[HN Gopher] Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?
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Bookish Diversions: Do Audiobooks Count?
Author : benbreen
Score : 24 points
Date : 2024-03-02 14:12 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.millersbookreview.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.millersbookreview.com)
| snowfield wrote:
| Sidenote: Book publishers seem to refuse to embrace digital.
|
| I just love going to my local library to "rent" a digital book on
| my Kindle only to be told that there's no availabile "copies"
|
| Is love to read more on Kindle or other book readers if there was
| an actual good platform that was embraced by both national and
| international authors. Same with audio books for that matter.
| It's even worse than streaming somehow
| ghaff wrote:
| Whenever I've looked at my library's digital offerings, I've
| been pretty underwhelmed. Still, I buy most of my books in
| digital form.
| Neff wrote:
| One approach I've seen people take is to get non-resident
| library cards to large library systems like the NY Public
| Library or the Chicago Library. You can put multiple library
| cards into Overdrive/Libby/whatever and then you can see
| availability for all the valid cards you have.
|
| And isn't this "available digital copy" issue at the heart of
| the lawsuit the Internet Archives is dealing with when they
| stopped placing copy limits on digital books at the start of
| the pandemic?
| hagbard_c wrote:
| The platform exists but it is probably not what you want:
| Library Genesis. Publishers insist on pushing paper-book
| characteristics like 'wear and tear' to digital copies in
| libraries so they can only be lent out a given number of times
| or a certain number of months after which they are 'worn out'
| and the library needs to buy a new copy. Here are some of the
| rules set by different publishers [1]:
|
| Penguin Random House: one copy/one user, metered access: titles
| expire after 24 months, then library must repurchase
|
| Hachette Livre: one copy/one user, metered access: titles
| expire after 24 months, then library must repurchase
|
| HarperCollins: one copy/one user, metered access: titles expire
| after 26 checkouts, then library must repurchase
|
| Macmillan: one copy/one user, libraries limited to 1 copy of
| newest titles for the first 8 weeks after publication, metered
| access: most titles expire after 24 months or 52 checkouts
| (whichever comes first), then library must repurchase
|
| Simon & Schuster: one copy/one user, metered access: titles
| expire after 24 months, then library must repurchase
|
| Ebooks are priced at 2 to 4 times the retail rice when sold to
| libraries.
|
| A question to those working in publishing: where does the
| revenue end up? Is this another example of a rent-seeking
| scheme like Elsevier/Wiley et al. have been up to in scientific
| publishing or does it work like Spotify where at least part of
| the revenue goes to the authors?
|
| [1] https://cheshirelibraryblog.com/2019/09/10/why-do-i-have-
| to-...
| pbrowne011 wrote:
| Treating all audiobooks equally is a mistake. Audio books are a
| transformation function applied to physical books. Asking whether
| they count as books is asking the wrong question. The more
| important question is: "what am I trying to get out of reading
| this book? And will an audiobook help me to do this better?"
|
| The answer to this question will be unique to every person and
| every book. I read quite a few books for the entertainment value
| they provide - I like getting lost in a good novel occasionally
| without having to reflect too seriously on each passage.
| Audiobooks provide a convenient means of enabling me to enjoy the
| book, especially if driving, commuting, or performing some other
| task. However, if I am reading a nonfiction book, I want the book
| in front of me so I can double back to certain passages, check
| references and footnotes, write in the margins, skip to chapters
| and pages. I want more control over the reading experience. The
| audiobook forces me to trade all of that for an experience it
| provides.
|
| I think for some people, audiobooks can end up like podcasts.
| People will sometimes listen to podcasts with intelligent people
| in the hopes that they learn something from the podcast. Maybe by
| listening to interviews with a famous mathematician or startup
| founder, one can learn some crucial aspect of becoming a
| successful mathematician or founder. However, the main value one
| gets out of podcasts is entertainment. Because you typically
| engage passively with a podcast, you are less likely to retain
| some useful bit of information that you hope to get.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I tried podcasts and the majority of them are not different
| from tv shows or news cast, maybe not raw entertainment but
| it's in that bag. Sometimes you end up with someone presenting
| a new idea just right, but it's not common.
| browningstreet wrote:
| I find that the podcasts I listen to reveal a strikingly
| different thing when people can talk for 1-3 hours about
| something. It's between what we were used to on television
| and a book. But as a dialogue.
|
| Less true for Joe Rogan but more true for Rich Roll.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Fair point, but there a many long podcasts where the host
| and the guest can't connect enough and it's more of a
| technical-ish chat versus a learning moment.
| britzkopf wrote:
| It's for a similar reason that I find eReaders to be so
| disappointing. I have no interest in color or other aesthetic
| innovations, but I'm very interested in _speed_. I feel they
| have yet to reach some threshold such that I can confidently
| navigate backwards and forwards any number of pages at a time
| without losing focus. I 'm they're current implementation none
| of them come close to physical books for that, but I feel like
| they could if that were the goal.
| icepat wrote:
| Indeed - there's a lot of "UX features" in books that make
| them ideal. Something as simple as jamming your thumb between
| where you want to go back to, and where you are going.
| Another point for notebooks as well. I prefer a paper journal
| to a Notion document for the same reasons.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I actually have the opposite experience, at least with the
| books I read. Nonfiction is typically highly repetitive and
| redundant so I find it suits audiobooks far better. Meanwhile
| fiction has a lot of subtle nuance and rewards carefully
| reading each sentence.
|
| Of course this depends on what books you read in each category,
| if it's a physics textbook vs Colleen Hoover then it's the
| opposite.
| guywhocodes wrote:
| I've found this to be particularly true with William Gibson,
| tried to listen to some but a split second lapses in
| attention forcing me to go back often and I gave up. And just
| pick up a text.
| importantbrian wrote:
| This probably depends on the person. I have the same experience
| as you. I exclusively use audiobooks for fiction. If I'm
| reading for information I have to read a physical book. My wife
| is the complete opposite though. She retains the information
| much better if she hears it. She is dyslexic though so I'm sure
| that plays a big role.
| jazzsouff wrote:
| I agree, but just the opposite for me. I prefer owning physical
| copies of fiction books, and listen to nonfiction audiobooks.
| Usually I find non-fiction books to have a lot of repetition.
| Of course it depends on the book, but I just feel that if I
| miss a passage, it won't be as confusing as missing a sentence
| of a good novel.
| A_D_E_P_T wrote:
| Depends on the type of book.
|
| Airport thrillers, supermarket romance novels, pulp horror,
| Agatha Christie mysteries, and so on along such lines -- these
| don't really require any reader participation. They're the print
| equivalent of film and TV; they pull you along a narrative, and
| you're a passenger for the duration. These sorts of books work
| very well as audiobooks.
|
| Anything that requires thought or reflection -- and this includes
| "hard" science fiction, as well as anything of a technical nature
| -- is very difficult for me to consume in audiobook form. I
| frequently lose track or zone out, and then I find that I've
| missed something important. Also, I can't take notes in an
| audiobook.
| Eudaimion wrote:
| I completely agree that different types of books need to be
| approached differently.
|
| I especially look for Progression Fantasy books(zero reader
| participation needed) to listen to when I don't have the energy
| to consume anything serious.
|
| I've also had interesting experiences with some technical non-
| fiction books, where I've zoned into the content and understood
| it better than I would have reading it.
| ryanchants wrote:
| I treat technical audiobooks as pre-recorded lectures. I put
| them on and sit with a piece of paper and a pencil and take
| notes.
| medler wrote:
| Any recommendations of technical audiobooks you've liked?
| ghaff wrote:
| A very long time ago I used a cassettes by mail rental service
| for my commute. It was great for fiction--especially shorter
| more easily digestible fiction. It really wasn't good for
| military history or anything that really benefited from maps or
| other graphics. As I recall, I mostly just defaulted to fiction
| after a few attempts.
| erredois wrote:
| One example that I enjoyed listening was The Count ot Mount
| Cristo. The story is long, it boring a lot of times, but a good
| narrator with good French pronunciation makes it more
| enjoyable. And being able to phase out during the boring parts
| is a good feature.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I didn't find any of it boring, I feel it's actually very
| well paced and exciting throughout. I really didn't expect
| that going in due to the length.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| > Agatha Christie mysteries
|
| These definitely invite reader participation. They are designed
| like puzzles, like the rest of the whodunit genre. I have more
| trouble with such stories than with hard SF in audiobook
| format, as the scientific concepts in hard SF are usually well
| explained and hard to miss.
|
| "Light" technical writing is usually fine in audiobook format,
| and by light, I usually mean writing that doesn't have
| exercises. Other things that work really well as audiobooks is
| if you are learning a spoken foreign language.
| shagie wrote:
| I'm gonna go the other way on that book / audiobook part.
|
| Several times, I had tried to read Anathem... and I'd get a 100
| or so pages into the book and start "skipping" the boring parts
| and then I'd lose the feel of the narrative and put it down to
| try again in a year or two. At which point I'd repeat it.
|
| It wasn't until I got the audiobook that I was required to not
| skim/skip the "boring" parts that I was able to enjoy it in its
| totality.
|
| There are other things that the audio book forces upon the
| listener - and less than ideal writing becomes more apparent. I
| did a listen of The Saga of Recluce in chronological order (not
| written order) and you could certainly feel which ones were
| written earlier (less about that person's "mechanics" with
| magic) and later ("I can do that" x 100). I also listened to
| the Foundation series (Prelude to Foundation onward)... the
| 1950s were _jaring_ in things I 'd skip over before (everyone
| was smoking) and Foundation's Edge was a bit awkward... the
| first chapter Foundation and Earth was were I stopped listening
| (I had read it before). With the Foundation, the writing and
| lecturing and "always right when it mattered" where things that
| were more difficult to listen to than to read. I wonder if the
| Second Foundation series by Benford, Brin, and Bear is
| something I can enjoy listening to.
|
| My current listen is A Wizard of Earthsea which I feel _really_
| works well with an audio format - it feels more like a
| listening of the Odyssey in its epic style - and that was much
| better listened to than read. I 'm curious how Always Coming
| Home will be (I read it long ago - enjoyed it then... but I
| know I skimmed over a lot trying to find the best parts).
|
| I throughly enjoyed listening to The Interdependency series by
| John Scalzi in part because Wil Wheaton had the proper amount
| of snark and comfort with casual vulgarity that was part of the
| book that fit the characters better than I could form in my own
| mind.
|
| For the most part, I've found that I have enjoyed listening to
| books as they often (to me) feel closer to the author's vision
| than what I can imagine. I enjoy reading too - and quickly read
| some books, but I've found myself coming back to the audio
| versions to enjoy them.
| Vingdoloras wrote:
| To me, pausing to reflect is less of a problem compared to
| getting distracted and losing my place or having to read the
| same paragraph over and over again. Back when I had a 40+
| minute train commute (and was working in the office all week,
| pre-pandemic), I used to listen to audiobooks on 1.5-3x, while
| also reading the actual book at the same time. That worked
| wonders for me, and it's easy enough to pause an audio book
| with headset controls to reflect on something.
| RheingoldRiver wrote:
| Listening to audiobooks is reading, end of story. Quit
| gatekeeping, free time to sit with a book & do nothing else
| concurrently is a huge luxury.
|
| FWIW, recently I've started listening to audiobooks of nonfiction
| books while also reading along with the physical copy. Sometimes
| I pause the audiobook to jot notes down in the margins. I listen
| at about 3x speed so this helps me go a LOT faster than I could
| read myself and I also get the benefit of being able to _write_
| as I go, which imo makes a much bigger difference in retention
| than anything else (plus I can look back at my notes later). For
| fiction I just listen, usually while doing jigsaw puzzles at the
| same time.
| fritzo wrote:
| Agreed. I notice daily fluctuation in my relative aptitudes for
| visually vs aurally ingesting media. On days when vision feels
| tough, I'll use osx screen reader at ~3x speed while looking at
| the document. Seeing the document helps me navigate, but I
| stumble when trying to parse sentences w/o the reader. Other
| days, I appreciate flitting around visually, parsing sentences
| nonlinearly and glancing back and ahead.
| Swizec wrote:
| I like audiobooks for nonfiction. Especially anything business-y.
|
| I like to let the audiobook flow through me on long runs like a
| guided meditation on a topic. The end effect is like having the
| book's lessons embedded deep in your subconscious. There's a
| special magic in engaging with a single topic over several
| focused hours that I'm too distracted to reproduce with a
| physical book.
|
| If I need details or quotes from the book, or if I want to use it
| as a lookup reference, I like to then get the physical book. Now
| my audio read serves as a fast lookup table that helps me find
| the details.
| xetplan wrote:
| Totally agree. Audiobooks for me are for long car rides or my
| daily walks.
|
| Going for a walk with an audiobook is prime thinking time for
| me.
|
| So much depends on the voice actor for me though if I can
| really get into the book or not.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| Same here, and if the audiobook has ideas that grab my
| attention I'll often get the physical book to read later. I
| find that I can churn through several books a week and find a
| hidden gem in one that is worth following up.
|
| I'll gladly pay one Audible credit and 3-5 hours of my time
| while at the gym or running to find out a book isn't worth
| buying than pay 2-3x as much for the paperback and 9-15 hours
| of my time dedicated to reading it to find out the same.
| tejohnso wrote:
| > In terms of dollars, ebooks represent less than 7 percent of
| the entire U.S. book trade.
|
| This is surprising to me given the quality of e-readers out there
| now. The experience is quite nice, and you don't end up taking up
| a bunch of space or making a mess with physical books lying
| around.
| ghaff wrote:
| Ebooks aren't good for everything--especially on a smaller
| format eink reader. But I still find it a bit surprising, and
| I'm sure this is true of others as well, that ebooks didn't
| become more dominant--especially for fiction.
| Finnucane wrote:
| I oversee ebook production for a university press, and
| getting anything remotely complex to work right can still be
| challenging.
| ghaff wrote:
| It's gotten better. I tend to buy guidebooks preferentially
| on Kindle these days. But I still get cookbooks in
| hardcover unless they're a super-bargain as well as "coffee
| table books" of course.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Problem with ebooks is that you get product of a lesser value
| for a similar price. A paper book doesn't need a extra device
| you have to pay for, will outlast you with proper care, is DRM
| free and can be lent or resold. There is even a trend of
| treating physical books as collectors items, so you may even
| get some return on investment!
|
| Also "book trade" doesn't include piracy, which works as the
| "solution" to the value problem.
| ghaff wrote:
| For me, it's travel that's the big win. There's space at home
| as well (and moving if applicable) but that's mostly
| manageable if you prune things now and then. If I didn't
| travel by air I'd probably care a lot less.
| soneca wrote:
| I can't listen to fiction as audiobooks. I get very easily
| distracted in my own thoughts and, in most of fiction, if you
| miss anything you miss everything. While reading, that one line
| saying which character entered the room is enough context to
| understand the dialog of the next few pages. On audiobook, it's
| very easy, for me, to miss that line. So I am all the time
| thinking of something else, miss those lines, and realize I am
| completely lost. If I were to listen a fiction audiobook I would
| have to rewind 15 or 30 seconds every two or three minutes of
| book.
|
| I listen to a lot of podcasts, but interviews, journalistic
| storytelling, humor. Those are either very redundant, a lot of
| the context is being reminded in a conversation, or it's just
| doesn't matter all that much if you listen to every single thing
| is said in the podcast.
| Engineering-MD wrote:
| It's why I love to listen to audiobooks I've already read. I
| already know the context (even if subconsciously) and often
| gain things I missed reading them- I sometimes read too fast
| and skim over descriptions to see what happens.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I think there's a distinction between the activity of reading a
| book with the activity of listening to a book. That's pretty
| obvious to me. If I was listening to an audiobook, I would never
| say "I'm reading right now", any more than if I was reading a
| book, I would never say "I'm listening to a book right now". Both
| of those cases seem so incorrect as to be confusing.
|
| But if I am going through the list of books I "read" in the last
| year, I would include both printed and audio books in that list.
| In that sense, reading is used more like "consumed" or "studied"
| or "spent time with". It's not confusing to me in that context.
|
| I think it's safe to say that some of this comes down to people's
| sense of shame or fear of being judged. There should be no
| judgment attached to reading books or listening to them, they're
| just two different activities. It still counts if you listen to
| it.
| otikik wrote:
| There's a word, which I really dislike, which can be used for
| both.
|
| "Consume"
|
| "I have consumed a book"
|
| Eugh.
| throwup238 wrote:
| That brings to mind a Krampus-like demon eating books whole
| while everyone runs away from a burning library.
| nytesky wrote:
| "I consumed content"
|
| Captures the modern age...
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I say "I am reading X" when listening to it. I find my brain
| doesn't have a huge distinction, I'm often "reading" 10+ books
| at the same time in a mix of audio and print formats so I don't
| even remember which is which.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| I'm the same in that I'd say "oh I've been reading so and so"
| this week, but I think GP meant it in terms of the period
| when they're actively listening, like, "what are you doing
| right now?" "I'm listening to an audiobook."
| drewcoo wrote:
| I'm "auditing a book right now?" That was the original sense.
| tjoff wrote:
| Spotify etc. helped curb piracy because it was convenient. Ebooks
| should be convenient, but are not. The experience is much worse
| than physical books and barely any cheaper. It pains me everytime
| I try to buy one.
|
| Then came the ipad, and while the ipad is terrible for long
| reading it isn't obvious why an ebook would be better so most
| dismiss it right away.
| fritzo wrote:
| It is dismaying that used paperbacks are often cheaper than
| e-books. I am ashamed to admit that often buy used paperbacks,
| despite the negative ecological impact of shipping.
| BooneJS wrote:
| I like listening to The Great Courses on Audible. They're long
| and interesting, but they're nothing I'd take notes on, they're
| not anything that would change my life. I have used credits on a
| few nonfiction books, gotten 1/4 in, and bought the physical book
| because I wanted a better understanding of the material.
| gsich wrote:
| Audiobooks are a transfer from 2D to 1D. You can't skip boring
| lines, reread a passage.
| medler wrote:
| For me, audiobooks present good analogues for both these cases.
| I never skip lines in a book, but I might increase my reading
| speed if something is getting repetitive. Audiobooks also let
| you increase speed, and I often go to 2.5x or even 3x for low-
| information-content audiobooks.
|
| For re-reading, you can skip back 30 seconds to re-listen.
| queuebert wrote:
| Reading a book exercises a part of the brain that listening does
| not. And that same part of the brain, the quiet focus, is
| necessary to solve hard problems and reflect on your choices in
| life.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| For me it's the same experience in my brain either way. This
| didn't happen instantly though, I've done over 1000 audiobooks
| at this point and I could "feel" my brain rewiring how it
| processed them over time.
| MezzoDelCammin wrote:
| Seems we're fairly divided here between "audiobooks are for
| fiction" and "they work great as learning resource".
|
| How about a slight tangent / challenge: Try to give a few
| examples of "which" audiobooks/podcasts/lectures are in Your own
| personal Top 3 or so (and maybe why).
|
| My personal kickoff (I'm mostly in the fiction / "I need
| narrative" camp):
|
| 1. "The Poet's Corner" by John Lithgow (narrated by himself).
| This book probably converted me to even prefer audiobooks over
| regular paper / ebooks. Lithgow is a wonderful actor and in case
| of poetry, interpretation matters as much as the text itself. And
| the selection of different actors he brings in would be hard to
| beat even if it was done by a major Hollywood studio.
|
| 2. Bobiverse by Dennis E. Taylor, narrated by Ray Porter. If You
| like SF and haven't yet tried anything that's been narrated by
| Porter, please do yourself a favor and check his name out. I'll
| wait. The list is worth it.
|
| 3. Postwar by Tony Judt, narrated by Ralph Cosham. This one
| convinced me that what I need in an audiobooks is a narrative,
| but it does not necessarily need to be fiction. I'm a bity of a
| history nerd and reading one of the major works of 20th century
| in an audio form was the final straw that convinced me that
| audiobooks work great even for some non-fiction cases.
|
| Basically, whenever I see I have a chunk of 30+ minutes of time
| when I "can" get away with running on autopilot and devoting part
| of my attention to listening (in my case - whenever I am cycling
| / running training, commutes, highway driving etc.), I now have
| the option of reading at the same time.
| pnathan wrote:
| Oral texts aren't written texts. Different rhythm. Different
| style.
|
| Note, the Torah is at least as old as the described texts, and
| has separations between words.
|
| Audiobooks don't count as book in any modern sense. But the sense
| of a text, yes, they are that.
| fritzo wrote:
| Conversely, does it even count if you merely _read_ Shakespeare,
| rather than experiencing a performance, as intended?
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