[HN Gopher] Why Jalapeno Peppers Are Less Spicy Than Ever (2023)
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Why Jalapeno Peppers Are Less Spicy Than Ever (2023)
Author : thefilmore
Score : 81 points
Date : 2024-02-26 21:50 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.dmagazine.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.dmagazine.com)
| simonsarris wrote:
| It's interesting how bad incentives are when something with
| qualitative differences (flavor, heat) is sold by the pound.
| Making it more palatable expands the market up to a point, but so
| does requiring more peppers generally.
|
| The most durable countermeasure seems to be totally outside of
| the purview of economics: building up a culture of caring about
| the product. Like tomatoes in Italy, or coffee beans among coffee
| lovers.
|
| For heat we've mostly had to rely on serrano or (when in season
| here) the Hungarian wax pepper (varies wildly between 1k and 15k
| scoville)
| hibikir wrote:
| There are agricultural products where price per bushel has to
| do with some grading, which is tested along in the supply
| chain. If I can easily, quickly, cheaply test for any trait,
| its value can be priced in. See how much apples have improved,
| given that we could tell varieties on sight, and people learn
| the properties that come with each variety.
|
| If you could tell whether a pepper's value in the scoville
| scale before buying, or the supermarket could accurately label
| things cheaply. the price differential, and therefore the
| quality, will follow.
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Are the incentives "bad", really? It seems like they are
| getting less spicy because that is what most people want. There
| seems to be an assumption that because Big Jalapeno are
| changing the flavour it must be for the worse. Personally I
| prefer spicier peppers but I am definitely an outlier amongst
| my friends at least.
|
| I don't know that we need countermeasures, as such. I think
| it's fine to have a very common, affordable product that is
| predictable and palatable to the masses alongside other more
| niche variants which are popular with "enthusiasts" (and
| therefore might be less widely available and more expensive).
|
| That's kind of how it is with coffee. Most people get theirs
| from Starbucks or some other big chain. I hate that stuff but
| they clearly like it, and I don't begrudge them it. As long as
| I am able to get my fruity single-origin light roasts.
|
| I guess maybe you don't have those niches in jalapenos (I don't
| know where I would go to get a spicier jalapeno) but as you
| mention, there are other peppers we can look to if spice is
| what we want.
| thrwwycbr wrote:
| The article doesn't contain the actual reason.
|
| I'd argue that the real reason is that peppers are now mass
| produced in clean, bug-free, environments.
|
| Which means: No bug bites, no spice.
|
| If you grow peppers indoors where no bugs are, they tend to be a
| very mild produce. If you put them outside (and have enough
| insects around), they get much more spicy.
|
| Of course the usage of pesticides contributes to that effect, due
| to bugs not having a chance to bite the fruits anymore.
| voidwtf wrote:
| The summarized version was that they've selected for milder
| more consistently flavored jalapenos for mass manufacturing
| purposes where the companies using the peppers in their
| products prefer to control the level of spice with capsaicin
| extract.
| episteme wrote:
| Why do bug bites increase spice?
| thrwwycbr wrote:
| They release enzymes necessary for the spice/acid production.
| The acid counteracts those enzymes.
|
| If you cut open peppers, you can see the black veins which
| were bit by bugs, those are the ones containing the acid.
|
| A better way to protect them against virusses but not against
| bugs that won't harm them is by combining the top of peppers
| with the root of potatoes, and by using moss to heal the cuts
| where you combined them (e.g. with a toothpick)
|
| Of course that won't work on an industrial scale, hence them
| favoring pesticides.
| progmetaldev wrote:
| I've read that slightly dehydrating your plants as they
| fruit is developing helps increase the capsaicin. You can
| also blend up the peppers and spray them down, which seems
| to agitate the peppers, and possibly send a chemical signal
| for the plant to start produce more capsaicin (although
| that's all been anecdotal evidence to my knowledge).
| akavi wrote:
| "The acid"? Capsaicin (the compound responsible for a
| pepper's "heat") is not an acid.
|
| Also, I've never noticed "black veins" in any peppers I've
| prepared, including very spicy ones.
| thrwwycbr wrote:
| Well, technically, capsaicin is the end of the reaction.
|
| Sounds stupid, but some might argue that all carbon acid
| amids are - as the name says - products of carbon acid
| reactions with ammonia.
|
| At least in a natural, non synthesized, environment.
| quickslowdown wrote:
| The spice is an evolved defense mechanism, so if it's not
| needed, the peppers eventually stop producing it. Couple that
| with us intentionally selecting for things other than spice,
| and within a few generations you have a less spicy pepper.
|
| Note I'm not any kind of qualified to talk on this topic. I'm
| sure someone can give a better & more accurate answer!
| yellowapple wrote:
| It's indeed a defense mechanism, but (from what I
| understand) it has less to do with bugs and more to do with
| mammals; pepper plants started surrounding the seeds with
| capsaicin to ward off mammals (which chew up and destroy
| the seeds) while still being palatable to birds (which
| ingest the seeds whole and "drop them off" elsewhere).
|
| Then a certain species of primate decided "Grug inflict
| pain on self, makes Grug happy" and the rest is history.
| tiffanyh wrote:
| I always presumed the heat was from the seeds and not the pepper
| its self.
| WaxProlix wrote:
| It's mostly neither, but rather it tends to be concentrated in
| the 'ribs', that whitish tissue inside the pepper. Seeds tend
| to have some of that connective tissue on and around them, or
| to come in contact with it more, and so have a reputation for
| heat.
| voidwtf wrote:
| Wow, I was just telling my partner last week that the Jalapenos
| I'd bought were not spicy and it seemed like it was happening
| more and more often. I love Jalapenos with cheese and crackers
| and it sucks to cut up a whole jalapeno only to find I might as
| well just used a green pepper.
| firstplacelast wrote:
| I make salsa once a month and have noticed this the last couple
| years. Occasionally get a spicy batch, but more often am adding
| habaneros to bring up the heat.
|
| I made a verde for the Super Bowl a couple weeks ago and tried
| to keep it mild since I didn't know everyone's preferences.
| Even after 3 jalapenos in a small batch of salsa, it had almost
| zero spice (commented on by party goers - still tasty though).
|
| Last week on the show Chrissy and Dave Dine Out, the chef of an
| Ethiopian restaurant in LA commented how she quit using
| jalapenos because they're not spicy anymore and opts for
| serranos in her dishes instead.
|
| Anyway, I kept thinking I was getting weak batches/unlukcy in
| my jalapeno selection, but I guess I need to start going for
| serranos.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| The article kind of mentions this but I think most professionals
| have shifted to serranos except when they want the big slices for
| a garnish or something. The shift was well underway when I was
| still cooking in the late 2000s, though I mostly heard
| consistency as the reason rather than heat.
| chasd00 wrote:
| yeah it's always a crap shoot with jalapenos, sometimes they're
| mild, hot, or like really freaking hot. I love serranos though,
| dice up a few and throw into a standard chicken and rice
| casserole recipe. that's really good stuff.
| sudden_dystopia wrote:
| I don't like more than a little spicy but I discovered that if
| you stand the jalapeno up and cut vertical panels leaving the
| core and seeds behind, they are essentially just sweet peppers
| with a little kick. It seems that almost all of the heat is in
| the seeds and the plith.
| ericra wrote:
| As mentioned in another comment, you are correct that by far
| the highest concentration is in the pith/placenta (~90%
| typically). The seeds have a relatively low capsaicin
| concentration, but their surface gets spicy from being in
| direct contact with the pith.
|
| But practically speaking, you're right. You can just cut away
| the outsides and get most of the flavor without much spice at
| all.
| amenghra wrote:
| My experience is most peppers pack the most heat in their
| seeds. Some peppers have a hot oil that can get on your fingers
| and start tingling minutes/couple hours later.
| progmetaldev wrote:
| I thought the same, but it's supposed to be from the pith. I
| just think that since the seeds grow off the pith, you get
| some of that pith with the seeds. I've also felt the horror
| and pain of using the restroom hours after dealing with
| peppers, not realizing the mistake that I had made. Never
| again though, that was a teaching moment for life!
| tptacek wrote:
| The reason I took away from this: large agricultural producers of
| peppers bred towards a "low heat, low variance" standard, away
| from a "high variance" standard that produced frequent hot
| jalapenos. Low-heat-low-variance is better for mass food
| production, because producers can just dose the capsaicin
| directly, which is something they can't do easily when every
| pepper is a wildcard.
|
| There are second-order effects, like drip irrigation and
| cultivation techniques that optimize for shape, size, and color
| over heat --- but those are enabled by the industrial jalapeno's
| new position in the production chain. The peppers just aren't the
| point where the heat is introduced anymore; that happens later.
| Might as well optimize for good looking peppers.
|
| This seems fine? Peppers are one of the easier and more forgiving
| things to grow yourself. Just grow your own or buy from a
| farmer's market.
|
| _Moments later, after reading the thread_
|
| This kind of stuff really seems to piss people off, but when you
| think about the disempowerment of the jalapeno, try to keep in
| mind that the same industrial processes have performed unalloyed
| positive things. Have you noticed that you're way more into
| brussels sprouts now than you were when you were a kid? If you're
| a GenX-er or a Millenial, that's because today's (delicious)
| sprouts aren't the same plant as the (gross) sprouts of yore.
| Same deal with broccolini, which hadn't even been invented until
| after your birthday (for most of you).
| ramraj07 wrote:
| This has got to be the funniest responses to the problem at
| hand: peppers not spicy enough? grow your own..
| tptacek wrote:
| Have you never grown peppers? It really is absurdly easy. The
| point though really isn't that everyone's just going to grow
| their own peppers; rather, it's that it's very easy to
| introduce an alternate supply of highly-variable jalapenos,
| because there aren't many barriers to producing them. There
| are urban garden companies in Chicago that produce lettuce
| right now and could probably produce jalapenos if anybody
| really cared enough.
| resolutebat wrote:
| I don't think anybody wants highly-variable jalapenos
| though? Industrial processors want reliably mild,
| chileheads want reliably spicy.
| tptacek wrote:
| Reliably spicy jalapenos have never been a thing, but you
| can optimize growing conditions for heat and produce a
| spicy cultivar if you want to go into business serving
| chileheads who want, like, hot, but not that hot?
|
| (I get it, jalapenos have a particularly useful form
| factor; you can't really do a serrano relleno).
| quantified wrote:
| Replying to a peer respondent:
|
| Chile lovers definitely want reliably spicy. Quite a few
| in my family and friends.
| eichin wrote:
| Yeah, I've seen boston-area college students successfully
| grow szechuan peppers on a south facing (outdoor but
| sheltered) balcony - with exactly as much neglect as you'd
| expect from undergrads in a shared apartment. "Absurdly
| easy" is not an exaggeration.
| progmetaldev wrote:
| As someone that loves hot sauce, including fermenting my own,
| it's unfortunate that it does actually require growing your
| own if you want a lot of heat along with flavor. Using
| capsaicin extracts will give you heat, but often little
| flavor (or no flavor if you go hot enough).
| tptacek wrote:
| If you're just making a fermented hot sauce, why not just
| use serranos? The serrano is basically the consistently hot
| jalapeno you're looking from; it's just less plump and so
| less useful as a popper or whatever. And, of course, if you
| really wanted heat, you'd be using scotch bonnets anyways.
| aegypti wrote:
| Each of these chiles have very different flavors friend.
| Serranos and jalapenos are much closer than habaneros but
| still cleanly separated by bitterness, brightness and
| acridity.
|
| Eg a grandmother's salsa ranchera with jalapeno only is a
| much sweeter affair than when supplemented with serranos,
| and equally much less fruity than when pequins are used.
| nkozyra wrote:
| A specific type of pepper. There are many other peppers with
| more heat and variability.
|
| But I'd argue peppers are the easiest non-herb
| vegetable/fruit to grow, so it's a fair suggestion.
| jseliger wrote:
| Less spicy is actually good. I prefer more flavorful chiles,
| with less spice. Mark Miller's conversation with Tyler Cowen is
| good on this subject:
| https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/mark-miller/.
|
| Chiles are actually fruits and, combined judiciously, create a
| lot of complex flavors. Excess spiciness overwhelms the flavor.
| And people who want absurdly spicy peppers, can get them: ghost
| chiles, carolina reapers, and so on.
|
| "Flavor > heat" in other words.
| lupusreal wrote:
| The way commercially packaged jalapenos are now is closer to
| no-heat than low heat. You could swap them with chopped bell
| peppers and most people probably wouldn't notice the
| difference (and many like my father would still complain that
| the dish is too spicy.)
|
| Particularly the chopped and canned/jarred jalapenos; I used
| to buy them for pizzas and chilis but they're just not worth
| it anymore.
| PheonixPharts wrote:
| > I prefer more flavorful chiles, with less spice.
|
| As someone with a fairly high spice tolerance, I've found a
| strong correlation between _heat_ and _flavor_. I think
| anyone coming from a culture that eats spicy food will agree.
|
| I had a batch of habaneros I grew last summer that were both
| the most spicy habaneros I've had, and by far the most
| flavorful. I've also had some very tasty ghost peppers (when
| used in moderation). Outside of peppers that are inherently
| not spicy, such as pablanos, heat and flavor seem to
| coincide.
|
| All of the most flavorful chili dishes I've had in my life
| have all been quite spicy, and I can't recall any mild chili
| dishes I've had with nearly the same punch.
|
| The only time I've seen heat and flavor not connected is in
| terrible hot sauces which aim to be shockingly spices that
| make use of capsaicin extract.
| dheera wrote:
| I really wish we could have a habanero that is 1/4 as spicy.
| I LOVE the flavor of habaneros but their spiciness prevents
| me from putting too much.
| Aloha wrote:
| This is why I can actually Jalapeno now!
|
| Also, Brussel Sprouts still taste like gym socks or bad cabbage
| to me.
| eichin wrote:
| Really, though, the _true_ innovation in brussels sprouts was
| figuring out that you could roast them with bacon and some
| maple or balsamic glaze. ( "Yes, that would also make the box
| they came in taste good")
| tptacek wrote:
| They taste better roasted now, though, because they have
| fewer bitter compounds.
| silverquiet wrote:
| I think I like the occasional wildcard pepper - sometimes
| variety is (literally) the spice of life.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| Be sure to check out Spanish Padron peppers, if you haven't
| already. They're often served fried in olive oil and salted
| (see photo in Wikipedia article), as a very popular tapas.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padr%C3%B3n_pepper
| koyote wrote:
| As someone who grows their own jalapenos:
|
| My plants produce extremely mild peppers...
|
| So either the seeds I got were already bred to be mild or maybe
| there's something else going on there :)
|
| My habaneros are spicy as ever though, so it can't be
| exclusively be environmental.
| fabian2k wrote:
| I find the variance in spiciness for peppers quite annoying. If
| the same packaged product can vary between "I don't even notice
| any spiciness" to "Too spicy for me, I have to throw it away"
| that is just wasteful.
| ryukoposting wrote:
| I got the same impression. There's no nefarious conspiracy to
| make shitty peppers for the tasteless masses. It just makes a
| lot more sense to make mild peppers, then add the capsaicin
| later on.
|
| It'd be nice if you could still get a dice-roll-super-spicy
| jalapeno from the grocery store, though. I can't imagine my
| landlord would be keen on me growing jalapenos behind my
| building (or maybe they'd be fine with it! There's really only
| one way to find out).
| michael1999 wrote:
| Sniff. I miss the old brussels sprouts. The don't freeze
| anymore without turning to mush. But I'll give you broccolini
| -- it's a great addition.
| tempest_ wrote:
| I like the frozen ones because is means I always have an
| emergency veg when I am out of fresh stuff.
|
| I microwave the frozen ones and fry in a cast iron till a
| they are a little burnt on the outside.
| buran77 wrote:
| > today's (delicious) sprouts aren't the same plant as the
| (gross) sprouts of yore
|
| For what it's worth, _your_ (adult) tastes probably changed
| more than the vegetable itself. Even with the reduction in
| glucosinolates, few children would call brussels sprouts
| "delicious". Children are born with a preference for sweetness,
| while disliking bitter tastes. Both of these traits diminish as
| they reach adulthood. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4654709/
| LegibleCrimson wrote:
| Anecdotally, my young children both love brussels sprouts.
| They're actually one of the very few greens I can get them to
| consistently eat, other than green beans.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| We also generally know how to prepare them better. Most
| people these days recommend and prefer them roasted and
| caramelized, and that is a world of difference from the
| boiled to death sprouts of yore.
| tempsy wrote:
| If you have had Huy Fong Sriracha recently you'll probably
| notice that it is less spicy than it used to be.
|
| Apparently they were in a multi year lawsuit with their
| jalapeno pepper supplier based in SoCal that is specifically
| known for spiciness and they lost and started buying jalapenos
| elsewhere.
|
| Then the pepper farmer started selling his own Sriracha sauce.
| tptacek wrote:
| That's super weird, right? Because they could just dope the
| sriracha batches back to whatever level of heat they want. I
| make fermented hot sauce once a year, and I end up doing that
| too? And I'm a dummy?
|
| Are we sure this isn't just a market shift thing? Like: maybe
| they lost some heat unintentionally or unknowingly, but then
| sales went up?
| arprocter wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sriracha_sauce_(Huy_Fong_Foods.
| ..
| hackneyedruse wrote:
| I wasn't aware that brussels sprouts had changed (I thought we
| just learned how to cook them) but sure enough:
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/10/30/773457637/fr...
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Has something similar been done with onions to make them sting
| less? Nowadays they don't bother me whereas when I was growing
| up, decades ago, I couldn't cut one without tears.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _ask a produce manager or a supplier if you can get Early or
| Mitla peppers, or if the store can label its pepper breeds_
|
| There are a lot of jalapeno varieties [1]. Ripe Biker Billies are
| about as hot as cayenne [2].
|
| Looks like one can buy Mitla seeds on Amazon [3].
|
| [1] https://pepperscale.com/jalapeno-varieties/
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayenne_pepper
| not_the_fda wrote:
| I just use serranos now, they are usually hot, add more as
| needed.
| elevaet wrote:
| I'm with you. They are so much like jalapenos, just smaller,
| spicier and usually really consistent. Although recently I had
| a batch that was disappointingly mild.
|
| I think serranos must be very close genetically to jalapenos.
| stevage wrote:
| I've never seen the word "breed" applied to plant cultivars
| before. Is that a common American thing?
| dekhn wrote:
| You mean, like this?
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Burbank#Classical_plant...
| and
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Burbank#Intraspecific_b...
| ? Are you talking about specifically using "breed" (noun) to
| refer to a cultivar, or "breed" (verb) to refer to the process
| by which we obtain new cultivars/
|
| Either way, the term is used colloquially throughout the US
| (and probably more) to refer to the industrial products of
| plant breeding.
| dekhn wrote:
| I've been on a salsa making kick lately and use chipotles, which
| are dried and smoked jalapenos. Raw plain jalapenos were never
| that attractive to me although I did eat them whole frequently
| when I worked in a mexican restaurant...
|
| The chipotles I get are plenty spicy- 3 small chipotles is enough
| heat for an almost uncomfortably spicy salsa (in this case, I'm
| talking about a salsa is made just from the chipotle flesh and
| some spices and water). If it wasn't spicy enough, I'd add arbol
| chiles (just one) which are painfully spicy.
| johnea wrote:
| Without reading the article AT ALL, let me just take a wild
| guess: agri-biz
|
| Name one aspect of life that hasn't gone to shit in the last 20
| years compared to anytime before?
|
| What common thread is shared by all of it? american style
| laissez-faire capitalism...
|
| OK, I'm ready for the crypto-kiddy neo-capitalist backlash, bring
| it esr...
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(page generated 2024-02-26 23:00 UTC)