[HN Gopher] I was infected with Zika to test a vaccine
___________________________________________________________________
I was infected with Zika to test a vaccine
Author : bswud
Score : 121 points
Date : 2024-02-20 13:40 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (worksinprogress.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (worksinprogress.co)
| delichon wrote:
| "Polio still persists in Taliban-controlled regions, after the
| CIA ran a fake vaccination campaign to try to catch Osama bin
| Laden. Vaccination workers are now killed as potential spies."
|
| That sounds like an effective tactic if your goal is to cause
| random wide scale death and misery. If it was actually only to
| catch one man, it would be just for the people responsible to
| become vaccine test subjects.
| crakenzak wrote:
| The CIA is one of the most wicked organizations I've ever heard
| of. And that's just from the small amount of info we know about
| them.
| somenameforme wrote:
| Think about the fact that this [1] only did not happen
| because a single person intervened - just a single person
| along the long line of custody from inception to proposal.
| And the person who refused to let it happen was JFK.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
| NoGravitas wrote:
| And look what happened to him.
| westmeal wrote:
| But it was TOTALLY not the CIA. There is NO WAY the CIA
| could've done that.
| lawn wrote:
| Wow, I've somehow missed this.
| jonhohle wrote:
| I'm not sure if it's sarcasm or not, but The Devil's
| Chessboard lays out a case for the CIA acting as the
| military arm of the rich and powerful starting basically
| at its inception. All of the "communist" overthrows in
| the 50s and 60s happen to coincide with nationalist
| leaders (often democratically elected) who want to keep
| some of a country's resources from falling further into
| the control of American corps. This typically resulted in
| actual dictators replacing them that allowed the
| businesses to continue to exploit while at the same time
| severely oppressing the locals.
|
| Some of the evidence is compelling, others is
| speculative, but a lot of the same bad actors show up in
| a lot of very similar global (and local) affairs.
| masfuerte wrote:
| Not just the CIA.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _nationalist leaders (often democratically elected) who
| want to keep some of a country's resources from falling
| further into the control of American corps_
|
| This is an old geopolitical problem: rich democracies
| tended to surround themselves with alliances of despots.
| Athens, Rome and America. The corporate interests
| hypothesis is interesting. But the resilient one is that
| dictators reliably deliver foreign policy goals that
| electeds' voters value.
| petsfed wrote:
| I'll add that book to my reading list.
|
| I think, more broadly, that American, British, and French
| "anti-communist" foreign policy has consistently been
| about ensuring that American, British, and French
| companies continue unfettered access to a colonized
| nation's resources. Your actual governmental or economic
| structure is irrelevant, so long as Shell Oil or United
| Fruit Company are only answerable to their shareholders,
| and not the people of the country they're exploiting.
|
| Anti-communism, colonialism, nation-building, all these
| justifications eventually become just rationalizations
| for protecting _specifically_ the colonizer 's economic
| interests. The Great Hunger, the Bengal Famine, the
| Banana Massacre, the excesses of the regime of Mohammad
| Reza Shah, the Mandate for Palestine, the Belgian fucking
| Congo, all of these result from optimizing for foreign
| economic interests without any regard for local social
| interests.
| pastacacioepepe wrote:
| Loving how very based is this HN thread
| diggan wrote:
| Worth noting that while that those proposed self-inflicted
| terrorist attacks were rejected, other terrorist attacks in
| Cuba by CIA were approved:
|
| > The Cuban Project, also known as Operation Mongoose, was
| an extensive campaign of terrorist attacks against
| civilians, and covert operations, carried out by the U.S.
| Central Intelligence Agency in Cuba.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mongoose
|
| Whenever one falls down the CIA rabbit-hole, it never
| continues surprise just how much pain they have inflicted
| on the world.
| instagib wrote:
| The list of 'see also' on the site is a fun read. I never
| read about the "fog of war" incident before related to the
| Vietnam war inception which never happened.
|
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident
| piva00 wrote:
| The CIA absolutely fucked Latin America, staging coups,
| pushing US businesses interests, putting military
| dictatorships in power and assisting them while in power. The
| damage runs deep and I think it's quite overwhelming hearing
| from ignorant and/or naive Americans about the issues China
| may cause, or the deaths that dictatorships brought into the
| world.
|
| The misery inflicted into generations of the peoples found
| under the thumb of Uncle Sam's is almost unimaginable, it's
| all under wraps though, since winners write history the US is
| not currently seen as one of the major sources of instability
| and social strife in so many countries it involved itself in.
|
| When Americans look at Latin America and see the mess it
| exists in there's no self-reflection about their part in
| causing it. American needs trumped over all the rights to
| self-determination of these peoples, be it assisting United
| Fruit Company to destroy Guatemala, the dictatorships in
| Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Peru, etc. And all the aftermath of
| the USA forcing countries in its "sphere of influence" to
| abide by what the USA wanted, if you attempted to go out of
| line there'd be a CIA team taking your government down in no
| time.
|
| It's just wishful thinking but I wish to see the USA
| reckoning with all the misery it caused in my lifetime. It's
| personal to me since one of my relatives was killed during
| the Brazilian dictatorship, he was simply trying to be an
| active part of an union.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| >issues China may cause ...The misery inflicted into
| generations of the peoples found under the thumb of Uncle
| Sam's is almost unimaginable, it's all under wraps though
|
| Under wraps, and yet here you are talking about it on an
| American website, seemingly without much fear of
| repercussions or being censored for it. Is it as easy or
| welcome to talk about Chinese committed atrocities on
| Chinese websites?
| piva00 wrote:
| Under wraps from general American society, yes. Go right
| now on the streets of your USA city and ask about the
| atrocities the USA has committed in Latin America, check
| what % of the people even know about that.
|
| My comment about China is meant more in relation to the
| boogeyman created out of China to push USA's interests, I
| don't condone authoritarianism at all (it should be
| pretty clear after I mention a dead relative by the hands
| of a dictatorship) but I do have very high reservations
| about whatever the USA pushes for manufacturing consent
| across the globe, right now it's the China boogeyman.
|
| The whole play of the USA is also to keep the veil of a
| freedoms' paragon as a misdirection for its
| transgressions, it's layered in misdirection using
| language such as "defense of freedom", "free market",
| "business interests" while behaving schizophrenically by
| supporting dictators who align to its interests (e.g.:
| Saudi Arabia, multiple dictatorships in Latin America).
| It's all bullshit. Owning that it's all bullshit won't
| ever happen, it needs to keep the discourse to keep the
| facade of a force for good.
|
| At least China is more honest, they are dicks, they are
| ruthless, they can be aggressive, but no one else was
| misled to believe otherwise. That's not the case with the
| USA.
|
| And my rant over your "whatabout" point ends here.
| petsfed wrote:
| The fact that I can freely discuss the fact that my
| government installs and supports (occasionally very
| directly) brutally anti-democratic regimes that stand in
| complete opposition to everything my country claims to
| stand for, does not somehow negate the fact that my
| country is doing those things. This isn't a question of
| "is the US better/worse than China/Russia/etc?". The
| question is "Is the US living up to its own legend?"
|
| I would argue that, based on the activities of the CIA
| and other arms of the government, the answer is
| unambiguously "NO".
|
| I understand that one of the key ways that e.g. Putin
| remains acceptable to his population despite being
| unambiguously a strongman is to basically say "I am no
| better than any of them, except that I never said I would
| be".
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| The CIA has definitely committed some pretty heinous acts,
| but the only reason they appear worse than your average
| national intelligence service is that the US has a habit of
| declassifying operations and documents after they're no
| longer active and/or relevant, forcing them to confess to a
| subset of their crimes. Most national intelligence services
| are allowed to freely and happily cover up the vast majority
| of their crimes indefinitely, and there's much less
| opportunity to hold them accountable unless they actually get
| caught.
| tootie wrote:
| The CIA is the covert agency of American foreign policy. They
| don't act independently.
| aqme28 wrote:
| "The distrust sowed by the sham campaign in Pakistan could
| conceivably postpone polio eradication for 20 years, leading to
| 100,000 more cases that might otherwise not have occurred"
|
| Doesn't really make sense to measure tragedies in terms of
| 9/11s, but I wonder how many 9/11s the US has caused in the
| name of killing Bin Laden.
| deepsun wrote:
| Or prevented.
| samatman wrote:
| That estimate is pretty insane. There were 374 polio cases in
| 2023, six of which were in Pakistan. Half were in DR Congo,
| where I don't believe the mission to find bin Laden has
| affected eradication efforts.
|
| Twenty more years of that rate would be 7,480 cases, not
| 100,000. It's also risible to suggest that any of that
| nonsense has seriously hindered eradication, caseloads in
| that region remain very low, the hotspots are elsewhere.
|
| https://www.who.int/news/item/22-12-2023-statement-
| following...).
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| While I don't know where the 100,000 number comes from, I
| believe most of the cases that occur outside Pakistan and
| Afghanistan are caused by the vaccine. Wikipedia lists
| those two countries as the only place polio is still
| endemic.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_eradication#2023
| robertlagrant wrote:
| > I believe
|
| Why?
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| That's what Wikipedia says, and I have no reason to doubt
| it?
|
| We're fully aware the vaccine does cause some polio
| infections, and the countries that are seeing cases are
| still in the middle of their vaccination campaigns.
| blippe wrote:
| "What is vaccine-derived polio?
|
| Oral polio vaccine (OPV) contains an attenuated
| (weakened) vaccine-virus, activating an immune response
| in the body. When a child is immunized with OPV, the
| weakened vaccine-virus replicates in the intestine for a
| limited period, thereby developing immunity by building
| up antibodies. During this time, the vaccine-virus is
| also excreted. In areas of inadequate sanitation, this
| excreted vaccine-virus can spread in the immediate
| community (and this can offer protection to other
| children through 'passive' immunization), before
| eventually dying out.
|
| On rare occasions, if a population is seriously under-
| immunized, an excreted vaccine-virus can continue to
| circulate for an extended period of time. The longer it
| is allowed to survive, the more genetic changes it
| undergoes. In very rare instances, the vaccine-virus can
| genetically change into a form that can paralyse - this
| is what is known as a circulating vaccine-derived
| poliovirus (cVDPV)."
|
| - WHO
|
| https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-
| answers/item/pol...
| zer00eyz wrote:
| It's a fair statement and question.
|
| Why is it so hard to get clear data on this topic.
|
| Please show me clear data from reputable sources on all
| of this. It would end a lot of the the vaccine
| controversy.
|
| Let's take something like tetanus boosters. They are
| recommended once every 10 years not because you "need"
| one per se but the cost and expense of running a trial
| longer than that made it no longer worth the effort.
| xkbarkar wrote:
| https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-01953-7
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| > Why?
|
| WHO
| anonuser123456 wrote:
| Note to people downvoting this (because maybe they think
| it's anti-vaccine crankery). The attenuated polio virus
| vaccine can cause polio. The reward far outweighs the
| risk.
| 6177c40f wrote:
| Should also be noted that in 2016 the trivalent OPV was
| replaced with a bivalent vaccine in an attempt to further
| mitigate the risk [1]:
|
| > Until 2015, over 90% of cVDPV cases were due to the
| type 2 component in OPV. With the transmission of wild
| poliovirus type 2 already successfully interrupted since
| 1999, in April 2016 a switch was implemented from
| trivalent OPV to bivalent OPV in routine immunization
| programmes. The removal of the type 2 component of OPV is
| associated with significant public health benefits,
| including a reduction of the risk of cases of cVDPV2.
|
| [1] https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-
| answers/item/pol...
| laputan-machine wrote:
| Also note that 'attuenated virus vaccine' means the oral
| vaccine that is prevalent in the developing world, and
| not the vaccine that, e.g. EU citizens get, I had to look
| this up, as it is not obvious.
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| I'm not sure why you've been downvoted for this-maybe a
| little skittishness after years of anti-vax nonsense--but
| my understanding is also that you're completely correct
| and the vast majority of polio infections are vaccine-
| derived. The oral polio vaccine is (I think?) the only
| widely-used vaccine where this is a risk, and it's well-
| known.
| laputan-machine wrote:
| > I'm not sure why you've been downvoted for this-maybe a
| little skittishness after years of anti-vax nonsense
|
| A tangent, but isn't this a problem? We should welcome
| skepticism, if we can easily refute it: no problem.
| CodeWriter23 wrote:
| Refute or Affirm with further research, not a PR
| campaign.
| meatmanek wrote:
| It's worth noting that by eradicating Polio we can also
| eradicate vaccine-derived polio, as we'd presumably stop
| vaccinating people once the disease is eradicated, as we
| did with smallpox.
| sampo wrote:
| > There were 374 polio cases in 2023
|
| Wikipedia says polio is asymptomatic in 72% of cases, and
| feels like a mild-ish flu in 24% of cases. So in total 96%
| of cases are probably not detected at all.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > It's also risible to suggest that any of that nonsense
| has seriously hindered eradication, caseloads in that
| region remain very low, the hotspots are elsewhere.
|
| It has killed off trust in Western vaccination programs not
| just in Pakistan but also in Africa and a whole other lot
| of places. The ripple effects from that have been
| _immense_...
|
| There is a reason why the label "medical" should not be
| abused. The US campaign against Bin Laden, Hamas using
| hospitals to hide command centers and hostages or as a
| shooting range, Israeli agents infiltrating a hospital to
| execute suspected Hamas operatives, German police placing
| Red Crosses on their medical vans [1]... the list of abuses
| is long, and at least for war-related action international
| agreements actually ban that kind of abuse - we're seeing
| in Palestine right now why.
|
| [1] https://www.l-iz.de/leben/faelle-
| unfaelle/2021/12/ausgekreuz...
| burkaman wrote:
| The estimate is from 10 years ago, before the consequences
| of the CIA campaign were known:
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/26018167.
|
| It's also an opinion piece and the estimate is not a direct
| quote, so I'm wondering if they might have incorrectly
| paraphrased what their source told them.
| fred_is_fred wrote:
| I wonder how long until it's endemic in states like
| Wyoming, Texas, and South Dakota which have rapidly
| declining vaccination rates.
| JoshTko wrote:
| Shouldn't the estimate apply to all vaccine hesitancy in
| region as the hesitancy would not be limited to Polio
| vaccines.
| redder23 wrote:
| Oh, it makes a hole lot of sense!
| Keoro488 wrote:
| Nobody cares about 9/11 today. How many millions did CIA
| killed with fake vaccination campaigns recently!! Or they
| just stopped because they are good guys now?!
| vvvvvvvvvvvv wrote:
| This is ridiculous and bordering on misinformation, polio was
| already prevalent in AF before the 2014 revelation, in large
| part BECAUSE of the talibans.
|
| "In Afghanistan and Pakistan, fears that the vaccine contained
| contraceptives were one reason given by the Taliban in issuing
| fatwas against polio vaccination.[47][43][48]"
|
| Even outside of that, the talibans would have shot those health
| workers eventually like they did with the 9 year old girl that
| wanted education, they do not like outsiders showing people
| their environment can be better.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| >"Polio still persists in Taliban-controlled regions, after the
| CIA ran a fake vaccination campaign to try to catch Osama bin
| Laden. Vaccination workers are now killed as potential spies."
|
| The connection is bullshit. Afghanistan has a long and proud
| history of killing polio vaccination workers. Also, any other
| aid worker. Especially women.
|
| https://reliefweb.int/report/afghanistan/analysis-attacks-ai...
| (2008)
|
| I was in Afghanistan for over two years over two deployments.
| Outside of the cities Afghans:
|
| 1. Don't know who Osama Bin Laden is.
|
| 2. Don't know that he was killed.
|
| 3. Don't know that the CIA ran a (not fake, real) vaccination
| campaign to locate Bin Laden. Or what the CIA is for that
| matter, or what or who the US is.
|
| 4. Barely know that there is a central government, who runs it,
| or what city is the capital.
|
| They only know their local clan and the immediate local leader.
|
| They're not running around scared of CIA agents they are scared
| of all outsiders and any outsider who can provide relief or
| comfort that the local leader cannot instantly becomes the
| enemy of the local leader.
|
| This is also true in Pakistan and several African nations.
| joshuaissac wrote:
| > Don't know that the CIA ran a (not fake, real) vaccination
| campaign to locate Bin Laden.
|
| This Lancet editorial suggests that the vaccination campaign
| was fake: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/P
| IIS0140-6...
|
| This is the campaign that is usually referred to when people
| talk about the fake vaccination campaign to locate bin Laden,
| but it was conducted in Abottabad, Pakistan. Are you
| referring to a different campaign that was conducted in
| Afghanistan?
| lukan wrote:
| He is saying, there is not much difference between tribal
| people in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I'm more than willing to believe what you say about the local
| leaders, but the article you linked says aid workers were
| being killed because the Taliban associated them with US
| military reconstruction and the Karzai government.
| snakeyjake wrote:
| The reason will always change and always be irrelevant.
|
| In the past (PRE CIA PROGRAM) in other countries it has
| been that the foreign aid workers have been assassinated
| because their program:
|
| * is a sterilization conspiracy
|
| * corrupts the young women hired and trained to locally
| administer the vaccines
|
| * was proselytizing and spying on the locals
|
| And I don't fault them for thinking any of that just look
| at the nutjobs in the west who ramble on about vaccines.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > (not fake, real) vaccination campaign
|
| It was a fake campaign because they gave one out of three
| doses and then left.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| Maybe you should assign some portion of the blame to the
| murderous cultists who are killing medical professions and
| consider the reason they are so worried about spies is that
| they were celebrating, supporting, and hiding mass murderers.
| d--b wrote:
| Zika may also have oncologic effect on glioblastoma (most common
| and deadly brain cancer). If I had glioblastoma, the first thing
| I'd do is visit a zika infested area.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10267364/
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7529292/
| mat_epice wrote:
| I've just come to realize from this article that human challenge
| trials are really a form of trolley problem [1]. Is it more
| ethical to "do nothing" and gather data from infections in the
| wild, where many people are potentially harmed, or do you "throw
| the switch" and infect a much smaller number deliberately to get
| high quality data?
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
| Symmetry wrote:
| I think that most people would say that diverting the trolley
| to where you, yourself, are tied up would be a moral but
| supererogatory thing to do. But we still make it impossible to
| do that because the relatives of the person who sacrifices
| themselves might sue the institution that allows it.
| Kronopath wrote:
| Always has been.
|
| Now picture what would have happened if we had been willing to
| do challenge trials early on for COVID.
|
| I encourage you to check out 1DaySooner, which the author
| mentions at the beginning of the article:
| https://www.1daysooner.org/
| this_user wrote:
| > Now picture what would have happened if we had been willing
| to do challenge trials early on for COVID.
|
| Nothing much most likely. The mRNA vaccines were designed
| very rapidly after the virus itself had been sequenced. The
| thing that took time was moving through the different trial
| phases. Given that there was more than enough spread of the
| virus in the wild, deliberately exposing people might have
| shaved off a few weeks at most.
|
| But the real bottleneck afterwards was production and roll-
| out of the vaccines anyway. So realistically, challenge
| trials would not have had any meaningful impact.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >The thing that took time was moving through the different
| trial phases. Given that there was more than enough spread
| of the virus in the wild, deliberately exposing people
| might have shaved off a few weeks at most.
|
| I dont think that is accurate. You can run a challenge
| trial from exposure to outcome in weeks, whereas it takes
| many months and tens of thousands of people to get enough
| cases in the wild.
|
| It may still be that production was the critical path, but
| challenge trials are much faster.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| An issue with doing a COVID-19 challenge trial that I heard
| from someone in this space at the time: Nobody actually knew
| how much virus to administer. We weren't sure of the normal
| quantity of COVID-19 a person typically inhales before
| becoming sick.
|
| A major argument in favor of a challenge trial was that, for
| people who are young and otherwise healthy, COVID-19 isn't
| particularly deadly. However, we don't know what would have
| happened if we accidentally gave participants 10x the normal
| dose of COVID.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| >An issue with doing a COVID-19 challenge trial that I
| heard from someone in this space at the time: Nobody
| actually knew how much virus to administer. We weren't sure
| of the normal quantity of COVID-19 a person typically
| inhales before becoming sick.
|
| I dont think that is accurate. You dont have to know the
| actual viral quantity transmitted to create a
| representative transmission event. That is to say, if you
| know people can catch covid sitting side by side, that can
| be your challenge.
|
| Even if the scenario isn't perfect, you still know how many
| people caught it vs placebo.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| Yes, but again: If you gave participants an ineffective
| or placebo vaccine followed by 10+ times the normal dose
| of COVID, how many of them would die?
|
| If you're okay with potentially killing a majority of the
| people in the trial, I suppose you could still get useful
| data, but the ethics become significantly more
| questionable IMO.
| fasthands9 wrote:
| It is also a tricky statistical problem.
|
| Obviously the covid vaccine was an unprecedented effort, but do
| remember reading how the high rate of infection in the US made
| it statistically easier to test. Within a few months you could
| observe the gap between the control and treated group.
|
| With vaccines for things like cancer, that take decades to
| develop and at a low rate, you need to wait a very long time
| even if you have a large group.
| jessriedel wrote:
| It contains the tension between utilitarianism and the
| deontological act/omission distinction that the trolley problem
| is meant to isolate, but clinical trials are philosophically
| _very_ different in that (1) the risks you cause during a trial
| are statistical rather than leading reliably to death of any
| one person, (2) trial participants can and are compensated for
| this risk, and (above all) (3) the trial participants have
| consented. In other words, there very little tension
| /inconsistency in saying that throwing the trolley switch is
| unethical but running human challenge trials is ethical.
| Nifty3929 wrote:
| Except that it's the person on the side track who controls the
| switch.
|
| People are not being forced into this (by the US at least).
| beacon294 wrote:
| The labor market (how to get money if you don't have enough)
| creates a perverse incentive. I wonder if anyone has
| reaearched the "volunteers" and their position in both labor
| and wealth.
| Nifty3929 wrote:
| I wonder why I never hear this argument applied to
| government spending in general. In non-authoritarian
| countries, spending money is the primary means for the
| government to inflict their will on the public, regardless
| whether it will have a positive impact on society.
| baby wrote:
| they are being forced by statistics. It's a supply/demand
| problem. If you get people in a bad economical situation and
| then give them enough money you will get them to do your
| thing. Just increase the amount of money until you get enough
| people signing up.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Hopefully once we map out more largely ignored human systems, we
| can rely more on in silico studies.
|
| https://www.humanimmunomeproject.org/
|
| > For those we can't cure, we can treat symptoms. We may not be
| able to remove the virus causing a cold from your system, but we
| can give you painkillers for your headache, tissues for your
| nose, or cough suppressant medicines. It's not an ideal solution,
| but it is part of a realistic answer.
|
| This is such a gamble. For example, I am one of the 1/10 of the
| population who has Long COVID from an early infection prior to
| vaccines thought no worse than a cold. There are also folks who
| got vaccinated and experience the same syndrome I do. I would
| never risk these odds to have to deal with over 3 years of
| constant debilitating pain when I was a previously healthy 29
| year old now pushing 32. At this rate, I will likely see 5 full
| years of my life in a struggle before any treatment hits the
| shelves given there are very few things that can "treat the
| symptoms".
|
| https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.11.09.23298266v...
|
| > At the start of this piece, I said I wasn't fussed with the
| risk. Looking back at this later, I'm supposed to call this
| hubris. I still itch across most of my upper body. I'm
| alternating acetaminophen and ibuprofen. As I edited this piece
| weeks after the trial, I struggled with fatigue that made it
| difficult to work. Being released from the hospital only to
| develop worse symptoms is more than a little strange, but it did
| mean being taken care of by my partner and eating homemade meals
| at the worst moments, both of which I enjoyed. All in all,
| though, I don't think it was hubris at all. The risks were
| reasonable, the pay made up for the itch, and I think the benefit
| to science doubly so.
|
| Imagine if this were more debilitating like another illness
| (ME/CFS, Long COVID, Cancer, etc). Would you seriously risk years
| of your life for $5k? The only way I'd ever do this is as a
| sacrifice to the good of humanity. But we all know that our
| sacrifices aren't seen as anything further than a small paycheck
| in the grand scheme of pushing science forward. That needs to
| change and we need to devote more gratitude to people who are
| participating. Give them actual funds to sustain their symptoms
| with or find ways to dedicate their name towards the good of
| science often.
| appletrotter wrote:
| https://www.factcheck.org/2023/12/scicheck-yale-preprint-rec...
| thenerdhead wrote:
| https://duke.mediasite.com/Mediasite/Play/ce2ecf77e1934b30aa.
| ..
|
| 51:53
|
| https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-
| coronavir...
| giantg2 wrote:
| "I would receive no 'direct benefits' from the study - except for
| $4,875 in cash."
|
| They don't cover related medical treatment for adverse events?
| captainkrtek wrote:
| I believe not. I was part of a phase 1 clinical study for a
| vaccine, and I recall asking a question along these lines. They
| mentioned some medical care may be covered, but otherwise not.
| This was a few years ago so I could be mistaken.
| swozey wrote:
| My vietnam vet dad, drafted, let the army knock all of his teeth
| out + break his jaw so they could (test?|practice?) some new
| orthodontia method to straighten GI teeth.
|
| As someone who has spent a fortune on having pretty teeth I
| absolutely would not be willing to have my jaw and teeth beaten
| out of me and that fact always blows my mind. I have no idea what
| the status of ortho care was back then but the rest of my family
| have nice teeth without having chewed a grenade.
|
| And he has had nonstop teeth/jaw issues since his service.
| itsmemattchung wrote:
| Damn, what combination of: an insane pain tolerance, high
| levels of curiosity, big desire of beauty. I wonder how many
| other people this procedure was tested on?
| Magi604 wrote:
| I used to work in my downtown and I would regularly run into a
| guy who would push around an empty wheelchair most days. Some
| days though he would be sitting in it. I asked him about it, and
| he said he did drug and medicine trials, and some days he
| couldn't walk because of them so he would need the wheelchair to
| move around. No idea how truthful he was because I don't know how
| that stuff works here in Canada (and this was years and years ago
| too) but he came to mind after reading this article.
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