[HN Gopher] Miles Davis and the recording of Kind of Blue
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Miles Davis and the recording of Kind of Blue
Author : tintinnabula
Score : 263 points
Date : 2024-03-04 23:22 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.esquire.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.esquire.com)
| cdme wrote:
| An undeniable classic, but I remain partial to Bitches Brew.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| I'm more of a Dark Magus guy, myself.
| wk_end wrote:
| In A Silent Way for me. What a brilliant musician.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| This is the one album that I can never say no to if it pops
| up in my recommendations.
| cdme wrote:
| Also a fantastic choice -- I love so many of his albums for
| different reasons.
| aEJ04Izw5HYm wrote:
| Me too. While I appreciate why kind of blue and bitches brew
| are celebrated the way they are, the journey of in a silent
| way, to me is still unparalleled.
| jelavich wrote:
| I've come to love all sides of Miles.
| WalterSear wrote:
| I recently dicovered that he played on lots of other artists
| records that I have yet to listen to.
| asaph wrote:
| That album is more challenging to appreciate for listeners new
| to jazz, while Kind of Blue is immediately accessible to
| mainstream listeners.
| Capricorn2481 wrote:
| I've had the opposite experience. Kind of Blue never grabbed
| me. I've always been drawn to Avant Garde jazz first and
| foremost. I was introduced to it via Flying Lotus and heard
| him mention BB in an interview. I recognize that Kind of Blue
| is a beloved album, but I've listened to BB a hundred times.
| d12345m wrote:
| If you're a fan of both Flying Lotus and Bitches Brew, you
| should check out Miles Davis' album On The Corner, which
| came out two years after Bitches Brew. It feels like a
| direct precursor to hip-hop and a lot of the sample-based
| music that gained popularity in the 1980s, partly due to
| the tape splicing and looping that was done in the studio
| and partly because of the extremely wide set of influences
| that got stirred together on that record.
|
| It still sounds fantastically weird.
| Capricorn2481 wrote:
| Awesome, I'll check that out
| jeffbee wrote:
| I can't take that record off the shelf without thinking of this
| CBS memo.
|
| https://i.imgur.com/2GMwXPo.jpg
| cdme wrote:
| I've never seen this before -- love it. Thanks.
| squidsoup wrote:
| What's remarkable about Bitches Brew to me, is that in many
| ways Miles was a traditionalist, and yet his foray into the
| avant garde was more successful than most of his
| contemporaries.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| > What's remarkable about Bitches Brew to me, is that in many
| ways Miles was a traditionalist, and yet his foray into the
| avant garde...
|
| John McLaughlin was how I wound up at Bitches Brew - and got
| introduced to Miles. BB was a departure from the early JMC I
| was used to and it took me a while to bite into it. Hearing
| Holland and DeJohnette helped.
|
| A few years later I was all in. Saw Miles on my 19th bday.
| dhosek wrote:
| Which, in many ways is a polar opposite to Kind of Blue.
| Whereas Kind of Blue is comprised almost entirely of first
| takes, Bitches Brew was assembled in the editing room, pulling
| together multiple takes and pieces to form the tracks on the
| album.
| tiahura wrote:
| My favorite was his work on Miami Vice.
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kLyqgd-KTRM
| aworks wrote:
| I think Kind of Blue is a better album but I listen to Bitches
| Brew more often, maybe due to greater variety of song and
| texture. The former is like swinging, poignant velvet, the
| latter a swirling, electronic groove.
| richardfontana wrote:
| I actually now think that Miles's best work was his early
| stuff, before _Kind of Blue_, but that has to do with changes
| in my general preferences around jazz.
| mturmon wrote:
| Who wouldn't love them both.
|
| But I'm partial to Miles from the Bitches Brew era as well.
|
| I really got hooked on the reissue of the "bootleg" 1969
| European concerts a few years back. It gave a whole new
| perspective on his style in those years, it's different than BB
| in some ways.
| seanhunter wrote:
| If you like Bitches Brew, I would advise checking out "Miles
| Davis at Fillmore: Live at the Fillmore East" [1] (ideally the
| 1997 reissue rather than the original which was pretty heavily
| edited). It's like if someone took Bitches Brew and wanted to
| make it even more intense and hostile. Genuinely terrifying,
| amazing music.
|
| [1] https://www.discogs.com/fr/release/5036048-Miles-Davis-
| Miles...
| PhunkyPhil wrote:
| London Brew is also a very fun album. A lot of elements of BB
| are clearly evident but they ramp up the chaos and make it
| more "scary", while incorporating some things like electric
| guitar and more modern production.
| wiredfool wrote:
| I'm partial to Cookin. So I guess I'm on team early Miles.
| rplnt wrote:
| The preface reminded me of the Koln Concert, which is apparently
| the best selling piano album/recording. And the story behind it
| is quite interesting.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_K%C3%B6ln_Concert
| donbrae wrote:
| And soon to be a film: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20414360.
| simonw wrote:
| Tip for San Francisco Bay Area Jazz fans: I just found out about
| https://bachddsoc.org/ in Half Moon Bay - an apparently legendary
| jazz venue that's been hosting world-class musicians since the
| 1950s. I went on Sunday and it was fantastic - a really quirky
| venue, great music.
|
| I think it may be one of the Bay Area's best kept secrets.
| ashxel wrote:
| for sure. saw vijay iyer trio there 6 years ago and it was very
| memorable.
| resters wrote:
| wow I used to live near there and somehow missed it. Looks
| great!
| bitbckt wrote:
| There aren't many of these venues left. Keep showing up!
| cphaynes wrote:
| Very true. My favorite jazz club anywhere is in Boston:
| https://wallyscafe.com/
|
| I'm glad to see it's packed (albeit only holds ~25-30
| people), nearly 365 days of the year.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Not a secret, but I haven't thought about it in 20 years. I
| didn't realize it was still going (maybe that's sort of a
| secret!)
| hypertexthero wrote:
| Wonderful place!!
|
| Got into jazz when I lived in Oakland and I still miss Jerry
| Dean and KJAZ: http://timhodges.net/SPIRIT/index1.html
|
| Eventually learned about Django Reinhardt, which led me to
| Django the web framework and the rest of your and Jacob's work:
| https://jacobian.org/help/
|
| Thanks so much, Simon!
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| Who did you go with?
| zeruch wrote:
| Haven't been there in a while, but it is indeed a fun venue.
| LargeWu wrote:
| The book "Kind of Blue: The Making of a Miles Davis Masterpiece"
| by Ashley Cole is great if you're into this album.
|
| One of the most notable things about this album is that, while
| there were a few false starts, they used the first complete take
| for each track, which is astounding. I personally think it's the
| greatest achievement in the history of music.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| The autobiography is also a phenomenal book while we're on that
| topic.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Normally, I roll my eyes at claims of something being "the
| greatest ever." However, I think this one is a defensible
| claim.
|
| I like Miles' quote about it: "If I'd known it was going to be
| such a hit, I'd have asked for more money."
|
| I always wonder what they thought at the time. "Well, I guess
| that was pretty good." maybe?
| tohnjitor wrote:
| It would have been quite expensive to try for a second or third
| take. You're paying for the room, for the tape, and for at
| least one engineer and probably another guy, and except for the
| tape, it's all per hour.
|
| They had likely played together enough that they planned to
| just do one take unless there was a hiccup.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| _Mr. Tambourine Man_ took 3 takes, and that used studio
| musicians.
| johnea wrote:
| Epic album and article! It's great to see this on HN. It gives me
| a little more hope for the world...
| mp05 wrote:
| What an album!
|
| Aside from the hubris of asserting something so bold in the first
| place, it can not too controversial of a take to state that "Blue
| in Green" is the finest musical recording ever produced. If I had
| one, single song to take with me to a desert island, this is the
| one. The bowed bass at the end gives me chills every time.
| heleninboodler wrote:
| I think there are several other tracks on the album tied for
| this same distinction. :)
| vjulian wrote:
| Oh--it's not only me! I just commented on Blue in Green.
|
| Outside of that, the album overall has an association for me. I
| started buying jazz records in my teens in the 80s. No one
| guided my listening or made recommendations. I eventually came
| upon Kind of Blue and felt it was special. I had no idea how
| famous and well-loved it was. I find it interesting that even
| in a "blind taste test", I converged with the critical massess.
| Tycho wrote:
| Someone posted a website to HN a year ago which took a track
| as input and then returned you a list of similar tracks based
| on the sonic qualities.
|
| I tried it with Blue in Green and it actually did supply a
| list of tonally, harmonically, musically similar tracks. None
| were as good, of course, but still it was good to get more of
| the same vibe.
| xrd wrote:
| I'm hoping the jazz fans here will know the right answers to this
| question: where is the best place to see jazz in Tokyo? What
| about Kyoto?
| dodos wrote:
| I've been having trouble finding good ones in Tokyo. Blue Note
| Tokyo seems nice but is pricey and often sold out far in
| advance. I've seen some others I'd like to go to, but they
| double as cigar bars and my lungs don't enjoy smoke.
| xrd wrote:
| I had a really nice time seeing a jazz show at the Tower
| records last year. It was completely by chance, just happened
| to be there right when it happened. But I would like to be
| more intentional this next time. Thanks for your notes.
|
| I saw a guy play jazz in Miami two months ago and he lives in
| Tokyo. I'm going to see what he's up to and where he plays.
| Email me if you want to know what I find out.
| dumbo-octopus wrote:
| It seemed to me every "X" doubled as a "Smoking X" in
| Tokyo...
| ethbr1 wrote:
| Being jetlagged and people-watching in a coffee shop as
| Tokyo woke up was eye opening. Newspapers and cigarettes
| wall to wall.
|
| Especially since Paris was substantially less smokey, for
| all the French stereotypes.
| porknubbins wrote:
| I used to like jazz club Overseas in Osaka. Just a small place
| but very nice people. Also in Tokyo all my best experiences
| were at small intimate places where you got to know the owners
| or at least have a nice conversation about jazz with them.
| Daz1 wrote:
| They don't want tourists in them.
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| You don't necessarily need to see live jazz to have some great
| jazz experiences in Japan.
|
| Type in "Jazz Kissa" on google maps when you're wandering
| around these towns and you'll find little bars with great hifi
| setups that exclusively play jazz music. The reviews are pretty
| good for figuring out if they're worth a stop or not.
|
| I made an effort to stop by a few on my last trip and had some
| great experiences.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| How do I listen to it? Just seems like a mishmash of sounds.. I
| don't see the genius.
| heleninboodler wrote:
| This is a fascinating comment to me. I understand not really
| feeling jazz, but it doesn't even sound like a _song_ to you?
| My only suggestion is to jump into the middle of a few songs
| and try to hear the rhythm and song structure. They can often
| be difficult to pick up when they start slow. _All Blues_ might
| be the easiest. I sincerely wish you luck, because it 's really
| incredible music.
| pie420 wrote:
| it's most likely someone baiting reactions on the internet by
| posting rage-bait disguised as naivety
| squidsoup wrote:
| Walk through New York City. You will hear a "mishmash of
| sounds", and perhaps begin to understand.
| khazhoux wrote:
| And make sure to wear a fedora and a sharp suit, tip the
| newsboy, and give a warm "heya fellas!" to the navy boys
| taking in Times Square.
| code_runner wrote:
| Make sure you're listening to kind of blue. Not any of the
| extended deluxe this and that. Just the original tracks.
|
| All the extra stuff is great, but the original is the perfect
| album.
|
| What music do you typically like? There will definitely be a
| gateway to jazz in there somewhere.
| damontal wrote:
| If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start
| hearing things. Patterns. References to other songs or
| standards in a solo. Two players interacting and having a kind
| of conversation with each other. I've listened to this album so
| many times I can play it in my mind.
|
| If you're really interested then listen to it enough so that it
| becomes somewhat familiar. You'll be able to distinguish the
| structure from the improv and hear the interaction between the
| two. Bill Evans was a classical pianist. Maybe just focus on
| the piano and try to see what it's doing in the song.
|
| My Favorite Things by John Coltrane may be a better place to
| start though. It really emphasizes a familiar melody.
| WalterSear wrote:
| > If you listen to that kind of jazz long enough you start
| hearing things.
|
| When someone asks me for an introduction to jazz, I point
| them at Kind of Blue. I'm not sure what the grandparent
| comment is looking for.
| nicooo wrote:
| Niels Ln Doky's TED talk [0] helped me understand and
| appreciate Jazz.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/3ee-XROfON0
| freejazz wrote:
| Do you have an auditory syndrome or something? are there any
| melodies at all, outside of jazz, that you like? or even
| recognize as melodies???
| Biganon wrote:
| See, this is why I hate jazz fans.
|
| Yes, there are many people out there who love music but don't
| appreciate jazz. That's okay.
| freejazz wrote:
| I know it's okay. That's why I asked if there is music that
| the poster recognizes as music. The poster didn't describe
| it as music that they didn't like, they described it as a
| "mishmash" of sounds. Kind of Blue isn't even particularly
| "mashy". You're a bit obnoxious yourself.
| pie420 wrote:
| This is like listening to beethoven's 9th symphony and
| saying "i dont understand this, this barely sounds like
| music". It's hard to actually address the comment
| seriously. It's like saying the mona lisa is barely art, or
| that the '68 corvette is barely a car. Unless the OP
| eaborates, you have to assume he's rage-baiting or
| trolling.
| Daz1 wrote:
| Yeah agreed, always thought it was an average album.
| gooseyard wrote:
| I've been playing jazz most of my life and one of the most
| frustrating parts of it has been this idea that there should be
| some immediately obvious virtue in jazz as a musical style. If
| you're a musician who enjoys improvisation, chances are good
| that you'll be drawn to jazz, especially to recorded works from
| the era of albums like Kind of Blue. But you aren't some kind
| of philistine if it doesn't hook you.
|
| For example, I have studied a lot of classical repertoire in
| order to get my technique together to improve my jazz playing,
| and while I appreciate those compositions, I don't really
| listen to them for pleasure. My opinion about their value as
| works of art is not based on whether I enjoy them or not. I
| don't enjoy many types of food but I recognize that they have
| enormous value to people who do enjoy them. We like what we
| like, and we shouldn't judge styles on the basis of whether we
| like them or not.
|
| If you listen to a record like Kind of Blue and it doesn't do
| anything for you, don't sweat it. You wouldn't be a better
| person for liking it, and no true lover of jazz would judge you
| on the basis of whether you like that record or not. If you're
| genuinely curious, listen to other jazz records from the era,
| maybe you'll like those. If you don't, no big whoop. There's a
| lot of music to love. Listen to what you like.
| cfn wrote:
| Great answer. I would add that ones taste may change with
| time, mine certainly did. I couldn't see the point of jazz as
| a youngster but came to enjoy it greatly later in life.
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| Totally agree. People often approach music with a very rigid
| black/white mindset that only blinds them to the beauty of
| music in all its forms. I don't like sushi but I can
| appreciate the craft behind it and experience the collection
| of sensations that I go through when I consume sushi
| riwsky wrote:
| Local man listens to Kind of Blue, remarks "So What"
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| And then hums the lick
| buserror wrote:
| You could try Dave Brubeck "time out" as an introduction to
| jazz, it is awesome in many ways and has quite a few catchier
| tunes. Also Bill Evans Trio and listen to that first. Only
| problem is that you'll be addicted for life afterward, but it's
| not that bad as a habit :-)
| tjr wrote:
| Like many jazz albums of its era, this one uses a pretty
| typical standard jazz sort of formula, to wit, roughly[0]
|
| - The whole ensemble plays an arrangement of the melody of the
| tune
|
| - After playing the melody through, the group jumps into a
| series of alternating solos, in which each band member
| improvises new melodic ideas on top of the chord progression of
| the original melody
|
| - After the solos are done, the original melody is returned to,
| either in full or an part, to recapitulate the initial theme
| and bring the performance to a conclusion
|
| Do this (more or less) for each track on the album.
|
| It's really not necessarily obvious at first. It can help to
| follow along with sheet music.
|
| But what is the genius? Or, how is this particular jazz album
| more genius than another? Say, how is it more genius than
| "Relaxin' with the Miles Davis Quintet" which was recorded
| earlier (and also very good)? I think a lot of it is the
| particular ensemble on this record. Miles brought together a
| lot of truly exceptional musicians, and they all brought their
| own bit of genius to their own performance.
|
| If you have a jazz performance with a great trumpeter, paired
| with an okay pianist, an okay drummer, and an okay bassist,
| then the whole performance likely won't be genius. But if you
| pair a genius trumpeter with a genius pianist, a genius
| drummer, etc., then you'll likely get better results.
| Especially if they are all kind of genius in the same
| direction.
|
| On top of that, this particular album was exploring a new
| compositional style that emphasized modal composition rather
| than the more typical dominaint-tonic-oriented composition.
| There was a freshness to it, both for listeners at the time,
| and for the players themselves. They were exploring this sort
| of sound for the first time, and were enjoying it, bringing
| that mentality to how they performed.
|
| [0] Roughly indeed! I don't remember offhand if every track on
| Kind of Blue follows this exactly.
| jsz0 wrote:
| The best advice I can give anyone trying to appreciate jazz is
| to think of it like listening to a conversation in an
| unfamiliar foreign language. You don't have to understand the
| literal meaning of the words/notes to infer their emotional
| tone, pacing, and the ebb and flow of the conversation. Jazz in
| this way is an abstraction of spoken language. It communicates
| a vibe or general emotional landscape that you can interrupt
| for yourself in a personal way.
|
| As a more accessible starting point I'd actually recommend
| Miles Davis's Porgy and Bess album. It's a hybrid of Gershwin's
| composed music and jazz. Being more structured than most jazz
| recordings it will give you some context/framework to enjoy the
| jazzy parts. Most of the songs are short and digestible.
| exitb wrote:
| People are acting all shocked, but I do feel that jazz is an
| acquired taste. Go listen to something like Jazz at the
| Pawnshop by Arne Domnerus - it's lighter and more playful. If
| you're into electronic music, you can also listen to nu jazz
| and acid jazz records to get some of the jazz "vocabulary"
| mixed into other genres.
| aEJ04Izw5HYm wrote:
| If you aren't used to the conversation it sounds too foreign to
| be appreciated. You'll likely have had the experience of being
| around foreign language speakers, some you'll be more
| comfortable with than others even though you don't understand a
| word that are saying. Think Manga with the subtitles on or
| Italian opera. So it is with musicians and their jazz
| conversation. It takes a lot of experience and listening to
| really feel the jam and synchronisation. It's very rewarding if
| you put the time in. Took me ten years or so mainly invested in
| just three lauded jazz albums.
| javier123454321 wrote:
| Why do you want to listen to it if you don't like it? It's
| music that moves a lot of people, and gives an incredible depth
| if you want to also analyze it. If you don't even get touched
| emotionally then it's not for you.
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| This is like grabbing a book from a Japanese store and
| complaining that it just seems like a mishmash of strokes. You
| don't just grab a Japanese book. You learn what it is first,
| the different writing systems, the grammar and then you start
| reading small sentences that build into paragraphs then groups
| of paragraphs. Then pages and then eventually books.
|
| Familiarise yourself with the standards and then let the
| infinitude of variations of them be your journey to the
| PRACTICE of jazz
| WalterSear wrote:
| I recently read that Miles was delving deeply into the Lydian
| Chromatic concept when he was composing for this.
|
| I haven't been able to find out more about this, or how much it
| actually influenced him or his preparation for Kind of Blue, but
| it's about as strong an endorsement for Barry Harris's work as it
| gets.
| cbzbc wrote:
| > I haven't been able to find out more about this, or how much
| it actually influenced him or his preparation for Kind of Blue,
| but it's about as strong an endorsement for Barry Harris's work
| as it gets.
|
| You mean George Russell? And my impression is that it was
| influential with Miles because it was one of the early examples
| of the modal/horizontal approach being fleshed out as text over
| and above it being LCC specifically.
|
| Harris' approach is based on what he calls the sixth diminished
| scale.
| WalterSear wrote:
| Doh! I'm messing up my Jazz theorists.
|
| Yes, George Russell. Barry Harris just keeps popping up in my
| youtube algorithm.
| hamburglar wrote:
| It does seem like there is an explosion of Barry Harris
| enthusiasm on YouTube in the last 6 months or so. I was
| wondering if I'd done something to make my algorithm latch
| onto it.
| richardfontana wrote:
| Indeed, I would say Barry Harris's music is characterized
| by a complete rejection of the George Russell legacy. Barry
| Harris's music is sort of like what jazz would have been
| like if _Kind of Blue_ had never happened.
| vjulian wrote:
| There are a few pieces of music that I avoid listening to too
| frequently. That's because I find them to be too beautiful, too
| profound and--illogically--I don't want to wear them out. Perhaps
| also because I find myself consistently in tears when listening
| to them, at times even when thinking about them (as I am now).
| One of those pieces is Blue In Green, as recorded for Kind of
| Blue. God Bless Bill Evans.
| appel wrote:
| Out of curiosity and if you don't mind me asking, would you
| mind listing the others?
| vjulian wrote:
| Beethoven quartet opus 135, especially the third movement.
| Several others, about an album or two worth of music. Ravel's
| quartet is up there. I melt when I hear George Duke's rhodes
| solo on Blessed Relief (a great piece overall). Stuff like
| that.
| smingo wrote:
| Barber's _Adagio for strings_ , although it gets referenced
| enough; Khachaturian's _Spartacus and Phrygia_ , especially
| the brass version; Holst's _planets_ , esp Uranus;
| Beethoven's 7th; Gorecki's 3rd.
| signalToNose wrote:
| For me it's Bach: Erbarme dich, mein Gott.
|
| In this version:
| https://youtu.be/BBeXF_lnj_M?si=kPTUsAB19_RyECO5
| dadoomer wrote:
| Some of mine include Bach's violin partita 3, Beethoven's
| 9, and Mahler 1.
| salimmadjd wrote:
| Add a few more that others may not mention:
|
| Brahms symphony 4 - 1st movement Brahms symphony 3 - 3rd
| movement Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 3
|
| Jazz
|
| Duke Ellington & John Coltrane In a Sentimental Mood My
| Little Brown Book
|
| Dave Brubeck Quartet Koto Song
|
| Rock
|
| Pink Floyd Echos (from Meddle ) Animals
| AlbertCory wrote:
| _Ein Deutsches Requiem_
|
| greatest choral music ever written
| aworks wrote:
| Interesting. The entire Kind of Blue album has the opposite
| effect. If I hear the music now, it pleasantly tranports me
| back to the early 1980s when I bought it as one of my first
| CDs. Then I go on to focus on the music...
| noman-land wrote:
| Bill's chords just hit different.
| golol wrote:
| I very much agree with this sentiment. For me it is the 9th
| symphony that I don't want to wear out.
| gimmeThaBeet wrote:
| For a given jazz standard, if the renditions exist, chances are
| my favorite one is either Bill Evans or Oscar Peterson on
| piano. He's like if Chopin learned jazz.
|
| My potentially hot take is Blue in Green is Coltrane's best
| solo on the album. It's purely a taste thing, the best way I
| can describe it is Coltrane frequently breaks my sense of
| immersion in a song.
|
| I don't know if it's because Adderly wasn't on that one or
| what, but it's pretty much the only track where I feel where he
| gave the track what it needed instead of what he wanted.
| hypertexthero wrote:
| I often find that my favorite solo in a piece of jazz music
| is the one by the accompanying musician.
|
| Example: George Benson's guitar in Freddie Hubbard's First
| Light title track:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwvxiBEPDdA
| slmjkdbtl wrote:
| Yes.. Good music, or any good art are consumables.. I'll always
| "like" them but that visceral feeling won't always happen.
| jredwards wrote:
| That's interesting. For me, this is an album that never gets
| old and I can always put on. My favorite piece is "So What,"
| which is conveniently at the front. I often put this album on
| when I want to relax. It's one of my all-time favorites.
| thangalin wrote:
| For folks wanting to learn a little more about the history of
| blues music, please have a read, look, and listen:
|
| https://dave.autonoma.ca/playlists/blues/dancing
|
| Apparently there are issues with the videos on Safari/iPhone. A
| hint to a fix would be welcome.
| csmpltn wrote:
| I'm classically trained, love all sorts of music, play live, jam
| and compose. I've went to countless jazz concerts and nights, and
| continue to do so today.
|
| I just don't get jazz at all. It's fun to mess around on stage,
| and play free form. But it also ends up sounding that way to the
| listener: like some mess that must be fun to play...
|
| I was stuck on a long drive a couple of years back, driver had
| Swissjazz FM on the whole time. Felt like a form of torture ;)
| tommysve wrote:
| There are so many different kinds of jazz. I guess you have not
| listened to Kind of Blue.
| zabzonk wrote:
| have you actually listened to "kind of blue"? or (for e.g.)
| "sketches of spain"? i can't see how either could be classified
| as "some mess", though everyone's taste is different.
| GoofballJones wrote:
| I like some of it, but I agree with you on most of jazz. Kind
| of Blue is great though. It really is something special.
|
| But as I say, I agree with you on most other Jazz though. And
| I'm convinced that about 80% of the people that go around
| saying they love jazz are just pretending to.
|
| Also, along with Bluegrass, jazz is SO closed off to people
| who'd like to join in and play with a group. It's filled with
| gatekeepers and judgemental jerks. For instance, criticizing
| you for bringing a guita they don't agree with, "you can't play
| jazz with that, go home and get another something else there,
| Eddie Van Halen". Seriously, it can be that bad.
| gvurrdon wrote:
| > It's filled with gatekeepers and judgemental jerks.
|
| That's not been my experience playing jazz around my local
| area. I've never played jazz in New York but I have heard
| that all manner of ungentlemanly behaviour goes on in jams
| there and I suspect I'd be on the receiving end of it if I
| dared to try. Presumably acceptance of the newcomer is
| determined by the size of the existing pool of talent. Rural
| England is not well supplied with jazz musicians of any skill
| level (or discerning audiences) so we can't really afford to
| treat them rudely. I'm not really a guitarist, but the last
| time I played one at a jam it was one of these:
| https://www.andertons.co.uk/brands/gl-guitars/asat-
| guitars/g...
| donbrae wrote:
| Interesting, as most jazz is not freeform and typically follows
| an agreed chord sequence. Certainly, jazz improvisation tends
| to feature lots of notes, often played at fast tempos, but
| 'messing around' it definitely isn't. Jazz improv requires
| years of concerted practice and deep thinking. If you analyse a
| great jazz solo, it becomes clear that it isn't random notes,
| or a 'mess'. To me it's astonishing that anyone can create
| something so intricately structured on the fly. Of course,
| you're free not to like it.
| Rochus wrote:
| > _love all sorts of music, play live, jam and compose...don't
| get jazz_
|
| But what is your definition of "jam" then? Is it improvised at
| all?
|
| I have the opposite approach; I like classical music very much
| and have listened to it a lot, but for many years now I've only
| been improvising; the idea is to sound in real time as if it
| were composed and practiced; meanwhile I can play a whole band
| live myself (e.g. http://rochus-keller.ch/?p=1268). I've always
| found it a torture to read and learn a piece and always play it
| back the same (correct) way.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| I don't think there's any profound secret to jazz - except that
| it used to be a lifestyle and a kind of identity politics. If
| you played or liked jazz you were A Certain Kind of Person in a
| way that mattered in the late 50s. Not so much today.
|
| Musically it's a combination of atmosphere and passion with a
| cerebral edge, with harmonies that are spicy and colourful but
| not atonally exotic and incomprehensible.
|
| It's improvised moment-by-moment riffs and conversations over a
| chord chart and some loose linear and structural traditions. It
| doesn't have the grand architecture of classical music or the
| cheeky crowd-pleasing crudity and playfulness of pop.
|
| Genres either hit you or they don't. It's fine not to like
| something.
| jdietrich wrote:
| You're listening to a conversation in a foreign language. Jazz
| has a fundamentally different theoretical and idiomatic basis
| to classical music. If you didn't grow up with blues, gospel
| and show tunes, you're missing most of the vocabulary and
| context needed to make sense of jazz. I'd strongly recommend
| listening to that stuff because it's fantastic, but there is a
| bit of a shortcut - learn to hear jazz one tune at a time.
|
| Here's the tune _Softly, As In A Morning Sunrise_ , as Sigmund
| Romberg wrote it:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy_L8VVu7-c
|
| And now, as a variety of jazz musicians heard it:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSeFc3CP5Mk
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlViBYcZpJ0
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NG_wZFBM24
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dofsqZrE5sU
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaV51BuHfIw
|
| Do you hear how the melodic theme is stated, before the players
| improvise over the same chord progression? Do you hear how
| fragments of the main melody are woven into the solos? Do you
| hear the interplay between the musicians as they rotate between
| accompaniment and soloing? Do you hear how each ensemble
| creates a distinct mood from the same basic starting point? If
| you do, then you're starting to hear the language of jazz.
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| > I'm classically trained [...] I just don't get jazz at all.
|
| Listen to the Brubeck Quartet's "Dave Digs Disney".
|
| If you still "don't get" jazz after that experience, my guess
| would be that your formal training installed dogmatic opinions.
| WalterSear wrote:
| > I just don't get jazz at all. It's fun to mess around on
| stage, and play free form
|
| IMHO, that's so unusual in a jazz setting that it's almost
| always expressly declared as such - ie "free jazz" or
| "experimental". And even that relies primarily on preparation
| and practice to be done well.
|
| IMHO, performing jazz is a delicate process of painting within
| the lines - so that you don't tread on the toes of everyone
| playing with you - lines you are all expected to know if you
| are going to get on stage and play a specific song together -
| while creating the illusion that you are all just messing
| about. And you are doing that while navigating a complex
| conjugation of harmonic structures, substitutions and
| alternatives, while seamlessly recombining the songs' melody
| with jazz idioms, rehearsed licks and runs, and admittedly,
| some improvisation, all while you try to say something new and
| original that your audience will be interested to hear.
|
| So, you have to lean a lot on preparation and personal
| rehearsal (and group rehearsal), because you are listening,
| reacting and managing so many things at once that if you can't
| rely on muscle memory to keep up with the chord changes, and
| haven't sufficiently navigated several ways through them ahead
| of time (what if one of your bandmates decides to reharmonize
| some section in a way that precludes the scales you were
| planning to use to get through it?), you'll fall on your face.
| dahart wrote:
| Out of curiosity, even the standards and big-band arrangements,
| or vocal stuff with Ella, Louis, or Frank?
|
| Take a close look at Bach's violin sonatas; they seem like jazz
| to me compared to a lot of his work; they have lots of wild
| chords with 7ths and 6ths and 2nds, they are wandering and
| improvisational feeling.
|
| Some jazz gives me the same feeling you're describing, and I
| think you're onto something with it being fun to play... a lot
| of it is musician's music. Watching sporting events gives me
| the same feeling... good for the players, not as good for me,
| I'd rather be playing, or doing something else.
| javier123454321 wrote:
| I personally cannot relate to what you're saying, as I'm sure
| you'd feel about people saying they don't like classical. One
| thing that we probably can agree on though is that there is
| jazz out there which is definitely written to showcase the
| player's skill rather than to create beautiful music, which I
| also don't care much for.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I just turned on Swissjazz FM, as I've never heard of it, and
| man yeah, if this playlist on here is what you think of as what
| jazz is then I agree, I don't like it either! I'd have asked
| them to turn it off too. The songs on this playlist are what
| happens when you take a traditionally Black art form, ignore
| all of those roots, wash it through a university, and make
| something that is likely going to be consumed by a white
| audience.
|
| There's so much going on in 'jazz' music, but for me personally
| I'm always listening to it (and all music, really) rhythmically
| first, and all the harmonic and melodic components, everything
| else, comes out of the rhythm. That tends to be the opposite
| approach of European classical music (which of course I like
| too).
|
| I don't know what your taste in music is, but there's a ton of
| great music out there that falls under the label jazz. Since
| you're in the classical world, here's some recordings that
| might speak to you:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VlOigfm-ww
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMTHsK3MlzA
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIIyCOAByDU
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0O9L7KXkC0&list=OLAK5uy_l61...
|
| And some live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BE_gi4YkA (my
| friend's group)
|
| https://youtu.be/lhgaJ_kDLPg?feature=shared&t=23 (particularly
| Afro Blue)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuEVN3BTFHM
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGY9HvChXk
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA9GhIyP_zI
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM5Cj8yFkOQ
|
| I don't know, the rabbit hole is deep I could go on forever.
| chrisdhoover wrote:
| KCSM is an all jazz station worthy of a listen
| thefaux wrote:
| The jazz/classical split is a false dichotomy. Bill Evans more
| or less implies that he saw himself as coming out of the
| classical tradition: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QwXAqIaUahI
|
| This video is an excellent musing on creativity and learning
| that I think is relevant even for nonmusicians.
| Spastche wrote:
| honestly, Fusion is about the only thing worth listening to,
| and even then, it's mostly wank too
|
| suggestions: Tony Williams Lifetime, Miles Davis 1969 - 1975,
| Mahavishnu Orchestra, Jaco, Weather Report
|
| Davis's music is pretty much about as pure rhythm as you can
| get outside of electronic music. it's so far beyond jazz that
| you can hear so many modern genres in something like On The
| Corner, it's crazy. and it was hated originally, too. jazz
| rejected evolution, so now it's stuck as some dead academic
| genre
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| You don't have to get it. Some people don't get classical.
| Others don't get country and so on. I feel like sometimes treat
| music taste as if it was a science while it should be treated
| more like food. You don't all have to like or dislike the same
| things :)
|
| Also, "classically trained" is irrelevant. Having a background
| on a specific kind of music doesn't grant you authority or
| insight into a different kind of music
| aEJ04Izw5HYm wrote:
| Radio Station: "Giants of Jazz" was an absolute revelation to me
| discovering only absolute classics over the past 50 years. 'In a
| silent way' is still my favourite MD album. Reading the
| "Miles:The autobiography" while listening through his discography
| was one of my favourite ever reading experiences, thoroughly
| recommended.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| You might enjoy this lovely little anecdote from John
| McLaughlin.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sB5UkrkMu4
| aEJ04Izw5HYm wrote:
| lol. He's like (silent) jazz (crack loving) Yoda. Man, I love
| in a silent way.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| "Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny"
| Rochus wrote:
| Who said that?
| fifticon wrote:
| Frank Zappa reputedly.
| donatj wrote:
| Is it a stylistic choice to refer to a "mic" as a "mike"? I've
| never seen that before.
| helloplanets wrote:
| I'd assume. 'Mike' is a pretty common shorthand. Feels like
| it's more of an older generation thing to spell it like that,
| though.
| elbelcho wrote:
| If you're looking for a comprehensible to mortals explanation of
| the genius that can be found in Jazz, watch this explainer on
| Coltrane's Giant Steps.
|
| https://youtu.be/62tIvfP9A2w
| aczerepinski wrote:
| Fantastic record. It's nice to see any kind of spotlight shined
| on jazz but don't let nostalgia for the past stop you from
| discovering the elite music being created today. So many jazz
| message boards and higher ed curriculums focus exclusively on the
| jazz of the 40s and 50s. Miles for one would have disapproved.
| frakt0x90 wrote:
| Strongly agree. See artists such as Domi and JD Beck, Snarky
| Puppy, Jesus Molina, Sungazer, Greg Mehldau, Sullivan
| Fortner... The list goes on.
|
| There are some extremely great jazz musicians out there today.
| akrain wrote:
| Thanks for the suggestions. I will surely give them a try.
| The only recent Jazz musician that I have heard is Kamasi
| Washington.
| navbaker wrote:
| Julian Lage and Kurt Rosenwinkle are another couple of
| guitarists to check out. Deep Song, by Kurt, and Gladwell,
| by Julian, are great entry points into their music!
| zeruch wrote:
| Kamasi is a current darling. Right now two schools are en
| vogue: a more fusiony, dancable crossover kind where groups
| like Snarky Puppy, Mononeon, Thundercat and Sungazer are up
| front, and a more traditionally anchored, but edgier sonic
| architecture is applied kind of school populated by Kamasi,
| James Hurt, Robert Glasper, Daniel Casimir, Shabaka
| Hutchings, and anything on the Brownswood or Jazz
| Re:freshed labels...
| drpfenderson wrote:
| Great suggestions! I would expand that list with a couple
| more modern recommends, like Kamasi Washington, Shabaka And
| The Ancestors, Nubya Garcia, or even Portico Quartet. Some
| Jazz/fusion-adjacent acts as well, such as BADBADNOTGOOD, The
| Comet is Coming, or Thundercat. The genre is thriving today.
| Velofellow wrote:
| taking the coattails of your comment with great artists to
| throw out The Bad Plus. Fantastic body of work, highly
| creative and absolutely rocking jazz band. Granted, I'm
| most familiar with their Ethan Iverson discography. Dave
| King (drummer) is exciting as hell to watch.
|
| To the uninitiated but curious - start with their mind
| blowing covers and branch out from there.
| spacechild1 wrote:
| Dave King also has a truly hilarios Youtube channel
| called "Rational Funk": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tK-
| hfpvwivg
|
| It's a series of satirical "inspirational" drum
| instruction videos. Sadly, he stopped making new episodes
| a while ago.
| Velofellow wrote:
| oh heck yeah! This flew under my radar. Excited to check
| this out, thanks for sharing.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Hey can you expand the list please? Just the names would be
| more than enough :)
|
| Anything in the vein of Miles / Coltrane / Ornette Coleman
| etc
| Spastche wrote:
| >Snarky Puppy
|
| I always read that name as Skinny Puppy and it happened this
| time too
| embwbam wrote:
| Any modern trumpet players you love?
| aczerepinski wrote:
| Yes! Terence Blanchard is still around and sounding great,
| and from the generation after him I'd single out Ambrose
| Akinmusire and Avashai Cohen.
| nkko wrote:
| Wow, a lot of great suggestions. I have been stuck in the
| Spotify bubble with Miles on repeat. Not sure even how would
| this work but, here is the invite to the Spotify playlist to
| which I am trying to add all of the suggestions. Feel free to
| edit it: https://tinyurl.com/HNJazz
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Don't take this wrong, but So What?
|
| https://youtu.be/zqNTltOGh5c
| kristofferR wrote:
| Kind of Bloop - An 8-Bit Tribute to Miles Davis' Kind of Blue
|
| https://kindofbloop.com/
|
| Sidenote, the author was sued to oblivion for his tribute album
| art:
|
| https://waxy.org/2011/06/kind_of_screwed/
| RaoulP wrote:
| > https://waxy.org/2011/06/kind_of_screwed/
|
| That is crazy, and eye-opening.
|
| > It breaks my heart that a project I did for fun, on the side,
| and out of pure love and dedication to the source material
| ended up costing me so much -- emotionally and financially. For
| me, the chilling effect is palpably real. I've felt
| irrationally skittish about publishing almost anything since
| this happened.
|
| I feel sad for the author.
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