[HN Gopher] Via ferratas are finally catching on in the United S...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Via ferratas are finally catching on in the United States
        
       Author : geox
       Score  : 82 points
       Date   : 2024-02-29 06:48 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
        
       | snowwrestler wrote:
       | > With both the National Park Service and Forest Service
       | currently challenging the ban on fixed climbing anchors on public
       | lands, they may become more common in the near future.
       | 
       | This is completely backward; there is currently _not_ a ban on
       | fixed climbing anchors in wilderness areas, and the NPS and
       | Forest Service are attempting to create bans through a backdoor
       | by updating their climbing management guidelines.
       | 
       | There is no way via ferratas are ever going to go into wilderness
       | areas. People can argue whether the occasional fixed rappel
       | anchor is an impermissible "installation" under the Wilderness
       | Act. But everyone agrees that via ferratas are.
        
         | hunter-gatherer wrote:
         | I personally would rather not see these in the wilderness. One
         | of the things that make the little remaining wilderness we have
         | in the US "wild" is the friction to entry. I have some seasoned
         | experience with mountaineering and wilderness stays and what
         | makes it remarkable is the smaller footprint from humans. The
         | more accessible it is the less wild it becomes.
        
           | AlotOfReading wrote:
           | People used to complain about Yosemite having a road built to
           | it, because it'd detract from the natural beauty of the
           | valley and bring in too many "lazy" tourists. To some extent
           | those critics were right, but it's pretty undeniable in
           | hindsight that the cause of the parks system has been better
           | served by having parks like these accessible to the public
           | than it would have been by keeping them pristine and largely
           | unvisited. We still have parks like that too. Gates of the
           | Arctic and Isla royale come to mind as inaccessible, and both
           | are tragically undervisited / unknown as a result. It's not
           | like you can't escape the crowded masses in busy parks
           | either. A half hour hike towards the backcountry will free
           | you from the bustle of crowds at almost all of them.
        
             | snowwrestler wrote:
             | Yosemite already has a via ferrata: the cable route on Half
             | Dome.
        
               | stagger87 wrote:
               | Yes, and it's a huge attraction. For better or for worse?
        
               | snowwrestler wrote:
               | I think it's for worse, but NPS obviously disagrees. They
               | seem to have essentially designated most of the Valley a
               | sort of tourist sacrifice zone, what with all the hotels,
               | roads, stores, paved hiking trails, etc.
               | 
               | There was a similar cables route up Longs Peak in Rocky
               | Mountain National Park for decades, but NPS took it out,
               | leaving the Keyhole Route as the easiest (but not easy)
               | remaining way to the summit.
        
               | zmj wrote:
               | Wasn't that due to lightning strikes on the cables?
        
             | sandworm101 wrote:
             | The balance is that if the park doesn't let enough people
             | in, the people stop supporting the park. America is
             | democratic. Parks are not protected by royal proclamation.
             | If the park is inaccessible then people don't visit. Then
             | they don't care about it. Then one day someone wants to
             | drill for oil in the park, and nobody cares enough to vote
             | that down.
             | 
             | I really don't mind the car-camping crowd. They stay inside
             | their gravel circles and don't impact the real wilderness
             | much. But come time to vote they will always far outnumber
             | the dedicated rock climbers. I want the car campers on my
             | side. If that means giving them their parking spots then so
             | be it.
        
               | wahnfrieden wrote:
               | Re: your democracy comment, note that Trump and Biden
               | have both converted public land reserves and in cases
               | near/impacting national parks into private oil drilling
               | sites. Not to the point of drilling inside national parks
               | yet, but expanding and encroaching. Given the bipartisan
               | efforts to convert public land and the reversals on
               | campaign promises without perceptible consequence, I'm
               | skeptical of relying on the "voting and waiting" strategy
               | to protect our undeveloped lands. You are overstating how
               | democratic this process is.
        
               | sandworm101 wrote:
               | >> relying on the "voting and waiting" strategy
               | 
               | I don't know where you get that. Parks are old. Older
               | than petty debates between recent presidents. They rely
               | on support from the population over decades, even
               | centuries. This isn't about the ebb and flow of current
               | voting patterns. This is about keeping people on the pro-
               | park side intergenerationally. It is about making sure
               | that people know what a park means, even if they only
               | visited it as a kid decades previous. Current political
               | personalities are irrelevant to that longer perspective.
        
               | 1970-01-01 wrote:
               | >Parks are not protected by royal proclamation.
               | 
               | That's _exactly_ how they 're protected: https://en.wikip
               | edia.org/wiki/List_of_lands_protected_by_The...
        
               | weaksauce wrote:
               | that is something that can be reversed if the public
               | doesn't want it enough.
        
               | 1970-01-01 wrote:
               | ok, but you can make that point for any law.
        
           | unit_circle wrote:
           | The one counterpoint I'd like to make here is tat. Imo it's
           | better to leave minimal high quality, long lived gear than
           | soft goods that deteriorate over time that can make for a
           | dangerous descent and produce a fair bit of garbage.
        
             | themaninthedark wrote:
             | The stuff I saw pictured looks like rebar bent into rungs,
             | so now you have steel left out that will deteriorate,
             | possibly in an undetectable manner(remember, your anchor
             | point is in the rock face).
             | 
             | Also you are drilling into the rock. So much for leave no
             | trace.
        
           | willcipriano wrote:
           | > little remaining wilderness
           | 
           | The US is mostly wilderness. Drive across it sometime staying
           | off the highways.
        
             | schaefer wrote:
             | Within the context of land management and the BLM,
             | "wilderness" is a technical designation.
             | 
             | Here is a map[1] for land designated wilderness.
             | 
             | [1]: https://gbp-blm-egis.hub.arcgis.com/datasets/BLM-
             | EGIS::blm-n...
        
           | legohead wrote:
           | As a rock climber, I hope it grows. Tired of seeing these
           | debates and fights with authorities on putting up anchors,
           | which are far less visible than these via ferratas. If these
           | catch on and people like them, I think it will be good for
           | climbers.
        
           | mateo1 wrote:
           | I wholeheartedly agree. I used to visit my grandpa's village
           | every year (somewhere in europe) surrounded by beautiful
           | mountains. The nature was accessible by everyone - warranted
           | they'd do a 2 hour drive on rough road, get a hiking map and
           | hike to the top. You'd also have to pack lunch and coffee.
           | Now a new road is build, several hotels including a luxury
           | resort with pools, coffee shops, tourist traps selling
           | "traditional" "local" products etc. It's just terrible.
           | Before, you'd "buy" your way there with effort, now you just
           | pay, and you take your laziness with you all the way to the
           | mountain top where you buy your $10 coffee and instagram
           | snaps. If you want to sidestep the "nature" part of nature
           | just go to a city park.
        
       | namdnay wrote:
       | Good news, but if this is anything like other mountain activities
       | in the USA, I bet it costs an arm and a leg
       | 
       | And... yep, I just opened a random one (Estes Park?) - prices
       | starting at 199USD a head! About 4x the price of a french one
       | (30-50e per adult depending on how big it is and how expensive
       | the location is)
       | 
       | I imagine it's a combination of novelty + everything being
       | managed privately (whereas in most of europe there are a lot of
       | subsidies to keep mountain areas thriving)
        
         | lm28469 wrote:
         | The ones I've done in Europe were free, you could even access
         | them and climb without any gear if you want
        
           | namdnay wrote:
           | indeed a lot of them are "free" but they clearly state the
           | correct equipment must be worn (which is of course available
           | for rent at various approved outlets) , or else any accident
           | will get you into a world of financial trouble
        
             | sebtron wrote:
             | What do you mean by "financial trouble"? You certainly risk
             | getting hurt or killed without the right equipment, but I
             | don't see how this is related to "financial trouble".
        
               | DebtDeflation wrote:
               | I assume they mean that you will be billed for any rescue
               | costs incurred.
        
               | hgomersall wrote:
               | I always assume that's the case when I'm in the Alps.
               | That's why it's important to have proper insurance.
        
               | dfadsadsf wrote:
               | Most US medical insurances (definitely the one I have
               | from work) will cover rescue (including helicopter) if it
               | was medically necessary. There is nothing specific about
               | via ferrata in Europe that changes financial situation
               | compared to for example hiking and breaking the leg or
               | something like that.
        
               | sebtron wrote:
               | Yeah, that's true. But I always assumed you need to be
               | really inconsiderate with your equipment to get fined. At
               | least this is what the local stories about tourists
               | getting fined told :)
               | 
               | Never heard about this being a tourist trap.
        
               | namdnay wrote:
               | the big risk is third party risk - if you fall on someone
               | else, or bring down a power line, or drop a rock on
               | someone below you. not having paid for the session means
               | you won't have paid the 2-3 euros for the third-party
               | insurance
        
               | seattle_spring wrote:
               | We must be talking about completely different things,
               | because in no way shape or form is a "power line"
               | associated with any via ferrata I've done in Italy or
               | Austria.
               | 
               | Further, equipment depends on difficulty. Some via
               | ferratas are really just some metal cables to help keep
               | your balance over small crossings, while others are
               | traversing sheer cliffs and peaks with obviously fatal
               | safety implications. It would be silly to require safety
               | equipment for the former, while it'd be silly _not to_
               | for the latter.
        
             | lm28469 wrote:
             | Oh yes for sure, I just meant there is no one to physically
             | stop you at any point (neither for money nor gear check).
             | The equipment rental was very often in the closest city, a
             | ~10 min drive away
             | 
             | I assume the US experience would be quite different
        
               | hammock wrote:
               | Yeah, we did caminito del rey near Malaga Spain back when
               | it was closed to the public, people were still doing it
               | but I think officially you weren't supposed to, this was
               | years before they recently fixed it up and officially
               | reopened it to the public
        
         | sebtron wrote:
         | Interestingly, this is the first time I hear about any paid
         | mountain track / climbing path.
        
           | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
           | As I understand it, you can access them for free with your
           | own equipment, or rent the gear, or go with a guide. Most
           | tourists are going to go with a guide at least the first time
           | and probably rent gear afterwards. They might ask for
           | donations for the maintenance, although generally I think
           | that's paid from the equipment rental/tour income,
           | subsidizing it for people going on their own.
           | 
           | $200 sounds about what you'd pay for a guided tour (gear
           | included) in Switzerland.
        
             | patall wrote:
             | Honestly, what real benefit does a guide bring to most
             | reasonable people? I know, the stereotypical American will
             | travel to Iceland with norhing but shorts, but those aside,
             | most everything to learn/understand here can be explained
             | in an 2-5 minute introduction of the equipment. I mean,
             | both me and my brother managed without problems (under
             | paternal guidance) starting around age 6 two decades ago.
             | Nowadays, most seem to be super crowded in the high season
             | (meaning well, you have to wait often on a route), but its
             | always been a fun activity.
        
               | luplex wrote:
               | It's still unfamiliar terrain, and a guide will help you
               | find the start of the route, will help you get through a
               | difficult spot and can perform first aid if needed. So if
               | you're not an experienced hiker and climber, going with a
               | guide will make everything go smoother the first time.
        
         | eastbound wrote:
         | 30-50EUR in France?? Try 5.50EUR !! Or 25EUR with gear rental.
         | And this is for La Colmiane, one of the most beautiful, or
         | Lantosque, where you are 10m above an epic bowel of water.
         | 
         | https://www.colmiane.com/activites-ete-sur-la-colmiane/via-f...
         | 
         | https://www.puremontagne.fr/fr/a-faire/nature/item/via-ferra...
        
       | Am4TIfIsER0ppos wrote:
       | I expected that to be a euphemism for a railroad but it means
       | ladders and cables for climbing.
        
         | dkdbejwi383 wrote:
         | The literal translation from Italian is something like "iron
         | way". Compare with the Italian word for a railway, which is
         | "ferroviario"
        
           | hk__2 wrote:
           | > Compare with the Italian word for a railway, which is
           | "ferroviario"
           | 
           | No, it's "ferrovia" and it's in the wrong order because it's
           | based on English: rail+way -> ferro+via.
        
             | dkdbejwi383 wrote:
             | https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trasporto_ferroviario
        
               | myrmidon wrote:
               | No; ferroviario is an adjective, like "rail" in "rail
               | transport".
               | 
               | But it is ONLY an adjective, you can not use it as a noun
               | (you would use "ferrovia" for railroad track, instead).
        
         | gpderetta wrote:
         | "strada ferrata" (iron road) is literally railroad in Italian,
         | while "via ferrata" (iron way) are the ladders and cables for
         | climbing.
        
           | Georgelemental wrote:
           | In French, railroad is "voie ferree" ("iron way") or "chemin
           | de fer" ("path of iron").
        
       | paulkrush wrote:
       | Great video on a free one in Colorado:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bReTV2J7PIk
       | 
       | "Telluride Via Ferrata in Colorado has been on our bucket list
       | for quite some time. So when our cousin Anh asked if we want to
       | make a trip there, of course, we said yes. Telluride Via Ferrata
       | has to be one of the most exciting and unforgettable adventures.
       | It combines mountain hiking with the traditional Via Ferrata
       | cable system and breathtaking scenery. There is nothing more
       | thrilling than traversing across a sheer cliff, 600ft above
       | ground, with only safety tethers, a steel cable, and metal rungs
       | to support you. Besides the spectacular views, this amazing
       | adventure also challenges your physical and mental fortitude
       | while giving you an incomparable sense of accomplishment."
        
       | hnrodey wrote:
       | I hiked Via Ferrata in Telluride, CO and it's an amazing
       | experience. Search on YouTube for videos. In the past few years
       | there's been another via ferrata opened in Ouray, CO (neighbors
       | Telluride) that looks even more intense - sadly I haven't made it
       | to this one quite yet.
       | 
       | We went with a paid guide in a small group and I thought it was
       | money well spent. However, in Telluride it's public access so
       | anyone can hike it completely free if they want. Make sure you
       | know what you're doing though - follow the rules and I think it's
       | quite safe.
        
         | darkwizard42 wrote:
         | The Ouray one now has two tracks. Both were excellent! We did
         | the more advanced one this time around with just my climbing-
         | experienced brother leading us.
        
       | darkwizard42 wrote:
       | So we did the Via Ferrata in Ouray and it was AMAZING! They did
       | offer guided runs but we just rented gear for pretty cheap and
       | went on the course. I'm not understanding the costs here as we
       | paid no money for course access.
       | 
       | For those interested it would be beneficial to have some
       | understanding of rock climbing mechanics - how to strategically
       | prop yourself and rest, how to transfer weight, how to grip
       | efficiently. You can definitely "muscle" your way through the
       | courses but it will get tiring and then dangerous.
       | 
       | Highly recommend for those who have some beginner rock climbing
       | experience and want to give it a shot!
        
       | jakub_g wrote:
       | If you're ever in south-east France, there's a bunch of nice via
       | ferratas of varying difficulty. A nice one to start is in
       | Lantosque, it's very easy and low and beautiful with river a few
       | feet below (except a vertical climb at the end followed by a zip
       | line / bridge very high above, but you can quit before that point
       | if you're scared).
        
         | Georgelemental wrote:
         | One thing that's confusing is that in French, "voie ferree" and
         | "chemin de fer" ("iron way"/"path of iron") mean "railroad".
        
           | jlongman wrote:
           | It's still called a via ferrata in France so this isn't
           | confusing at all. Source: did some near Annecy as well as
           | Grenoble 20 years ago.
           | 
           | And Quebec fwiw but I only know of the one at Tremblant
           | (which is paid).
        
             | morkalork wrote:
             | There's a few in Quebec:
             | 
             | https://viaferrataquebec.com
             | 
             | https://www.sepaq.com/quoi-faire/via-
             | ferrata.dot?language_id...
        
         | namdnay wrote:
         | Lantosque very nice, and less than an hour's drive from Nice
         | airport
        
         | seattle_spring wrote:
         | Lots in northern Italy and Austria too!
        
           | 082349872349872 wrote:
           | that's where they started...
        
       | exabrial wrote:
       | After visiting Austria and Germany, I'm "hooked" on Via Ferattas.
       | It's astounding the number and variety of them available... I'm
       | going to make a vacation next year where that's all I do
       | 
       | However, Colorado needs to do some soul searching. Currently
       | Colorado has exactly TWO free-access Via Ferattas: Ouray and
       | Telluride. Allowing commercial companies to build exclusive
       | access theme parks on public lands is a gross misuse of public
       | lands.
       | 
       | Private land owners can charge if they want for all I care, but
       | the most obnoxious thing about this model is even an experienced
       | climber often must "hire a 'certified' guide" at absurd rates.
        
         | someguydave wrote:
         | "Allowing commercial companies to build exclusive access theme
         | parks on public lands is a gross misuse of public lands."
         | 
         | This describes nearly all ski areas in the US, good luck
         | getting them to change how things are done on either the public
         | or private side.
        
           | czinck wrote:
           | Because of that, all ski resorts on US public land aren't
           | actually "exclusive". A lift ticket just buys you access to
           | the lifts, you can hike up during the winter or summer, with
           | restrictions during the winter mainly around everyone's
           | safety (designated uphill routes, don't go where they're
           | doing avalanche control).
        
             | exabrial wrote:
             | This is 100% correct. You can actually walk to the top of a
             | mountain and ski down. Or in the summer time, you can bike
             | up and mountain bike down...
        
             | someguydave wrote:
             | Sure, so if there is a via feratta on public land I imagine
             | there will be similar access, although controlling access
             | to a via feratta would be much easier than a ski run.
        
       | jupp0r wrote:
       | Mountaineer with a bunch of via Ferrata experience here, mainly
       | in Europe. What's often forgot in discussions about these is that
       | in spite of you being anchored to steel ropes, the consequences
       | of a fall on these are pretty severe when compared to falling
       | into a normal dynamic climbing rope (which is pretty normal and
       | done all the time without problems in sports climbing). The
       | physics of shock absorption by via ferrata equipment is not your
       | friend here, a fall with a vertical slide to the next anchor 6ft
       | below you is a ticket to the hospital, likely with permanent
       | damage.
       | 
       | Via ferratas can be fun, but you really don't want to fall, and
       | if in doubt, do your research and get really good equipment.
        
         | dghlsakjg wrote:
         | Is this still true if you use the appropriate shock links?
         | 
         | Those are set up to limit the force up to a certain height,
         | wouldn't they design those to limit the force to one less
         | likely to cause permanent damage?
        
           | lazide wrote:
           | It all depends on how you fall, what you hit and when, and
           | what position your body is in at various stages of this.
           | 
           | If you spend any time on a via ferrata, it's pretty easy to
           | see where the answers to one or more of these will be 'not
           | great', and sometimes 'really bad'.
           | 
           | For instance, hitting a rung on the way down. Or getting an
           | appendage caught behind something.
           | 
           | But unlikely you'll die.
           | 
           | And honestly, you shouldn't fall unless you screwed something
           | up pretty bad to begin with, which is your primary protection
           | anyway.
           | 
           | You're literally climbing a ladder, this isn't wilderness
           | trad climbing or developing some new route on loose rock.
        
             | krallistic wrote:
             | Death at Via Ferratas are extremely rare (with proper gear
             | ofc).
             | 
             | But the falls are notoriously hard. Force can get really
             | high and the chance of injury is high, even in cases where
             | the fall zone is free of any metal etc..
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | >> use the appropriate shock links.
           | 
           | Don't use these. They are generally one-use affairs. They
           | have a place in climbing but only as part of a larger system.
           | The issue is multiple falls. Say you slip and cause an
           | impact. The link does its thing and extends. Now you are on
           | the side of a cliff without proper equipment. A proper
           | dynamic climbing rope, used properly, will safely take
           | repeated falls.
        
             | luplex wrote:
             | They are absolutely the right equipment for the job. If you
             | take a bad fall on your shock link, you likely need medical
             | attention anyways. You won't keep climbing far with it.
        
           | ryeights wrote:
           | The answer IMO is using two prusik friction hitches. Easy to
           | slide along the cable by hand when slack, but holds you in
           | place via friction when taut (i.e when you slip).
           | 
           | Of course these would be a pain to tie and untie at each
           | anchor point
        
         | Leherenn wrote:
         | It's also very hard/impossible to climb back up depending on
         | where you fall. It often requires an helicopter to get you out.
        
         | yread wrote:
         | the dangerous part in falling when mountain climbing is almost
         | always hitting the rock (and not the bottom) too. At least for
         | via ferrata you're supposed to wear a helmet which few climbers
         | do
        
       | sandworm101 wrote:
       | >> A via ferrata is essentially rock climbing. It provides all of
       | the same sensations," says Michele Van Hise, managing partner at
       | Zion Adventures, a guiding service and outfitter based in
       | Springdale, Utah. Between 2018 and 2022, the company built three
       | via ferratas near Zion National Park, including Shorty Town,
       | which snakes up and down across a cliff suspended over the
       | flowing water of Oak Creek.
       | 
       | I cannot express how strongly I am against this. The first rule
       | of most every outdoor activity is "take only pictures, leave only
       | footprints". That applies for everything from scuba diving to
       | mountaineering. Hammering in rods and installing ladders on
       | otherwise perfectly climbable rocks is just wrong. There is a
       | time and place for fixed protection, and regular climbers have
       | huge debates about this, but installing ladders so people can
       | more easily "climb" in hiking boots doesn't meet anyone's
       | standard. I've known many climbers who, if seeing any of this,
       | would actively destroy such installations if anywhere close to
       | existing routes. And in Zion? I guess it isn't halfdome or dawn
       | wall but this is still a climbing mecca that that should be left
       | unaltered.
       | 
       | I was once at a very popular toproping area when an army unit of
       | about eight people showed up. They were about to hammer pitons
       | into the cracks to "practice". The word when quickly around the
       | crag and they were basically run out of town by a hundred
       | climbers. You don't damage rock casually, not established
       | climbing routes.
        
         | blakeburnette wrote:
         | Pitons are something I think are already controversial enough.
         | Necessary in some rock types to enable climbing...but that's a
         | debate for another day. I would say I lean to, only if
         | necessary. Via Ferratas make me cringe and am wholeheartedly
         | opposed.
        
         | digital-cygnet wrote:
         | I've come to believe that there's a place for the more
         | accessible enjoyment of the outdoors that the via ferrata seems
         | to represent. Every park represents a different place on the
         | spectrum of accessibility vs true wilderness -- from
         | Manhattan's Central Park (millions of visitors of all types,
         | requiring hard paths, railings etc) to Denali National Park
         | (other than the road, limited to very small dispersed groups,
         | kept few enough that it can remain a "trackless wilderness").
         | 
         | I don't begrudge someone who is not a very skilled climber
         | their use of a via ferrata, provided that impact to the area
         | (e.g. sightlines) is kept to a minimum and other options for
         | more purists remain. I'm not a climber per se but this is the
         | same attitude I have towards hiking, skiing, mountain biking,
         | etc. I'm careful not to gate-keep casual folks using the Mt
         | Washington cog railway because they get a lot of enjoyment out
         | of it and it's a small blip in my Prezzie Traverse -- if
         | carefully managed, there's enough nature for everyone.
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | >> there's enough nature for everyone.
           | 
           | Climbing is different. It is about very rarified and somewhat
           | delicate places. Climbing is also always about balancing
           | safety with ability. Anyone can hammer in ladders and assent
           | a cliff. That isn't climbing. Make a route too "accessible"
           | to the masses, make it easy, and the masses will loose
           | respect. They will destroy it. Have a look at Everest base
           | camp. It is effectively a landfill of garbage and human
           | waste.
        
             | jltsiren wrote:
             | Accessibility is not the issue. Prestige is. A lot of
             | people have heard of Everest, and many think it would be
             | cool to climb it. Other equally accessible mountains in the
             | region see much less human activity.
             | 
             | Also, the waste issues in the area are mostly due to
             | serious climbers who go to less accessible places. Casual
             | tourists stick to settlements, some of which have existed
             | for centuries. Because the settlements are relatively
             | wealthy and connected by decent paths, there seems to be
             | less waste than in the average rural area in a third-world
             | country.
        
           | themaninthedark wrote:
           | I'm not against making something more accessible but I
           | against destroying nature in order to do so.
           | 
           | If in order to provide access to a waterfall; you have to cut
           | a road through a mountain and then clear out the trees at the
           | base so you can construct a ramp for wheelchairs, you have
           | disfigured the very thing that you wanted to preserve by
           | having a park.
           | 
           | What is the difference, if any, between hammering these iron
           | rungs and jack hammering steps into the rock face?
           | 
           | Why would we say that "via ferrata" is an acceptable amount
           | of defacement while jack hammering is not?
        
         | Ajedi32 wrote:
         | How is this any different from, say, a gravel hiking trail? I
         | see plenty of those in state parks all over the place. Makes
         | things far more accessible with a very minimal impact on the
         | overall environment.
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | A gravel trail isn't there to make the user's life easier. It
           | is there to prevent damage to the park. The gravel prevents
           | people cutting a deep trench through the mud, which
           | inevitably become a series of parallel mud trenches across
           | the terrain. A gravel trail or even a pavement allows for
           | more people to transit an area without doing damage. A ladder
           | on the side of a cliff is just about making life easier and
           | does nothing to protect the cliff.
        
         | listenallyall wrote:
         | > would actively destroy such installations if anywhere close
         | to existing routes. And in Zion?
         | 
         | Your claim is contradicted by the fact that the most popular
         | hike at Zion, Angels Landing, has an established set of fixed
         | heavy chains to guide people up and down. Not to mention
         | Walter's Wiggles, without which most people wouldnt be able to
         | reach Scout's Lookout, the base of Angels Landing.
         | 
         | Also, these via ferratas you're objecting to are located
         | outside Zion NP.
        
         | anthomtb wrote:
         | I can see the opposition here if a via ferrata is built such
         | that an existing climbing route is altered or reduced in
         | difficulty.
         | 
         | > would actively destroy such installations if anywhere close
         | to existing routes
         | 
         | "anywhere close" implies visible but not interfering. Would it
         | really ruin the climbing experience if the 5.12b route you are
         | attempting happens to have an accessible option within view?
         | 
         | I am neither a climber nor someone who would use a via ferrata,
         | but I do see parallels to my mountain biking hobby here, where
         | skilled riders (and more often "expert beginner" types) are
         | threatened when newbie-friendly trails are created.
        
       | mrg2k8 wrote:
       | I started practicing last summer and went on a few via ferratas
       | in Switzerland and Italy. The hardest one was in the Dolomites
       | and required climbing knowledge and upper body strength because
       | there were no easy anchors.
       | 
       | The scariest one was in Switzerland, called Murren where there's
       | a 30m horizontal section with a 400m vertical drop with nothing
       | to hold on to other than the steel cable and some metal inserts
       | in the wall, see https://www.sac-
       | cas.ch/processed/sa2020assetsprod/9/0/csm_15... .
        
         | snowwrestler wrote:
         | Looks scary but horizontal sections of via ferratas are usually
         | the safest part, because you'll come tight to your leashes
         | right away if you slip.
         | 
         | It's the vertical sections, where you could free fall and pick
         | up speed before your leash catches on the next anchor point,
         | which can cause the worst injuries.
        
       | twobitshifter wrote:
       | If you think nature must be left unspoiled then do not go.
       | 
       | If you think only those like you with your specialized equipment
       | and your physical fitness should be able to go, you do still
       | 'spoil nature.'
       | 
       | There's no need to point fingers at others for going an inch
       | beyond your intrusion by leaving equipment in place. Popular
       | routes are visited so often than the average condition for the
       | area is climbers with equipment. Any peaceful absence of human
       | presence is entirely imagined.
        
       | unit_circle wrote:
       | Western American wilderness is different than Europe--it has very
       | few human improvements.
       | 
       | Personally I'd love to see it retain that character and I think
       | this is the wrong direction.
       | 
       | Imo if you want a European experience you should go to Europe.
        
       | roca wrote:
       | Surely it's "vias ferrata".
        
         | jfengel wrote:
         | "Vias ferratas", if you're getting technical.
        
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