[HN Gopher] I taught the Iliad to Chinese teenagers
___________________________________________________________________
I taught the Iliad to Chinese teenagers
Author : StefanBatory
Score : 99 points
Date : 2024-02-18 17:07 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (scholars-stage.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (scholars-stage.org)
| mcenedella wrote:
| Scholar's Stage is an internet treasure.
| kurthr wrote:
| This story makes me want to reread a classic. It's amazing how
| motivating a good teacher can be!
| aleksiy123 wrote:
| Being able to rewrite your essay after feedback makes so much
| sense.
|
| I wonder why this isn't standard. I guess the extra work
| involved.
| justin66 wrote:
| What the author describes sounds similar to the normal process
| of reviewing a first or even a second draft, but with extra
| terror and bullying built into it.
|
| _Every essay I receive is graded with a terrible harshness.
| Almost no one gets an A on the first try. But all students are
| given a second try. I return their essays with dozens of
| comments in the margins, a graded rubric, and a paragraph of
| instructions on how they should improve their work._
| aleksiy123 wrote:
| I don't think this bullying if he is upfront about the
| rubric/requirements. He isn't saying he doesn't give them an
| A on purpose. He says almost noone does against those
| requirements set out. As long as those requirements are not
| unreasonable.
|
| He is also explicitly giving them instruction on how to
| improve as well as comments. If they follow they follow the
| suggestions and then get an A. That seems fair.
|
| I don't remember my teachers ever reviewing a first or second
| draft for me. Just turn in an essay and get a final immutable
| grade.
|
| I do have a vivid memory of getting my first A in 8th grade
| art class just by asking what I could improve in my drawing a
| couple of times before the final turn in. Apparently I never
| thought to apply the same process the rest of school :/
| watwut wrote:
| They were never taught American school essay writing style
| before ever. And while Americans think it is the most
| natural thing in the world, it come across as completely
| artificial weird structure with no real rationale for
| people outside of it. Meaning, they have zero chance to get
| A even if he gives out super detailed instructions. Because
| he is asking them too much.
|
| He is not giving them As on purpose. He made grading system
| that ensures it.
| dudul wrote:
| How is that bullying? That sounds like a pretty good process
| to me.
| nkrisc wrote:
| In what world is this bullying?
|
| > I return their essays with dozens of comments in the
| margins, a graded rubric, and a paragraph of instructions on
| how they should improve their work.
|
| Has the word "bullying" lost all meaning?
| lr4444lr wrote:
| >As a rule Chinese students are more attentive and less
| rebellious than their American counterparts.
|
| As an American who's taught both native born American students
| and recent Chinese immigrants, I confirm this is true, much to
| the embarrassment of my national pride.
| keybored wrote:
| National pride? One could just frame this as American students
| teenagers being more independent-minded... and more rebellious
| (the last part can be both a compliment and not).
| rblatz wrote:
| If you look at the opposite of rebellious as conformist both
| have negative connotations, and I think in general American
| culture values at least in theory rebelliousness over
| conformity, even if in practice there is a strong conformist
| push from those in charge.
| dmz73 wrote:
| Looking from outside the US and basing my opinion on news,
| movies and comments in forums like these, I see there is an
| enormous conformist push from all levels of society
| (school, work, religion, military, gangs, culture,
| politics), much more so than in most other western
| countries. Granted, that could be just my impression due to
| prevalence of US culture on the internet and in every day
| life, and all countries (western and other) might have
| similar levels of conformist push but it is the US that
| prides itself on individualism so the level of conformity
| just stands out more.
| HPsquared wrote:
| It could also be a selection thing though, you'd have to
| compare "typical American students in a typical American school
| environment" to "typical Chinese students in a typical Chinese
| school environment".
|
| Still probably _quite_ different, but maybe more similar than
| looking at Chinese emigres vs typical "US average".
| alephnerd wrote:
| I'd second OP's opinion as a 1.5 Gen.
|
| Immigrant parents (Asian, Latino, Eastern European, African)
| in America will push their kids harder because when you're an
| immigrant, a mistake like getting suspended in school or a
| DUI can destroy any chance at naturalization because you need
| to establish "Good Moral Character" [0] which is largely at
| the discretion of the presiding interviewer and a backlogged
| USCIS Immigration Judge
|
| [0] - https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-d-
| chapter...
| waveBidder wrote:
| the original article is talking about native Chinese in
| China, though the fact that they're attending a school with
| an english teacher from America is also a strong filter
| alephnerd wrote:
| I'm talking about lr4444lr's comment
| watwut wrote:
| The article characterizes them as elite students, so you
| then need to compare them to elite American students.
| Elite as in highly performing in school and motivated.
| em500 wrote:
| True, the author is teaching at an elite Beijing high
| school. But elite American high schools are usually
| disproportionally populated with Asian (an very often
| Chinese) students.
| ummonk wrote:
| I believe there are studies that show even East Asian origin
| babies are less active and more docile than white babies.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Why would you ever expect the opposite, i.e. American students
| of adventurous, New World colonizing and even Wild West
| background, to be less rebellous than Chinese students with a
| family history of 50 generations of tending to a rice field?
|
| Not saying either of these options is wrong, and even hinting
| that the former may perform comparatively better in real life
| than their test scores suggest. After all, their ancestors
| survived.
| green_goober wrote:
| This is really reductive to the point of being actually
| harmful when trying to understand the culture difference.
|
| > a family history of 50 generations of tending to a rice
| field?
|
| While yes, I am sure that there are many peasant people who
| have a "don't rock the boat" mindset, this is totally
| ignorant to the fact that China in the last two centuries
| alone was:
|
| Invaded by Japan, invaded by every European colonial power,
| had a communist revolution, underwent massive
| industrialization, had the cultural revolution (that sort of
| kills the "docile student" narrative by itself), had multiple
| civil wars, fought in the Korean and Vietnam wars, fought
| against Russia, and recently in the last 40 years has opened
| up to international trade and market economies.
|
| Compare the life stories of Donald Trump and Xi Xinping.
| Which of the two seems more adventurous? I'm not even trying
| to say one culture is better or worse, I am just trying to
| point out that your historical synopsis is not accurate and
| is really oversimplifying things.
| genman wrote:
| The important is not what changes but what remains
| constant.
| green_goober wrote:
| Really? Wouldn't a better argument be that Americans have
| experienced constant positive social progress and
| stability, which reinforces the American mindset that
| "change is good". Whereas China has undergone nearly two
| centuries of instability, reinforcing the mindset that
| "stability is more important than pursuit of an ideal"?
|
| I still don't even think that this is a super useful
| model because it is also reductive. But my point is just
| that you shouldn't paint broad brush strokes with bad
| history to find a reason for something. It's actually
| counter-productive. You can find post-hoc rationalization
| for anything. It doesn't make you right.
| genman wrote:
| It is not this simple and you missed my point (I can't
| blame you).
|
| It is about personal traits after all. The question is,
| what personal trait remains constant under the change?
|
| As you can see from the above: Chinese and American
| students reacted very differently to a change (a
| difficult study exercise).
|
| In principle this contradicts your claim that Americans
| embrace any change - not at all.
|
| Why different groups of people react differently to the
| change applied to them? It can be that they have
| different cultural memory about what is the outcome of a
| personal stand.
| green_goober wrote:
| I _get_ your point, but your entire point is just built
| on speculation.
|
| > As you can see from the above: Chinese and American
| students reacted very differently to a change (a
| difficult study exercise).
|
| This is one framing. Another framing is that they have
| deference to authority. My hypothesis from the last post
| is not testable, it's just a narrative. It's not true.
| That was my point. You can frame history in whatever
| narrative makes you feel good but it's not scientific or
| true.
|
| > Why different groups of people react differently to the
| change applied to them? It can be that they have
| different cultural memory about what is the outcome of a
| personal stand.
|
| Your average Chinese student is more likely to have
| immediate family members who participated in
| revolutionary activity than just "being rice farmers".
| Whereas your average American is not very likely to have
| ancestors who participated in revolutionary activity
| (much less cowboys or adventurers). I am trying to
| illustrate that your initial assumption (Americans are
| always pushing boundaries, and the Chinese just live
| quiet lives) is totally inaccurate when taking into
| account which of the two countries has had more
| instability over the last two centuries. So in the
| "cultural memory" wouldn't Americans be the ones who are
| used to peaceful and stable lives?
|
| Your point fails on another level, which is that both the
| rice farmer and cowboy example are stereotypes that serve
| to find an example without any serious analysis. It's a
| nice hand-wavy explanation that doesn't pass a quick
| smell test an also doesn't encourage the people who buy
| into the explanation to investigate any further.
|
| I am saying that just because this explanation makes
| sense to you doesn't mean that it is correct.
| watwut wrote:
| You picked national myth of America and compared it to a
| stereotype of poor Chinese person.
|
| As in, neither is accurate characterisation of stuff that
| happened in the past or culture of a place right now.
| genman wrote:
| It's not a bug, it's a feature.
| genman wrote:
| I would argue that methods presented here will make learning
| very engaging regardless of cultural backgrounds as these
| learning methods value highly individual effort.
| bsder wrote:
| Why would you pick the "Iliad" though?
|
| 1) The "Odyssey" is more interesting and _far_ more often
| referenced in arts and culture.
|
| 2) It's not an English book so you are going to suffer from
| double the translation misfires (Greek -> English -> Chinese).
|
| There are lots of choices for literature in English that are just
| as or even more important than the "Iliad".
| birdofhermes wrote:
| Folks have been translating Homer for centuries, any modern
| translation is going to be adequate.
| OldGuyInTheClub wrote:
| I agree on both counts. I could never finish the Iliad. No
| matter the translation, it can never overcome the catalog of
| horrors.
|
| Whenever I see "scholar" in a sitename I go on alert. The About
| page confirms it in this case.
| watwut wrote:
| Reading articles author did not asked students to read it
| all. They read sections, wrote essays on topics that show up
| in poem etc. The poem was basis on which other stuff was
| taught - like American style essay writing.
|
| Author spent roughly a year preparing the seminar.
| kaycebasques wrote:
| > Why, my Chinese students asked, will we read this? Because you
| need to prepare for American university classes, I replied. But
| more importantly: because this book might just change your life!
| I said this without apology or awkwardness. I believed it!
| Ultimately, if a great work of history and literature does not
| have the potential to change a student's life, to shape their
| character or transform their worldview, there is no point in
| teaching it!
|
| Love the boldness and clarity here. Whenever a classic movie is
| showing in the theaters that my wife has not seen, I tell her "we
| gotta watch this." It's not that I even enjoy or think of these
| movies as my favorites. It's that there is something in the movie
| that might stick with her and change her (and me).
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Does this not apply to any film?
| lolinder wrote:
| The day after watching The Last Jedi in theaters people asked
| me and my wife how we liked it. There was an awkward pause as
| both of us simultaneously realized that we barely remembered
| anything from the movie--the only response we could give was
| that it was forgettable.
|
| So, if "it's weird that I didn't remember it at all one day
| later" counts as something that sticks with me and changes
| me, then yeah, I guess so?
| thfuran wrote:
| The main thing I remember from the Iliad is how boring the
| listing of the ships was.
| senderista wrote:
| If you're trying to reconstruct the Mycenaean Greek world
| from very paltry contemporary sources it's fascinating.
| lolinder wrote:
| And meanwhile my wife and I have three Iliad translations
| on our shelf, which come down regularly as part of
| everyday conversation. If you last read it as a teenager
| it would be worth trying again--Emily Wilson's is very
| accessible!
| ryandrake wrote:
| Nice observation. kind of off-topic for an article on
| literature, but I've been trying to put my finger on what's
| been so wrong with movies and TV lately, and I think you've
| nailed it: It's that there really aren't many that are
| memorable anymore. I've watched a bunch of new movies in
| the last few years, and more and more often, I sit there an
| hour later and think "I can't remember anything all that
| interesting happening in the movie." I mean, there was
| action and conflict, protagonists and antagonists, and I
| can tell you the movie's genre and describe a few of the
| characters. But the dialog was bland and mumbly, the
| cinematography was all gray and washed out, the setting was
| kind of standard for that sort of movie, there were no
| interesting character arcs or twists, and it all kind of
| played out exactly as you'd expect a movie like that to
| play out.
|
| Willing to consider that maybe it's just old age and
| cognitive decline, but I feel something is just off about a
| lot of recent movies.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| The mainstream trash of today is just as forgettable as
| the mainstream trash of yesterday.
| yterdy wrote:
| I dunno. Everything, Everywhere, All At Once was widely
| praised, and I saw it twice in theaters; and while I can
| remember a few key moments, I couldn't tell you the full
| plot from beginning to end. I still feel like I took
| something away from the experience of watching it
| (particularly the second time, with my mother). I'm
| beginning to think that there is an overemphasis on the
| breaking-down, atomizing, and overanalysis of fictional
| works. There's a place for that, of course, and such
| endeavors can bring you great insight. But maybe a work
| is an experience unto itself. You can take away something
| useful and meaningful from just being there and engaging
| with it as a viewer and reader as it streams through your
| sensory experience, and sitting with the emotions it
| brings afterwards. If that aspect of it didn't matter -
| wasn't of principal importance, even - wouldn't you be
| better off just saving time by reading Cliff's
| Notes/watching CinemaSins/a Youtube Essay, where the
| Important Parts are chopped up and fed to you in a most
| palatable manner?
| vkou wrote:
| EEAAO is a gish-gallop of sensory overload, but it made
| me think about films, the meta-narrative behind it, etc.
| usui wrote:
| In 2022, it seemed like every Asian American raved about
| how good the movie is, just like when Crazy Rich Asians
| came out in 2018. I believe I'm in the target demographic
| for Everything Everywhere All at Once.
|
| I fell asleep halfway through the movie and I tried my
| best to stay awake, even after my friends woke me up. The
| most interesting parts of the movie existed in the real-
| world plot but the movie kept running away from it. Even
| then, all universes (real-world included) had cringe-
| worthy levels of cliche metanarrative. It was a chore to
| make it to the end.
|
| It's even worse that any criticism of the movie was
| actively shut down and nothing negative about it could be
| found online. If you did find a shred of criticism,
| viewers either accused you of ignorance, unappreciative
| of art, or racism.
|
| I liked the actors playing the parents. I thought
| Stephanie Hsu and Ke Huy Quan were good in the real-life
| scenes.
| Prcmaker wrote:
| There's been a tremendous amount of media produced in the
| decades since recording film became simple. While the
| amount of trash produced may have changed one way or the
| other, the trash gets forgotten. It's easy to look back
| on a time where an iconic series was produced, say MASH,
| but forget Mobile One was of the same era.
|
| I find the same to be true regardless of topic, the cars
| or tools of decades past that have survived often have
| great reputations, because they were built to survive.
| Those that weren't, have been forgotten.
| bnralt wrote:
| Yeah, but people often don't remember or aren't moved by
| classics as well. The response is usually to lament their
| lack of attention span, or tell them that they didn't get
| it.
|
| It ends up becoming an example of The Emperor's New
| clothes, where it's been decided ahead of time that if a
| layman disagrees, it's merely a sign of ignorance.
| boppo1 wrote:
| I think it's that people often aren't presented classics
| in the right context. I LOVED Moby Dick, but it's because
| I played Dishonored and wanted more of the whaling theme.
|
| But if I had to read it for school? I would have hated
| it.
| daseiner1 wrote:
| Just as common in my experience is the layman deciding
| ahead of time that some classic "isn't for them".
| boppo1 wrote:
| When people ask me about The Rise of Skywalker I tell them
| it was fucking awesome. It had:
|
| - mecha-zombie palpatine
|
| - a daft-punk sniper lady
|
| - a crazy sith-goth-senate
|
| - lightsaber fight on some craggy rocks in the water
|
| - a big bad spaceship (I think)
|
| All you need to really appreciate the genius of the film is
| to day-drink 2/3 a bottle of single malt then nurse a
| double of black label during the movie to keep the buzz
| going.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Ok, but that's just a bad film...
| lolinder wrote:
| Right, but your question was:
|
| > Does this not apply to any film?
|
| Most films are bad, so "any film" definitely includes bad
| films.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Consider yourself lucky. The Star Wars movie for folks that
| hate it. When the preferred agenda finally landed on me I
| got angry.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| yes, but the likelihood of it being life changing increases
| as you watch older movies that have been filtered by time
| over many suggestions by word-of-mouth.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| I mean, not if you actually try to watch good films.
| Meerax wrote:
| Any movie (or generally any artistic creation) can change the
| audience. But Snakes on a Plane might not hit the same as say
| The Wages of Fear.
|
| Wikis for those not familiar
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Fear
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_on_a_Plane
| pstuart wrote:
| Wages of Fear now added to my "one of these days" list.
| Thank you!
| wfleming wrote:
| Sorcerer (1977) directed by William Friedkin (known for
| The Exorcist and The French Connection) is adapted from
| the same novel and is also great.
| genghisjahn wrote:
| I saw Sorcerer on the big screen a month ago in Philly.
| Amazing. Made me wonder what I've been watching for the
| last 20 years.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| These two films are completely dissimilar in their
| ambitions and the distinction between them has nothing to
| do with the merits of "a classic"
| late2part wrote:
| Look at Mr. Movie Critic here - next you'll tell me
| there's no moral lesson in Pulp Fiction?
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Snakes on a Plane is, allegorically, a retelling of The
| Odyssey. (Drugs recommended)
| coldtea wrote:
| No. It doesn't apply "equally" to the Ant-Man 3 and Citizen
| Kane.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Sure. But the reason it doesn't apply "equally" is not
| because citizen Kane is a classic, but because ant man 3 is
| mainstream blockbuster trash. People who frame marvel as
| the height of films today are just so... intellectually
| lazy.
|
| I've shown quite a few people citizen Kane and, aside from
| a musing discomfort at the parallels of post modern trump
| like media manipulation (FRAUD), it really doesn't resonate
| with people nearly as much as, say, Parasite, despite them
| probably being culturally closer to Kane.
|
| Tl;dr if you're going to show someone a "life changing
| film" pick something new that is similarly ambitious.
| Classics require too much effort to enjoy. It often doesn't
| work.
| allturtles wrote:
| Well I think citizen kane is powerful and parasite is
| terrible. So what have we proved? Taste is indisputable,
| I guess.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| If taste is indisputable then appealing to classics as a
| must watch cohort makes even less sense
| allturtles wrote:
| I was responding to your tl;dr not the GPs point. I think
| people who love Citizen Kane should encourage other
| people to try it, and people who love Parasite should
| encourage other people to try it, and we shouldn't make
| broad pre-judgements like "because you are younger than X
| years you won't like this movie that's more than Y years
| old." Obviously if we know someone else's _particular_
| taste we might be able to guess that they will strongly
| like or dislike a _particular_ movie (e.g. my mom
| dislikes any violence, she would hate Parasite).
| jncfhnb wrote:
| Sure, great. That's yet another argument for not putting
| "classics" on a pedestal as the "best" movies.
| coldtea wrote:
| Well, classics and "the best movies" is pretty much
| synonymous: the classics are what are considered the best
| movies.
| coldtea wrote:
| Well, I, for one, dispute personal taste.
|
| Taste needs to be cultivated.
|
| Even if two people with cultivated tastes don't agree on
| everything (or anything), their opinions on say movies or
| music are worth more than some guy's who just "likes what
| he likes" and never really got into exploring that space
| any deeper.
| pests wrote:
| Not everyone watchs a film for intellectual pursuits,
| some just want to enjoy a story or relax and unwind.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| That's great. And if that's what you want I think "the
| classics" are generally not a good choice for the vast
| majority of people.
| coldtea wrote:
| Well, then they're wrong, and should change their ways,
| similar to someone who just eats fast food because
| "that's what they like, they don't want to be challenged
| by food".
|
| I prefer to be a little more provocative than going with
| the conventional wisdom and just saying: "well, more
| power to them".
|
| They need to put in the work to get that increased power
| :)
| yterdy wrote:
| The MCU _was_ the height of films because it managed to
| wrangle more than half-a-century of comic book lore (much
| of it previously deemed unfilmable) into a coherent and
| compelling multi-film epic that was both entertaining and
| (lightly) philosphical and political. Through Endgame, it
| was an unprecedented undertaking involving the hard work
| of tens (hundreds?) of thousands of talented artists and
| technicians across the globe, marshalling untold
| resources over the span of a decade. And they actually
| _pulled it off_ , producing a series of critical and
| commercial blockbusters that form (more or less) a
| single, sprawling narrative. It's unlikely we'll ever see
| anything like it again in our lifetimes.
|
| The day when the project would lose its luster was always
| coming - as anyone who knows the history of Hollywood
| westerns and action flicks and blaxploitation could tell
| you - and you may gloat now that it's arrived. However,
| for a shining moment, literally billions of people had
| something special to share, and no amount of elitist
| posturing can take away from it.
|
| (Citizen Kane's cool, too, of course. Gave us that clap
| meme and a baller Simpson's episode.)
| coldtea wrote:
| > _The MCU was the height of films because it managed to
| wrangle more than half-a-century of comic book lore (much
| of it previously deemed unfilmable) into a coherent and
| compelling multi-film epic that was both entertaining and
| (lightly) philosphical and political._
|
| That's more of a parlor trick than art. "See how much
| simplistic comic book storytelling randomness I can fit
| in 30+ movies, and even live room for 70% of it be
| explosions and fight scenes".
|
| > _it was an unprecedented undertaking involving the hard
| work of tens (hundreds?) of thousands of talented artists
| and technicians across the globe_
|
| "Talented" is begging the question.
|
| IMNSHO, not only is the writing, acting, and directing
| mediocre by-the-numbers blockbuster crap, but even what
| they supposedly do best (the special effects and fights
| and such) are shodilly made.
|
| There are movies made from comics that are worth a damn
| cinematically (Logan, Sin City, Watchmen, Constantine)
| but 99% of MCU is not in that set.
| coldtea wrote:
| The question was "doesn't that [quality, to be able to
| stay with you and change you] apply to every film?"
|
| And my answer is: not exactly, it applies best to movies
| that are not "mainstream blockbuster trash".
|
| I'm pretty sure we can find some people for which some of
| the 200 movies in the Avengers franchize resonated with
| them and changed their life. Especially since billions
| saw them (and unprobable events will tend to happen as
| the sample size grows). After all, Hallmark movies also
| resonate with many people. And in the right conditions,
| say our dog just died, they can make even the more
| cynical of us cry.
|
| But generally, better movies have that quality more. This
| is what makes the better in the first place: touching on
| some essential aspect of humanity in a non-trite way.
| Doesn't have to be classics as in "old movies favored by
| critics", just generally movies made with more vision,
| integrity, and core message than "look 2 hours of
| explosions and fancy effects mixed with reshased cookie
| cutter dialog", or "look at these two cute young people
| fall in love, have a falling out, and getting back
| again") will tend to resonate with people more deeply and
| in more nuanced ways.
| grujicd wrote:
| I never liked Citizen Kane that much. Direction,
| cinematography, camera angles were inovative for that
| time and I can understand why it's important from
| historical perspective. But the story leaves me cold. On
| the other hand, 12 Angry Men or Casablanca are
| masterpieces in my eyes.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| Ant-Man 3 definitely wins in the special effects
| department. Orson Welles could have spent a little bit more
| of the budget on explosions.
| kjellsbells wrote:
| Then again, the three minute, single shot sequence that
| leads up to an explosion in his A Touch of Evil is more
| riveting to me than anything in the Marvel universe.
|
| https://youtu.be/EhmYY5ZMXOY?feature=shared
| karaterobot wrote:
| It does in theory, but passing through many layers of
| curation and standing up to the tests of time increases the
| likelihood of classics being more successful compared to a
| randomly sampled movie. Not that wild of an idea.
| ZoomZoomZoom wrote:
| Good news, postmodernism is overcome, you don't have to ask
| questions like this anymore!
| actionfromafar wrote:
| That's a very postmodern take.
| genman wrote:
| I completely get your point. Still I would advise to be
| careful. Movies don't follow the same scrutiny than say,
| academic papers. Deliberate inaccuracies are common. Obviously,
| of course. Why I'm saying this then? First it can of course
| create a false understanding of the past events (if of course
| the movie was set into some historical context). This by itself
| might be not dangerous, but it may lead to drawing completely
| wrong conclusions. What requires even more care is a deliberate
| psychological manipulations by the director to bypass critical
| rational thinking. As it is with every content, I ask three
| most important questions: what? who? why? What is exactly
| showed to me? Who is showing it to me? Why is it showed to me?
| KaiserPro wrote:
| What would be the Chinese equivalent of the illiad be? (well
| equivalents, there are going to be more than one)
| j7ake wrote:
| Journey to the west.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West
| optimalsolver wrote:
| Isn't that the Chinese equivalent of the Odyssey?
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| I was looking for this comment just to give it a +1. Journey
| to the West has had a massive cultural impact and it's
| delightful to see where a lot of those memes originated. Fans
| of modern fantasy will feel right at home.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Water Margin? Journey West? Romance of the Three Kingdoms?
| squaresmile wrote:
| And Dream of the Red Chamber to round up the four great
| Chinese classical novels
| tmtvl wrote:
| And to round off the six most beloved, The Plum in the
| Golden Vase (Jin Ping Mei), and The Scholars (AKA
| Unofficial History of the Scholars).
| dash2 wrote:
| Can you recommend any good one-volume translations of those?
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Nope! I have to profess, as an American, my primary
| exposure to the three aforementioned novels has been
| filtered through Japanese adaptions (e.g. the Romance of
| the Three Kingdoms videogames, Suikoden, Dragon Ball,
| Dynasty Warriors, etc.). I think it would be great for
| China to take a stab at adapting the stories for an
| international audience as a game/movie/TV series.
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| Dunno, but Monkey ('Journey to the West') by Wu Cheng'en was a
| great book as I remember. Wish I had time to read it again.
| generic92034 wrote:
| That baffles me. Why do you think you do not have the time?
| Certainly, if reading the book again is important enough for
| you, you could lower the priority of some other
| occupation/task/...?
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| There are many books I want to read, and even more things I
| want to do. Then there are things I _need_ to do like pay
| the rent.
| feverzsj wrote:
| I don't think there is anything close to epic poems for Han
| Chinese. Though China government claims Gesar of Tibet, Jangar
| of Mongol and Manas of Kyrgyz, are the three epic poems of
| China.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| True, but some of the commentaries to the Spring and Autumn
| Annals are written in a highly refined style that one could
| describe as akin to poetry, especially the Zuo Zhuan. Of
| course this is better described as history rather than epic,
| but the two genres share similar goals especially for the
| period.
| Leary wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Poetry
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Documents
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Rites
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_and_Autumn_Annals
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuo_Zhuan
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Records_of_the_Grand_Historian
| rKarpinski wrote:
| Romance of the Three Kingdoms
|
| It's about a multi-decade civil war almost 2 thousand years ago
| & is the oldest of their classic novels and the characters are
| all household names.
|
| And many similar character types ... Diaochan <> Hellen, Lu Bu
| <> Achilles, Zhuge Liang <> Odysseus etc.
| boppo1 wrote:
| Best translation?
| tmtvl wrote:
| Moss Roberts' unabridged version is the one you want.
| RheingoldRiver wrote:
| Moss Roberts, and it's not even a question.
|
| It's very dense though and there's like a billion names to
| keep track of, I only made it through the first ~1/3 of the
| first volume (out of 4) before I had to give up. I want to
| revisit one day but I would need some sort of reading guide
| to follow along with that lets me look up all the character
| names and who is on which side etc.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I sometimes find it difficult to keep track of all the
| names in a science fiction book when they're in some
| invented language (wads Acenta the good one, or Arinca?).
| It's easy when they have English or English-ish names.
|
| The same happens when reading a book with Chinese names.
|
| An ebook that coloured the names according to their side
| might help.
| Onavo wrote:
| The anime version of Journey to the West is decent (but it
| takes great liberties with the plot and is heavily
| abridged)
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball
| nozzlegear wrote:
| I think there's a Total War (video game) series based on the
| Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I can't say how accurately it
| sticks to the story, as I've never read the Romance nor
| played the games [1], but it might be worth looking into if
| you're into video games.
|
| [1] I simply watched an avid Three Kingdoms fan playing the
| campaign on YouTube a few years ago as some background noise.
| rKarpinski wrote:
| There is but it's just the setting/characters it doesn't
| attempt to tell the story. In the same way a game of
| Diplomacy isn't going to recreate WW1.
| lvl102 wrote:
| The Iliad is the first book I read cover to cover. At 15. I hated
| reading fictions growing up and just got away reading cliff notes
| during middle school. The book changed my life not because I
| learned anything from the texts but I learned the merits of
| reading something cover to cover without taking shortcuts.
|
| I also learned that some people can recite the entire book from
| memory which was my first realization of "100x" myth.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > I also learned that some people can recite the entire book
| from memory which was my first realization of "100x" myth.
|
| I don't know about memorising translations, but the Iliad was
| composed specifically so it could be memorised, and it was long
| repeated (even in competition form!) before it was ever written
| down. The Greek original follows a strict dactylic hexameter
| with rhymes and other tricks to make it easier to memorize.
|
| It's crazy to think in a world of writing that back then people
| memorised entire books/songs/poems like the Iliad instead of
| simply reading a copy. It makes sense, in a way; copying such a
| long text would take ages, especially with writing implements
| at the time, but I'm still amazed by the dedication these
| ancient people had.
| bitwize wrote:
| I've always found it fascinating how the Polynesians kept
| records of their families' history. Each family has a song,
| taught from one generation to the next. Each generation gets
| to add their exploits as a verse to the song, which can grow
| very long yet must still be memorized, recited, and taught to
| one's children.
| int_19h wrote:
| And you have to have writing to begin with...
|
| Consider also the degree of investment this requires from
| society as a whole. To learn to recite large works from
| memory like that pretty much requires a person who dedicates
| their life entirely to the craft (excluding other productive
| work), not just learning the techniques and the stories
| themselves, but also eventually teaching others to carry on.
| These are all extra mouths to feed by the rest, and yet some
| form of it was historically extremely widespread in pre-
| literate societies. It just goes to show how important
| stories and generational memory are to us as species.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Is it actually true that it requires so much time? Eg do
| you see it today with Bedouin tribesmen memorising their
| many epic poems? I would have assumed the transfer would
| happen, for example, when the 'productive work' to be done
| is 'sitting around watching over the animals in the
| evening'.
|
| Certainly it is true that the ancient Greeks had
| professional performers, but I'm not sure that's necessary.
| hopw_roewur_ne wrote:
| There are some tricks like stock phrases that often take up
| half a line, but rhyme is not among them. Epic poetry wasn't
| written to rhyme.
| lnauta wrote:
| Last summer I read a translation that tries to keep the rhyme
| and rythm. For parts I just got enchanted and kept reading
| and reading way longer than normal for me. How great it would
| be to hear this from someone who memorised it.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Odyssey is a better and more relatable story
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| Didn't have time to read it but listened via LibriVox. It's a
| story of a violent age where thuggery ruled. Women were at the
| mercy of men (E.g. Penelope having to just about control a
| bunch of 'suitors').
|
| I can't find it at the moment but IIRC Odysseus and his men put
| in at a port at a village, put all the men there to the sword
| and taje the women for slaves, sex and bounty. You get the
| picture. Scratch the surface and it gets ugly.
|
| (Fascinating read nonetheless)
| jhanschoo wrote:
| They are... different stories. The course invited the students
| to imagine when the Greeks were so obsessed with honor (just as
| we might be, say, so obsessed with riches), and how it
| nevertheless manifests in places in modern society. There is a
| value to that exercise.
|
| Also likely because it might have been one of few books
| accepted for a standard qualification.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| (2021)
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| So, no discussion of the fact that Achilles and Patroclus and the
| Iliad in general is a gay, homo, LGBT, western, decadent love
| story? Did none of the kids notice this?
|
| It's gay enough that scholars have fought bitterly on if it was
| really gay or not. It's worth noting that the classical greeks
| (including Plato) were sure it was gay:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_and_Patroclus
|
| Moreover, I also think that it's worth bringing up the fact that
| for awhile, one of the most elite military units in the greek
| world were "150 pairs of male lovers" -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
| lolinder wrote:
| Scholars may have fought bitterly over whether the relationship
| between them was sexual (it undoubtedly was), but words like
| "gay" and "homo" and "LGBT" are completely anachronistic in an
| ancient Greek context. Greek sexual norms were completely
| unlike our modern ones in many ways, some of which make most
| people in the modern West uncomfortable, including the LGBT
| community.
|
| For example, take the Sacred Band of Thebes:
|
| > It was composed of 150 male couples, each pair consisting of
| an older erastes (erastes, "lover") and a younger eromenos
| (eromenos, "beloved").
|
| That second word--eromenos--is deeply tied to pederasty, which
| is something that neither the LGBT community nor conservatives
| want to talk about. Greek writers describe relationships with
| an eromenos as often starting at about 13 years old.
|
| I think the instinct to distance the modern LGBT community from
| the ancient Greeks is well placed. It's a rhetorical minefield
| that allies would be better off avoiding.
| genman wrote:
| I have to point out that the terminology used here is not
| universally understood in different cultures and the
| difference is not at all subtle.
| rKarpinski wrote:
| Strong take given the opening scene of the Iliad is Achilles
| raging about Agamemnon stealing his girl
| int_19h wrote:
| A heterosexual relationship with another person does not
| preclude the one GP is talking about from being homosexual.
|
| Greeks themselves didn't really think about it in these
| terms, anyway. It was completely normal, and in some social
| contexts even expected, for a man to have sex with another
| man, and then go on to marry and have children.
| rKarpinski wrote:
| I didn't preclude anything. This is a strong take...
|
| > the Iliad in general is a gay, homo, LGBT, western,
| decadent love story
|
| It ignores major plot points. Like the whole reason
| Achilles refuses to fight or the cause of the entire war
| mbivert wrote:
| > It's worth noting that the classical greeks (including Plato)
| were sure it was gay:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_and_Patroclus
|
| I'm not sure this is correct; the links cited by Wikipedia come
| from books about Greek homosexuality. Here's the relevant quote
| of the Symposium[0]:
|
| > [...] whereas Achilles, son of Thetis, they honored and sent
| to his place in the Isles of the Blest, because having learnt
| from his mother that he would die as surely as he slew Hector,
| but if he slew him not, would return home and end his days an
| aged man, he bravely chose to go and rescue his lover
| Patroclus, avenged him, and sought death not merely in his
| behalf but in haste to be joined with him whom death had taken.
| For this the gods so highly admired him that they gave him
| distinguished honor, since he set so great a value on his
| lover. And Aeschylu talks nonsense when he says that it was
| Achilles who was in love with Patroclus; for he excelled in
| beauty not Patroclus alone but assuredly all the other heroes,
| being still beardless and, moreover, much the younger, by
| Homer's account
|
| The word used for love/lover here is based on erastes[1], who
| besides "lover" also translates to "fan, adherent, admirer".
| The term used for "beautiful" comes from "kalos"[2], who isn't
| restricted to superficial beauty: "beautiful, lovely, good,
| quality, right, moral, virtuous, noble".
|
| Heroes admiring virtues in others, especially in this context,
| isn't far-fetched of an interpretation at all (probably less
| inciting though). There's a similar issue with Achille's
| "anger": the term used actually is IIRC closer to "wrathful",
| and only used once or so throughout the Iliad, to describe
| Zeus's behavior.
|
| [0]:
| https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...
|
| [1]:
| https://www.definify.com/word/%E1%BC%90%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%83%CF...
|
| [2]:
| https://www.definify.com/word/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%8C%CF%82...
| dsign wrote:
| I grew up in a country that defines itself as opposition to
| another ("the enemy", "the imperialism"), and everything else,
| including the lack of everything and the long blackouts, goes by
| undiscussed. Our Literature professor was a bright light in that
| world. The Iliad was the first book we read that was about what
| was it like to be a person in a distant time and a distant land.
| It was an escape and a return journey to our Mediterranean roots.
| Back then, I was as much of an avid reader as I'm now, but I
| couldn't have made any tails of the Iliad without the help of our
| teacher. May his bright soul live forever in his students.
| K0balt wrote:
| I would be very interested in the syllabus for the living well
| and the war classes. As an expat providing additional education
| to a group of youngsters, I have implemented similar classes -
| but as an amateur instructor, I'm sure yours would be better and
| more effective.
| dash2 wrote:
| This was good:
|
| "That is the second key to reaching cynical teenagers: they must
| be treated like men and women whose decisions and opinions
| matter."
| Affric wrote:
| It's obviously the key to reaching anyone but the phrasing is
| genius.
|
| Our prejudice and contempt can prevent us from even getting
| through.
| late2part wrote:
| you had me until OneDrive...
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I might have enjoyed an English class from this teacher. They
| understate the work when they say "double" the work for the way
| they grade; I seldom had any substantive comments on papers
| returned to me, and rarely did I have even an inkling of why one
| paper would receive a better grade then another.
|
| The most extreme example was when I got a paper back with a 56%
| and the only comment was "Great Job! Almost an A paper"
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Anthropologist and political scientist Alan McFarlane recorded
| many of his lectures while visiting China [0]. I really enjoyed
| some of them I found online, but it raised a hard question for
| me; outside of SOAS or Harvard, where are the visiting professors
| from China teaching Westerners some of the great stories and
| value from 5000 years of Chinese history (the stuff the CCP now
| wants to bury).
|
| [0]
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54229792-understanding-t...
|
| (sorry for low quality link, but the book is a good summary )
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