
| links mentioned above), and I'm always open to hearing
| arguments about how to apply them more even-handedly.
| When people make a fair point, such as xyzelement did
| about the submitted URL of the OP
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39621225), we're
| happy to change something. Another example that sticks in
| my mind is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39146630
| from a few weeks ago. That was about title, not URL, but
| the principle is the same.
|
| I don't know how satisfactory this answer can possibly be
| but I hope it's at least clear that I hear you and care
| about the question.
|
| [1] That is, when people break HN's rules in the
| comments, such as by posting flamebait or snark or
| personal attack, we flag and/or reply and/or ban
| irrespective of what the commenter is for or against. It
| might not appear that way to many readers who have strong
| passions on a topic, but it's not as hard to do as one
| might assume, especially after 10 years of practice.
| hersko wrote:
| Thanks for the response. I guess i just don't understand
| why some political stories make it through, when the vast
| majority (like this one[1]) are rightfully flagged.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39622270
| dang wrote:
| If you look at the links I listed in my GP comment, I've
| posted quite a few explanations of how and when we turn
| off the flags on an article. If there's a question I
| haven't answered there, I'd like to know what it is.
| hayst4ck wrote:
| Saying something is biased on one side and therefore
| wrong or unfair is incorrect because it denies the idea
| of objective truth.
|
| If there is no such thing as objective truth, then nobody
| has any foundation upon which to make any judgements, and
| therefore power alone becomes the ultimate arbiter or
| conflict.
|
| The idea that there is no objective truth is a core tenet
| of fascism.
|
| So in a "curious" place you would expect openness to new
| explanations, but you would also expect one-sided-ness
| because there _is_ an objective truth to approach and the
| purpose of curiosity is to approach that truth.
|
| If there is no objective truth, there is no reason to be
| curious.
|
| If there is an objective truth, then there is no reason
| to complain about one-sided-ness because what matters is
| our best approximation of the truth.
|
| A quote from Yale professor of history Timothy Snyder's
| book: _On Tyranny_ To abandon facts is
| to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no
| one can criticize power, because there is no basis
| upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then
| all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for
| the most blinding lights.
| Qem wrote:
| For me this article raised a estimation problem that I deem
| as interesting as the German tank problem[1]. I took a crack
| at it. Wish to see what people with better statistical
| knowledge than me think of the data and the conclusions. I
| think my maths/stats intuition for problems like this is OK,
| but I lack rigour.
|
| [1]. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem
| ciconia wrote:
| > This platform for tech news should not become a place for
| political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines.
|
| What's a political post? What's "regular news"? And where do
| you draw the line? If not interested, you can just move on
| and ignore. There's plenty of AI articles all over the front
| page.
| McNutty wrote:
| What is the appropriate number of times to "just move on
| and ignore" before finally deciding to say something
| because the integrity of hn as a platform is at risk?
| boringg wrote:
| I don't follow your logic. How does having to be part of
| some political conversation make the site lose its
| integrity?
|
| You have it completely the opposite by forcing into the
| conversation you destroy the integrity of the site.
|
| There is nothing in this conflict that requires HN
| community to have to take a position. This isn't world
| war II or anywhere near that level of global concern.
| whatshisface wrote:
| We know and work with Israelis and former Palestinians, and
| it is difficult enough to navigate the stresses without the
| added complexity of each side reading totally different news
| outlets and never talking about it in the same forums. I
| always try to handle this stuff at work (and political issues
| are _absolutely_ part of the lunchtime tapestry that impacts
| the cohesion of engineering teams) by sticking to the facts,
| but we need to agree on some shared reality for the facts to
| be a safe "home base" for diplomatic answers to the tough
| questions we can't avoid... I think it is very important for
| some amount of news to leak into the common spaces, as long
| as we can keep from arguing about it on a level higher than
| its veracity or importance.
| alexvoda wrote:
| I believe it is impossible to disentangle non-politics (tech
| included) from politics because that in itself is a political
| stance.
| immibis wrote:
| Unfortunately, everything is politics and politics is
| inescapable. "Ignoring politics" is _also_ a political action
| and a political statement.
| l3mure wrote:
| Yeah, there's plenty of relevant tech angles, whether that's
| Israelis utilizing AI to pick targets while acknowledging they
| know exactly how many civilians they're going to kill in the
| process [1], Israeli spyware being used to hack people
| everywhere in the world, etc.
|
| [1] https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-
| cal...
| ciconia wrote:
| > Around 10% of Gaza's journalists have been killed versus 2.5%
| of healthcare workers.
|
| One possible explanation is that journalists have a much higher
| probability of being close to where the fighting is, than
| healthcare workers.
| g-b-r wrote:
| That healthcare workers comparison does indeed not make much
| sense, it should be healthcare workers involved in retrieving
| the injured, which are indeed at very high risk (even though
| theoretically they shouldn't be targeted)
| simpletone wrote:
| 10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for
| soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare
| workers is ridiculously high.
|
| Would be interesting to see what the death rates for
| journalists, medics, soldiers, etc was in afghan war, iraq war,
| vietnam war, etc. I highly doubt any reaches 10%.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _10% would be considered an extremely high death rate for
| soldiers involved in the fighting. Even 2.5% for healthcare
| workers is ridiculously high._
|
| Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of war
| prohibit fire. That makes comparing casualty rates incredibly
| difficult. (To my knowledge, nobody else has done this so
| comprehensively. Though given its success, I expect it to be
| emulated. Which unfortunately means prohibitions on bombing
| hospitals, schools and places of worship are now obsolete.)
| licebmi__at__ wrote:
| >Though given its success, I expect it to be emulated.
|
| I'm wondering by what metric do you define success.
| hersko wrote:
| A lot of civilians being killed by the enemy driving
| global condemnation.
| falcor84 wrote:
| Are there any other examples from history where the goal
| of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to
| maximize the destruction of their own side? If so, what
| were the outcomes of these?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Are there any other examples from history where the
| goal of combatants was (or at least appeared to be) to
| maximize the destruction of their own side?_
|
| Every false flag operation designed to rally support for
| a conflict.
| falcor84 wrote:
| I'm not quite clear on what you're implying here, but in
| any case I would prefer to find an example of a prolonged
| war rather than an isolated false flag operation.
| golergka wrote:
| Gaza civilians are not on the Hamas "side".
| bawolff wrote:
| I mean, they have managed to hurt israel's position on
| the world stage & economy quite significantly relative to
| their actual military power.
|
| Hardly seems worth it to me, but i guess you could argue
| that is success of a sort.
| hmcq6 wrote:
| This is unfounded.
|
| I'm still waiting on a single shred of evidence to drop
| about the AP building from 2-3 years ago
| https://apnews.com/article/israel-middle-east-business-
| israe...
|
| > Which unfortunately means prohibitions on bombing
| hospitals, schools and places of worship are now obsolete.
|
| Even if Hamas _was_ fighting from hospitals and schools
| that is not how this works. Israel would be required to
| give those schools and hospitals warning first which they
| have not been doing.
|
| And assuming (incorrectly) that Israel was following the
| rules of engagement and giving the civilians warning, why
| are they hitting the refuge camps with 2000lb dumb bombs?
| Why not guided bombs?
| nsguy wrote:
| Israel has ordered hospitals to evacuate, e.g.:
| https://healthpolicy-watch.news/who-calls-for-israel-to-
| resc...
|
| I think you're generally wrong on the "they have not been
| doing" comment. Israel has been giving warnings, and
| those warnings were intentionally being ignored to
| maximize the damage to Israel's reputation. But if you
| have some comprehensive data here I'd be interested in
| seeing it.
|
| From my observation the pattern has been Israel giving
| warnings/ordering evacuations with the response being "it
| can't be done" only to end with significantly more
| difficult conditions.
|
| Israel did demand that the entirety of Northern Gaza be
| evacuated from civilians (including those "camps" you
| mention, more below, and including all those hospitals)
| which was again pushed back on as "impossible" or
| physically prevented by Hamas which in turn caused
| increased civilian casualty rates _and_ the eventual
| almost full evacuation under significantly more difficult
| conditions.
|
| The use of the terminology "refugee camps" is also
| confusing. Some of what the media refers to as "refugee
| camps" are permanent settlements, effectively cities,
| where the population consists of many 1948 refugees. Not
| what most people think about when they hear "refugee
| camps". As to why heavy bombs are used I'm not an expert
| but potentially to penetrate deeper and there might be
| other reasons.
|
| All that said, I think it should be acknowledged that
| some of the methods Israel is using are likely to try and
| achieve some psychological advantage against the enemy. I
| don't think this that's necessarily a violation of
| international law given that warnings were given. It's
| within the realm of what I would call a military
| objective (demoralizing the enemy forces and destroying
| their infrastructure).
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| if Russia says that everyone in the UK has to leave the
| UK that doesn't give them the right to bomb every
| hospital in the UK
| nsguy wrote:
| That's true but if the UK military intentionally embeds
| in all UK cities, in civilian clothes, and launches
| rockets at Russia from those cities, and the UK sends
| raids into Russia to kill Russians and then retreats and
| mixes with civilian population in the UK, what do you
| feel is a legitimate move or tactic by Russia to defend
| its citizens in this hypothetical situation?
| rakoo wrote:
| And what if Russia had been colonizing Scotland, then
| Wales, then half of England, only left disjointed pockets
| of UK residents not allowed to vote, being watched 24/7,
| being beaten, harassed and killed by settlers under the
| watch of Russian army, and then being beaten when going
| to the funeral of their dead, being robbed of their
| natural resources, having to go through checkpoints to
| see their family, London being half the UK capital and
| half the Russian capital but actually Russia says the
| entirety of London is, Russia bombing neighbour
| countries, all of this illegal and happening for 75 years
| and no one in the world does anything because the richest
| country in the world blindly supports Russia ?
|
| Context, always.
| almogo wrote:
| That's absolutely not a reasonable comparison.
| hmcq6 wrote:
| I didn't say that Israel has never ordered an evacuation.
| I pushed back on the commenter who stated that finding a
| militant in a hospital or school makes it a valid target.
|
| > From my observation
|
| Well from Human Rights Watches observation:
|
| > Human Rights Watch has not been able to corroborate
| them, nor seen any information that would justify attacks
| on Gaza hospitals. When a journalist at a news conference
| showing video footage of damage to the Qatar Hospital
| sought additional information to verify voice recordings
| and images presented, the Israeli spokesperson said, "our
| strikes are based on intelligence." Even if accurate,
| Israel has not demonstrated that the ensuing hospital
| attacks were proportionate.
|
| https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-
| israeli-ho...
|
| > I don't think
|
| Again, giving a warning doesn't make it ok to bomb a
| school. Notice how the HRW quote mentions the attack not
| being "proportionate"? That's why I seek advice from the
| experts.
| jonbodner wrote:
| You are aware of Human Rights Watch's history with
| Israel, right? Here's a taste:
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2009/07
| /fu...
| leereeves wrote:
| > the organization's senior Middle East official, Sarah
| Leah Whitson, attempted to extract money from potential
| Saudi donors by bragging about the group's "battles" with
| the "pro-Israel pressure groups."
|
| What's wrong with that? Any honest observer will have
| battles with groups who want to spin the truth.
|
| I'd say one of the biggest problems in the US political
| system right now is that we don't have enough
| organizations willing to battle against our own partisan
| pressure groups (without siding with any of them).
|
| Perhaps that's what's troubling: so many of our
| organizations have taken sides that it's difficult to
| understand an organization that hasn't.
|
| As for raising money in Saudi Arabia: they were raising
| money from private supporters there, not the Saudi
| government. Do you think no one in SA supports human
| rights?
|
| Or, if the suggestion is that HRW is siding with the
| Saudis, take a look at:
|
| https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/north-africa/saudi-arabia
| bawolff wrote:
| When it comes to international law, i think human rights
| groups are more like the "prosecuter" than a neutral
| party. They have an interest in this conflict that is not
| the same as Israel's.
|
| When HRW says Israel is bad, i think its a bit like when
| a cop says the person they arrested is bad. It may very
| well be true, but i wouldn't put it as a sure thing until
| some sort of trial is done.
|
| P.s. in regards to "porportionate" - keep in mind that
| has a special definition in international law that is
| different from how people use it in normal conversation.
| erokar wrote:
| > They have an interest in this conflict that is not the
| same as Israel's.
|
| You are quite right, Israel's interest is to kill and
| displace the Palestinians, crush them as a people. Very
| few human right groups would have an interest that aligns
| with that.
| bawolff wrote:
| Israel would and has claimed otherwise.
|
| Maybe you don't believe them, but if the goal is to
| determine truth its probably better to start from a place
| of assuming innocence and change views based on evidence,
| not the other way around.
| nsguy wrote:
| "Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical
| purposes must be respected and protected in all
| circumstances. They lose their protection if they are
| being used, outside their humanitarian function, to
| commit acts harmful to the enemy."
|
| We've seen some evidence that hospitals are used outside
| their humanitarian function.
|
| It's true that even if the hospital loses it's protection
| that does not mean that it's ok to just go ahead and
| level it because of the presence of a single combatant
| (and that hasn't happened, I'm pretty sure e.g. no
| hospital in Gaza suffered a direct bombing attack e.g.
| but it may be ok under certain circumstances to
| completely level a hospital that is used for military
| purposes if enough warning has been given), the
| proportionality principles still applies. Proportionate
| has a very specific meaning in terms of the Geneva
| convention which most people aren't familiar with. I
| agree that the IDFs actions must be proportionate in that
| sense. The IDF claims its actions are. The IDF has
| lawyers that evaluate actions against international law.
|
| Human Rights Watch isn't necessarily an unbiased observer
| here. Naturally they would not have access to the IDF's
| intelligence and the IDF can be justified in not sharing
| its intelligence to protect its sources.
|
| My basic take is why is it beneficial for the IDF to
| waste time and resources attacking hospitals that have no
| military use? It's bad PR, it's wasted efforts that could
| be directed somewhere else. Doesn't make sense. It's
| possible it could be "more careful" in avoiding those in
| certain situations. Is it the highest item in the
| priority list (e.g. above the security of IDF soldiers),
| probably not.
| hmcq6 wrote:
| > [It] Doesn't make sense
|
| It does when your enemy is Amalek.
|
| https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/01/south-
| africa-is...
| nsguy wrote:
| There's certainly been no shortage of rhetoric on the
| Israeli side to exact revenge for Oct 7th. Some of it
| very extreme. The events of that day traumatized
| Israelis.
|
| I don't think most Israelis really think the Palestinians
| are the biblical "Amalek". More like the children of
| "Ishmael", i.e. "cousins". They likely do view Hamas
| specifically as an entity that should be annihilated.
| i.e. all 40k or so Hamas combatants killed or captured.
| But even if we take this at face value it's still stupid
| to waste energy on a place that's known to not be a
| military threat while there are active military threats.
| First finish the military threat.
| phone8675309 wrote:
| > Hamas based their operations where conventional rules of
| war prohibit fire.
|
| This has not stopped the IDF
| sgift wrote:
| Yes, and if you look up the rules of war you will see
| that if you base your operations there the enemy is
| allowed to attack it. Besides a desire to not kill your
| civilian population that's another reason countries don't
| do that. But Hamas doesn't care for civilians.
| tacomonstrous wrote:
| >But Hamas doesn't care for civilians.
|
| Neither does the IDF by all available evidence.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| Protected sites lose their protected status under the law
| of armed conflict if they are used to hide/support
| combatants. Agree or disagree with Israel's targeting
| policies; that's still the law and has been for decades.
| archagon wrote:
| If the law permits thousands of innocents to be
| slaughtered, then maybe it needs to change.
| vladgur wrote:
| THe reason these "international laws" are accepted by
| majority of modern nations is because they are somewhat
| reasonable and allow parties to military conflicts to
| wage military campaigns while attempting to minimize
| civilian casualties.
|
| If the laws are rewritten to state "you are never allowed
| to attack a hospital or a school. No exception", then
| what will follow is one party to the war will put their
| military installation insides schools and hospitals and
| the other party to the war to the war will say "these
| geneva conventions are unreasonable and we wont follow
| it"
|
| In other words, nobody would respect Geneva conventions
| if they are unreasonable
| archagon wrote:
| Regardless of any second-order effects, the truth on the
| ground is that many thousands of innocents are suffering,
| and I have a hard time seeing any societal configuration
| where civilians can be legally blown up or starved en
| masse as anything but immoral. If a terrorist government
| is embedded in your population centers, it should not be
| legal to raze those population centers in retribution.
| colonCapitalDee wrote:
| This a common misunderstanding of the international laws
| of war, and international law in general.
|
| In our personal lives the government can compel us to
| follow the law with the threat of overwhelming force; if
| I break the law I will be arrested, and regardless of how
| much I fight back I will not be able to stop it. Laws in
| our everyday lives are like commands from a parent to a
| child; the government, as the parent, can and will compel
| the child's obedience.
|
| International law is different. If a state breaks
| international law, there is no entity willing or capable
| of using overwhelming force to compel obedience. States
| have armies and some have nuclear weapons; the amount of
| force required to compel a state to behave a certain way
| is huge, and generating that force is extremely costly.
| When states break international law there are
| consequences, but at the end of the day violence is
| generally not on the table.
|
| Effective international law is a balancing act. An
| international standard of warfare that placed extremely
| strict standards on when it was permissible to kill
| civilians would make fighting a war significantly harder.
| No state would obey such a law because winning the war is
| the absolute highest priority, making the law worthless.
| Instead, laws of war try to outlaw actions that don't
| affect the ability of a country to win a war. No chemical
| or biological weapons (high explosives are more
| effective), humane treatment of prisoners (discourages
| the enemy fighting to the death), and no killing
| civilians unless in the pursuit of a military objective
| (if it's not in pursuit of a military objective, then
| it's a waste of resources). The goal of the laws of war
| is to prevent unnecessary violence, not prevent violence
| altogether. It's a case of "perfect is the enemy of
| good."
| tekla wrote:
| As it turns out, you can't say everyone is a noncombatant
| in an area, and then place combatants there and think
| everyone is ok with that.
| immibis wrote:
| What's the point of hiding soldiers among civilian targets
| if Israel is just going to bomb the civilian targets? The
| point of any fighter using human shields is that _the enemy
| doesn 't fire because they don't want to hurt the human
| shields_. If they're willing to kill the human shields,
| they don't help you, so why bother with them?
|
| This apparent myth rubs me the same way as "there's no food
| because Hamas is stealing it" - really? All of it? For what
| purpose?
| Scarblac wrote:
| > What's the point of hiding soldiers among civilian
| targets if Israel is just going to bomb the civilian
| targets
|
| Getting international opinion to turn against Israel.
|
| Thats the way Hamas can survive this, getting enough
| pressure on Israel to make them stop.
| someotherperson wrote:
| It's just noise. Scaling this to other examples: _if
| there was a school shooter inside a school, should the
| school be bombed?_ The answer is a resounding no, but
| with Gaza it turns into a yes.
|
| This is why the common rhetoric given from politicians
| and jingoists is that all of them are guilty and that no
| one is innocent. Using the same example, the workers and
| students of that school are de facto responsible because
| they allowed that school shooter to enter the school.
| boringg wrote:
| Whats the confidence in the underlying data giving 10%?
| Qem wrote:
| That assumes upper bound of published figures, 130. Lower
| bound is about 90. If 130 is 10%, 90 would be 7%. In my
| estimation post I took conservatively wikipedia's count,
| close to the lower bound.
| moshun wrote:
| For context, a total of 69 journalists were killed in WWII, 63
| in the Vietnam war both of which lasted several years. As of
| today March 6th 2024, the Gaza invasion has left 86 journalists
| dead in less than 4 months. That is an amazingly high
| percentage for the expected mean in a conflict.
|
| Sources:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/israel...
|
| https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-jour...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30embed....
| boringg wrote:
| That may be true but a couple things have changed since those
| very dated sample points. (1) Definition of journalist (2)
| quantity of journalists (3) willingness to be on the very
| front lines in order to get better stories (4) technology
| enabling journalists thus being able to be more dangerous
| spots. (5) _speculation_ - > journalists who are using press
| credentials as cover
|
| I'm neither way on the conflict but want to correct some of
| your arguments assumptions that lead your conclusion astray.
| henry2023 wrote:
| Are we seeing the same percentage of journalists killed by
| the Russian army in Ukraine?
| boringg wrote:
| Totally different war structure.
| ethanbond wrote:
| The onus of protecting journalists (and medical workers)
| falls on the military regardless of how difficult the war
| they're trying to prosecute is.
|
| How many journalists did the US kill in 20 years of
| OEF/OIF?
| boringg wrote:
| I'm not condoning the death of anyone.
|
| I am however pointing out the very significant
| differences between what the original comment is
| referring to and what is happening and what might be
| driving the largest (if true) difference in numbers.
| ethanbond wrote:
| I didn't say you were. I am pointing out a more directly
| analogous war to demonstrate that similar militaries have
| waged similar wars against similar adversaries for far,
| far greater spans of time yielding far fewer journalist
| deaths.
|
| I am also pointing out that "this war is extra hard to
| prosecute" is not actually justification for certain
| actions. The difficulty of fighting the war falls on the
| people fighting the war, including the difficulty of
| protecting civilians during that war. What else would any
| standards or laws mean if that _weren't_ the case? The
| whole premise of these standards is to set a _ceiling_ on
| what sort of awful conditions can be allowed during
| warfare.
| ryanwhitney wrote:
| Thirteen for OIF: https://cpj.org/reports/2006/01/js-
| killed-by-us-13sept05/
| ninininino wrote:
| > The onus of protecting journalists (and medical
| workers) falls on the military regardless of how
| difficult the war they're trying to prosecute is.
|
| No it doesn't?
|
| Just searched the International Criminal Court's English
| document on war crimes, genocide, and crimes against
| humanity for 'journalist' and found no results.
|
| https://www.icc-
| cpi.int/sites/default/files/Publications/Ele...
| ethanbond wrote:
| 1. Onus doesn't mean legal requirement. Civilized nations
| can be, should be, and generally are held to standards
| far exceeding legal statutes.
|
| 2. They DO have an actual legal obligation to protect
| journalists as well, try searching for "civilian." If
| they are _targeting_ journalists (read: civilians) that
| would obviously be illegal.
| ninininino wrote:
| You said "protecting" and protection is far different
| from "not target".
|
| We have laws for an important reason, without them it's
| up to any individual to decide for themselves what is
| just at any given moment. What happens when Israel
| decides that what's fair and just seems barbaric to you
| or me? We agree on the rules ahead of time so that we can
| act accordingly.
|
| If you want war crimes to include "must protect
| journalists", then I'd suggest your best chance at
| realizing that goal would be to get the legal codes
| modified.
|
| You said journalists, not civilians. If you want to talk
| about civilians now not journalists, that's a new topic.
| bawolff wrote:
| I think the argument is that its a lot easier to protect
| journalists if there are very few journalists in the war
| zone, so absolute numbers are the wrong way to look at
| it.
|
| Essentially base rate fallacy.
| mateo1 wrote:
| That's the point isn't it?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Most of the time (read: every time) when I see people
| talking about journalist casualties in Gaza, they're
| doing so to imply or support the claim that Israel is
| deliberately targeting journalists, and when they compare
| journalist casualties in Gaza with other conflicts, they
| virtually never make mention of the relevant factors that
| might cause more journalist fatalities apart from the
| 'deliberate targeting' hypothesis. So no, usually the
| point is not to compare the structures of war or
| otherwise gain a greater understanding, it's usually to
| suggest that journalists are being targeted.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| It's a very imperfect comparison, but at least it's a
| factual basis. If you have better data, please share it.
| karim79 wrote:
| I agree. In Ukraine, combatants are not fighting from
| within an overpopulated prison camp.
| pvg wrote:
| Yes if you google 'how many journalists died in WW2' in
| Russian you get numbers from a couple of hundred to over a
| thousand for the Soviet Union alone. The 69 number listed
| at https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/world/middleeast/30em
| bed.... is almost certainly just US journalists.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > (1) Definition of journalist (2) quantity of journalists
| (3) willingness to be on the very front lines in order to
| get better stories (4) technology enabling journalists thus
| being able to be more dangerous spots.
|
| How have these things changed, and how have the changes
| affected the number of journalists killed? The changes
| could reduce the number.
|
| My point is, we need much less speculation and
| possibilities, and much more credible fact. CPJ provides
| some credible fact.
| throwaway69123 wrote:
| If your using other wars as a comparison like this what was
| the journalist per capita and have you adjusted for the
| prewar ratio per capita also. This seems like ham fisted
| attempts at statistics otherwise
| ars wrote:
| And for comparison 715 were killed in Syria.
|
| "Of the 715, the Syrian regime was responsible for the
| killing of 553 journalists, including five children, one
| woman, five foreign journalists, and 47 journalists who died
| due to torture, while 24 journalists were killed at the hands
| of Russian forces."
|
| https://snhr.org/blog/2023/05/03/on-world-press-freedom-
| day-...
| bombcar wrote:
| Five children journalists?
| polygamous_bat wrote:
| You've never seen a high school or a college newspaper?
| screye wrote:
| That's a remarkably small number. It makes me think
| journalists weren't present in the warzone at all.
|
| Irrespective of which side you support, Hamas is notorious
| for colocating themselves among civilians. An elevated
| civilian death count, including journalists is to be
| expected.
|
| However, the numbers being THIS high in this short a time is
| alarming and tragic.
| pests wrote:
| > An elevated civilian death count, including journalists
| is to be expected.
|
| Is it???
| brink wrote:
| Yes? Use your basic reasoning. Hamas fights in civilian
| clothing, they hide in civilian buildings, they hide in
| hospitals. They use regular civilians as shields. This is
| not your average fight; Hamas hates their enemy more than
| they love their own country.
| pests wrote:
| Maybe another method is needed then?
|
| If you can't tell innocent people from legit targets...
| rethink the approach?
|
| Here is my reasoning: they hide in civilian clothes, okay
| let's not shoot civilians. They hide in hospitals, okay
| let's not bomb hospitals. They use civilian buildings,
| okay let's not bomb civilian buildings.
|
| They use civilians as shields... let's not shoot the
| shields.
|
| How is that unreasonable?
| immibis wrote:
| You began the sentence with "Irrespective of which side you
| support, Hamas" so you might not be aware that both sides
| use human shields.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| The Gaza invasion is urban warfare at its finest (including
| tunnel warfare, which is completely unprecedented), and the
| collateral damage is made exponentially worse by Hamas using
| hospitals, schools and residential areas as hideouts, command
| centers and launch sites.
|
| No matter what, the collateral damage of such a war scenario
| is among the highest you can get outside of carpet bombing -
| which is why international law bans (ab)using civilian
| infrastructure for military purposes in the first place, and
| taking hostages and (by multiple accounts) not giving them
| access to healthcare is just as bad. _Every_ single death in
| Gaza lies at the responsibility of Hamas - they knew what
| they were up against from the beginning, and they could stop
| the suffering of their people in an instant by releasing the
| hostages.
| eropple wrote:
| The framing of Gazans as a whole as "Hamas's people" is at
| best problematic; Hamas is an accelerationist and
| revolutionary movement that believes that _dead Gazans
| advance their aims_.
|
| Israel seems pretty happy to help Hamas out with proving
| out their theory right now, but it's important to note that
| a Gazan could've been born and raised _literally to the age
| of majority_ without getting a chance to vote on whether
| they think Hamas is doing right by them.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| That 69 figure cannot be remotely close to accurate. Millions
| of civilians died from mass bombing campaigns alone, which
| certainly killed many journalists working for local outlets
| in those cities!
|
| Each atomic bomb on its own probably killed more than 69
| journalists.
| hmcq6 wrote:
| That's a bad explanation because it relies on an assumption
| about how the press in Palestine are operating on the ground
| and I'm guessing no one on hackernews actually has that info.
|
| We don't know that reporters are rushing into danger or hanging
| out where the danger is going to be.
|
| In fact, a lot of the "reporters" who we've been watching were
| never war reporters to begin with. Motaz, for instance was an
| aspiring travel photographer. Bisan was a filmmaker. Wael was
| the cheif of Al-Jazera in Gaza.
|
| They're (most likely) not seeking out death and war, they're
| just reporting on the condition of their city, of their people.
|
| It also ignores 75 years of history. CPJ stated this was the
| deadliest conflict for journalists in the past 30 years.
| Reporters Without Borders has accused Israel of intentionally
| targeting journalists. Human Rights Watch signed a letter
| stating the US needed to put pressure on Israel to stop killing
| journalists. Amnesty international says Israel must be
| investigated for the war crime of killing journalists.
| addicted wrote:
| This has also been one of the deadliest wars for civilians in
| general. Also when you're using such a loose definition of
| journalist obviously the deaths would be greater.
| zizee wrote:
| Are you saying this war has a higher civilian casualty
| ratio that other wars? Sadly history shows that civilians
| have been casualties of war at high rates compared to
| combatants.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
| someotherperson wrote:
| I don't think they said that it was the highest, they
| just said "one of." From that list, 2:1 or 3:1 is
| certainly quite deadly.
| falseprofit wrote:
| That article suggests the average ratio to be 1:1, so yes
| this war has a higher ratio.
| ars wrote:
| > This has also been one of the deadliest wars for
| civilians in general.
|
| That's not actually true. The ratio is similar to other
| wars. Civilians die in war, they die a lot. War sucks. But
| Gaza is not unusually deadly compared to other wars.
| erokar wrote:
| Compare it to the Russia/Ukraine war. Not even close.
|
| In any case Israel is not conducting a war, they are
| conducting a massacre.
| ars wrote:
| [delayed]
| bawolff wrote:
| > This has also been one of the deadliest wars for
| civilians in general.
|
| I don't think that is a true statement. Obviously it is bad
| for civilians in any war, but there are other conficts that
| have been much worse.
| moomin wrote:
| Quite a few died in their own homes.
|
| Worth mentioning the IDF know where everyone in Gaza lives.
| immibis wrote:
| When the USA gave the IDF a list of Christian churches not to
| bomb, suddenly they started getting bombed more quickly.
| eeeehhh wrote:
| This explaination wouldn't explain why the figure is so much
| higher than when compared to other conflicts in the world.
| gataca wrote:
| many on this list have been shown to be hamas members, this
| is propaganda
| tehjoker wrote:
| Alternatively, you can watch this documentary where journalists
| wearing identifying gear away from the action were shot by a
| sniper during the peaceful "March of Return" (2018). These were
| the "Palestinian Gandhis" Israel supporters keep talking about.
| They were massacred.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s
| hersko wrote:
| > peaceful "March of Return"
|
| How is trying to storm a sovereign border peaceful? Pretty
| sure if a mob stormed any normal government border they would
| be shot.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _How is trying to storm a sovereign border peaceful?_
|
| It's not. But it's not grounds for lethal force. Audible
| warnings, warning shots and non-lethal rounds were the
| right moves.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| Another possibility is that they also had a second job working
| for Hamas - so, on a list of "not really journalists".
|
| For example, lots of men (all men?) in Saddam's Iraq had two
| jobs - full-time dentists, and part time reserve units. They
| could've been full-time journalists and still employees /
| members of Saddam's party - not always by choice - there are
| plenty of existential, social and financial pressures when you
| live in a place like that.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Another possibility is that they also had a second job
| working for Hamas - so, on a list of "not really
| journalists".
|
| I think we need less baseless speculation in this discussion.
| Another commenter posted links to the Times of Israel, which
| of course is very imperfect, but it's a start.
| g-b-r wrote:
| Besides the statistics I advise anyone to also look at the
| reports of how the individual deaths happened, I've seen them
| very little discussed in western media.
|
| There's often enough evidence to show an extremely likely
| deliberate killing (usually with weapons that Hamas doesn't
| have).
|
| Journalists have been killed outside of the Gaza strip as well.
|
| Just make your own informed opinion.
|
| Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on the
| ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from entering, I
| think this prohibition alone should be considered unacceptable in
| the 21 century
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _evidence to show an extremely likely deliberate killing_
|
| Do you have examples?
| g-b-r wrote:
| https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-casualties-in-the-
| israel-... is a good independent source to get started
|
| (see also https://cpj.org/2024/03/attacks-arrests-threats-
| censorship-t...)
| bkirkby wrote:
| there appears to be no effort by cpj to determine if the
| journalists were killed by palestinians or israelis. is
| that accurate?
| blast wrote:
| All the examples I looked at say killed by Israeli
| airstrike or Israeli sniper.
| loceng wrote:
| It's also worth seeing if there's a historical pattern of
| behaviour:
|
| "One Martyr Down: The Untold Story Of A Canadian Peacekeeper
| Killed At War" - https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-
| the-untold-story-...
|
| A Canadian Army Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener was assassinated
| after the IDF "accidentally" bombed a United Nations post that
| he was posted at - soon after he reported war crimes that he
| witnessed the IDF doing.
| adamckay wrote:
| For context, Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener emailed [1] days
| before saying that Hezbollah were using his positions and the
| IDF was being forced to fire on them out of "tactical
| necessity". This isn't as clear-cut as you're attempting to
| paint it.
|
| 1 - https://web.archive.org/web/20061010012455/http://www.can
| ada...
| loceng wrote:
| From the same article:
|
| A senior UN official, asked about the information contained
| in Maj. Hess-von Kruedener's e-mail concerning Hezbollah
| presence in the vicinity of the Khiam base, denied the
| world body had been caught in a contradiction.
|
| "At the time, there had been no Hezbollah activity reported
| in the area," he said. "So it was quite clear they were not
| going after other targets; that, for whatever reason, our
| position was being fired upon.
|
| "Whether or not they thought they were going after
| something else, we don't know. The fact was, we told them
| where we were. They knew where we were. The position was
| clearly marked, and they pounded the hell out of us."
|
| ---
|
| This part states the area was being bombed prior to reports
| of Hezbollah activity in the area, so yes - the confusion
| will muddy it.
|
| Nonetheless, he had recently reported IDF war crimes - and
| the IDF at minimum coincidentally was responsible for
| killing him; with this seemingly contradictory statement by
| a senior UN official.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _Furthermore, there have been so few western journalists on
| the ground because Israel (and Egypt) prevented them from
| entering, I think this prohibition alone should be considered
| unacceptable in the 21 century_
|
| I think the prohibition is wrong, but what do you think "real
| journalists" can offer people that isn't already being spread
| around? We are _inundated_ with stories from this conflict;
| what is CNN going to add to the conversation? Most of these
| outlets are mouthpieces for their respective governments
| anyway, their point-of-view is predictable.
| nsguy wrote:
| The Hamas may(?) have less leverage over foreign reporters.
| For local reporters there's a history of Hamas threatening
| and using violence against the reporters and their families
| to get the kind of reporting they want.
|
| I agree with the observation that many of those outlets are
| mouthpieces for their respective government though.
|
| Here are a few references to keep in mind when thinking about
| journalists working in Gaza (or you can think about Russia,
| Iran, North Korea, maybe China as being similar):
|
| https://www.amnesty.ca/human-rights-news/gaza-hamas-must-
| end...
|
| "The Gaza Strip is a particularly inhospitable territory for
| press freedom. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad harass and
| obstruct journalists suspected of collaborating with Israel,"
| - https://rsf.org/en/country/palestine
|
| "Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption
| in Hamas-controlled ministry" -
| https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/02/gaza-
| journali...
|
| "The Palestinian authorities in the West Bank and Gaza are
| arresting, abusing, and criminally charging journalists and
| activists who express peaceful criticism of the authorities.
| ... Both Palestinian governments, operating independently,
| have apparently arrived at similar methods of harassment,
| intimidation and physical abuse of anyone who dares criticize
| them. ... The media freedom group MADA documented 192
| incidents in 2015 in which Palestinian authorities infringed
| on journalists' right to free expression through summoning
| and interrogation, arrests, physical assault, detention, and,
| in Gaza, forbidding journalists from reporting on certain
| issues or stories. That was a 68 percent increase over 2014.
| The pattern of abuse that MADA reported, including beatings,
| torture, warnings to stop criticizing the government, and
| seizing passwords to search social media accounts, is
| consistent with the cases Human Rights Watch documented." -
| https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-
| jour...
|
| Isra Al-Mudalla, the head of foreign relations in Hamas's
| Information Ministry said, "The security agencies would go
| and have a chat with these people. They would give them some
| time to change their message, one way or another." ... "Some
| of the journalists who entered the Gaza Strip were under
| security surveillance. Even under these difficult
| circumstances, we managed to reach them, and tell them that
| what they were doing was anything but professional journalism
| and that it was immoral." -
| https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-admits-intimidating-
| fore... https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-government-
| spokesperson-we-de...
| g-b-r wrote:
| > We are inundated with stories from this conflict; what is
| CNN going to add to the conversation
|
| For example it could add informing a much wider span of the
| population and so influencing the governments?
|
| I guarantee you that not everyone is inundated with stories
| from the conflict.
| jll29 wrote:
| War is nasty, it brings out the worst in people. Look at this,
| listen to their laughter while conducting their "work":
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw (2007)
|
| "The video shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver
| Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills
| them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad after they are
| apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial
| shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan
| arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded.
| They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this
| incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed
| the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred."
|
| (We may not have such detailed coverage for Gaza that we have
| for Baghdad, which is of course also caused by the lack of
| journalists, since who is dead can no longer report.)
| feedforward wrote:
| Not only are the journalists being targeted and killed, their
| families are being targeted and killed.
| mcgeez wrote:
| [Citation needed]
| gkfasdfasdf wrote:
| > Numerous members of Al-Dahdouh's family have been killed by
| the Israeli military during the Israel-Hamas war. His wife,
| seven-year old daughter, and 15-year old son were killed in
| an Israeli airstrike on the Nuseirat refugee camp on 28
| October 2023, in addition to eight of his other relatives. On
| 15 December 2023, while Al-Dahdouh and his cameraman Samer
| Abu Daqqa were covering the Haifa School airstrike in Khan
| Yunis, they were hit by an Israeli missile, injuring Dahdouh
| and fatally wounding Abu Daqqa. Despite the death of many
| family members and his injury, he quickly returned to
| reporting on the war after both incidents.[3] His son,
| journalist Hamza al-Dahdouh, was killed by an Israeli
| airstrike in Khan Younis on 7 January 2024,[4] and two of his
| nephews were killed in an airstrike the following day.[5]
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wael_Al-Dahdouh
| ryanwhitney wrote:
| Is there irrefutable proof of it in the current conflict?
| Unless something leaks from the IDF, we'll never know. But
| there are well-respected news orgs and NGOs identifying
| patterns of it.
|
| "CPJ is deeply alarmed by the pattern of journalists in Gaza
| reporting receiving threats, and subsequently, their family
| members being killed," said CPJ Middle East and North Africa
| Program Coordinator Sherif Mansour. "The killing of the
| family members of journalists in Gaza is making it almost
| impossible for the journalists to continue reporting, as the
| risk now extends beyond them also to include their beloved
| ones."
|
| https://cpj.org/2023/12/father-of-al-jazeeras-anas-al-
| sharif...
|
| And Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-
| strikes-kill-...
| xyzelement wrote:
| This seems like two hefty accusations to sling out as a matter
| of fact.
| ryanwhitney wrote:
| Noting that Israel already had a history of killing well-
| identified journalists outside of direct conflict; and lying
| about it: https://forensic-
| architecture.org/investigation/shireen-abu-...
|
| Here's a wider review from the Committee to Protect Journalists
| that predates the current conflict:
| https://cpj.org/reports/2023/05/deadly-pattern-20-journalist...
| xyzelement wrote:
| Actually reading this article shows some heavy conjecture.
|
| They talk about the existence of Pegasus software, and they talk
| about the fact that generically, it has been used in the world to
| track journalists.
|
| They don't actually cite a single example of a Palestinian, much
| less a journalist, being tracked through Pegasus. Likewise, they
| say it "appears" that this data is then used for targeting but no
| indication as to what makes it appear that way.
|
| The article is basically "spyware exists" - and the rest is pure
| speculation about how it could possibly be used but no evidence
| (mentioned) that it's used that way.
| dang wrote:
| Thanks, that's a good point. The first few paragraphs alone say
| "allegedly", "believes", and "thought to have".
|
| I've changed the link from
| https://pressgazette.co.uk/news/gaza-journalists-targeted-sp...
| (the submitted URL) to https://cpj.org/2024/03/journalist-
| casualties-in-the-israel-..., which it points to. I've also
| changed the title to reflect the link change.
| 2597123128 wrote:
| [1] is a good source for a list of people, and an explanation
| of how Citizen Lab determined the phones were infected by
| Pegasus.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/11/devices-o...
| karim79 wrote:
| What is striking about these casualties, is many of the reported
| deaths also include large numbers of family members of the
| deceased, killed at the same time.
|
| So what is it then? The plausible deliberate targeting of the
| journalists mentioned? Or just, plain old indiscriminate bombing?
| Either ways, shame.
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