[HN Gopher] How China Built BYD
___________________________________________________________________
How China Built BYD
Author : thelastgallon
Score : 82 points
Date : 2024-02-18 16:43 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| sds357 wrote:
| https://archive.is/pVDKq
| bookofjoe wrote:
| dup: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39382472
| latchkey wrote:
| Not sure why they'd name a car after a bird that shits
| everywhere. -\\_(tsu)_/-
| iancmceachern wrote:
| Don't most birds do this? Couldn't you make this comment about
| any bird?
| latchkey wrote:
| I live at the beach, seagulls are a special breed. It is
| thought that they aim for humans too.
|
| My comment still stands.
| thriftwy wrote:
| Soviet luxury cars for big bosses were called that also:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_Chaika
|
| I guess when you don't live near the coast, seagulls have
| this romantic, sea faring, travel vibe.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I live at the coast too.
|
| I think they're remarkable. I think it's pretty cool how
| they pick up mollusks and clams and such, drop them from
| high on the rocks and sidewall to break them open to eat.
| Clever.
| yanellena wrote:
| First thing I though when I saw this brand. 'Seal', 'Dolphin',
| 'Seagull'. They should have perhaps asked a agency to brand
| these cars a little better.
| outside1234 wrote:
| Subsidies, mandates, stolen technology, no environmental laws or
| worker protections
| magic_man wrote:
| The biggest challenge is the battery which is what byd
| originally made. Electric motors have been around for a long
| time. The first cars were electric.
| robin_reala wrote:
| The first cars were steam, although electric cars were an
| important part of the overall mix when they started becoming
| more widely sold.
| demondemidi wrote:
| Tesla or BYD?
| vdaea wrote:
| No environmental laws or worker protections? Is this based on
| truth or prejudice?
|
| Subsidies and mandates are good when the EU does them but bad
| when China does them?
| google234123 wrote:
| Western companies have been basically shut out of the Chinese
| market since the beginning-even more is now. A huge trade
| imbalance should have naturally balanced itself out in a true
| free market. The fact it's been so distorted for decades
| shows how bad it is. A rebalancing must occur and will be
| good for everyone in the long run
|
| Chinese policy making has been hugely protectionist and
| interventions lost for decades.
| rodgerd wrote:
| Chicken tax.
| google234123 wrote:
| So...? Tariffs are just like subsidies or taxes, a
| transfer of money between one sector and another sector
| in the economy
| robin_reala wrote:
| Not sure that's entirely true, especially if we're talking
| cars. Volkswagen China is around 50% of VW sales, and
| Mercedes sells 40+% in China for example. If we're talking
| US cars, they're typically too focused on US market desires
| for other countries.
| google234123 wrote:
| With mandatory transfers of all technology and giving up
| 51% ownership of the forced joint ventures?
| Dunedan wrote:
| What baffles me is Tesla's paralysis compared to BYD. Wasn't
| Tesla's goal to do rapid expansion to stay on top of everybody
| else volume wise? Nowadays Giga Berlin produces way less vehicles
| than anticipated and the only new factory being planned is Giga
| Mexico, which also seems to proceed slower than expected. In
| addition while the next vehicle from Tesla will probably be a
| smaller and cheaper car, it's still at least a year before
| they'll be able to ship it. All that while Tesla seems to have
| lots cash at hand, so why don't they expand more aggressively?
| rapsey wrote:
| They have the most popular car in the world how are they
| paralyzed?
| petee wrote:
| I couldn't find a single list that had Tesla anywhere near
| #1; source?
| sidibe wrote:
| For individual models I've seen Model Y as #1. But seems
| like growth has stopped, so paralyzed is still appropriate,
| and they only have 2 models that sell significant numbers
| formerly_proven wrote:
| Most other OEMs have (way way) more than four models, so
| that kind of list doesn't really make much sense to begin
| with.
| kibwen wrote:
| The Model Y is the most popular car in the US only if you
| don't classify pickup trucks as cars. Pickup trucks
| dominate car sales in the US.
| modeless wrote:
| The Tesla Model Y was the world's best-selling vehicle in
| 2023. Hard to imagine you looked seriously and were unable
| to find that out.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y
| ein0p wrote:
| Quick search suggests BYD made 3.02 million cars in 2023.
| Tesla: 1.8M
| kurthr wrote:
| Yes, but half of BYD's cars are hybrid. Only ~1.6M are EV.
| They've also been around making batteries since 1995 and
| ICE cars since 2003.
|
| It's not like Tesla's subsidies have been small, but BYD's
| have been enormous.
| patientzero wrote:
| Sounds like a Tesla killing recipe for the existing
| automotive industry.
| ein0p wrote:
| As they should have been in both cases. For most uses EV
| is superior, and this is the only way for Chinese
| manufacturers to meaningfully tackle the broader markets
| worldwide. You can't compete with ICEs and hundreds of
| billions of dollars invested into that manufacturing
| capacity, supply chains, and know how. But you can
| entirely sidestep the whole thing. Which is what the
| Chinese are doing.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Individual model sales don't make much sense as a metric when
| makers are diversifying. The model Y has 1.2M sales for a
| total of 1.8M Tesla cars in 2023, where Toyota alone is at
| 11.2M.
| ein0p wrote:
| Perhaps they know something we don't. The news outlets won't
| shut up about EV demand "slipping". That could be because they
| don't like Musk, but it could also be real. In a post-truth
| society there's no way to know.
| green_goober wrote:
| You can always read financial reports like 10-Ks and see what
| the company says and what their number say. Numbers like that
| don't really lie.
|
| The media has never been a "source of truth" at the best they
| act as watchdogs, at the worst they are propaganda. You can
| still find answers for yourself but good information has a
| time cost.
| ein0p wrote:
| Demand is a lagging indicator, and worse, they have to plan
| well ahead for how it changes. Building multiple billion
| dollars worth of production capacity ahead of a severe
| recession would be a potentially fatal decision.
| green_goober wrote:
| You can always use leading indicators (unemployment,
| inflation) to estimate future car sales, then extrapolate
| the EV market share based on current growth numbers. It's
| not perfect but it's not like large institutions somehow
| have a crystal ball. They are likely doing the same, just
| with better models.
| dragontamer wrote:
| The only leading indicators you need in the car market
| are days of inventory and recent price actions.
|
| Tesla's have deep discounts, suggesting a decline in
| demand. The end. Inventory is harder because they lack
| dealerships, but it doesn't seem difficult to find a
| Model3/ModelY right now at all.
|
| -------
|
| For other EVs like Ford Mustang MachE, days of inventory
| are rising and prices are declining as well as
| incentives.
|
| It's not just Tesla, it's a wide group of EVs that were
| overproduced.
|
| https://caredge.com/guides/fastest-and-slowest-selling-
| cars-...
|
| Go browse some stats yourself.
| ein0p wrote:
| You're considering those metrics as though they're
| independent from APR on loans, which could easily double
| from where they are now in case we enter a recession and
| rate hikes prove ineffective. Try to sell an expensive
| car on a loan with an eye watering APR of, say 10-12%.
| This did actually happen in the past, and could very well
| happen again.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > recession
|
| You've got it backwards. Recessions cause rate-drops.
|
| > Try to sell an expensive car on a loan with eye
| watering APR of, say 10-12%. This did actually happen in
| the past, and could very well happen again.
|
| Rate-hikes cause us to lose demand. Yes. But we can see
| that Toyota demand remains strong with less than 30-days-
| of-inventory on the average.
|
| So the rate-hikes from the current Fed plan are causing
| expensive cars (like EVs) to lose demand, while cheaper,
| more-reliable ICE / Hybrid cars from Toyota are selling
| like hotcakes.
|
| Yes, I'm watching interest rates and am trying to
| understand how our economy shifts because of them. But at
| this base level, EVs are doing worse (and the stats prove
| it), while cheaper cars (namely ICE/Hybrids) are doing
| far better right now than anyone expected.
| ein0p wrote:
| Don't look at recent recessions which happened under
| almost zero rate regime. Look at the Carter era
| recession. Consider as well the cost of "printing money"
| if the rate reaches double digits, and the cost of
| refinancing the existing debt load.
| dragontamer wrote:
| You've got my wording reversed.
|
| I said: recessions cause rate-drops. Which has always
| been true. Rate-drops don't always cure recessions, but
| its one of the first moves a central bank will make to
| try to fix a recession.
|
| https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FEDFUNDS
|
| That's 2020, 2007, 2000, 1990, 1981, 1979 where a
| recession immediately caused a rate-drop.
|
| We have to go all the way back to 1974 before we had
| inflation so high that the central bank kept rates high
| even during a recession. (Dropping rates causes
| inflation, so its a balancing act). Even then, interest
| rates dropped to bring us out of the recession of 1974.
|
| After that, we have 1969, 1959, and 1957 recessions, all
| three of which caused interest rates to drop.
|
| So 9/10 times, a recession caused an immediate drop in
| interest rates. And the last 1 time (1974), the recession
| _eventually_ caused the bankers to drop rates.
|
| > Consider as well the cost of "printing money" if the
| rate reaches double digits, and the cost of refinancing
| the existing debt load.
|
| You've got it backwards. Increases rates destroy money.
| Lower-rates print money.
|
| That's why the central bank lowers rates during
| recessions, its an indirect way to print money (or
| perhaps more accurately, expand M2).
|
| Raising rates, like what we're doing today, destroys
| money (or more accurately, contracts M2). We're
| destroying money today with 5%+ interest rates because
| we've seemingly made too much in the 2020 recession /
| COVID19.
| tomcam wrote:
| Discounts seem to be $2K for a $47K Model Y long range
| picked from inventory---is that actually deep or can I
| find better deals?
| dragontamer wrote:
| https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-y/2022/
|
| > Price: The 2022 Tesla Model Y starts at $64,990. A
| Model Y Performance model starts at $67,990. Fully
| loaded, a Performance model can exceed $80,000.
|
| Is there any other car, EV or otherwise, that is seeing a
| 33%+ decline in price over the last two years?
|
| Other EVs are seeing deep shadow-discounts. I'm seeing 0%
| or 1.9% APY financing, which comes out to a few $x,000
| savings over the term of the loans. Its an interesting
| trick to reduce prices without changing the MSRP, but I'm
| perfectly aware of these games.
|
| Still, no one is doing the depth of discounts like Tesla
| is doing right now. Granted, all EV makers (Ford F150
| Lightning, Subaru Solterra, etc. etc.) have discounts of
| some kind, or at least financing-1.9% or other "shadow
| discounts". But nothing on the level of wtf 30%+ declines
| like Tesla.
| mavhc wrote:
| Tesla sell more EVs in USA than everyone else combined,
| partially because they can cut prices. Is any other
| company even making a profit selling EVs in USA?
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| The comparison is a little weird because Tesla changes
| their pricing a lot.
|
| The Model 3 price is down ~25% year over year:
|
| https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-3/2023/ (Long Range MSRP
| $45,990)
|
| https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-3/2022/ (Long Range MSRP
| $57,190)
|
| But that's still higher than its release price in 2017:
|
| https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-3/2017/ (Long Range MSRP
| $45,200)
|
| And the "target price" for this thing was supposed to be
| $30,000.
|
| It's hard to do the same comparison for the Model Y
| because it was originally released in the middle of the
| COVID supply chain problems, but notice that the year
| you're using was the high water mark. The Model Y
| Performance was $69,190 in 2022 but $61,190 in 2021:
|
| https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-y/2021/
|
| 2022 - 2023 was -32% but 2021 - 2023 was only -16.5%,
| which itself presumably had some of the supply chain
| issues priced into it.
| ein0p wrote:
| Both unemployment and inflation numbers are known to be
| fake though. They're specifically designed to make the
| government look good. One would be a fool to rely on them
| exclusively.
| green_goober wrote:
| Then I guess nothing is truly measureable and we should
| never attempt to make predictions.
| ipaddr wrote:
| If unemployment and inflation rates are politically gamed
| nothing is truly measurement?
|
| Many things can be measured. And unemployment is
| measuring something but not what it's titled suggests.
| It's measuring some group of people who qualify as
| looking for work within a specific timeframe. Someone
| looking for work for a few years is deemed to employed by
| this calculation some might question it.
|
| Changing the definition of a recession is political.
|
| That doesn't mean measurements are incorrect and
| prediction is impossible.
| green_goober wrote:
| My comment was sarcasm. OP is being a defeatist to anyone
| trying to explain that, yes, actually, you can measure
| these things. You don't need the media to spoonfeed you
| fake information.
| coliveira wrote:
| They are not totally fake, but engineered to show only
| the good parts. Like when fuel prices drop, and this
| appears in the data as huge inflation reduction, when in
| fact food and shelter prices are growing faster than
| anyone wants to admit.
| Lonestar1440 wrote:
| I don't like the "post truth" trends in politics either, but
| I don't think there was _ever_ a time when treating "news
| outlets" as "truth" was actually a good strategy. They've
| always had biases, blind spots, and agendas - just like they
| do now.
| cedilla wrote:
| Or maybe they are just fucking up since their CEO is occupied
| with other things. Or they face an uphill battle against an
| opponent that is essentially state-backed. Or it's just very
| hard to scale up a car manufacturer, even if you want to very
| hard.
|
| History shows that no company ever was as superior to its
| competition as it may seem at their height. Shit's hard yo.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| There are almost daily reports of demand falling despite
| sales still going up (just not as fast). The general public
| are being conditioned by these articles to believe sales are
| going down. Obviously someone benefits from this narrative as
| it's being pushed pretty hard.
| roncesvalles wrote:
| If I had to gander a guess, most of people who were going to
| buy an EV have already bought one, and a certain percentage
| of the market will always be impenetrable so long as charging
| a car battery is more inconvenient than filling up a gas
| tank.
| Tostino wrote:
| Far from the truth. I have been building PEVs since I was
| in my teens (ebikes, scooters, a boat). When it came to buy
| a new car for the first time in my life in 2020, there were
| no EV options that would do what I needed (large cargo
| capacity, 6+ seats, not extremely expensive, decent range
| for road trips).
|
| Sorry, I'm not spending 100k on a vehicle.
|
| So I ended up getting a Palisade for around 32k, and my
| wife and I share that, at least until until better (and
| cheaper) EV options appear.
|
| Luckily I can use my ebike for most of my around town
| travel, and that is way less of a carbon footprint than
| adding an extra vehicle to the roads.
| rstuart4133 wrote:
| That would be a very game guess, given up until last year
| EV sales look to be rising quadratically or better.
| https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/electric-
| car-...
|
| It's more likely EV sales are driven by cost. They have
| always been more expensive than ICE cars, so they only
| eaten into the luxury market up until now so the rises you
| see are increasingly bigger bites out of the luxury market.
| But the primary cost is batteries, and a blip during COVID
| aside the cost of batteries has dropped every year. EV are
| approaching the cost of ICE cars now, if you include a bit
| of hand waving about maintenance costs.
|
| Once they cross cost threshold and drop below the cost of
| ICE cars, that quadratic curve will go exponential for a
| while. Chargers will spring up like weeds, because you can
| make money out of them and they cost far, far less to build
| and run than a gas station.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I recently bought an EV and it's obvious that they still have
| some significant downsides: expensive up front and poor
| public charging situation, mostly.
|
| The ID4 we got is very comfortable to drive around in, but
| doing a road trip in Winter feels out of the question. Not
| that it'd be completely impossible, mind, but I'm pretty
| confident it'd be a pain in the ass. We'd need to stop more
| frequently than in our CRV, for a longer period of time each
| time, and the whole situation with electric car chargers are
| that sometimes they're broken or working worse than expected,
| or they're all taken (and it takes way long for a spot to be
| freed up than at a gas station), or there's problems with the
| software running the charger, etc.
|
| It'd also be nice if it charged faster and had more range
| too; it's not terrible on those metrics, but I wouldn't say
| it's great. Certainly not comparable at all to gas cars.
| kiba wrote:
| Most people don't do roadtrip. They just charge at home.
|
| If you drive a tesla, a supercharger stall is usually
| available. No other kind of chargers I found either work,
| or are compatible with my tesla.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Yes, this is exactly what we do.
|
| But it would be _nice_ to be able to road trip more
| easily, and 100% this is an important factor in a lot of
| people 's decisions, even if road tripping is something
| they do only infrequently.
| rayiner wrote:
| > Most people don't do roadtrip. They just charge at
| home.
|
| It's very common for Americans to drive long distances to
| visit family for holidays.
| loeg wrote:
| The median American lives within 18 miles of their mom
| and 80% within "a couple hours."[0] 55% are within an
| hour's drive of their extended family.[1] The majority of
| Americans do not drive long distances for holidays. It's
| common, but like, most people aren't doing it, which is
| congruent with GP's statement that "most people don't
| roadtrip."
|
| [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/24/upsho
| t/24up-f...
|
| [1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-
| reads/2022/05/18/more-than...
| wcfields wrote:
| Midwest especially; growing up a one day drive across the
| entire width of Illinois and Indiana to see relatives was
| a common occurrence for the holidays and our summer
| family trip.
| ein0p wrote:
| Should have bought a Tesla - they had the foresight to
| actually build their supercharger network which makes
| longer trips feasible, if not necessarily as convenient.
| But I go on long roadtrips (by which I mean longer than
| 200-250 miles) maybe once a year, if that. What you've
| described is not an issue to the vast majority of Tesla
| owners.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| My wife really disliked the Model Y we took for a test
| drive, especially the road visualization that you can't
| turn off for some reason. Can't fully blame her, the
| thing looked unstable/distracting, and making it
| impossible to turn off is a bizarre UX decision.
|
| But yes, I'm aware that Tesla has the charger situation
| handled much better.
| doctor_eval wrote:
| Does anyone know what that visualisation is about? It
| doesn't bother me, but it also doesn't help me or give me
| any useful information.
|
| If it showed me the road behind me, for example, that
| would be super useful for lane changing. But it doesn't.
|
| I have never once been able to work out what it does, and
| would love to see the map take up the whole screen, or
| maybe a list of route instructions could go there.
|
| I also noticed that the "full self driving preview"
| option seems to have disappeared (it never worked anyway,
| guessing it's because we drive on the left)
| saratogacx wrote:
| My assumption was that it was to help build confidence in
| their self-driving by always showing you what it sees no
| matter if it is control or not. It does have some effect
| in that you start to get a feeling of what situations the
| car has a good idea about the surroundings and when it
| struggles.
|
| There is probably a "it looks cool" factor that doesn't
| hurt.
|
| As far as UX options. Providing customization is old-
| school thinking these days :/
| pests wrote:
| It does show some indicators form proximity sensors.
|
| Pretty much though what the other commentor said - to
| give a visualization into the self driving for the user.
|
| When traffic cones and street signs were added to
| Autopilot - you can bet that visualization was updated to
| show it off.
|
| Same when they added stop light detection.
|
| It makes sense to me. For some, that visualization
| literally _is_ the AI, for all they know.
| doctor_eval wrote:
| Agree. I did an 6-hour/500km drive last week in my model
| 3, we had to charge once. Found a supercharger in the car
| park of the local golf course.
|
| The anxious feeling about "will the charger work/will
| there be a space" is real, but the more EVs are out
| there, the less this is going to be a problem.
|
| My petrol car could have done the trip without
| refuelling, but it would also have cost, literally, 5x
| the cost of charging in fuel.
| manmal wrote:
| Isn't the supercharger network now open to everyone? Or
| is that an EU only thing?
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I checked and no. It seems to only be some a relative few
| stations.
| opinion-is-bad wrote:
| Most OEMs have signed deals with Tesla to use their
| network in the US, but I don't believe these have yet to
| go into effect.
| coliveira wrote:
| The truth is that EVs work very well in China and parts of
| Europe because they have good public transportation, so the
| EV is used only for minor or infrequent trips. For anything
| longer they will use trains. In the US the situation is
| different, you need to use cars for major trips, which is
| not the best option if you have an EV.
| qwytw wrote:
| > longer they will use trains
|
| There isn't really any data backing up this claim.
|
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-
| news/w/e...
|
| Planes are much popular and this data seems to include
| commuters so the proportion of people travelling medium
| to long distances by train is much lower (and most
| medium/intercity travel is obviously usually done by car
| and not trains..)
|
| Amongst other significant issues (e.g. cross border
| travel) high-speed trains tend to be quite expensive, so
| unless you're travelling alone a car is usually cheaper.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| This is what I still can't comprehend about Amtrak. I
| priced out a bus trip to a few states away and it was
| <$40. Amtrak cost more than a plane ticket. Is it
| astonishingly overpriced because nobody uses it and then
| nobody uses it because it's astonishingly overpriced?
| coliveira wrote:
| Train systems require heavy government investment until
| they can (maybe) produce any profit. But the same is true
| for other transportation systems: the auto industry is
| also heavily subsidized at all levels in the US, you just
| don't hear the numbers.
| rayiner wrote:
| [delayed]
| ambichook wrote:
| you can fly several states over for $40? damn, if i were
| to fly from, say melbourne to sydney, capital cities of
| neighboring states, it'd be at minimum $150 AUD (~$100
| USD) round trip. interstate travel is way more accessible
| there huh?
| nkurz wrote:
| I think you misread him. He was said that the bus (ground
| transport) was $40, and that the train (Amtrak) was more
| than a plane. He didn't say how much the plane cost. Your
| $100 USD for a short flight is probably the low end of a
| reasonable estimate here in the US too.
| ambichook wrote:
| ah, yes i see that now, my bad :)
| Symbiote wrote:
| In Europe, yes.
|
| https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/lp/promotion/getaways
|
| That page shows me flights to Bulgaria, France and Italy
| for around EUR25.
|
| It is more like EUR50 if you aren't flexible, and more
| again if you need business-friendly times.
| to11mtm wrote:
| At least in the US, Auto demand has slipped a little bit with
| the changes to financing, some manufacturers are still being
| hesitant to offer incentives, and some dealers seem insistent
| on acting like we are still in full-on covid whiplash
| shortage mode with slimy upcharges.
|
| Sprinkle in the various reliability issues that have come up
| recently (regardless of whether they are better or worse than
| what happens to ICE vehicles)...
|
| Oh, Also, Kinda wondering what's happened to Kia/Hyundai's EV
| sales due to public perception, I still see probably as many
| of their EV's as I do GM[0]
|
| [0] It's around this order, not counting plug-in hybrids and
| M-Plates[1]: Tesla, Ford, Hyundai/GM, Rivian, Polestar,
| BMW/VW
|
| [1] M-Plate is a "Manufacturer's" License plate. Not all
| states have them, but mine does and due to where I run into a
| lot of them. Since they range between prototypes and 'company
| car' they don't count in the ranking.
| popularonion wrote:
| I take Elon at face value when he recently said "We kind of dug
| our own grave with the Cybertruck"
| iamcreasy wrote:
| It does not sound as ominous if you also include the next
| line he said.
|
| "We kind of dug our own grave with the Cybertruck. It is
| going to require immense work to reach volume production and
| be cash flow positive at a price that people can afford. It
| will take a year to 18 months before it is a significant cash
| flow contributor."
| peebeebee wrote:
| They should have just put everything on Tesla model 2. In
| Belgium everyone is excited for a 5000 EUR tax cut for EV
| vehicles below 40000 EUR. Lots of people interested in
| buying Model 3 and Model Y now. But 35000 EUR is still too
| much for the general public. If they could've released a
| model 2 for 25000-30000 EUR instead of the Cybertruck, it
| would have dominated the EV market.
| rapsey wrote:
| Tesla's are absolutely everywhere in my corner of Europe,
| which is by all metrics poorer than Belgium. Tesla is
| already dominating.
| rvnx wrote:
| Isn't it at least because it is not possible to purchase
| BYD in your country yet ?
| rapsey wrote:
| https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/best-selling-
| car...
| speedgoose wrote:
| It's very much possible to buy a BYD in Norway, yet they
| don't sell well. I don't know why BYD doesn't try harder.
| Maybe too small market to bother investing a lot, so they
| rather import a few cars at too high prices to check the
| Norway box.
|
| https://elbilstatistikk.no/
| rvnx wrote:
| Norway is (I believe?) the flagship country for Tesla, so
| it may be more difficult to pierce.
|
| I remember EV's penetration is super high there.
|
| Very cool link to see the imports!
|
| I was questioning availability of the cars, because I
| think this is the key issue for BYD.
|
| I wouldn't want to buy a car where you cannot get
| support.
|
| In Estonia for example, Tesla's are not very popular for
| that reason, because for a long time, you couldn't even
| buy them from the official website (so you had to go
| through gray imports and drive to Finland for the routine
| maintenance), it's somewhat better now.
|
| But BYD is simply unreasonably difficult to purchase, and
| if you do, then just doing a routine maintenance (or if
| you have an accident) sounds much more difficult than
| Tesla.
|
| Once they solve that distribution problem (and don't get
| under political sanctions), I think they can be really
| great cars.
| coliveira wrote:
| > Once they solve that distribution problem (and don't
| get under political sanctions
|
| That's the problem, I believe BYD will be sanctioned to
| hell in Europe (not to mention USA). They will, however,
| easily dominate on BRICS and other places outside rich
| western countries.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| When we were looking for our next EV last summer, the
| BYDs all had some weird design elements that killed the
| vibe for us one way or another.
|
| We ended up with a Renault Megane e-Tech[1], very pleased
| with it so far. Our garage was built for 1970s cars and
| can't fit the new monsters, so choice was limited.
|
| [1]: https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/megane-
| electric....
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Never grokked real market for it - all the toyota hilux
| owners? These type of cars are basically not used in
| Europe, you can sometimes see it on farms but almost never
| on the roads and general population simply doesn't buy
| them, they are not the best choice since they drive poorly
| and have high running costs, and also way too big for our
| roads and parkings.
|
| Also, legendary hilux has solid reliability in brutal
| conditions (thats why every isis in desert has them,
| ideally with some gun or rockets mounted in the back). No
| way some early 1st generation of much more expensive
| electric car will match that. You want to have that safety
| of lugging around additional fuel tank or two in jerrycans
| and refuel in a minute, instead of doing additional mental
| gymnastic re chargers.
|
| So a bad civilian car, and farmers are very price sensitive
| so not a great choice for them (now).
| cduzz wrote:
| Tesla has a history of making low volume prototypes that
| they sell to weird early adopters and then making high
| volume cars. The prototypes validate the designs without
| as much potential for a crushing warranty bill if a
| technology bet isn't great.
|
| For instance, tesla went through several varieties of
| battery chemistry in the early days of the S before
| landing on the setup they ended up sticking with for the
| model 100 and later models.
|
| The CT is a similar low volume prototype of the maxwell
| technology dry cell battery stuff, 48 volt and "drive by
| wire" architecture that is 100% novel. They're really
| better off just selling it to a smaller number of people
| until they get the bugs worked out. The stainless steel
| stuff is cute but not the hard part of the CT.
| ephemeral-life wrote:
| I think it was an attenpt at the luxury SUV market. A lot
| of rich people drive huge SUV's, the cybertruck can kinda
| be a quirkie suv. The hilux type workhorse trucks will
| never be replaced by anything electric (atleast on the
| global scale, america might have a chance with the f150
| lightning)
| panick21_ wrote:
| Its kind of funny how people digging Tesla grave when BYD rise
| is a way bigger problem for all other car companies. Tesla is
| still producing a huge amount of EV compared to everybody.
|
| Tesla strategy is to have huge factories, not many factories.
| They are not only building Giga Mexica. There is currently
| expansion of Berlin and Texas.
|
| In addition to that they have many other things and locations.
| Such as their own lithium refinement. Battery materials factory
| in Austin and stuff like that.
|
| > All that while Tesla seems to have lots cash at hand, so why
| don't they expand more aggressively?
|
| As Musk has pointed out, the real limit isn't money but the
| ability to hire experts and to manage all these complex
| projects.
| alephnerd wrote:
| BYD's battery division is an absolute gold mine like AWS is for
| Amazon.
|
| BYD is the primary battery supplier for most consumer
| electronics (you're iPhone or Macbook is using a BYD battery
| for example).
|
| Tesla doesn't have an "AWS" equivalent to subsidize it's
| automotive division, as the Solar+Grid Battery+Battery
| Management Systems divisions have much lower margins and higher
| upfront cost.
| a1o wrote:
| > BYD is the primary battery supplier for most consumer
| electronics (you're iPhone or Macbook is using a BYD battery
| for example)
|
| Hey, do you have a source for this? I am trying to find this
| information online but I am failing to find, but it sounds
| super plausible. In their own website there's not much
| information other than their batteries are used in other
| things besides cars - link to the site below
|
| https://www.bydglobal.com/cn/en/BYD_ENProductAndSolutions/Ne.
| ..
| alephnerd wrote:
| Apple's Supplier list from FY22 -
| https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-
| Supp...
| a1o wrote:
| Amazing! Thank you! Pretty cool information!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Company
|
| Somehow it wasn't in theit Wikipedia either - it mentions
| briefly something about batteries for common electronics
| but doesn't details or mentioned Apple. Anyway, thanks
| for the source!!!
| alephnerd wrote:
| Np.
|
| Most Chinese corporate information isn't going to be
| found on English Wikipedia tbh.
|
| It's an insular industry and most OEMs and VARs are
| Taiwanese, Chinese, Singaporean, Thai, or Malaysian so
| Mandarin is the preferred language as they're all owned
| by the SEA Chinese diaspora
| moneywoes wrote:
| what's the best data source?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Idk.
|
| I've grown up reading business news/trade news in the
| tech industry since I was a kid, my dad was in the
| industry, and I am as well, so all these names are common
| to me.
|
| All I can say is any long read business news you see in
| NYT or WSJ is 3-5 year behind trends.
|
| If it made it to either, it's already at the 4th-5th part
| of the Gartner Hype Cycle (which itself deserves a hype
| cycle)
| natpalmer1776 wrote:
| What information sources would you recommend for the
| industry?
| m2mdas2 wrote:
| Same. I thought that I was avoiding bubble as much
| possible. It seems that I am living in a special bubble.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| > any long read business news you see in NYT or WSJ is
| 3-5 year behind trends
|
| That bad?
|
| Sounds like a business opportunity ...
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Mandarin is the preferred language as they're all owned
| by the SEA Chinese diaspora
|
| Wouldn't the SEA Chinese diaspora be more likely to speak
| Hokkien? Or maybe Cantonese?
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I feel like you mixed up BYD and CATL.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Nope.
|
| Apple and BYD had a contract dispute around 2015-17 [0]
| though it ended up getting dismissed by the USDCNDC, but
| CATL was always targeting the Power Electronics space like
| Siemens and Hitachi while BYD cornered the rechargeable
| battery market by 2010 when Berkshire Hathaway and Samsung
| took a minority stake in them
|
| [0] - https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-
| cand-3_15-cv-04...
| tomcam wrote:
| Profile checks out ;)
|
| Do you have a blog?
| alephnerd wrote:
| Maybe. Maybe not.
| pphysch wrote:
| I heard on the grapevine that 60% of a US "Tesla gigafactory"
| is actually a Panasonic battery factory. The battery vertical
| is definitely a critical part of this story.
| alephnerd wrote:
| I've heard a similar story as well. I think the US
| factories is partially owned by Panasonic and the Shanghai
| one is partially owned by CATL.
|
| I don't think Tesla really hired any battery engineers or
| R&D either come to think of it.
|
| If they did, they would have had an R&D office in Japan or
| SK who are leaders in Battery Chemistry but I don't think
| they have a presence there at all.
|
| Most likely Tesla and Panasonic are co-sharing IP with
| Tesla taking a lead on Battery Management Software (a very
| hard problem) and Panasonic on Battery Manufacturing and
| Efficiency (an equally hard problem)
| mavhc wrote:
| Tesla acquired Hibar Systems in 2019, and Siilion in 2021
| Animats wrote:
| That's no secret. Here's the Panasonic press release from
| 2014. "According to the agreement, Tesla will prepare,
| provide and manage the land, buildings and utilities.
| Panasonic will manufacture and supply cylindrical lithium-
| ion cells and invest in the associated equipment,
| machinery, and other manufacturing tools based on their
| mutual approval. ... Tesla will take the cells and other
| components to assemble battery modules and packs."[1]
|
| Panasonic now has another cell factory in North America, in
| DeSoto, Kansas. This time, Tesla is not the landlord.
|
| A "cell" is a single unit device, and a "battery" is a
| group of connected cells. Panasonic makes cylindrical cells
| in standard dimensions. Others assemble the cells into into
| battery packs. Much of the rechargable battery industry
| works like that. Plants that make cells are mostly chemical
| plants, and some of the chemicals are corrosive, toxic, and
| flammable. Once the chemicals have been canned into a neat
| little metal can, assembly into packs is a routine
| manufacturing operation.
|
| It's possible to make integrated batteries. Classic 12 volt
| lead-acid auto batteries have six cells, producing 2 volts
| each. BYD is heavily into integrated batteries, with their
| "blade" technology. There are lots of things that can go
| wrong in integrated battery manufacturing, but if the
| process can be debugged, the density is higher and the cost
| is probably lower.
|
| [1] https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/en140731-3
| nrp wrote:
| BYD is big in the lithium ion cell and pack space for
| consumer electronics, but ATL (not CATL) has higher market
| share in most categories.
| gimmeThaBeet wrote:
| I mean is it just like, interest rates? Even if they have cash
| on hand, I'm assuming any big moves they would make are still
| really capital intensive because it's the auto industry.
|
| By stuff Tesla and Musk have said, they are expecting slowing
| sales growth, but part of that is also because they said they
| are developing a new car. But other comments have just been
| standard demand and competition.
|
| So is it just they don't think it's a good idea to keep
| expanding at past pace into uncertainty while hurdle rates got
| much higher?
| JoshTko wrote:
| A couple of main issues. In the US. Company EVs are currently
| not possible because they would be too expensive. The 7.5k IRA
| discount only applies if car and battery are manufactured in
| the USA. Tesla/panasonic is the only large scale battery
| manufacturer in the US and capacity is tapped out for existing
| models. Tesla would need to 4x this capacity to sell compact in
| the US with sufficient volume/margin. Tesla's Mexico plant will
| achieve volume production at start of 2026. Second issue Elon
| messed up. Elon assumed that he would be able to either scale
| 4680 battery production a lot faster OR FSD would have achieved
| L4 autonomy by now which would unlock 3x utility of existing
| fleet via owners lending their car to rideshare when not in
| personal use. If this happened the need for a compact vehicle
| would be in theory greatly lessened. Neither happened and Elon
| has no backup plan. Hence why he is 2-3 years behind BYD in
| developing a compact EV.
| hbarka wrote:
| I remember the time when the Nevada Gigafactory was really
| hyped up. It was supposed to dwarf even the largest Amazon
| Distribution Center and the plans were expand it to where you
| could see its octagonal shape from outer space. It was to be
| in the size of hundreds of football fields. Planes and drones
| flown by fanboys hovered over the site and posted weekly
| updates on how magnificent the progress was, like we were
| watching a modern-day pyramid endeavor. Of course, it was
| just another Musk distortion field. Today it's only at 30% of
| the fantastical plans. The stock went up though.
| letmevoteplease wrote:
| According to this list, even its current state, the Nevada
| Gigafactory has the most floorspace of any warehouse in the
| world (5.3 million ft2, followed by Boeing with 4.3 million
| ft2). Not entirely unimpressive.
|
| https://www.avantauk.com/top-14-largest-warehouses-in-the-
| wo...
| hbarka wrote:
| Tesla does impressive things but are the very definition
| of hype:
|
| Full Self Driving but really lane keeping assist L2
|
| Mother of all factories but really 30% of mother
|
| Vacuum-sealed underground tubes capable of moving people
| en mass at high speed but really a 15mph underground
| paved road for Tesla cars
|
| Linear growth of battery density but stuck on same
| chemistry
|
| Used to have radar but now disabled on cars that have it
| because vision is like the human eye don't need anything
| else
| pests wrote:
| aka we don't want to maintain the vision and radar code
| bases / theyve drifted apart so lets just work on the one
| everyone has
| hbarka wrote:
| There is no drifting apart. If so then there will be full
| regression to the minimum viable product, the low end
| Tesla. It was a conscious choice in order to save margin
| during the chip shortage post-Covid but under the pretext
| of vision is best. Radar-equipped cars used to be able to
| see through fog and heavy rain now nerfed.
| pests wrote:
| I meant they would have had two maintain the logic for
| vision and radar and new features could be developed for
| one over the other. Calling it the same thing and trying
| to support the same settings with both was increasing
| workload so they decided to just implement the lowest
| common denominator.
| tw04 wrote:
| You also forgot stomping on all of his engineers and
| designers and demanding an untenable design for the cyber
| truck. All of that wasted time and effort could've been spent
| on a smaller EV vs a truck that's going to struggle to gain
| any market share outside of Tesla loyalists.
| mavhc wrote:
| Can't make a cheap EV until you can make enough cheap
| batteries
| SR2Z wrote:
| No, that's not it. I refuse to buy a new Tesla because of
| some of the less user friendly (and IMO should be
| illegal) cost cutting measures:
|
| - Horrible QA
| (https://www.equinoxevforum.com/threads/cracks-
| developing-in-...) - Extremely customer-hostile support
| strategies (https://arstechnica.com/tech-
| policy/2023/08/angry-tesla-cust...) - Absurd cost-cutting
| measures/temporary bouts of insanity that cripple the UX
| of their cars: - Why does the Model 3/Y not have steering
| wheel stalks!? - Why did they try to offer the Model S
| with only a (bad) yoke!? - Why is there no HUD/gauge
| cluster on the Model 3/Y!?
|
| I won't even get into just how ugly I (and anecdotally,
| many of my friends) find the Cybertruck; have you SEEN
| videos of people trying to actually use it as a truck and
| it completely failing to function offroad?
|
| All of this stuff is directly attributable to Elon Musk.
| He's demanding a 25% stake in the company from his board
| - the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked
| in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out.
|
| Shareholders, at this point, should kick this guy out of
| Tesla and leave him to his true passions: shitposting on
| Twitter and SpaceX.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I agree, not only have they stopped making new sane cars,
| but they're actively making their existing cars worse!
|
| * no indicator stalks
|
| * no forward/reverse control
|
| * apparently the automatic rain sensor doesn't work/exist
| (I think that's always been true; I just learned about
| it)
|
| It very much reminds me of Apple's backwards steps with
| magsafe, touchbar and the keyboard. Maybe they'll come to
| their senses but I dunno...
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > the same board that was found to be so absurdly stacked
| in his favor that his last pay package was thrown out.
|
| It was thrown out purely on the grounds that the judge
| didn't like it. The pay package was approved by Tesla's
| non-Musk general shareholders.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Thrown out by a judge in the most corpo state on the
| country. It was so embarrassingly badly handled they
| couldn't even rubber stamp it.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| It was handled fine. If it had been badly handled, it
| would have been thrown out on those grounds. Instead, the
| grounds were "there is no reason for Elon Musk to be paid
| this much".
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| The batteries could be imported from China.
|
| Or maybe the whole car could be imported.
|
| You could have a cheap EV in America with a stroke of a
| pen. Thats kind of the point of the article. I mean maybe
| not on purpose.
| dangus wrote:
| I'm not one to be bullish on Tesla under Elon Musk but I
| don't see how the Cybertruck was a waste considering that
| it's squarely placed in the most popular and profitable
| segment of the automobile market in North America.
|
| It's almost dimensionally identical to the F-150 and the
| masculine "look at me" cyberpunk appearance is 100% in line
| with basically everything about the big three automakers'
| trucks' demographics.
|
| The only thing BYD can do differently is eat up
| unprofitable markets like the $20,000 econobox EV.
| Draiken wrote:
| BYD will have dominated the world before Tesla does
| anything at this rate.
|
| Here in Brazil, EVs basically didn't exist. Only very few
| Prius were seen around, and I mean very few.
|
| Now, BYD showed up and everywhere you go you see one. Had
| Tesla been there, the same would have happened. But they
| chose to not even try (or weren't competent enough to do
| it).
|
| BYD is doing the same in many other countries. Pretty
| soon I can see BYD being the main provider of EVs in
| multiple countries. Tesla had years of advantage and
| totally missed the opportunity to expand into those
| markets craving EVs.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > which would unlock 3x utility of existing fleet via owners
| lending their car to rideshare
|
| I still don't understand why anyone ever thought that was
| going to happen. Even if the autonomy were there, who was
| really going to use their car for rideshare when they didn't
| need it themselves? I know some people thought it would bring
| them a lot of value, because that's what Elon promised. But
| the reality would have been a classic race-to-the-bottom, and
| they'd have been lucky to break even after accounting for
| wear and tear.
| JoshTko wrote:
| It's not so much most regular people would do rideshare
| that much. It's more that every new Tesla sold after L4 was
| achieved would be bought by small biz folks, Uber, etc.
| specifically to use for rideshare and would pay a premium
| for both the car and for FSD software.
| pests wrote:
| It will be awesome when your own car pulls up at 8am to
| take you to work and there's vomit and trash everywhere,
| spilled drinks, dirty shoes, stale vape smoke lingering in
| the air.
|
| Sure there might be rules and fines but people already do
| all this when there is real human driving the taxi!
|
| Plus, do you really expect everyone to treat your items
| with the same respect and care you do? Even little things
| like slamming the doors or scratching up the seats with
| metal belts or jean studs.
|
| Yeah maybe Tesla will make it right. But at how much
| effort? How correct will it be fixed?
| mastazi wrote:
| The IRA discount only applies to the US market, where AFAIK
| BYD is not even present, right? So it doesn't really explain
| why Tesla is trailing behind BYD globally.
|
| Or maybe your point is "Tesla is not helped by its government
| as much as BYD is"? Which could be a fair point.
| pests wrote:
| Level 4 needs a driver outside of the small existing tests
| involving geofencing. I don't see how anyone would be loaning
| out their Tesla's for rideshare anytime soon.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I thought their goal was to stay on top of everyone margin
| wise. Margin is better than volume in every dimension.
| Closi wrote:
| Not always - volume is often better than margin if you are in
| a competitive market and have enough access to capital (other
| things being equal).
|
| Particularly if you are taking market share from your (higher
| margin) competitor. If you can sell two cars at half the
| margin, that _can be_ better than one car at double the
| margin if your competitor got the other sale, assuming your
| strategy is to take the market (i.e. wipe out your
| competitor).
|
| High margins tend to be hard to defend in the long run
| (without building a moat).
| coliveira wrote:
| The problem is that, in Germany and the US, Tesla costs are
| going through the roof. They can expand in China, but probably
| don't want it. They can also do it in Mexico, but won't be fast
| either.
|
| The truth is that China has, through government decision,
| created a full supply chain for EV production, mirroring their
| success in other areas. The US is several years behind them.
| Tesla can invest the money in the US to catch up, but it will
| be very costly, so probably they won't be able to do what you
| wish.
| api wrote:
| Bottom line is that private companies can't compete with
| governments. China heavily subsidizes its industries, far
| more than the US or Germany, and makes it easy for them to
| operate.
| blackoil wrote:
| Very simplistic view. US has also given billions in
| subsidies to US ev makers and protectionism. One reason
| Tesla is so big on US is China is not allowed to enter.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| BYD is nominally a private company. What you're really
| getting at is that governments can subsidize industries to
| give their domestic companies an unfair advantage, and
| China does that aggressively.
|
| Other countries could do the same thing or punish China for
| it via tariffs etc., but doing nothing seems like a bad
| idea.
| coliveira wrote:
| The US also heavily subsidizes its industries. It is just
| not done in a smart way. US money goes mainly into
| increasing profits of already rich companies, so they have
| less incentive to innovate and create new products. China
| spreads its money across the whole industry, so new
| companies will benefit and create a complete supply chain.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| A lot of Chinese money just goes to zombie SOEs, but are
| really funding some official's villa and foreign
| education for their kid. Chinese money can be just as
| dumb as American money. There were a ton of scammy EV
| companies selling basically golf carts when China first
| started subsidizing EV development and sales. It took
| around half a decade to get rid of those.
| coliveira wrote:
| Nothing is perfect, but Chinese strategy is smarter
| overall. They achieve a lot with less money.
| to11mtm wrote:
| China had cleaner way to allow corporate barnstorming as
| well, due to it's general state/status.
|
| Vehicles in china there don't have to be nearly as safe (for
| better or worse) and range anxiety is less of an issue for
| many of the residents, thus the tiny Electric vehicles we see
| that sometimes can't go over 25-35MPH (I think one or two may
| have even used lead batteies, practically adult sized power-
| wheels...)
|
| Additionally, BYD had the advantage of being in the LiFePO
| and mass manufacturing game very early. I remember seeing
| their booth at the Detroit Auto Show back in... 2008-2010ish?
| and they had a couple of vehicles out for display. However it
| became seemed clear they were more interested in showing off
| battery tech to others and the vehicles in a way felt
| presented like 'Reference Boards'.
| dandy23 wrote:
| But why expand if no one buys their cars? There are so many
| more players selling EVs now both from China and Europe. It's
| harder to sell when you have competition.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Musk has many goals. He also does drugs and gets involved into
| politics. There's only 24 hours in a day.
| roenxi wrote:
| I'm not sure about this specific case, but the general case is
| usually that China is using some technique that is illegal in
| the US. Or sometimes energy policy is the problem.
|
| You mention Giga Berlin for example. Germany is suffering from
| the EU energy crisis (which really has been an ongoing thing
| since around 2008 when the per capita downtrend in energy took
| hold), so it wouldn't be weird if cars being produced there
| aren't competitive with Chinese-manufactured goods.
|
| Similarly, US manufacturing doesn't seem to have the same
| vibrancy as Chinese work and the root causes seem to be
| environmental and labour law. It is also possible that the US
| just doesn't have the expertise; as far as I'm aware the US
| doesn't have an answer to Shenzhen (I'm happy to be told this
| is just ignorance, the US is a big place, but so far no dice).
| Jonanin wrote:
| FWIW, Tesla's market cap is almost 10x BYD's. So the market
| does not necessarily agree with this assessment. One reason is
| that Tesla competes exceptionally well in the international
| luxury car market. BYD pushes a lot of metal at low margins.
| fatkam wrote:
| Tesla need to lower costs.
| ArtTimeInvestor wrote:
| Only a Tesla killer if they can beat Tesla in the race to full
| self-driving.
|
| Talking about self-driving - any ideas what's going on with
| Tesla's FSD V12?
|
| They published a live stream of Elon Musk driving it, and gave it
| to exactly _one_ Youtuber, who is now putting up video after
| video how he drives it.
|
| Both the live stream and the Youtube videos show vastly improved
| self-driving capabilities.
|
| But if this is real, why don't they push it to customers?
| ein0p wrote:
| Tesla will not be able to deliver true FSD with its current
| purely computer vision based stack
| ArtTimeInvestor wrote:
| Why not? How do humans drive if not by vision?
| rvnx wrote:
| Using sound as well
| ein0p wrote:
| Because humans drive using general intelligence - something
| we can't replicate anywhere yet, let alone in a power-
| constrained car.
| ArtTimeInvestor wrote:
| something we can't replicate anywhere yet
|
| _yet_
|
| That's why it's a race.
| ein0p wrote:
| You don't understand. The stack currently deployed in
| Tesla vehicles _will never be capable_ of anything even
| remotely resembling AGI. There's just not enough compute
| there by several orders of magnitude, even if we knew how
| to do it, which we don't.
| ArtTimeInvestor wrote:
| not enough compute
|
| Which type? Storage? Compute speed?
|
| How do you know what the lower bound for AGI is?
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Regardless of the issue processing the data to the level
| that humans can very quickly, is the camera hardware
| they're putting in Tesla comparable with human eyes?
| Specifically with dynamic range - seeing in shadowy areas
| on a sunny day, or not being totally blinded by a headlight
| at night?
| ArtTimeInvestor wrote:
| We would have to look at the camera footage of crashes
| and then think about whether a sufficiently intelligent
| person could have avoided the crash given those visuals.
|
| My feeling is that yes, with enough intelligence, even
| low res cameras are sufficient.
| timeon wrote:
| Self-drive is not about human, is it?
| Veserv wrote:
| Well, for one, humans have two eyes in front with the same
| focal length giving us binocular vision. The people at
| Tesla apparently think humans only have one eye which is
| why they keep spewing the nonsensical analogy to human
| perception.
|
| That is just the most glaring error with that analogy. It
| ignores more subtle issues like how human eyes have higher
| resolution than 5 megapixels. Human eyes are also much
| better at contrast, have adaptive focus, are attached to a
| mobile mount, etc.
|
| The only people who would originate a intentionally
| deceptive argument that humans can drive with vision
| therefore Tesla's can drive with their camera setup are
| undeniably con artists trying to sell a lie. The people who
| are duped into promulgating that lie can be forgiven for
| being swindled by those con artists, it is why they are
| called con artists.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| The problem is the world modeling and decision making, not
| the perception.
| ein0p wrote:
| I work in this field and own a Tesla. It routinely sees
| things in my garage that aren't there. I would not entrust
| my life and that of my family to their "FSD", and I know
| the science does not exist to fix out of domain errors
| 100%. It is an outstanding product in all other regards. I
| just wish they'd stop promising the stuff they obviously
| can't deliver
| snovv_crash wrote:
| I work in this field too. And I'm not saying the FSD is
| good. I'm saying cameras are effectively photon counters
| these days and the leaps forward we've seen in text and
| image generation from ML, has yet to impact robotics in
| any meaningful way.
| vehemenz wrote:
| Trains are better than self-driving cars. China's electric cars
| don't need self-driving because they have developed world train
| infrastructure, while the US doesn't.
| ovi256 wrote:
| Nobody's taking away trains, relax. You'll be able to take
| them even if others make other transportation choices.
| feverzsj wrote:
| Tesla is basically against a whole country which has the world's
| second largest economy. The cheapest model of BYD is around
| $8,000 and the BYD will get much much more subsidies from the
| government. Big China companies like BYD, Huawei can literally
| get infinite funds and other resources from the government.
| alephnerd wrote:
| More so the fact that BYD's battery division is an absolute
| gold mine like AWS is for Amazon.
|
| BYD is the primary battery supplier for most consumer
| electronics (you're iPhone is using a BYD battery for example)
| feverzsj wrote:
| Yes, with infinite resources, cheapest price, no one can beat
| them.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Or mostly the fact that Apple decided to make BYD their
| primary battery supplier in the early 2000s over dozens of
| other companies.
|
| Batteries are a low margin high skill industry. Battery
| makers in SK/JP/US/TW decided to go upmarket where margins
| are much higher and competitive moats stronger (due to R&D,
| IP, and/or procurement requirements)
| roncesvalles wrote:
| Meanwhile the US government bipartisanly hates Tesla.
| dragontamer wrote:
| Sounds like a problem the CEO of Tesla should work on. Or is
| he too busy Tweeting?
| kibwen wrote:
| He's too busy schmoozing his hand-picked board to give him
| billions in bonuses for dutifully doing the job of--let me
| check my notes here--abusing ketamine all day while
| pretending to be CEO of multiple companies.
| qwerasdf5 wrote:
| A contractual agreement (that Elon met) is 'schmoozing'?
| dragontamer wrote:
| A contract written by yourself (aka: Largest shareholder)
| given to a board you picked (aka: Chairman of the Board
| of Directors), giving yourself a payraise (aka: about the
| CEO's bonus pay) is obviously null and void.
|
| You can't just give yourself a pay-raise. Even if you're
| the largest shareholder, the controlling member of the
| board of directors, and CEO of a company.
|
| If you accept the public's money, then the _other_
| shareholders, even small minority stakes, have a say in
| the matter.
|
| If you don't like the fact that Delaware looks out for
| smaller shareholders, you can I guess move out to other
| states or something. But for the most part, people accept
| the fact that public companies have rules that go above-
| and-beyond normal. Wanton acts of corporate corruption
| aren't tolerated in Delaware.
|
| --------------
|
| The rule in play here is shareholder fiduciary duty. The
| Board of Directors failed to represent the needs of all
| of its shareholders like they are legally obligated to
| do. A large pay-bonus to a CEO who already controls a
| large stake in Tesla (who'd benefit from Tesla improving
| anyway) is obviously a bad move. No other CEO in history
| had such a large share-increase bonus.
|
| In any case, looking out for the little guy is a deeply
| American value. We understand the problems associated
| with Tyranny of the Majority. If you want to fully own a
| company, then stay a private-business (like the Mars
| family), don't come begging to the public for public
| money.
| riehwvfbk wrote:
| Looking out for the little guy is an American value?
| Walmart and Amazon warehouse employees would like a word
| with those mythical Americans.
| PaywallBuster wrote:
| big enough shareholders get to place their own board
| members
|
| you seem to have it backwards:
|
| > Typically, the board chooses one of its members to be
| the chairman (often now called the "chair" or
| "chairperson")
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_directors
| dragontamer wrote:
| https://people.com/human-interest/elon-musk-steps-down-
| chair...
|
| Elon Musk, IIRC, was Chairman, Largest Shareholder, and
| CEO when the deal in question / contract was written.
|
| Elon had a spat with SEC who removed him as chair, but
| Musk remained largest Shareholders and CEO after that.
| qwerasdf5 wrote:
| This is incorrect. There is no "pay raise" if he doesn't
| meet his contractual obligations. He almost got 0
| dollars. How is that a pay raise?
| cj wrote:
| It's surprising how quickly the HN sentiment on
| individuals can change. What was the tipping point for
| musk?
|
| A couple years ago a comment like this would be [dead] in
| less than a couple minutes.
| dragontamer wrote:
| When someone says bullshit about rocket science, its hard
| to argue because we aren't rocket scientists.
|
| When someone says bullshit about mass manufacturing of
| cars, its hard to argue because we aren't mechanical
| engineers.
|
| When someone says bullshit about running a website...
| guess what? Hacker News is full of programmers, venture
| capitalists, and website owners. Suddenly Elon Musk is
| speaking our language and what we see from Twitter is...
| uggghhhh....
|
| Elon Musk hasn't changed much. All that's really happened
| is that he moved back into a proper technology discussion
| in a subject people around here are deeply familiar with.
| The standard levels of bullshit he spouts are
| insufficient when the audience here has a much deeper
| understanding of online advertisements, bots, user
| engagement, UI issues, and the like.
| qwerasdf5 wrote:
| If they have a deeper understanding of these things, then
| why haven't they produced a real competitor?
| ambichook wrote:
| probably because of the classic "making twitter is easy,
| getting twitter to a billion people is hard"
| qwerasdf5 wrote:
| Perhaps the government should stop hating, and pushing
| others to hate?
| m2mdas2 wrote:
| Defense likes him that is enough I think. They understand
| Musk's value. I also think that he is having a parallel with
| Tony Stark persona as a visionary businessman who goes
| against establishment to achieve his goals.
| eunos wrote:
| Well the current Premier was a strong backer for Giga Shanghai
| as well
| jorvi wrote:
| I hate that we could have $8000[0] EVs in the EU, but
| Volkswagen+Germany will push the EU to add so many tariffs
| because they can't match the price-quality ratio. Generally I
| love the EU, but occasionally.. sigh.
|
| [0] Probably $12500 with transportation, purchase tax etc
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| Did EU not learn from funding Russia. It is not a good idea
| to empower dictatorships.
| jorvi wrote:
| I sure hope you didn't type this on a mobile device, or any
| PC made after the 2000s.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| You're making his point.
| jorvi wrote:
| His point is overly dogmatic.
|
| With the Russian gas dependence, shutting down supply
| meant industries would shut down and (with a freak
| winter) people might be unable to heat their homes.
|
| If Chinese EVs become common in the EU market, it
| diminishes EU car manufacturing and then China does a rug
| pull and stops exporting to the EU.. American, Korean and
| Japanese EV manufacturers will fill the gap in
| marketshare, perhaps at a slight premium but still well
| below current EV prices. What horror.
|
| And it isn't like Volkswagen will roll over and die.
| They'll just face market pressure to innovate and become
| more efficient.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| Meanwhile, you completely ignore China using EU money to
| build its offensive capabilities against Taiwan.
| jorvi wrote:
| China must have some magical coffers that they are
| simultaneously losing $50 billion+ a year on subsidizing
| Chinese EV makers.. but somehow also earning money on it
| and spending it on national defense?
|
| I don't like the direction China is headed either, but
| anyone with even an ounce of pragmaticness realizes that
| we still live in a world of global trade.
|
| Also, the US is trading with China to the tune of $750
| 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off all
| that trade to stop funding their future adversary.. or
| perhaps it is not so simple?
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves
| plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and
| other industries more than that.
|
| The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a
| pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be
| looking to get out of that situation in a way that
| doesn't disadvantage ourselves further.
|
| Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done?
| Just looking to change direction is a useful step.
| jorvi wrote:
| > Huh? China has something like $4 trillion in reserves
| plug ongoing taxation, it can and has subsidised EVs and
| other industries more than that.
|
| That is not the thing I was giving a counterpoint to
| though. That was "EU trade is funding aggression against
| Taiwan" (with the implication that importing cheap EVs
| would increase the net inflow of capital).
|
| > The point is that we've made a mistake and we're in a
| pickle. We're dependent on our adversary and we should be
| looking to get out of that situation in a way that
| doesn't disadvantage ourselves further.
|
| > Are you just saying there's nothing that can be done?
| Just looking to change direction is a useful step.
|
| But at least here, we _aren 't_ in a pickle. China has
| little leverage here, and they can't easily increase that
| leverage either.
|
| Let me simplify my point: if China wants to massively
| subsidize the electrification of the EU's car population,
| why not let them? They won't reach global market
| dominance, and it both speeds up our electrification and
| saves our citizens' money. The only one's getting pinched
| are the shareholders of EU car companies.
|
| I feel similarly about solar panels, even though China
| _has_ achieved market dominance there. They cannot
| leverage their position there, because solar panels are
| not a prohibitively difficult product to set up a supply
| chain for, and the demand for them is somewhat elastic.
| It would slow down the closure of fossil power plants and
| maybe force a few old one 's to reopen, but that's it.
| With EVs, buyers would just switch over to other brands
| and part of the global supply would get redirected as EU
| prices go up.
|
| I worry much more about China's grip on rare metal
| processing and mid tier chip production. The rare metals
| go into "everything" hot right now, and everyone is so
| focused on high-end chip production that they're
| forgetting how many everyday products run on "low"
| density chips.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| Subsidies don't mean zero profit. It can even more profit
| if volume increases and others are driven out of the
| market.
|
| > Oh yeah, the US is trading with China to the tune of
| $750 000+ billion a year. So, I guess they should cut off
| all that trade to stop funding their future adversary..
| or perhaps it is not so simple.
|
| Again literally just
|
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-
| som...
| jorvi wrote:
| Right right, improving society by _not_ electrifying and
| instead staying with ICE cars. Get real.
| Epa095 wrote:
| How is it at all relevant that most of OPs phone is
| (presumably) made in China?
|
| https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:750/format:webp/0*R
| 013...
| jorvi wrote:
| These days, smartphones and PCs are pretty much critical
| to function in society.
|
| We accept that those are for-the-most part made in China,
| despite "funding a dictatorship", because we realize that
| we can't expect someone on median income to pay $3000 for
| a phone or $5000 for a laptop.
|
| Much as I'd like it to be different, cars are also still
| critical to function in much of society. We want everyone
| in EVs ASAP.
|
| Where would one get these good quality cheap EVs, even at
| some geopolitical cost..
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| The way to do that is by funding local companies and
| increasing density and public transport.
|
| You also made an error. Cars are essential. EVs are not
| the only type of car.
| jorvi wrote:
| > The way to do that is by funding local companies..
|
| You do not understand the car industry. Giving them
| _less_ competitive pressure will not increase car quality
| or lower sales price.
|
| > ..and increasing density..
|
| Increasing density during an already extreme housing
| crunch? Genius.
|
| > ..and public transport.
|
| I would love to see better public transport, but most
| voters are not ready to pony up the taxes for a public
| transit network that has enough fidelity to sufficiently
| replace cars.
|
| > You also made an error. Cars are essential. EVs are not
| the only type of car.
|
| Hydrogen is not happening, and staying with ICEs means
| screwing over the planet.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| Literally https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-
| improve-society-som...
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| Yes let's hope Trump doesn't win.
| russli1993 wrote:
| no they don't. For end product sales, China's EV subsidies is
| the same for all NEVs, Tesla enjoys that too. Chinese
| provincial governments may provide lumps sum
| cash/grants/preferential loans/cheaper land for specific
| projects, factories built in there, and Tesla got that too when
| it built gigafactory in Shanghai. BWM got preferential land
| prices and taxes when it build more factories in Liaoning. And
| these kinds of governmental assistances exist in many
| countries, including Germany, SK, USA. Another way Chinese
| government "help" a company is by equity investments. But that
| is not a blank check and endless funnel of cash. And btw,
| Chinese government money is also taxpayer money, it's not
| endless, government is looking for return on whatever benefits
| in increased revenue in the future, it has to be effective
| investment. And look at all the uproar when Chinese batteries
| makers trying to build factories and provide employment in the
| USA.
|
| So, yes, Chinese government give the same subsidies for Tesla.
| What does Chinese companies get in the USA? The most
| discriminatory and certainly illegal rule that is IRA under
| WTO. IRA subsides are barred legally from giving to companies,
| not just headquartered in China, but also any Chinese origin
| entity or any entity in the world that holds 25% more shares,
| and regardless where the product is made. And not just for end
| product, any materials, components made by Chinese entities or
| any entities in the world where Chinese entity holds 25% share
| regardless where it's made. Does your South Korean anode
| company board have a Chinese national and Chinese entity
| invested in your company? You are dead. For that Chinese board
| member, he/she is forced to resign, for the Chinese investment,
| is forced to be sold. It's the most discriminatory trade rule
| ever made. Then there is all the fearmongering, consistent
| witch hunt against Chinese origin companies and entrepreneurs
| by the government and congress. It's not even against a company
| anymore, it's against the entrepreneurs, the founders who got a
| Chinese name. Anything that has Chinese name in it, you get
| roasted, shamed, defamed, treated like cockroaches by people in
| congress. Right now, if you are Chinese person, want work on
| semiconductors, telecom, batteries, AI, mobile phone apps,
| internet, biotech, regardless where you are based, US
| government will defame you, wants everyone in the world to shun
| you off, to treat you like cockroaches. See what happened to
| tusimple, Zoom, G42.ai, or so many companies that I can't list
| here? On a tangent, Shou Chew was in congress and members of
| congress continued to shame his Singaporean nationality, not
| even aware Singaporean and Chinese are different. In China,
| Tesla and Elon Muskc got big publicity and essentially
| "encourage you to buy" message from the government. What does
| Chinese entrepreneurs get in the USA? I am using strong
| language, but this is the truth. No need to suger coat this.
|
| And for Huawei, funny before the USA's witch hunt against
| Huawei, Chinese telecoms were buying from Ericsson, Nokia,
| Cisco en mass. And now god forbid we support our own companies
| when USA, and it coerces other countries to trying to just
| blatantly kill off Huawei, chop off its head. Huawei may sound
| like same name to you, but for us its 100K workers and
| families, who have kids to feed, grandparents to take care of.
| Then millions of people dependent on Huawei's supply chain,
| sales networks, service centers. It's one thing if a company
| doesn't innovate and got out competed in the market. It's
| totally another when a foreign government attacks the company
| with the goal of completely chopping its head off. Fair
| competition is fine, but only when the environment is fair. I
| am gladly buy an iphone if is better than huawei if they are on
| level playing field. But right now, I will gladly buy a mate 60
| pro even if its weaker than iphone. Western media play up all
| Chinese people are super nationalistic blah blah. It's foreign
| governments that is attacking our people and families that is
| making people more nationalistic. US government has sanctioned
| more than 1000 Chinese entities, trade war, tech war, 10s of
| millions of people are directly or indirectly affected by US
| government. There is a joke on Chinese internet now that when
| US sanctions a Chinese company it's a stamp of approval. By the
| way, no one has accelerated Chinese domestic semiconductor
| supply chain faster than US sanctions. No one has promoted
| Chinese people to buy Chinese products better than foreign
| governments. Huawei essentially got a martyred brand image
| after the USA's treatment, the struggle to survive against all
| odds, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, the
| Independence Day story.
| panick21_ wrote:
| Funny how its always a Tesla killer, rather then a killer of the
| legacy manufactures. That's the actual story here.
|
| BYD in China more broadly spell doom for GM and friends, far more
| then Tesla.
| dragontamer wrote:
| It's Tesla that has a substantial Chinese (and European)
| footprint where BYD is operating though.
|
| GM/Ford/Stellaris aren't making a push for EVs in China like
| Tesla is. BYD just doesn't compete with USAs automakers outside
| of their Chinese footprints. (Maybe European competition since
| Europe is importing a lot of Chinese EVs in practice right now)
| panick21_ wrote:
| > GM/Ford/Stellaris aren't making a push for EVs in China
| like Tesla is.
|
| China is an incredibly important market for cars, its not
| about EV or not.
|
| And to just say 'well, see we don't even car about this huge
| market' isn't really much of a strategy, its just giving up.
|
| My point was not about GM and US companies, it was about
| legacy EV companies in general. VW has massive problems in
| China as well. My broad point is that BYD is a problem for
| everybody.
|
| > BYD just doesn't compete with USAs automakers outside of
| their Chinese footprints.
|
| But they will. They are currently expanding all over the
| world. Its a matter of time.
| dragontamer wrote:
| You think the import tariffs on Chinese cars is going to
| come down any time soon? Or that American politics would
| change such that USA would accept a large number of such
| cars?
|
| If not.... then no. USA pretty much doesn't have to worry
| about it.
|
| USA can afford higher car prices, and it's a political
| tradeoff that's really easy to make right now. I'm willing
| to bet on higher such tariffs if Chinese car prices drop
| any further.
| fma wrote:
| You know, GM has twp joint ventures in China, and Wuling
| especially has popular EVs (behind BYD, and Tesla of course).
| Below commenter also points out GM isn't aggressive in China...
|
| Maybe should have picked Ford as a better example.
| panick21_ wrote:
| I was referring to all legacy manufactures. VW is having lots
| of issues in China.
|
| GM isn't aggressive in China because they know they can't
| really win.
|
| GM and co attitude being 'who cares about that large market
| we don't even want to compete' isn't really all that
| convincing as a strategy.
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| How does VC work in China? How did he get his money?
|
| Snooping a bit on Wikipedia, it says that he partnered with his
| cousin who was some kind of banker.
| alephnerd wrote:
| For BYD in the 1990s, Family banking.
|
| Specifically within the Hokkien, Cantonese, and Hakka diaspora.
|
| Guangdong+Fujian became a major manufacturing hub because most
| of the business elite in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand,
| Hong Kong, and Phillipines were from the same clans and
| families in Guangdong and Fujian
|
| Before the 2000s, Manchuria tended to be much richer and
| industrialized than Guangdong/Fujian because of Russian/Soviet,
| South Korean, and Japanese FDI along with the fact that it was
| close to Beijing and was the heartland of the CCP after WW2 so
| most SOEs were based there.
|
| By the mid-late 2000s, China's financial sector formalized and
| a IB/PE/VC model similar to that in the US and Israel arose.
| chx wrote:
| Yeah, well
|
| It is, on paper a private company
|
| But you need to understand this is China. BYD is _extremely_
| heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. For example, this
| 2016 article
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/mclifford/2016/07/26/with-a-lit...
| mentions
|
| > In the five years ending December 31, 2015, the company
| reported receiving a total of 2.9 billion yuan ($435 million)
| in government support.
|
| and that's just the reported support, there are tricks the
| government can play with for example labor costs, transferring
| R&D and so forth.
| tomohawk wrote:
| It's hard to compete against a state backed enterprise,
| especially when the backing includes a massive industrial
| espionage operation that keeps tabs on all of your competitors.
| dbcooper wrote:
| BYD's cars gave crappy suspension. Compared to a BMW on the
| highway...
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| They have their own campus monorail that is absolutely wild lol.
| Animats wrote:
| Monorail! LA may be getting a BYD monorail.[1]
|
| [1] https://laskyrailexpress.com/
| christkv wrote:
| What BYD seems to be doing in spain is the following. cost wise
| they are no cheaper than the other cars. What they do is front
| you the government subsidies for evs so the car is cheaper. What
| happens if you don't qualify for it in the years it takes to
| process the subsidy. Who knows? Do they write it off or does the
| ccp cover it as a defacto state subsidy from China?
| misiti3780 wrote:
| https://archive.is/pVDKq
| mtrovo wrote:
| It's really hard to find any constructive discussion around
| Chinese companies here.
|
| Anybody willing to share facts about subsidies, state control or
| anything that would justify believing that BYD success here is
| not justified?
|
| For me the whole story of vertical integration of a battery
| manufacturer company that decided to make EV cars makes a lot of
| sense.
| late2part wrote:
| We have always been at war with Oceania.
| h0l0cube wrote:
| Another narrative that's missing is 'Discretionary government
| intervention can be good for the market actually', and if the
| Chinese administration is making big bets on an emerging high
| value market (batteries and EVs), maybe the traditionally
| laissez-faire US should take note. That does rely on the notion
| that China _is_ actively subsidizing and enabling BYD more than
| the US is for Tesla, and leaving aside their efforts on battery
| R &D, vertical integration, leveraging lower labor costs etc.
| as you say
| m2mdas2 wrote:
| I didn't know much about BYD till the end of the last year.
| Looked around for more information and found this great video[0].
| It's a fascinating story actually.
|
| So in west clean energy push is actually a moral obligation for
| reducing the effects of climate change. Whereas for China it is
| the main way for future growth, to become less dependent on oil
| supply chain which it does not control. Also they know that they
| can't compete in ICE vehicles with the established companies. So
| they started working on EV long before Elon Musk popularized EV
| in West.
|
| The subsidized whole EV industry. As a result hundreds of EV
| companies were created seeing the opportunities. As a result
| nationwide EV infrastructure was built. Five years ago China did
| the most unconventional thing. They invited Tesla to build the
| factories and at a same time removed most subsidies given to
| local EV companies. So Tesla and local companies were having same
| equal footing.
|
| It resulted in a pure form of free market competition. It became
| a bloodbath, a king of the hill type survival game where Tesla
| sat at top of the hill. As a result of competition innovation,
| optimization happened. Most of the local EV companies died.
| Remaining became almost the same level as Tesla and BYD became
| the new king of the hill (at least in China).
|
| The unconventional decision by China may look foreign to western
| audience but it actually resonates to us who are raised by Asian
| families. So if you are a child in an asian households parents
| most of the time talks about a 'kid next door' who is good at
| study. The parents frequently tells their child to become as good
| or better than the 'kid next door',saying that we will give you
| as good environment within our reach to achieve it. It gives an
| implicit pressure on the child to become better. Obviously not
| all become as good as the kid next door but some prevails.
|
| In the Chinese EV market case Tesla was that 'kid next door'.
|
| Edit: Sorry wrong video. Trying to find the video.
|
| Edit2: found the video
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-NcTawauXA . Skip to the 9
| minute.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttu55nEtC6o
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Why was so much money poured into BYD and nobody cared about
| designing a proper logo?
| simonstrong wrote:
| BYD will next buy lithium mines they will manage the whole supply
| chain. By producing cars in Europe Africa South America they by
| pass import laws. Ford and GM signed supply deals with BYD
| technology a day ago. it's just too late to start to research and
| develop your own Battery many manufacturers will adapt BYD
| batters otherwise you will miss out of a huge market share. ESG
| funds and offset carbon credits just going to keep making BYD
| stronger and stronger.
| bayindirh wrote:
| > "Frankly, I think if there are not trade barriers established,
| they will pretty much demolish most other companies in the
| world," he (Musk) said.
|
| I love this viewpoint. If a country takes a similar approach
| against the US, same people will go berserk about equality and
| cry foul. However, when they feel threatened, they can call for
| the very thing they are against.
| pqdbr wrote:
| As someone who just took delivery of a BYD Song Plus, I can say
| I'd be very, very worried if I was BMW's CEO.
|
| And yes, I've owned 5 BMWs before this new BYD.
| comechao wrote:
| They announced three factories in Brazil. However, cars in Brazil
| are expensive due to many factors, including taxes and tariffs
| (see the price of an iPhone in Brazil and try not to be
| horrified).
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