[HN Gopher] Vvvv - A hybrid visual/textual development environment
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Vvvv - A hybrid visual/textual development environment
Author : loa_in_
Score : 82 points
Date : 2024-02-22 16:16 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (vvvv.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (vvvv.org)
| panzi wrote:
| Not to be confused with VVVVV and VVVVVV, apparently.
| tlhunter wrote:
| With the appropriatly named domain:
| https://thelettervsixtim.es/
| lylejantzi3rd wrote:
| or VVV. https://varyingvagrantvagrants.org/
| fishpen0 wrote:
| Shooting yourself in the foot with marketing and branding on
| day one is a "made by engineers" tale as old as time.
| drivers99 wrote:
| VVVVVV (6 V's) is a fun game (I've played it before, and it has
| "overwhelmingly positive" reviews on steam). VVVVV (5 V's)
| appears to also be a game on Steam with mixed reviews, maybe
| looking for customers confusing it with the other game?
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| No surprise that VVVVV gets worse ratings, it has 1/6 less of
| what makes the game fun
| bj-rn wrote:
| https://vvvv.org/documentation/meaningofvvvv
| nickthegreek wrote:
| Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176
|
| Vvvv - a live-programming environment for easy prototyping and
| development (June 5, 2016 -- 187 points, 36 comments)
| dang wrote:
| Thanks! Macroexpanded:
|
| _Vvvv - A Multipurpose Toolkit_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22013162 - Jan 2020 (1
| comment)
|
| _Vvvv - a live-programming environment for easy prototyping
| and development_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11842176 - June 2016 (36
| comments)
|
| _Vvvv: A hybrid visual /textual live-programming environment
| for easy prototyping_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9179648 - March 2015 (3
| comments)
|
| _Celebrity birthday wishes to vvvv 's 10th anniversary_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4972179 - Dec 2012 (1
| comment)
|
| _VVVV.js - the VVVV language ported to JavaScript_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2813713 - July 2011 (10
| comments)
| bj-rn wrote:
| One more: Vvvv gamma 5.0 - a visual programming environment
| for .Net - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35633832 -
| April 2023
| tebjan wrote:
| And: FUSE an open source library for visually programming on
| the GPU (thefuselab.io) -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28500012 Sept 2021
| slingnow wrote:
| The landing page is as opaque as the name. I _think_ this might
| be something cool, but I have absolutely no idea what it is based
| on the landing page and the included video.
| corysama wrote:
| You have to click to enable the video on the page, but it shows
| the outputs of the program: real-time 3D audio-visual art
| installations.
| bj-rn wrote:
| Check https://visualprogramming.net instead. There are two
| versions of vvvv the old one called "beta" and the newer one
| (complete rewrite) called "gamma". vvvv.org is more focused on
| the old version.
| araes wrote:
| Looking at the page, it seems like there's nothing other than
| art installations in the Showcase.
| https://visualprogramming.net/#Showcase Is there something
| about the software the predisposes it being used only for art
| installations? Or just the community it attracts? It "looks"
| capable.
|
| It seems weird that out of all the showcases, there's not
| anything like normal industry projects. No games, no movies,
| no television shows. Lots of museum displays, AI scultures,
| art walls.
|
| Take Blender instead https://www.blender.org/features/ and
| its almost entirely "industry production pipeline" and "award
| winning shorts and films". Or Maya, which is pretty much
| nothing other than "used in Hogwarts, used in Avengers, used
| in Dune." Notably, not very many art walls or digi-scultures.
|
| Usually its a chicken and egg thing, like nobody uses it,
| because nobody famous has used it yet, except vvvv looks like
| it has plenty of users.
| bj-rn wrote:
| > Or just the community it attracts?
|
| The way it works seems to appeal to "artists" /
| "creatives". It's pretty simple to get a visual output fast
| and the always running (hot-reload) aspect makes it easy to
| iterate on things, tweak some parameter (size, speed,
| color) and directly see the outcome.
|
| > normal industry projects
|
| It's used quite a lot in the context of trade fairs, not
| only for touchscreen exhibits but also stage shows. Nice
| example: https://nsynk.de/work/mercedes-iaa15
|
| There are also totally different kinds of projects/uses,
| they are just not that well documented. For example I know
| of a guy that programmed a feeding robot for a fish farm
| using vvvv.
|
| > nobody famous
|
| There is at least one "famous" user :)
|
| https://refikanadol.com
|
| If you have further questions feel free to join their
| matrix chat:
|
| https://matrix.to/#/#vvvv:matrix.org
| araes wrote:
| Thanks for the answers, explanation, and invite. It looks
| like interesting software, and live update does seem like
| a nice feature. I guess I'm just surprised that does not
| appeal to the WebGl, javascript, and online community all
| that much, since that's one of the main perks of those is
| quick feedback without compiling. Tweak, load the page.
|
| Had not heard of Anadol (not much involvement in the pro
| art community), yet working with the sphere in Vegas
| probably means at least fairly well known.
| _neil wrote:
| As an example, if you're familiar with Refik Anadol, he/they use
| vvvv for many of their works.
|
| https://refikanadol.com/works/melting-memories/
| nomadtwin wrote:
| I found www.cables.gl to be much more intuitive for node-based
| visual experiments (no install and collab mode)
| nomadtwin wrote:
| https://cables.gl
| monetus wrote:
| Vvvv is a real, proper windows creative coding toolkit. More
| arcane than Max or touch designer, imo, but every bit suitable
| for entertainment industry jobs.
|
| It has been years since I used it, windows 7 actually, but their
| community had an old school "irc with angry sages" feel.
| g129774 wrote:
| there was a period in computer arts around 2008 or so (edit,
| bjorn's comment prompted a reflection, it might've been earlier
| than that, let's call it "early 2000s"), that went away like many
| things with pervasive computerization. vvvv including it's naming
| and otherwise opaqueness is a product of that period. it was
| represented by groups like TOPLAP and dorkbot, and it was kind of
| marriage of technologists and artists, back when such a marriage
| would've still been self-conscious. stylistically it was a lot of
| algorithmic generation, live coding, and noise, people liked to
| use puredata, and vvvv, and other such projects to produce sharp
| jittery zigzaging lines on a projector screen at get togethers in
| brooklyn. a kind of deliberate, practiced obscurantism was part
| of aesthetic, you weren't supposed to keep your PD patches
| organized. there was a particular typographic convention
| associated with projects of that time, involving a lot of
| deliberate but arbitrary additions of punctuation marks,
| -/////lower case letters, repeating letters00xxx. terms like
| psychogeorgaphy were involved, there was of course an {esoteric}}
| component to it. downstream the movement took chiptunes
| mainstream, and produce early minimal house. some of the
| conventions remain in the digital arts, and video production
| circles.
|
| so if you think vvvv is not propertly marketed, maybe will
| benefit from a mission statement, then it's not for you.
| bj-rn wrote:
| > there was a period in computer arts around 2008 [...] vvvv
| including it's naming and otherwise opaqueness is a product of
| that period
|
| actually vvvv is about 10 years older.
| g129774 wrote:
| the dates are vague, while the point remains, because trying
| to remember things clearer i did livecoding at toplap in
| brooklyn 2004-2005, and i wasn't a pioneer. but also i'm
| talking artistic trends, something could've happened prior to
| it becoming part of bigger whole, but then evolved as part of
| the whole that it itself has brought about.
| g129774 wrote:
| but you're one of the meso guys, it would've been interesting
| to hear your opinions on what i said, outside the quible
| about dates. in my recollection vvvv leaned heavily into the
| aesthetic conventions around toplap at the time, and you must
| recall what i'm talking about judging by dates on your
| project page.
| bj-rn wrote:
| I started out at meso (~2005) and I worked for them for
| quite some time but I am not really one of the meso guys.
| tbh I landed there by chance at the recommendation of a
| friend while looking for a place to write my diploma
| thesis. at that time I had no idea whatsoever what they
| were doing and no relation at all to "digital arts" or
| "generative design".
| necrotic_comp wrote:
| This aesthetic is of its time but is really import - I went to
| the share@open air parties in ~2003 or so, continuing to visit
| periodically through their run at Santo's Party House. I didn't
| know anything at the time, and the overwhelming obscurantism
| was part of the appeal.
|
| I have a lot of feelings about this movement, and I'm happy
| that I was a part of it. It's driven my feelings about music
| and art in general, and I've spent a ton of my time since then
| trying to figure out how to make things that put music first
| while still containing the cold stochasticity of this time.
|
| I found a great set of pictures on Flickr from ~2007-2008:
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/oblaat/with/3062581867
| enqk wrote:
| antiorp
| joemi wrote:
| I might be misinterpreting the aesthetic you're talking about,
| but I think it was similar to (and probably directly inspired
| by) the graphic design that The Designers Republic was doing in
| the 90's (think the Wipeout videogame). Their aesthetic spread
| pretty rapidly at the time.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I remember this crashing alot. TouchDesigner kind of ate its
| lunch but vvvv is still active - vvvv kind of keeps you locked
| into writing shit in .NET/C# but if that's your bag go for it
| remram wrote:
| This seems like it might be relevant to my job, but I can't find
| out what it is exactly.
|
| Is it actually a renderer?
| bj-rn wrote:
| I mentioned this aleady further down but check out:
| https://visualprogramming.net
|
| It does a better job at explaining things.
| jbl0ndie wrote:
| It's a node-based visual framework, I guess. Around 2006 I
| worked on a project using VVVV to create sound reactive,
| generative visuals that tracked a pop singer as he moved on an
| LED stage. The visuals were displayed on the stage.
|
| We had it hooked up to MIDI, time code, video, motion tracking
| and DMX lighting. Pretty impressive for the time, now I think
| about it.
| remram wrote:
| But what is a "visual framework"? The frontpage mentions
| everything from AR/VR to network streams to modeling... what
| does one do with this?
| bj-rn wrote:
| It's a visual programming environment for .net (the current
| stable versions is based on .net6 while newer previews use
| .net8). Visual in the sense that programs are represented
| as node graphs.[1] You can basically do what ever you could
| with C#. Using the VL.Fuse[2] library you can also visually
| program on the GPU. If stuff is missing you can reference
| just about any nuget package or add functionality using C#
| (CPU) [3] or HLSL (GPU)[4].
|
| [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_graph_architecture
|
| [2]https://github.com/TheFuseLab/VL.Fuse
|
| [3]https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/extending/overvie
| w.ht...
|
| [4]https://thegraybook.vvvv.org/reference/libraries/3d/shad
| ers....
| jbl0ndie wrote:
| That's a way better explanation.
| jbl0ndie wrote:
| I didn't explain it well but I think that's the point, one
| could do all kinds of visual or audio things, it's one of
| many multitools for audo-visual media creation. Often these
| projects need to combine multiple technologies to reach
| their goals. Often deadlines and expectations are
| ludicrous. Being able to sketch, prototype visually and
| build the finished project in the same tool is useful.
| Forget Figma it takes too long.
|
| If you have a project that needs lights, video, lasers,
| sound, motion, cameras, exotic sensors etc and speed of
| creation is maybe more important than long-term stability,
| something like this might allow you to sketch your way to a
| solution significantly faster. The real code is always
| underneath, but it's kind of like having some kind of flow
| diagram, sketch tool, visual debugger and IDE.
|
| The creative coding 'scene' (at least when I felt part of
| it) is loosely divided between patcher tools and
| traditional code-based tooling. vvvv is a patcher, like
| Max/MSP, PureData and Touchdesigner. You connect function
| blocks together to do stuff, you can see the data flow
| between and see the visuals they create. Like creating
| shaders at a high level of abstraction, I guess.
|
| More code-based languages and frameworks include:
|
| [1] openFrameworks https://openframeworks.cc/ C++
|
| [2] Processing https://processing.org/ Java or JavaScript
|
| [3] Nannou https://nannou.cc/ Rust
| gareth_untether wrote:
| I used 4v professionally for a number of years. Probably would to
| be using it if the devvvvs focused on more platforms than just
| Windows.
|
| The best part of 4v is the community and the node festival. Lots
| of amazing techno artists.
| jbl0ndie wrote:
| Back in the early 2000s there was such poor support from non-
| Windows for high powered graphics cards, it's no wonder vvvv
| never moved to other platforms. I worked at a Mac/Linux art
| studio in that time and we had to keep buying Windows boxes
| just to run the video artworks we produced.
|
| The hours we wasted trying to lock them down.
| chaosprint wrote:
| I heard about vvvv in my first year of studying in this industry.
| And kyma for sound design.
|
| But I later discovered that the more mainstream ones are puredata
| and its commercial version max/msp. for sound design I also use:
| supercollider and csound.
|
| After some years, I felt that I still preferred text-based
| interaction while I need some even simpler live coding or
| prototyping tool. so I made https://glicol.org/.
|
| for visuals, I would recommend:
|
| https://hydra.ojack.xyz/
|
| and
|
| https://nannou.cc/
|
| Note that these are not replaceable for each other, you can look
| at them all
| fragmede wrote:
| Glicol is awesome! I really like the non-linear edit/run loop
| you've created.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| Similar - my Swiss Army knife in this department - TouchDesigner:
| https://derivative.ca
| danielvaughn wrote:
| This site may have been hugged to death, it's a dead link for me.
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