[HN Gopher] Coding in Vision Pro
___________________________________________________________________
Coding in Vision Pro
Author : willemlaurentz
Score : 330 points
Date : 2024-02-16 22:37 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (willem.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (willem.com)
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| At first I thought it would be weird, but after a few minutes it
| all felt very natural and a deep work focus was achieved without
| me really realising it. I tried to grasp some of the awe I
| experienced in this blog post.
| shakow wrote:
| How is the resolution? I never tried a Vision Pro yet, but that
| was my main gripe with my Rift. Indeed, IME, the ``real world''
| size of the windows is nothing, it's their angular resolution
| that is a make or break.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| I love high dpi displays as I like text (and other details)
| to be crisp and clear.
|
| Vision Pro is approaching a quality that I feel is
| acceptable, somewhere between "flawless reality" and a decent
| screen. The virtual environments are crisper than the camera
| passthrough mixed environments.
|
| There is definitely room for improvement on screen quality,
| but in general I am impressed.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| It ranges from okay to not that bad. It's not as good as the
| "retina" screens in Apple's other products.
|
| I can definitely see pixels on the device if I'm wearing
| contacts unlike what most of the early reviewers claimed.
|
| But it's not so bad as to be unusable and you don't really
| notice them in most contexts - the main place I notice pixels
| is using it as a screen for macOS. VisionOS apps are rendered
| very large by default so the resolution deficiencies aren't
| as apparent.
|
| Overall it is very impressive but there's also much room for
| improvement in resolution.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| For non-text content, I think it's pretty good, actually.
| Watching content in Disney+ or Max's theater modes is
| really satisfying despite those virtual screens being
| sub-4k.
| bed99 wrote:
| I don't think it is possible to see the pixels, they are
| the size of a red blood cell. But maybe you can see
| antialiasing or noise from the cameras.
|
| Personally I can't see any pixelation. It's even better
| than reality. That being said passthrough cameras'
| resolution do suck but it's not what it's important and
| probably the easiest problem to solve.
| hatsix wrote:
| sure, they're small, but some of them are closer to your
| eye lense than your retina. The pixels per degree are
| lower than any Apple product in the past 10 years
| euroderf wrote:
| Now there is a topic. How does it work with contacts ?
|
| Does it obviate the need for the 149$ Zeiss add-ons ?
|
| Do you blink enough in the environment ?
| robterrell wrote:
| I have been using contacts and just got the zeiss lenses
| today. So far it's roughly equivalent. I think there is a
| touch more distortion (chromatic aberration along the
| edges) with the inserts. But my contacts are progressives
| and kinda sucked for this, single vision would probably
| be great.
| astrange wrote:
| The purchase path in the online store will ask what kind
| of contacts you have, and if they're compatible will
| recommend using them instead of inserts.
|
| The main advantage is that it's less crowded in there, I
| suppose.
| euroderf wrote:
| I wonder what are the criteria for compatibility...
| drcode wrote:
| I don't know, if I need to use my macOS laptop, it sounds a
| lot easier to just use my laptop, instead of using a helmet
| and then doing the connection dance to get a single ok-ish
| screen anyway
| veec_cas_tant wrote:
| A single screen that is much larger than a MacBook
| screen, that is the advantage. And the connection dance
| is really just...tapping the connect button?
| kllrnohj wrote:
| But with the same "resolution" such that you can't fit
| any more content on it and with much worse density.
|
| Why would I actually want that? You've been able to do
| this for decades by hooking a TV up to your laptop and
| while that certainly has space challenges that limit the
| number of people that'll try it, it's not like tech
| bloggers were flocking to hook up 65" TVs to their macs
| and lovingly wax poetic about the productivity gains,
| either.
| ninkendo wrote:
| The virtual resolution is adjustable and you can fit a
| lot more contents on the screen than you can with a real
| monitor. It basically allows one more setting past the
| maximum "more space" mode you normally get from macOS. It
| does render a little bit blurry, though, if you crank up
| the virtual resolution to the max.
| grumbel wrote:
| The original Oculus Rift had 1080x1200, VisionPro has
| 3660x3200, field of view is similar. In virtual monitor terms
| that means a Rift can display a 640x480 monitor and the
| VisionPro a 1920x1080 one. Still quite far away from Retina,
| but should be pretty usable, especially since it allows
| making the virtual screens bigger than a real monitor can be.
| newshorts wrote:
| Nah it's bigger than 1080...
|
| You can choose 4k resolution and get extra real estate
| joshstrange wrote:
| It's better than anything else I've tried by a long shot,
| which admittedly is only the Quest 2, but still not good
| enough to work in all day. It wasn't the weight/comfort for
| me, just it was too blurry. I fully expect to be using one
| eventually as an external monitor replacement but it's got a
| little ways to go. Probably needs another generation or 2 of
| screen/camera improvements. It's _good_ but not worth keeping
| unless you already use mostly iPad apps for work.
| jdriselvato wrote:
| You have a great humorist writing style. I enjoyed the read and
| it just makes me want one even more.
|
| I just went to an Apple Store to demo the Vision Pro and walked
| out feeling like I had a religious experience. I was overcame
| with emotion over that immersion demo, those baby rhinos
| completely blew my mind. I'm booking another appointment soon
| to get another taste. I really hope the price becomes
| manageable for consumers like me; I love the tech and want the
| future but can't afford it.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Have you tried the Quest 3?
| larrysalibra wrote:
| "Active noise cancellation for your eyes" is a great way to put.
| I also have found myself using the mount hood environment set to
| daytime as the setting for macOS + visionOS multi-window set up.
|
| I took it off yesterday before some friends came over for dinner
| and I was kind of shocked that it had gotten dark outside because
| my mind felt like it was still day time since the sun was out in
| mount hood. I had actually been sitting on my office in darkness
| for a least an hour.
| xnx wrote:
| Is there a setting to allow the environment to change lighting
| conditions on a 24 hour schedule?
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Yes, in fact that's the default, it tracks sunrise and sunset
| based on your location.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| Yeah I changed the default to day which in hindsight wasn't
| a great idea especially since I'm trying to recover from
| North America -> Asia jet lag.
| enos_feedler wrote:
| Okay but as I sit here in my own private space in a city, one
| of these I need and one of these I don't.
| frozenport wrote:
| Had the opposite experience.
|
| My 6k monitor kicked the butt of the spatial computing screen. My
| Macbook was easier to use. I could use my phone laying on the
| side.
|
| There were ultimately a lot better, less blurry display options.
| mangosteenjuice wrote:
| Which 6k monitor do you have? I'm looking to get one.
| frozenport wrote:
| Dell UltraSharp 32 6K Monitor - U3224KB is pretty good.
|
| The same as the `Pro Display XDR` but with more ports, and
| half the cost.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Have the kinks with the U3224KB been worked out? I had one
| for a while but ended up returning it and replacing it with
| a Studio Display due to a bunch of papercuts (blog post
| with details in my profile, if interested) mostly
| concerning its functionality with macOS (though there were
| a couple of issues with the monitor itself too, mainly the
| AG coating).
| joshstrange wrote:
| Same here, 3 2K screens were better than it. Also, re: using
| your phone, that was a huge issue for me. I would get
| notifications for things I couldn't do on the AVP (at least not
| well, worst of all was text input) or just notifications only
| on my phone that I wanted to read but couldn't though the AVP
| passthrough. I hope they do an on-demand "Mac Virtual Display"
| for your phone in a future version so it looks clear.
| jm20 wrote:
| I tried to use the Vision Pro for work, and I'm not sure if it
| was just my eyes or what, but looking at code inside of that
| thing was just...exhausting. When I took it off, I looked at my
| regular monitors with a newfound love.
|
| I'd love for this thing to reach it's full potential as this
| 'work from a mountaintop, but really your garage' device, but I
| feel like until the resolution gets to the same as existing
| monitors (no small task, I know) it's just...not as good for the
| vast majority of use cases.
| judge2020 wrote:
| Were you using macos virtual display? Using the passthrough to
| look at monitors is passable but not suitable for even a few
| minutes of use.
| joshstrange wrote:
| Not you you responded to but I tried both. I mean I never
| seriously thought the passthrough would be good enough, and
| it wasn't, but it was just barely legible and useful when I
| was trying to pair my AVP to my MBP. But I really tried to
| like MVD and I just couldn't do it. It wasn't clear enough
| and felt like an added "tax" on my mind, also I felt very
| limited compared to when using my external monitors.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > not suitable for even a few minutes of use
|
| Because of lag, or why?
|
| Many people work on remote desktop all day long, and I spend
| my fair share of time in SSH sessions as well. It's not like
| it improves the experience compared to working locally, but
| for me it works fine so long as you're within a few hundred
| kilometers without much jitter. On the VR, the screen should
| move as you move your head because that position isn't what's
| being passed through, so that can't be the difference either.
| I don't understand (without having a device myself)
| how/whether this is worse than normal video streaming over
| LAN?
| judge2020 wrote:
| You misunderstood, the video passthrough of your
| surroundings is not good enough. Using the macOS virtual
| display is fine, there is some noticeable streaming
| latency, maybe 30ms (that would be solved if it could just
| take DP over USB-C or Thunderbolt in) but it's suitable for
| long term use.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Not just giving a display port of some sort seems like
| such a mistake given that there's already the battery
| cord/pack and that the virtual display latency is so bad.
| xp84 wrote:
| If i'm not mistaken, judge2020 meant that what's not
| suitable is looking through your AVP at your real monitor.
| The virtual display (glorified VNC or whatever) that you're
| saying is OK, I think the agree is also OK.
|
| And I'd assume that yes, it would be torture to try to view
| a monitor through the AVP just due to the resolution loss.
| It would be like poorly downscaling the 4k/5k resolution of
| your 27" monitor to like 1366x768 but much worse since the
| pixels are not even staying lined up on a level grid but
| resampled at slightly diagonal angles as your head moves
| even a couple of degrees. I am pretty sure setting up 2
| more big $1000 monitors left and right would be better than
| "center monitor + AVP with virtual apps left and right"
| (and it would save about $2000 lol).
| smaudet wrote:
| Eh?
|
| For coding you don't need a 2k$ monitor setup, you can
| get by comfortably on 3-400$.
|
| It's an interesting argument but they are going to need
| to try a lot harder for it to be a compelling desktop
| replacement.
| prawn wrote:
| Is the virtual display feature as it's presented now likely
| to be a stopgap or fallback? A bit like emulation or Rosetta
| apps when Apple silicon was new, or running iPhone apps on an
| iPad. Those were things that seemed core when each was first
| introduced and then quickly disappeared for most people in
| most cases.
|
| I wonder if it could largely be replaced by native AVP apps
| or a better way for them to send out data from the Mac to the
| headset once there is broader software support?
| testfrequency wrote:
| I had the same exact experience.
|
| It's felt more like I was playing a simulator game of myself
| coding, and it was not enjoyable at all.
|
| I often wonder how people who actually work at fast paced
| places as engineers are claiming to be more productive with
| this strapped on.
|
| If I just ingested and read email and slack messages all day,
| or talked in zoom all day, sure (maybe), but I don't.
| awskinda wrote:
| I'm not extremely productive, but I have 2 use-cases I'm
| excited about.
|
| 1. Having more screen real estate in my small home office. I
| often dive into spaghetti code, and seeing more of it helps
| me maintain context.
|
| 2. Working in my RV. I can't take my extra screens with me
| (it's a multi-use family RV, so I'm not mounting anything.
| Plus, there isn't room.), and I'm so, so excited about having
| more screen real estate in there. We lived/worked in it for 3
| months last summer, and it was really nice coming home to
| more screens at the end of the trip.
| reneherse wrote:
| Similarly, I'm intrigued by the possibility of using it for
| coding whilst aboard a sailboat, where having multiple
| large physical screens isn't a possibility due to limited
| space and lack of suitable mounting surfaces.
|
| Very curious to see how tolerable the UX is in an
| environment that's almost always experiencing some degree
| of motion independent of the user.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > Similarly, I'm intrigued by the possibility of using it
| for coding whilst aboard a sailboat, where having
| multiple large physical screens isn't a possibility due
| to limited space and lack of suitable mounting surfaces.
|
| It's amazing to me what people will do to avoid being
| present in the moment. You're on a sailboat, enjoy it,
| smell the ocean, feel the water on your face, breathe
| deeply and take it all in. If you're just going to strap
| goggles on your face to blind you to the beauty around
| you, then why did you even get a sailboat to begin with?
| shuckles wrote:
| Life on a sailboat is mostly pretty boring.
| bagels wrote:
| Seems like a recipe for motion sickness.
| luqtas wrote:
| https://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-and-
| gear/seasickness-cu...
| iamjake648 wrote:
| I returned mine today after attempting to use it for work for a
| few hours at a time over the last week. I felt the same eye
| strain with my Mac as a mirrored display.
|
| Zoom calls were cool, but nobody could take the Persona
| seriously.
|
| After a few days the eye strain seemed to get worse and worse,
| until yesterday it give me such a bad headache I decided that
| was enough.
| cromka wrote:
| > Zoom calls were cool, but nobody could take the Persona
| seriously.
|
| This is going to be another of their socially awkward
| gimmicks like Memojis they will double down until they
| inevitably fail.
|
| I really feel like Apple actually just doesn't feel it and
| every time they're pushing their weird geeky ideas onto their
| users they loose a bit of coolness factor. And if kids decide
| Apple got too cringe, while someone else manages to use that
| to spin their momentum (think e.g. Nokia respawning riding
| the 90s sentiment wave), they may actually start to seriously
| struggle.
| ApolIllo wrote:
| Damn. My family use Memojis heavily!
| amiantos wrote:
| Don't worry, most people on Hacker News have no real idea
| how normal everyday people use tech products. This person
| thinks Memojis are unused, but they just lack
| perspective.
| gffrd wrote:
| 100% of my social circle works outside tech, and nobody
| uses memojis
| jnaina wrote:
| The world is bigger than just the US of A. Memojis are
| big among the teen set elsewhere.
| cromka wrote:
| If the amount of internet content regarding Memojis is to
| be a judge, Memojis might as well not exist at all.
|
| From my broad circle in the US and Europe, I know one
| person who sends one maybe once a quarter.
| hnaccount_rng wrote:
| Wait till you find out where Apple makes >50% of its
| revenue ;)
| maximus-decimus wrote:
| > how normal everyday people use tech products
|
| What do you mean? Obviously normies all browse the web in
| emacs and write their own plugins in elisp.
| cromka wrote:
| > This person thinks Memojis are unused, but they just
| lack perspective.
|
| Or maybe you lack perspective, because maybe some people
| use it in your circle, but otherwise it's very unpopular?
|
| Observational fallacies work both ways.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| They're wildly popular with the kids in my orbit
| especially 6-12
| starkparker wrote:
| The point is that Apple trades in part on being
| fashionable.
|
| Lots of people use Facebook but virtually nobody
| considers Facebook to be fashionable.
|
| Meta doesn't care if Facebook is fashionable, but the
| more Apple looks like Meta, the bigger the opening for
| being disrupted on that front gets.
| haswell wrote:
| > _This is going to be another of their socially awkward
| gimmicks like Memojis they will double down until they
| inevitably fail._
|
| I don't necessarily agree. Some have talked about how the
| weirdness starts to fade after getting into a conversation
| and focusing on the discussion or collaboration at hand. It
| seems that once the brain has adjusted a bit, it can start
| to fill in for the badness somewhat.
|
| The feature clearly has a long way to go before it's _good_
| , but I think it's premature to dismiss it. Future
| iterations will only improve, so if some people are finding
| some success with it now, that will only grow.
| cromka wrote:
| No, I absolutely get that. I still remember how talking
| to yourself wearing wired headset on the street was
| weird.
|
| But it's been over 5 years since Apple started pushing
| Memojis, they still continued as recently as last year
| and they have little adoption still, as far as I am
| aware.
|
| Those who watched WWDC remember how cringey those Memoji
| bits were, I specifically refer to that aspect of their
| being increasingly out of touch.
| haswell wrote:
| I dunno. I know people who use their Memojis regularly
| and seem to enjoy it. I personally do not, but I think
| I'm not their target user. Not sure what the broader
| adoption looks like.
|
| But I think these are different enough capabilities that
| the success or failure of one is not necessarily
| predictive of the other.
| cromka wrote:
| > Not sure what the broader adoption looks like.
|
| Just google news Memojis and see what you get. Hardly any
| content, and if you navigate 2-3 pages further, you
| quickly reach 2022 and 2021 articles.
|
| If that doesn't scream "low adoption" then I don't know
| what does.
| haswell wrote:
| As a method of estimating adoption, that seems fairly
| suspect. It doesn't exactly seem like a capability that
| would generate much news.
|
| Google Trends seems more likely to be instructive, and as
| a topic, it has shown fairly steady (if low) interest
| over time after peaking on release with some periodic
| spikes most likely correlated with major updates.
|
| But as a feature, I wouldn't expect even Google trends to
| be very instructive (for understanding adoption), since
| people who know how to use them aren't likely to be out
| there searching. More use = more familiarity = less
| searching. Who knows; maybe they're barely used, but
| there isn't good data to back up that claim, and there
| are a number of other ways to interpret the data that
| does exist.
|
| With all of that said, I'll maintain that I don't see any
| real connection between them and Personas, or any
| predictive value in comparing them.
| bsdpufferfish wrote:
| Good thing its not Memoji.
| gffrd wrote:
| I've wondered the same. Apple has been a "given" for 20
| years because they somehow keep shipping great stuff and
| avoid the Microsoft trap of looking like total dorks by
| existing in an echo chamber.
|
| Even if they made a small misstep or had an awkward moment
| in a launch announcement, it was seen as endearing and
| forgivable.
|
| But there seem to be an increase in moments where Apple
| comes across as behind the curve, or not as aware of where
| the public is at relative to them, compared to then.
| leptons wrote:
| >avoid the Microsoft trap of looking like total dorks by
| existing in an echo chamber.
|
| Lolwhut?? Microsoft _wishes_ it had a fraction of the
| echo chamber Apple fans create. It 's what Apple is known
| for.
|
| >Even if they made a small misstep or had an awkward
| moment in a launch announcement, it was seen as endearing
| and forgivable.
|
| Uhhhh... "You're holding it wrong" was an absolute
| unmitigated PR disaster for Apple. It was one of the
| worst kinks ever in the "reality distortion field".
| People were rightly pissed. It was smug and stupid, not
| endearing.
| RajT88 wrote:
| > "You're holding it wrong"
|
| I cringe every time I hear someone say this to malign
| stupid users. Yes, I hear it at work.
|
| Some people legit only read the headlines about that
| story, not the articles.
| rpmisms wrote:
| You're misunderstanding. Apple exists in an echo chamber,
| Microsoft _wishes_ they did.
| saurik wrote:
| I believe the premise is that Microsoft--the employees
| and management or whatever: the entity, not the ecosystem
| or the users--exists in an echo chamber... as in, they
| keep thinking their users want stuff but their users
| actually don't.
| cozzyd wrote:
| I've never heard of memojis before...
| tyfon wrote:
| Same, and now I feel old again : - \
| threeseed wrote:
| By definition it isn't a gimmick.
|
| You either have some rendered 3D model or you take the
| headset off when making a call.
|
| Physics dictates that those are your only two choices.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > they're pushing their weird geeky ideas onto their users
|
| This thing is like $5k all-in and even then you have to get
| on a waiting list. I wouldn't really say that they're
| _pushing_ this on people.
| cromka wrote:
| Not talking about the device itself here.
| elif wrote:
| I imagine version 2 will likely have uncanny-valley-
| crossing AI filters to make it indistinguishable from your
| real face, background and expressions.
| 38 wrote:
| > coolness factor
|
| Apple hasn't been cool for a long, long time. Everyone has
| an iPhone so it's no longer special. It's just a waste of
| money when you can get basically the same android phone for
| half the price
| mvkel wrote:
| What's the alternative? You have goggles strapped to your
| face. Personas are the only thing you -can- do to have any
| sense of presence on a call.
|
| It's not perfect. It's not even good. But it's better than
| nothing.
| bagels wrote:
| We're so close to having ai just re-render your face in the
| videos.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _After a few days the eye strain seemed to get worse and
| worse, until yesterday it give me such a bad headache I
| decided that was enough._
|
| Curious if you've ever gotten your vision tested?
|
| I don't need glasses in everyday life, but I did go to an
| optometrist and got a pair anyways after I got annoyed one
| night that a friend could read a faraway sign and I couldn't
| quite. They make things a little bit sharper but not that it
| ever makes a difference for anything I actually need.
|
| But then I discovered that if I wear them, zero eye strain in
| VR. Without them my eyes hurt after 20 minutes. With them, I
| can use VR for hours, zero problem.
|
| No idea why. And I can't seem to find much information on it,
| but I asked my optometrist and they said it's a whole thing
| -- people who wear glasses sometimes not to see better, but
| to reduce eye strain and headaches.
| valvar wrote:
| Interesting. I'm also nearsighted, so I've always assumed
| that I don't need glasses when wearing VR headsets. It's
| easier to just take them off before putting on the headset
| (MQ3) and I've not noticed a difference in clarity -- but I
| do experience eye strain and visual exhaustion if I wear
| the headset for too long, so it might be worth comparing
| longer sessions with and without glasses.
| astrange wrote:
| VR headsets work like you're focusing at least a few feet
| away, so if you're nearsighted you need vision
| correction.
| fossuser wrote:
| Other vision issues can be relevant too. I have a very
| slight lazy eye - I can still see 3D video but my stereo
| vision is worse than average. I suspect it affects the eye
| tracking because for me it feels a little tedious and
| imperfect, but others don't seem to feel that way.
| astrange wrote:
| You may be able to help this with toric contacts. The
| inserts don't do prism correction so can't help with that
| specifically.
| barkingcat wrote:
| The problem with the vision pro is that you can't wear
| glasses to use them, and neither does Zeiss make all the
| prescriptions available.
| astrange wrote:
| You can wear contacts for VR as long as they're not
| colored. (Well, if there's no eye tracking even that's
| fine.)
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| With my Xreal airs, something is just always slightly off
| with focus. It's fine for movies and games, but it sucks
| for reading text.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| Could be the motion blur. Vision Pro is in this really weird
| cross section of insanely good visuals but really bad motion
| blur. Generally a little motion blur is OK, but the better
| your visuals get, the worse and more apparent motion blur can
| be.
|
| Personally I found AVP to be most draining if I'm moving my
| head around a lot and experiencing this motion blur. If I'm
| just looking at the screen in front of me, I get fatigued
| less
| chenxi9649 wrote:
| When I don't wear contacts for a while(just normal glasses),
| wearing them throughout the day also makes me a bit "tired".
| Even though the "resolution" is basically the same. But after
| wearing them consecutively for a few days, it becomes like the
| same as glasses.
|
| I wonder if there's something similar here going on. Since we
| rely so heavily on vision for everything(Especially balance).
| Any difference to our normal perception will cause "exhaustion"
| of sorts. But maybe wearing it continuously for days can cause
| our body to adapt to it?(Which, obviously is impossible for
| AVPs)
| g-b-r wrote:
| That might have to do with the eye "enlarging" a little to
| make space for the lenses, or maybe more likely with you
| learning to "lubricate" the lenses with tearing
|
| (pure conjecture, I last used lenses fifteen twenty years
| ago)
| LegitShady wrote:
| I think its a PWM issue.
| rrdharan wrote:
| Since I didn't know the acronym.. "Pulse Width Modulation":
|
| https://appleinsider.com/inside/apple-vision-pro/tips/why-
| ap...
| cpufry wrote:
| sounds like absolute fucking hellscape jesus christ
| g-b-r wrote:
| I haven't tried them, but I imagine that despite the high
| resolution, text that is badly aligned (and probably constantly
| imperceptibly wobbling) strains the eyes.
|
| The software should probably force text to be aligned on whole
| real pixels, even if that detracts a little from the realism.
|
| And the best would probably be to keep virtual screens
| completely fixed until you move by a certain, largish degree
| (as an option).
|
| Then again, maybe this has nothing to do with the straining.
| mlindner wrote:
| > The software should probably force text to be aligned on
| whole real pixels, even if that detracts a little from the
| realism.
|
| I think that'd be difficult given that pixels are effectively
| "non-rectangular" given the warping from the lenses.
| g-b-r wrote:
| Well they might be non-rectangular, but text aligned on
| their borders should still be sharper than misaligned text,
| no?
| astrange wrote:
| High DPI monitor text effectively can't be misaligned,
| especially since Apple's text rendering always dilated
| characters instead of trying to fit them onto pixel
| grids.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > aligned on whole real pixels
|
| Remember that you're working with two screens, not one, and
| they have to have coordinated projections that will also
| depend on the user's IPD.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| Interpupillary distance fwiw
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupillary_distance
| g-b-r wrote:
| Well ok, but is it a problem to have the text aligned on
| both screens, if the user is fine with some "stuttering"
| when moving or with keeping the virtual screen fixed?
| crooked-v wrote:
| It's a problem because a given piece of text isn't going
| to match the same pixel boundaries on both screens.
| curiouscavalier wrote:
| That's an interesting point. You potentially also have
| alignment issues with the window being placed spatially,
| i.e., rendering text that is not perpendicular to the plane
| of the screens. When moving my head in the AVP I'm moving the
| screens, unlike when I move my head to look at a different
| part of a monitor.
| g-b-r wrote:
| Yeah with slanted screens it might well be best to not
| align anything, at least beyond certain angles
| saagarjha wrote:
| Windows aren't perpendicular to your view, though. They shear
| because of perspective.
| g-b-r wrote:
| Yes I was mostly considering exactly perpendicular windows;
| it _might_ be beneficial to let go of some realism and
| perspective to work more comfortably
| thwarted wrote:
| I've watched a few reviews where the claim is "multiple 4k
| monitors", and even on Apple's site it says "More pixels than
| a 4K TV. For each eye.". But any virtual monitor is going to
| be scaled down, and with "spatial computing" being the
| desired interaction, it's not going to be projected at a
| fixed point on the embedded screens. Sure, when you have a 4k
| monitor across the room, it's smaller because it's further
| away, but the full resolution is there (reality is much
| higher fidelity than "retina display" ever was and even the
| Vision Pro is). When a virtual display is projected into a
| space further away, it's going to take up fewer pixels and be
| down-sampled. It's kind of annoying that the term "4k" is
| being used to refer to "physical space the display takes up"
| or "size reported to the operating system" rather than the
| physical pixel density.
| dagmx wrote:
| Text in natively rendered apps is perspective corrected
| before rendering and incredibly sharp as a result. It's been
| mentioned in a few interviews in passing.
|
| Text in streamed displays from a Mac may suffer from pixel
| misalignment.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| While the resolution is high, the PPD is very low (pixels per
| degree of vision). It's lower density than a classic monitor,
| and nowhere close to a modern high density 4k or retina
| display.
|
| Also your eyes can't really focus the same, anything within
| about 12 ft causes you to struggle to focus leading to eye
| strain. This is an unfortunate reality of the lenses
| leetharris wrote:
| Same. I returned it the other night because I finally just gave
| up on trying to make it comfortable. My body was just rejecting
| it. I could make it 20-30 minutes.
|
| It's a bunch of factors. Heavy, lots of pressure on a few
| specific points, the dangling cable to a slippery battery which
| I had to leave plugged in all day, the grainy passthrough...
| But most of all it's just too heavy. And connection would
| sometimes get janky between Mac and Vision Pro.
|
| I've got high hopes for generation 2 and 3 but it needs time to
| cook.
| frontman1988 wrote:
| Who knows what will be the long term consequences of using
| these devices on the eye. Better to be wary
| astrange wrote:
| There shouldn't be any as long as you're not a child.
| Children need to spend a lot of time outside to avoid
| developing myopia.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| VR headsets' resolution are still a couple orders of magnitude
| away from being indecipherable from normal vision, and that
| doesn't even include motion.
| dawnerd wrote:
| I couldn't stand the constant glare when looking at code.
| Everything just felt hazy combined with the awful pass through
| was a downgrade. Was more productive at first since I could
| block the world out. Didn't last.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| When you move your head around in Vision Pro, do the windows
| stay where you put them, or do they follow your head? If they
| stay where put, is this perfect, or do they jig a little bit?
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| They really seem to be glued to the real world, not moving
| when I move.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Eye stain has been a huge issue for me with earlier VR goggles.
|
| Some people seem to be suggesting the higher quality of the
| Vision Pro overcomes this, but I'm starting to really wonder.
| Would even more resolution actually solve it? Or maybe there's
| really no way around the discomfort for some of us.
| gumby wrote:
| I am thinking of upgrading my work station and I suppose this is
| cheaper than three 5K TB monitors. But is it really as good?
| djsavvy wrote:
| If that's the alternative you're considering, get the monitors.
| If you're like me and have been dying to be a bit less tethered
| to one location for a while, or you want to get a lot out of a
| little space, this device has finally crossed the threshold of
| usability (and being a joy to use). But if your baseline is
| three 5K monitors in one spot, you're gonna be disappointed.
| joshstrange wrote:
| It doesn't beat 3 2K monitors let alone 5K. I know, I have 3
| 2Ks and the Apple Vision Pro didn't come close to competing. It
| will one day and I can't wait but I returned mine for now.
| jgalentine007 wrote:
| LG 24" 4k monitors are like $350 - might be worth a try. I have
| two with my M3 Pro and they look fantastic - sharp text, good
| color and viewing angles.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| I have a pair of those, they are great. Wish they were a bit
| brighter but can't complain for the price.
| zone411 wrote:
| Get a 43'' center monitor with two LG DualUP 16:18 ratio
| monitors on the sides. Cheaper and much much better than Vision
| Pro. You will need a large desk though.
| metaphor wrote:
| > _Get a 43 '' center monitor with two LG DualUP 16:18 ratio
| monitors on the sides._
|
| Sounds nice for the office, but find myself conflicted with
| the notional operating value prop of continuously juicing
| north of 200W less graphics compute (?!) just putting idle
| pixels on screen on a home workstation that seldom gets
| shutdown.
|
| Curious if you've realized meaningful productivity gains
| since switching to that setup, and what graphics card(s) are
| you using to drive them?
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| My biggest problem is that it is sometimes difficult to read the
| keys on my keyboard. I really wish that it could do object
| recognition on my keyboard and re-render the keycaps. This would
| be especially useful in "environments", which make the keyboard
| disappear entirely.
| notso411 wrote:
| That is a really good idea
| modeless wrote:
| Such a great idea that Meta implemented it for Quest already.
| https://www.meta.com/help/quest/articles/headsets-and-
| access...
| Zelphyr wrote:
| This. I'm a touch-typist but I still find myself fumbling
| around trying to find where to put my hands when I first start
| typing while in an environment. I don't do that when I can see
| my keyboard in my peripheral vision though, so I think the
| keyboard object recognition would help.
| adr1an wrote:
| I thought oculus already had that!
| joshstrange wrote:
| I was surprised Apple didn't have this. My Meta Quest 2 had a
| super crappy version I tried for all of 2 minutes. The AVP
| passthrough and rendering content behind your hand (cut out?)
| both leave some to be desired. The little indicator that floats
| over your keyboard is cool, touch bar coming back from the
| grave. But I felt like I couldn't dial in the environment past
| the point where I could still see my keyboard/hands because of
| the "keyboard disappearing" issue.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| I found setting the environment immersion to around 50% lets
| me see enough of my keyboard so I'm not groping around for
| it.
|
| I'd also like to see app re-render your iPhone, Apple Watch
| and ipad screens which are pretty blurry in pass through.
| Also some sort of workaround for Face ID on iPhone when
| you're wearing Vision Pro. Seems like things Apple is
| uniquely positioned to do.
| joshstrange wrote:
| > I'd also like to see app re-render your iPhone, Apple
| Watch and ipad screens which are pretty blurry in pass
| through.
|
| Totally agree, I just made the same comment elsewhere in
| this thread. And yes, if I've authenticated with IrisID or
| whatever it's called then when I raise my phone do the same
| thing that allows my mac to unlock from my watch. Throw a
| little notification in the headset (some sound/animation)
| so if it's not me picking up the phone then it alerts me
| that someone else is and/or force me to do the IrisID to
| unlock the phone. After years of FaceID I just expect it to
| work 99% of the time and it was annoying to enter in my
| code to use my phone, felt very anti-Apple. A very Apple
| thing was the Universal Control when using Mac Virtual
| Display which lets you control/type in other AVP apps, that
| felt like magic.
| newZWhoDis wrote:
| It doesn't need to do that, just be sufficiently high
| resolution.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| Well fine, but the resolution isn't high enough, so it does
| need to do that.
| swader999 wrote:
| This is really just an opportunity for you to up your typing
| game. Black out your letters a few at a time until the keyboard
| is blank.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I can touch type just fine, it's finding the home row to put
| my fingers in the start positions that is the problem.
| Blacking out my keyboard wouldn't accomplish anything.
| TillE wrote:
| Pretty much every keyboard out there has little bumps on
| the F and J keys for exactly this purpose.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I know. I understand. But you still have to grope around
| for a couple of seconds to find them.
|
| It's not impossible, it's just annoying.
| qup wrote:
| When this is available in a smaller form-factor, I'll have one
| for certain.
|
| It would be nice if they could take input as well, to display
| inside a screen somewhere (HDMI or whatever).
|
| I feel pretty confident we're going to have this available as
| sunglasses before I'm dead, which is pretty cool.
| dbish wrote:
| I recently had a kid and lost my office :), I've been struggling
| to have a set space for work when he's asleep, but would
| absolutely love it if I could just put on a headset. Is it
| workable for that?
|
| I used to try to code in the quest3 but the resolution felt like
| I might as well be coding on my phone. I'll go buy one today if
| this would be an office replacement for me.
| djsavvy wrote:
| from experience -- yes, absolutely. It's not as good as a
| dedicated, already-optimized work space, but it comes pretty
| darn close.
|
| I have a great workspace well-tailored for me with a massive
| desk, ultrawide monitor, nice speakers, etc., but I still pop
| into my vision pro and screen mirror my laptop to get work
| done. If I'm having trouble focusing, the environments and
| white noise generation are really helpful. I've also noticed
| that it really boosts my productivity when I would otherwise be
| disturbed by a cluttered environment.
| dbish wrote:
| Wow, alright, strong endorsement. I might have to pick one up
| afterall. Thanks!
| joshstrange wrote:
| Go get a demo at an Apple Store. They won't show you Mac
| Virtual Display and the clarity of the AVP/iPad apps is
| good, pictures/experiences are breathtaking. MVD is not
| that clear, full stop. Also, try to resize an app with text
| down to the size you would use for a window on your
| computer. You can't. I constantly found myself wishing to
| make apps smaller but you can't and so you get limited
| quickly on what you can fit in front of you/in your field
| of vision. I even wish there was a way to switch to the
| iPhone app instead then so I could see more. I wonder if
| part of that limitation is that the text won't be as
| legible if it's smaller.
|
| One day it will get there, today is not that day. That
| said, you should go try it at an Apple Store, it's free to
| do.
| dbish wrote:
| Fair enough. I'll check it out.
| newshorts wrote:
| I have literally the exact same problem.
|
| Now I can sit on my couch in a much more comfortable and
| ergonomic? position with 4k screen size virtual display.
|
| Plus I can watch movies with the sound on and not wake anyone
| up.
| dbish wrote:
| that's awesome. i need to check it out
| anonzzzies wrote:
| The difference between the quest 3 and your phone is the
| monitor sizes. I have 4 monitors in immersed and while not high
| res, this is far more convenient than a phone (and for me than
| actual monitors; I hate stationary monitors workspaces). But I
| guess it might depend on what you actually do.
| ctvo wrote:
| Completely different from my reality; the selective blurring when
| connected to a laptop hurts my eyes and forces me to refocus them
| constantly. The limited field of vision stops where I can place
| my windows and displays without moving my head. The resolution
| noticeably worse (as expected) than my 2 year old 5K monitor.
| likebike wrote:
| Use a straw to drink the coffee. ;)
| dgunay wrote:
| My imagination ran a bit wild and I thought of a sort of
| "respirator" one could wear for enhanced immersion, featuring
| artificial odors. Maybe even a small straw to sip your
| preferred beverage from, like one of those water pouches hikers
| carry.
| aussieguy1234 wrote:
| Not a bad desktop background you have there
| helloericsf wrote:
| Intriguing idea! How long can you sustain coding with Vision Pro?
| BTW, you must have excellent eyesight and a strong neck. :D
| joshstrange wrote:
| I'm so glad that some people are able to use it in this way and
| I'm jealous. I found the code too blurry [0] and I disliked being
| limited to 1 blurry screen with 3 clear monitors available to me.
| I ended up returning mine but I can't wait till I can work inside
| one of those without feeling limited. It's easy to imagine a
| future where the AVP beats my monitors and I can't wait.
|
| [0] https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/04/apple-vision-pro-
| writing-...
| munk-a wrote:
| This feels like one of those activities that's so drastically
| different that there may be serious health concerns about it.
| Wearing a VR headset to play a few hours of games a week still
| lets your eyes mostly exist in a natural light setting. When
| you're wearing a VR display the light is right up against your
| eyes with no possibility for them to look away to relax. When
| we're normally working we can glance out at a horizon (hopefully
| - sometimes you don't have a window) or at least let your eyes
| wander off to the ceiling and defocus. It seems like giving your
| eyes a chance to relax (i.e. having narrow glasses where part of
| your view field is out of focus) can be beneficial at delaying
| the onset of Myopia. The idea of wearing one of these for eight
| hours a day feels much worse than even staring at a phone in your
| hand when it comes to eye health.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| I wonder what it will do to our skin after long time use. I get
| red goggle rings around my eyes. Is it going to crest more
| wrinkles?
|
| One improvement vs phones is there's no more bending the neck
| down to look at something in your hands.
|
| Interesting times!
| crooked-v wrote:
| That's entirely a consequence of the made-for-marketing
| headstrap instead of the headset itself. Check out companies
| like BOBOVR that make more ergonomic headstraps (not for AVP
| yet, but they've hinted at working on it).
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| This is my goal and hope, but I'll temper OP's points with how
| things stand today.
|
| Background: I got my AVP on Monday 5th (having gotten up before
| dawn to place my order when it first became available). I am a
| programmer with a multi-screen setup to maximize my usable
| workspace, which consists of editor, terminal, and browser
| windows. My hope is for the AVP to replace a set of fixed
| screens, and have in effect infinite screen space.
|
| The AVP has worse Angular Resolution than a monitor, at average
| 34 Pixels-Per-Degree (PPD) vs a monitor's 64 PPD (more details in
| iFixit's writeup [1]).
|
| This is an inevitable consequence of placing a screen so close to
| your eyes. The AVP's exceptional screen technology mitigates this
| (and for me completely eliminates the "screen door" effect that
| plagued earlier VR sets), but it can't beat Physics.
|
| So for one thing, you cannot have the legible text density of,
| say, 2 27" monitors an arm's length away. In other words, the
| equivalent amount of text will take _more space_ in your vision
| on the AVP.
|
| This is understandable. But where the AVP really has a problem,
| but I really hope they improve, is window management.
|
| Someone quipped that, from an app/window management perspective,
| the AVP is like sticking an iPad on your face, and I agree.
|
| As someone who's used to moving and resizing windows around with
| Tiling window managers on Linux and SizeUp or Moom on macOS, the
| window management of the AVP is _really awkward_. Say you put
| your editor large front-and-center, but now want to switch to a
| terminal, or resize the editor to put a reference on the side?
| The hand control may feel magical, but you 're going to be doing
| a lot of it to move and resize your windows.
|
| But these are software UX problems, and I'm gambling on Apple
| fixing them over time.
|
| [1] https://www.ifixit.com/News/90409/vision-pro-teardown-
| part-2...
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| OPfftopic: the text preview bar following your wireless mac
| keyboard around is the standout _AR_ feature for me. If that
| sounds unimpressive, I agree; I have yet to experience truly
| impressive _A_ R on the AVP. But it's still early, so I'm
| hopeful.
| wilsonnb3 wrote:
| its been 14 years on the iPad and even longer on MacOS and
| neither of them have good window management, I really don't
| think Apple will come up with a good solution on the vision pro
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| _sigh_ thanks for the reality check.
| nilkn wrote:
| MacOS has had features like expose and Mission Control for
| many years. Even something like that would be a big step
| forward for window management in visionOS.
| dagmx wrote:
| Regarding window management, what it really needs is
| (ironically) an iPad feature called Stage Manager.
|
| It feels so perfect for this use but it's a shame it doesn't
| exist
| ninkendo wrote:
| I wonder if using something like stage manager on Vision Pro
| would cause a lot of people to get motion sickness... I can
| imagine large windows flying around in virtual space three or
| 4 feet from you is going to cause a lot of disorientation for
| many people.
| dagmx wrote:
| Currently, when you recenter your view, things just fade
| out and then fade back into their new position rather than
| fly over.
|
| I would expect any window management system to be the same
| when auto tiling
| robg wrote:
| I like the comparison: _like a good pair of earphones for your
| eyes._ That's a nice succinct summary and gets to when and how
| the device operates best - when detaching from your surroundings
| helps you in some way. That marginal value every day isn't for me
| but I can see how it could be for many, especially as the price
| drops over time.
| zyklonix wrote:
| Any idea how the author was able to have multiple desktop
| screens? What app is he using for this? I thought it only allowed
| you to mirror one screen per Mac and from my experience it is
| quite laggy.
| jlund-molfese wrote:
| Looks like iPad apps!
|
| You can tell by the icon floating at the top right of the
| windows, which appears for "compatible apps" aka iPad apps.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| I use the iPad Blink Shell app, it can have multiple windows
| and renders using the VisionOS UI, making it sharper than
| mirroring a Mac's display.
|
| It helps that I have optimised a great part of my workflow due
| to me liking tablets.
|
| Like others have said, AVP is like strapping an iPad on your
| head - I happen to like my iPad, too.
| drcode wrote:
| Does the "multiple window" support of Blink work seamlessly
| on the helmet?
| zyklonix wrote:
| That's great! It even supports VS Code. How did you manage to
| use the mouse? My AVP refuses to pair with a bluetooth mouse.
| zyklonix wrote:
| It only supports the Apple Magic Trackpad:
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213998
| rkangel wrote:
| Yes you can only mirror one screen from a Mac, but he's using
| the AVP as the computing device itself.
|
| So it's not multiple desktop screens it's multiple windows from
| locally running apps.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| This is the problem(with Apple); this device, like iOS devices,
| is fenced off, so you cannot run vscode etc if you don't
| connect a MacBook. For this device it's actually worse than an
| iPad to disallow that: it's 4x as expensive as a MacBook Air
| here but I cannot run most apps I want on it while that would
| make me buy one today. I don't want another iPad (which I
| bought because it's nice and small and great battery, but if I
| cannot code on it normally, what's the point).
| charcircuit wrote:
| >is fenced off, so you cannot run vscode
|
| No, the only reason you can't run vscode is that no one has
| put in the effort to port it. It's a problem of financial
| incentives and not a problem of "fences."
| anonzzzies wrote:
| So visionOS is more open than iOS? That would be good. I
| read it was similar.
|
| Edit: so it is indeed similar/same; cannot run normal
| desktop software even though desktop cpu.
| charcircuit wrote:
| iOS could get vscode too
|
| Edit: Desktop software can be ported to other operating
| systems. Just because an operating system can't run a
| different, desktop operating system's software that
| doesn't mean it can't run desktop software. The CPU is
| used in iPads too. It is used between 3 different form
| factors.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Only the 'shell'; not all the rest that make it
| practical. There are a lot of blog posts (a yearly one
| here) of people trying to code on iPads; they all end
| badly because Apple allows nothing. It's fenched off.
| Nothing to do with lack of incentive to port Xcode; there
| are plenty of code apps on iPad, they just cannot run
| real envs (docker, anything other than toy interpreters
| etc) without rooting.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| "fences" is definitely not the best analogy. "spikes and
| minefields" would be more appropriate as Apple has explicit
| rules against apps that compile and run code, third party
| extensions would also probably be prohibited, and the
| terminal would have little use.
|
| At the end of the day what's possible under the current
| rules aren't that different from just running it in Safari,
| so why bother ?
| worksonmine wrote:
| Port it? What's different with the hardware on this device
| that requires ports of existing software? Is it a
| completely new CPU with new architecture?
| somishere wrote:
| > Yet, it is fake, as I am sitting on our top floor, a barely
| furnished room full of items belonging to a family house with two
| young kids
|
| Define dystopia.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Meh, it's not like everyone has been working from the beach or
| lakeside up until now. I'd wager it's less dystopian than your
| current setup staring at the wall of your home or office, maybe
| with a window to a view of nothing in an office you're forced
| to drive to.
| somishere wrote:
| "I guess that depends on what your definition of the word is
| is" ;)
| garbagewoman wrote:
| noun An imaginary place or state in which the condition of life
| is extremely bad, as from deprivation, oppression, or terror
| somishere wrote:
| Sure! Thank you. There's a few good definitions out there,
| some more absolute than others, but none of which quite
| capture the generally subjective nature of it. Personally
| tend to align more towards the "corrupted utopia", esp. where
| acceptance is controversial or blurred ... think the matrix
| or fahrenheit 451.
|
| But the scene I pictured when I read that line, rightly or
| wrongly, was straight out of pearl jam's do the evolution.
| It's evolution baby.
| tpmoney wrote:
| I can't think of any version of dystopia that would be defined
| by "working your comfortable office job from your multi-story
| family home while experimenting with a multi thousand dollar
| piece of high tech equipment which can provide virtual
| experiences the likes of which was mere science fiction just
| two decades earlier purchased with your own money the month it
| was released to the public" Certainly no more dystopic than the
| very idea of remote work in general.
| somishere wrote:
| think we're probably each focusing on different tropes of the
| genre here
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Still less dystopian than forcing people to commute for an hour
| to sit in noisy open offices to teleconference with other
| people not at the office. Dystopian status quos breed dystopian
| solutions, sadly.
| helsinki wrote:
| What app are you using to write code? How do you get a terminal
| without using a MacBook?
| shmoogy wrote:
| Blink or vs code server - same as on ipad
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| It's Blink, connected to a remote machine over mosh inside a
| tmux shell (and vim).
| swader999 wrote:
| I'd rather work from a real mountaintop on a crappy laptop.
| Actually, no. I'll work at work and leave it all behind on the
| mountain.
| ngneer wrote:
| Exactly!
| anonzzzies wrote:
| How about work and live on a mountain and forget about this
| idea of 'at work'?
| mrcwinn wrote:
| It's not a perfect product by any means. The question is, has
| Apple backed itself into any corners? Can the battery life or
| field of view be improved? The resolution? The weight? I think in
| all cases, Apple has a technical path forward.
|
| Despite its imperfections, wow is it fantastic. I'm writing now
| from a Mac virtual display (which, yes, is a bit blurry). But how
| could I return this thing? It's the most impressive product
| Apple's ever made and it's genuinely useful. It's not an
| expensive novelty by any means. What an achievement.
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| The virtual display is impressive, for sure.
|
| But, I think you should consider a pair of AR glasses from
| xreal or rokid. They cost a fraction of the price, have less
| latency, and you don't need to worry about battery life.
|
| They're also much much more portable. I think using AVP
| primarily as an external display is a huge huge waste.
| dangus wrote:
| Funnily enough, your Mac laptop in the real world has better
| pixels per degree of vision. If you just take the headset off
| it's more clear.
|
| The Vision Pro wants to be a VR headset that throws away the
| existing VR ecosystem. No VR controllers, no beat saber, no
| Oculus Link, no PC VR.
|
| At the same time, it wants to be a productivity machine that
| can't compile its own code and has the same software
| limitations as iPadOS.
|
| Mobile airplane computer? It fits in a backpack worse than a
| regular laptop and gets 1/10 the battery life. You could buy an
| economy plus subscription from United Airlines for 7 years for
| the same price and just use your laptop on the plane.
|
| I agree that Apple has paths forward to fix all of this, but I
| disagree that they will go down those paths. I see Apple
| products like the iPad stagnating because Apple refuses to take
| them beyond a constrained vision. Apple will never let you
| install applications outside of their walled garden and they'll
| never let you compile code on the Vision Pro.
|
| That's fine for an entertainment device like a $500 Quest 3 but
| a $3,500 "spatial computer?"
| timetraveller26 wrote:
| People spending 3.5K to code is peak capitalism.
|
| Yes, I am exaggerating a little bit, but frankly coding like this
| is kinda silly, you don't need this headset to fancy manipulate
| text presentation when the really important thing, the
| abstractions, are in your brain.
| dagmx wrote:
| People have been spending high amounts of money to code for as
| long as computers have been a thing.
|
| Tons of people buy high spec laptops, or high spec desktops
| with high spec monitors and high spec keyboards just to code.
|
| Turns out people pay for an experience that suits them.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| I've spent that much on laptops before. I don't think it's
| excessive to spend that on a device that you use every day to
| earn a large income.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| Sure it is, you don't need it to do today's work.
|
| Yet, I find it very interesting to explore what tomorrow's work
| could look like given this approach to 'spatial computing'.
|
| Because tech will eventually become cheaper and better, perhaps
| reaching a level that is won't costs more than any other piece
| of gear.
| bookstore-romeo wrote:
| I find the comparison to "headphones" for your eyes really
| interesting because it might provide a long-term view as to the
| Vision Pro's place on the computer market. Desktop speakers and
| Hi-Fi home stereo equipment are obviously still a thing today,
| and, in a few generation (and with the advent of more
| competition), the case of bigger desktops (and possibly
| laptops/tablets) might be analogous to today's headphone-
| loudspeaker duality.
| elicash wrote:
| I don't know if it's intentional, but it's a reference to a
| Steve Jobs quote from 2005:
|
| "Headphones are a miraculous thing. You put on a pair of
| headphones and you get the same experience you get with a great
| pair of speakers, right? There's no such thing as headphones
| for video. There's not something I can carry with me, that I
| can put on and it gives me the same experience I get when I'm
| watching my 50-inch plasma display at home. Until someone
| invents that, you're gonna have these opposing constraints."
|
| Walt Mossberg then mentions goggles, and Jobs says "but they're
| lousy!" (And Walt adds, "you never get a date if you wear
| them.")
| vonjuice wrote:
| Man, declare that headphones are the same experience as a
| great pair of speakers, he really was mainly a salesman
| stevage wrote:
| I'll be interested to hear whether he's still using it like this
| in 3 months.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| I'm, too and will surely follow up on my post.
| cpufry wrote:
| sigh i read that as "coming in vision pro"
| ngokevin wrote:
| When reading about headset experiences, I'd de-weigh any insights
| that are within 3 months of the first headset purchase. The first
| few dozen sessions are novel, you get a kick (and social media
| views) about sharing how completely your life has changed to fit
| the headset.
|
| More often than not, it's collecting dust on the shelf within a
| few months. Sort of like an expensive blender you were so excited
| to get, you imagined making super fruit smoothies every morning.
| Let's see how AVP fares in this regard.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| Yeah, I really like the Macbook and the iPhone, but basically
| everything else apple produces is pretty shit these days, even
| the airpods are just alright (I mean, the audio quality,
| design, and form factor are amazing, but they are super buggy
| and there are better wireless earbuds for the price).
|
| It would be a great shame if a secure, well designed, easy to
| use computer loaded with a custom-built, well supported unix-
| like distro gets trashed because the company that makes it is
| always trying to "innovate." I don't know if there's much left
| to innovate in the computer world, there is only so much you
| can do with ones and zeros. It would be better if they just
| focused on what works, reliable and secure consumer
| electronics, instead of trying to be what they were under Steve
| Jobs.
|
| Jobs is dead, he will never come back, and Apple will never be
| Apple under Jobs again. They should just try to be like the IBM
| of their space...just there, doing what they do best. An
| institution, a monolith, but not a "disruptor," as if there are
| any of those left.
| LeafItAlone wrote:
| > there are better wireless earbuds for the price
|
| Not that I've found. Maybe on individual features, but not as
| a whole product.
| p5a0u9l wrote:
| Same here. Bose ear buds noise canceling and bass are
| incredible. No comparison to the air pods. But god are they
| big and ugly.
| Intermernet wrote:
| I just did a 10 hour flight from Tokyo to Sydney and I
| wore my Bose QC2 buds for the whole flight. I watched
| some pre downloaded YouTube videos, and then fell asleep
| for about 6 hours of actually restful sleep. I cannot
| express how amazing the noise cancellation is on those
| things. I was in a 787, seat 29A, window seat, just
| behind the wing and I could barely hear the sound of the
| plane. I'm never flying without them again.
| lovegrenoble wrote:
| Can you drop a link to your model of Bose please?
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| To be fair, when I bought them it was only because I
| thought they looked cool and I already had other apple
| devices I knew they would work with; I was willing to pay
| the premium for the brand, it was a spur of the moment kind
| of thing and I never factored in competitor value. The
| funny thing about the Vision Pro was that as soon as I saw
| it I thought it, and anyone who used it, was really dumb,
| and I didn't want to be caught dead wearing it--not so for
| the airpods.
| expensive_news wrote:
| This is likely because you bought a pair of AirPods when
| they were already very popular and everyone thought they
| were stylish.
|
| I bought my first pair of AirPods very close to their
| initial release and everyone looked at me like I was an
| idiot for wearing such an ugly and expensive device that
| couldn't really do anything better than a $20 pair of
| earbuds. Do you remember everyone making fun of them at
| the announcement? It wasn't until around 2 years later
| that AirPods were widely worn and accepted.
|
| I'm not sure Vision Pro will go through the same adoption
| curve, but I am not confident that it won't happen by
| late v2 or v3.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| If V2/3 doesn't make you look like an idiot and actually
| works _for_ work _and_ leisure, then perhaps, but its
| hard to develop an VR /AR headset that would do that,
| since it inherently cuts you off from the social world in
| which the esteem of the product would be evaluated.
|
| What do we think of people who sit around with a VR
| headset on all day? We think, usually, that they are
| anti-social, that they are afraid of going outside, that
| they want to trap themselves in a world that generates
| and serves their fantasies. How does a company which
| makes so much of their money off of people associating
| their products with high social status break into a
| market that appears to be solely for those who stand on
| the other end of the continuum?
|
| The rational is contradictory: technology (according to
| the Silicon Valley playbook) profits by transforming the
| world into a place of further alienated and isolated
| individuals whose entire lives are shaped by and for tech
| companies which only exist to exploit them; and yet, such
| a world, in its total form, could never appear, since
| people _could not_ work and live in that world _unless_
| they participated in it collectively, at some level.
| Phenomenologically, we can 't view this move as anything
| more than an extreme error of judgement, a move from a
| post-jobs apple that doesn't seem to understand the magic
| of great design, the element of the sublime that
| technology can create--but it would always have to be
| this way, since the philosophy would never overcome the
| profit-motive.
|
| Its why I said that computers can only go so far. We're
| at the end of the rope of the transformational power of
| technology, and everybody knows it. The world will not
| change on the whim of the market, the market will just
| constrict and eventually kill us all.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Then you didn't care to look for them. Sennheiser, B&W and
| other traditional companies have buds that sound light
| years better than greatest tech Apple can currently
| produce, and do cost more correspondingly.
|
| On top of things like much longer lasting battery, much
| better support for advanced HD bluetooth codecs (I can plug
| them into anything like some cheap TVs anywhere). But to me
| overall sound quality is still #1 reason to invest into
| premium quality.
|
| Of course then somebody from A team comes with 'but they
| integrates greatly with my iphone' argument, which is
| probably true but not that relevant to above. My Senns
| integrate effortlessly with my Samsung phone/tv/laptops
| too, thats kind of baseline in 2024.
| andoando wrote:
| Why does anyone like wireless headphones? 3 different pieces
| to track, have to constantly be on charge, and pricey at
| that. I ended up finally buying some iems
| bowsamic wrote:
| A lot of younger people never take them out
| mdhen wrote:
| and Letshuoer S12 Pro's absolutely blow everything else
| away in that space and they only cost about $100. Best
| value in ear phones, easy.
| crimsontech wrote:
| If I'm on a call on my computer I can get up and make
| coffee without leaving the call. If my phone rings I don't
| need to switch headphones, they switch devices
| automatically.
|
| I have high quality headphones and IEMs, the headphones I
| use if I'm _really_ listening to music, maybe a couple of
| times a week. The IEMs have been in drawer for months
| without use. The wireless headphones I use every day all
| day. It's convenience.
| Hippocrates wrote:
| That's wildly different from my experience. Never lost the
| pieces or had to "track" them and the charge lasts for
| longer than I can comfortably listen to something without a
| short break.
|
| Being tethered to a phone or computer with a wire that
| pulls, catches, and makes rubbing noise through your ears
| is truly an awful relic of the past.
| gWPVhyxPHqvk wrote:
| As a train commuter, wireless headphones are a massive
| improvement over wired for my semi-daily commute. I used to
| have the headphone wires constantly getting caught on my
| bag, other people's jackets, getting twisted and knotted in
| my bag, etc.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| >. It would be better if they just focused on what works,
| reliable and secure consumer electronics, instead of trying
| to be what they were under Steve Jobs.
|
| Man, the amount of history rewriting that happens in tech
| world is actually insane.
|
| Louis Rossman literally made his career out of showcasing how
| shit apple laptops have been through the years. The evidence
| is all there. I dunno if people are just willfully ignorant
| or are actually just lying.
| karim79 wrote:
| > More often than not, it's collecting dust on the shelf within
| a few months.
|
| I can't speak for the Apple Vision Pro, I'd love to try one, to
| be honest. But I can agree with your comment.
|
| Such has been my experience with the two headsets I own - the
| Meta Quest 2, which I think is really great and serves many
| purposes, and the PSVR 2 headset, which is phenomenal for
| gaming, but pretty much useless for anything else.
|
| Both headsets have had a short-lived "wow" factor to them,
| without a doubt, but sadly, the novelty tends to wear off
| within weeks. I haven't used my Quest 2 since early 2023 (I
| think) and the PSVR 2's last use was for a game called Pavlov,
| which is simply mind-blowing, despite which, I think the hassle
| of headsets is problematic. For real gaming I go back to couch
| gaming with the Xbox or PS5, and for computer things I use
| computers.
|
| Funny thing is, I keep meaning to do more with the PSVR 2 but
| now it's actually so dusty that it puts me off, it needs a full
| cleaning at this stage :).
|
| Edit: Meta Quest -> Meta Quest 2
| nox101 wrote:
| For me, VR comes down to content. Because the market is too
| small, there is none. There's few high end titles. HL:Alyx,
| Horizon: Call of the Mountain? Sometimes you get a port but
| then it wasn't originally designed for VR and it usually
| shows.
|
| There's zero on the Quest 2/3 because it's a mobile device
| and it's not up to it and at least in my experience the link
| is not up to it either.
|
| I'm not saying there are not some good experiences there.
| Several rhythm games are fun, a couple of games designed for
| low-power mobile devices. But the fully immersive high
| quality graphics games are so few an far between. If there
| were more I'd keep playing.
| roland35 wrote:
| I still love making smoothies, it just turned out that they are
| way too many calories :(
| dijit wrote:
| I love this comment, I think you're completely right.
|
| What I love _most_ about this comment is how it caused me to
| reflect on what I use daily and get some amount of joy from.
|
| When it comes to Apple products in particular I use an Apple
| Studio display at home, I use it for 10hours per day, every
| day, and honestly I have no complaints, it's probably one of
| the best bits of technology I use daily.
|
| However, it's completely unsexy and has (at least on paper)
| extremely stiff competition. Not only that it was maligned by
| the tech media upon release.
|
| Yet, it just subtlely benefits my life because the speakers are
| excellent, the webcam is servicable (the novelty of the fact it
| tracks you never truly wears off) and the size/pixel density is
| great.
|
| It's weird that I'm waxing poetic like this about such a boring
| device, but that's kinda my point, your comment made me reflect
| about all the little tech around me that I use every day that
| just sort of shifted into the background. Quietly doing its job
| excellently.
| filmgirlcw wrote:
| Yeah, I agree. I rolled my eyes when I bought the Studio
| Display because of the price (I got the VESA option so I also
| had to factor in $200 for an Ergotron LX just so I could use
| it the way I'd want) and I'm annoyed by its lack of power
| button, its garbage web camera, and the really that it has no
| better picture quality than the v2 LG UltraFine 5K it was
| replacing, despite costing $300 more, but if it broke
| tomorrow I'd buy another one without a second thought (also
| the VESA option -- also just say no to the Nano Texture
| option). In fact, I might even get a second one this year
| because I have 3 Macs (2 M-series laptops and a 2020 5K iMac)
| and it would be nice to have one dedicated to the laptops
| instead of having to swap the cable for the TB4 dock.
|
| Until/unless Apple does fractional scaling in a way that
| doesn't really need pixel doubling to work, I will insist on
| a 5K display for a 27" monitor and the ASD really is the best
| game in town.
| theyinwhy wrote:
| So what's the benefit of the ASD if it has no better
| picture quality than the LG?
| dagmx wrote:
| Slightly brighter, much better build quality, much better
| audio and much better camera.
|
| But at the same time, I see the LG is down to $999 (I
| suspect it'll be discontinued soon if it isn't already)
| and it's debatable that the studio display is $600
| better. It's definitely $300 better though.
|
| That said, it is increasingly more difficult to buy the
| LG. So it's become less of a choice.
| sensanaty wrote:
| It's always crazy reading those kinda comments. He keeps
| maligning the product that he had to pay a premium for,
| comparing it to equivalent products that are _cheaper_
| and perform the same, yet he 's _still_ going to make his
| next purchase another, by his own admission, overpriced
| Apple product.
|
| It's mind blowing, I don't wanna reach for the low-
| hanging quips here but it really is like an Apple iCult
| type of vibe
| jb1991 wrote:
| Why "he"?
| talldatethrow wrote:
| My friend sold boats for over 10 years. He said women
| love going on boats, but he never saw a woman buy a boat
| in his life.
|
| Women love apple products, but if you look at who is
| splurging on multiple high end apple computers with
| multiple monitors it's gotta be 95% male.
| jb1991 wrote:
| But I was noticing that the username was "filmgirl".
| adastra22 wrote:
| Because "he" is grammatically correct when the gender is
| unknown.
| theyinwhy wrote:
| Well The Times They Are A-Changin'
| jb1991 wrote:
| But I was noticing that the username was "filmgirl".
| adastra22 wrote:
| Fair enough!
| growt wrote:
| Is it really? Also when the username contains ,,girl" it
| may give a hint.
| adastra22 wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality_in_lang
| uag....
| numpad0 wrote:
| singular they is preferred on Reddit but not here,
| learned hard way
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| You forget Apple is selling trust as well as technology.
| I have far more trust in an Apple product than an LG one.
| Zanfa wrote:
| Reading the comment, the impression I got was that while
| the image quality is similar between LG 5K & ASD, overall
| ASD is still worth the small premium.
|
| The 27" 5K Studio Display is in a weird category, where
| they actually have zero competitors. On paper, there's
| the LG Ultrafine, but I have yet to see one available for
| purchase in EU (I've seen "in stock", but not actually
| available), not to even mention seeing one in person. So
| basically you don't really have a choice.
| EduardoBautista wrote:
| The Apple Studio Display looks nicer. I would prefer that
| items that I own in my apartment look nice. Aluminum
| looks and feels nicer than plastic. Yes, I will pay a
| premium for that.
| durumu wrote:
| Here is the model here:
|
| - Apple's software (particularly macOS) is extremely high
| quality. Best game in town.
|
| - Their hardware is also high quality, but it is often
| overpriced.
|
| - You must use their hardware to get the best experience
| using their software.
|
| - Therefore, people might end up buying, say, the Apple
| XR display or AirPods Max even though they are overpriced
| compared to other monitors/headphones, because it gives
| you a better experience using macOS.
|
| I am a pretty huge Apple fan but I think this is pretty
| unfortunate, not gonna lie -- it kills me a little that
| macOS doesn't look sharp on my 4K monitor. But it isn't
| an iCult, it's just that the cheaper thing doesn't work
| as well with macOS.
| tanelpoder wrote:
| I don't have an ASD, but back in 2020 I bought the LG
| UltraFine 5K from Apple's website together with a laptop
| and the LG monitor's colors all had a yellowish hue to
| them. Some Internet searches and possibly their support
| forums claimed that this is normal, it's just how the
| monitor works, or something like that (yes I did try
| various color temperature and config settings - all
| yellow).
|
| Luckily this "wasn't my first monitor", so I quickly
| returned it and went back to Dell that's always been OK
| enough so I don't ever have to pay attention to which
| monitor or display setting I'm using.
| kklimonda wrote:
| You can't drive two LG 5k screens with a single cable,
| due to it lacking DSC support.
| shaunkoh wrote:
| Why no nano-texture?
| crimsontech wrote:
| It causes fringing around letters and stops things
| looking as sharp, which sort of defeats the point of
| having a 5k display for a lot of people.
| charrondev wrote:
| I guess most people just like their UI elements much
| smaller than me, I work all day on a 42" 4k display running
| 1080p@2x 120hz and I wouldn't want to shrink the UI
| elements any further. I sit ~4 feet from the display.
|
| My husband uses an iMac (27" 5k display running @2x) and I
| struggle to do anything at that resolution.
| _alex_ wrote:
| Why say no to the the nano texture? Looking at a studio
| display these days and trying to understand the option
| nunez wrote:
| Interesting. I have a Studio Display and it just feels like a
| huge compromise.
|
| There are only two 5K displays on the market that can render
| macOS at Retina resolution on a 27" panel: this one and the
| LG Ultrafine, which isn't that much cheaper. My last monitor
| was a 27" LG QD-OLED 144Hz 4K display. I LOVED that display,
| but text wasn't sharp because of the Retina resolution
| problem.
|
| I also have a semi-professional webcam setup and external
| speakers, so those being built-in does nothing for me.
|
| I just want macOS to support variable scaling like Windows
| has for, what, 15 years at least?
| mrbuttons454 wrote:
| macOS does support more than one "virtual" resolution,
| which I'd consider variable scaling. It's admittedly less
| granular than Windows, but it works well enough for me. I
| have a 27" Acer Predator 4k120 display on my shop Mac, with
| the virtual resolution set to 2560x1440.
| isametry wrote:
| There's only two scaling factors macOS can display at: 1x
| or 2x.
|
| Anything in-between is rendering at a larger resolution
| and scaling it back down for the display, resulting in a
| non-pixel-perfect image.
|
| Your shop Mac is rendering the UI at 5120 x 2880, then
| squishing that down for the Acer display. Which, apart
| from being more graphically demanding, ends up blurry and
| aliased.
|
| What Windows does is actually just changing the pixel
| dimensions of the UI elements (in steps of 10% I think?),
| which Apple has never done.
| brtkdotse wrote:
| > I just want macOS to support variable scaling like
| Windows has for, what, 15 years at least?
|
| I've tried to adopt MacBooks twice over the last three
| years and both times this has been the dealbreaker for me.
| I was flabbergasted that MacOS didn't have better support
| for it.
| densh wrote:
| BetterDisplay lets you set fractional resolutions for any
| displays on Mac. While this seems like a compromise, it
| lets you scale the ui to you preferred size independently
| of the native resolution. I use my 5k display at 85% which
| is a bit easier on my eyes than native 100%.
| monsieurbanana wrote:
| I've tried a few apps including better display to find a
| better resolution for my portable 16 inch monitor. It
| does allow you to set the resolution you want, but it's a
| bit blurry.
|
| No way to really fix it, it's just another Mac
| shortcoming. Using resolution to scale the UI is not a
| compromise, it's a mediocre workaround.
| alsetmusic wrote:
| I'd call that a shortcoming of all hardware that isn't
| retina resolution, but I know how that sounds to anyone
| who isn't bought into the ecosystem.
|
| To be clear, I criticize the hell out of the company on
| things that I think are truly bad. Their app store
| policies are a disaster. I get that gamers want
| framerates over resolution. I'm not a gamer and want the
| other thing.
| smoldesu wrote:
| It's a shortcoming of the software. Apple could claim
| it's a third-party issue if they didn't support arbitrary
| external monitors, but they do. As such it's entirely
| reasonable to expect a fallback solution for third-party
| displays that Just Works.
|
| For my money, Windows is a _terrible_ operating system
| but it embarrasses Mac and Linux thoroughly in this
| regard.
| mholm wrote:
| There are no longer just two 5k 27" displays. Per a thread
| on macrumors[1], the display panels that make up these
| displays are now available from the factories, so some
| chinese manufacturers have begun making monitors at much
| lower prices ($400, if you can get an RV100).
|
| [1]: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-complete-
| list-of-27...
| Inviz wrote:
| Dells 6k is quite alright at reasonable price. Has some
| quirks though
| nasmorn wrote:
| I love it. It is exactly the right size to have two
| windows side by side. 27" used to work but nowadays half
| a 27 is no longer enough for many web applications
| layer8 wrote:
| > There are only two 5K displays on the market that can
| render macOS at Retina resolution on a 27" panel: this one
| and the LG Ultrafine
|
| There's also the Samsung S9 now.
| Aeolun wrote:
| I just have a bog standard cheapest 4K display, and I have
| more or less the same experience.
| dgellow wrote:
| Every few years I buy Dell QHD displays 24'' second hands on
| local ads websites, I have 4 of them (not all installed at
| the same place), for an average of ~150EUR per display. They
| are definitely not sexy but work perfectly as monitors and
| hubs.
| afpx wrote:
| Why do you replace them every few years?
| LoganDark wrote:
| With ADHD, it doesn't even take 3 months. Give me one day and
| I'll never touch something again. Hell, some of the things I
| buy, I don't even use a first time, because having stuff
| doesn't actually help with motivation
| babyshake wrote:
| There will be an inflection point with devices like Vision Pro,
| where you'd rather do things you do right now with a laptop,
| tablet or TV in the Vision Pro instead of with those other
| devices. Then the other devices will be the ones gathering
| dust.
|
| The hard part is being able to know when that inflection point
| comes. But I think there's a very good chance that 10 years
| from now, it's already behind us.
| Turskarama wrote:
| Here's my prediction for this: you need to have input with
| the same fidelity and ease of use as a mouse and keyboard.
| The mouse input analogy is probably pretty close with eye
| tracking, but text input? I can't even imagine what it will
| look like to make that work as nicely as real touch typing.
| tiagod wrote:
| You can use a macbook keyboard and trackpad seamlessly with
| the headset
| WanderPanda wrote:
| It will probably look like a keyboard. Keyboards are so
| lindy at this point they didn't even adjust the layout
| (from that path-dependent mess we are dealing with), let
| alone the form factor
| nilkn wrote:
| I got an acrylic tray [0] that holds a keyboard and
| trackpad and can comfortably sit on my lap to use with the
| Vision Pro. It's truly marvelous and makes the VP feel like
| an actual laptop replacement, with the only real problem
| being that visionOS has too much iPadOS heritage and not
| enough MacOS.
|
| [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCS71K6P?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2o
| v_dt_...
| Turskarama wrote:
| Sure, but one of the big upsides of vr is the ability to
| move around a space. If you're just sitting at a desk (or
| on a couch) anyway then you might as well just have a
| couple of huge monitors. In the case of the vision pro it
| would even be cheaper to use several large monitors
| instead.
| nilkn wrote:
| The ability to move around while I'm actively wearing it
| is not particularly compelling or relevant to me. I
| didn't get it for room-scale VR games, and I tend to take
| it off when I get up anyway. I find it really amazing
| that I can set up a huge workspace on-the-fly pretty much
| wherever I want, including the couch. I have a very slick
| dedicated home office I could be in right now but I
| actually enjoy using the VP from the living room more for
| anything other than serious 9-5 work for my employer.
| lolinder wrote:
| There _might_ be an inflection point like what you describe.
| It 's also entirely possible that this is an evolutionary
| dead end like the voice interfaces that were the Next Big
| Thing a few years ago.
|
| We've grown so accustomed to viewing technology as a steady
| progression of improvements that it _seems_ natural that the
| thing that Apple is pushing today will be universal in 10
| years, but there 's no guarantee of that, and there are
| reasons to be skeptical that we'll look back at this as the
| next big leap.
|
| For myself, I'm keeping my eye out for technology that is
| _less_ intrusive into the rest of my life, not more
| immersive.
| eloisius wrote:
| My thoughts exactly. There are almost no things I do on a
| daily basis where I want to go through a cognitively
| expensive process of changing modes into an immersive
| experience. Even getting my laptop out and opening it and
| logging in feels like too much for a lot of things, and I'm
| glad that I can use my phone to tap out a short email while
| half paying attention to my lunch, commuting, etc
| sometimes.
|
| Maybe when they can shoot photons directly into my cornea
| without an intrusive set of goggles that take me out of the
| real world.
| skydhash wrote:
| I keep hoping for an expanse experience. Where computing
| is truly connected (standards and fast wireless
| transfers). Apple ecosystem is moving towards this but
| they are so closed it feels more like autobus than
| bicycle for the mind. Linux is still not an option on the
| phone form factor. And the hardware are still very
| opaque.
| steve1977 wrote:
| _if_ putting on the Vision Pro is as fast and seamless as
| grabbing a tablet or opening up your laptop I guess.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| when it's a pair of sunglasses with the Facial Studio Code
| already opened to your project, in other words.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| Too bad "Visual" is already taken.. maybe Vision Studio
| Code.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| Having something strapped to your face, that you have to put
| on and take off, is never going to be a substitute for
| working in open space unhindered.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| Why's that? They can get the weight down to barely more
| than glasses, and with good pass through video and battery
| improvements... You'll be pretty unencumbered. Certainly
| not more encumbered than being glued to your laptop on a
| desk.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| Well it's hard to debate fantasy products given the
| circularity: "if they create a product that avoids all
| these problems, then it won't be a problem!".
|
| I've not used a laptop (or computer) at a desk for
| decades, I prefer lying down, which works really well.
|
| I do wish there was something between a laptop and a
| phone though. Interfaces need to improve or innovate, but
| I don't think VR headsets are the answer. I haven't even
| touched on the nausea.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| I don't think it's a circular argument. Bigscreen VR is
| already 127 grams. This is doable in the next decade I
| think. The question is if there's a better form factor
| than something you wear on your face.
| lolinder wrote:
| Bigscreen VR appears to be an accessory that relies on an
| external device for compute and head tracking and power.
| As far as I can see it's basically just a tiny OLED
| display you strap to your face.
|
| With AVP, Apple is taking a bet that the accessory nature
| of previous attempts is why this product category failed
| and so they're trying to embed the compute and make it
| wireless.
|
| Unfortunately for utopian visions of VR goggles, we're
| running up against the limit on how small computers can
| be, so the idea of a standalone headset as light as
| Bigscreen VR is essentially science fiction at this
| point. Not to say it won't happen, but if that's what
| it'll take for this product category to take off then
| your optimism is misplaced.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| Fair enough, but form factor is indeed the issue, even
| light devices have to seal off your face, and the inner
| ear issues surely have a lot to do with that isolation.
|
| Perhaps something along the lines of zapping the back of
| the eyeballs with lasers is the answer.
| oldgradstudent wrote:
| > Why's that? They can get the weight down to barely more
| than glasses
|
| Even after 36 years of wearing glasses (current ones
| weight barely 20 gram), they still bother me, and I
| fiddle with them constantly.
| tw04 wrote:
| There will be an inflection point where you'll want all of
| your media to be 3D. Things you watch today in 2D you'll want
| in 3D and then your old 2D television will seem like a relic
| of the past. The entire industry is onboard, the shift is
| inevitable.
| eptcyka wrote:
| The production costs of creating 3D content that is
| actually making use of the extra dimension will be cost
| prohibitive for lots of types of content where 2d is used
| today. I really wouldn't care much for lots of YouTube
| content I watch being provided in 3d, half of it I already
| just listen to. As an example, look at how much more detail
| needs to be added to a room in a VR game versus a standard
| 3D game - since you have more freedom to poke around and
| look at things from more angles, stick your head in things,
| the expected level of detail is much higher. Just adding VR
| to existing games can make for a good experience, but VR
| native content will be more expensive to produce.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| That would be reasonable if there past inflections similar
| to that were we wanted all our media to move to the higher
| "dimension".
|
| For instance we've seen the arrival of movies and tv, books
| became moving visual content, games expanded from boards to
| immersive experiences etc. But the lower dimension media
| never disappeared nor significantly got irrelevant. We're
| effectively reading more words per day than any of the
| previous generation, podcasts are booming, web comics etc.
| are thriving.
|
| TV and movies were just an addition to the media landscape,
| I see AR and VR in the same light.
| pompino wrote:
| I think we're socially primed for it right now - at-least
| here in the US. Unlike other cultures where you're living
| with a large family or extended family or your parents, etc,
| life in the US is getting to be more and more solitary (IRL,
| people are still forming social connections online) for young
| people. That makes it very easy to adopt this type of tech.
| In other cultures wearing it around the house will just make
| you look like a weirdo.
| mvkel wrote:
| Couldn't agree more.
|
| I bought an AVP on day one to be used -exclusively- as a
| monitor extender for coding.
|
| It's untenable.
|
| The only way I could avoid significant neck/back pain from the
| weight was to sit in a reclining chair. That wouldn't be a bad
| coding setup, but my eye strain was pretty significant, too.
|
| I ended up returning mine.
|
| This is a necessary 1.0 to build out the app ecosystem, etc.
| but it's absolutely not ready for full-time use.
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| > The only way I could avoid significant neck/back pain from
| the weight was to sit in a reclining chair
|
| Lying on a bed would also do the trick.
| nomel wrote:
| I've had some great coding sessions on my ceiling, with my
| quest 3.
| glinkot wrote:
| Interesting! What software did you use for that? And how
| did you set your keyboard up?
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| doing some pushups also helps
| jliptzin wrote:
| I almost returned mine for that exact reason until I used it
| in bed before going to sleep. I have never fallen asleep
| faster. I know it sounds really strange that a computer
| strapped to my face helps me sleep but I guess something
| about the whole immersive environment really helps. I also
| don't feel the pressure on my head when I'm lying down.
| soneca wrote:
| Are you able to stay completely still with your face
| pointing up while sleeping the whole night??
|
| It hurts (and wake me up) in just a few minutes if I happen
| to fall sleep with my regular glasses on.
| smoldesu wrote:
| They sell those without the computer at a considerable
| discount: https://www.amazon.com/Manta-Sleep-Mask-
| Adjustable-Deepest-P...
| tempaccount420 wrote:
| You're very smug but it's obviously not the same
| experience.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Will you notice the difference when you're asleep?
| cubefox wrote:
| The irony here is that the unusual weight of the headset was
| completely avoidable. The headset has a heavy aluminium
| frame, which is a terrible idea that serves no practical
| purpose except of an aesthetic one. No other headset does
| this. For comparison, the Quest 3 is significantly lighter
| despite including a battery.
| justinclift wrote:
| Isn't aluminium better for longevity/reliability?
| cubefox wrote:
| Only if resistance to significant mechanical stress is
| required. Which isn't at all necessary for VR headsets,
| as others use plastic and have no mechanical issues with
| it.
| Fluorescence wrote:
| My father has some plastic camping dinnerware that has
| been heavily used since the 60's. It's been wildly abused
| around the world, up mountains, on beaches, by
| generations of family, kids and bitey babies.
|
| It's not even scratched. I have no idea what it's made
| out of but it's super impressive. I try not to think
| about because of whatever the biosafety standards were
| back then... but the lack of visible damage gives me hope
| not much of it has been ingested at least.
| darkerside wrote:
| Seems a poor compromise for a 1.0 product that will
| certainly be obsolete in the next 5 years
| JeremyNT wrote:
| Maybe... for the stuff that is actually made of aluminum.
|
| But I have a plastic VR headset and I'm pretty sure an
| impact bad enough to damage the plastic care is also bad
| enough to damage the electronics, which are going to be
| way more costly to repair.
|
| I'd take a plastic headset personally assuming it was
| lighter. Anything to save weight in this product
| category.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| aluminum is not an especially heavy material
| cubefox wrote:
| It is, compared to plastic that is usually used in
| headsets.
| audunw wrote:
| Aluminium is a better thermal conductor than plastic? Might
| help move some of the heat away from the face and take some
| of the thermal load off the fans?
|
| A lot of Apples decision seems to make more sense when
| considering how incredibly powerful (and thus hot) it is.
| The external battery pack (which is a 3 cell 13V pack btw)
| is definitely a consequence of that, they supposedly have
| some of the power electronics in there which helps move a
| bit of the heat generating stuff away from the face.
|
| Imagine if you wanted to make a powerful headset without a
| fan. How would you even do that in plastic? You'd
| definitely want to transport the heat out to the perimeter
| or front, and plastic would just not be the most suitable
| for that.
|
| So maybe that's the path they're looking towards? They
| might eventually be able to get rid of the fan with better
| chip technology, without compromising on compute, but then
| they need some metal to shed the heat from.
|
| Perhaps the development they're doing with titanium on
| iPhone is also a step in that direction. Letting them use
| metal without as much of a weight penalty.
| whoopsie wrote:
| Sounds like a fit issue. I code all day. Recliner, couch,
| standing. Mac link at 5k emulation. Apple assigned me 21w,
| but I found it unusable. 36w put weight on outer cheekbones
| and was finally wearable. Removing the light seal and using
| some pads as spacers is how I use it now. Larger FOV. A bit
| weight and less cantilever
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I ditched my laptop for the xreal well over two years ago. I
| will never go back. This looks a 1000 times better but too
| expensive for now.
| layer8 wrote:
| It's better in terms of visuals, but worse in terms of
| weight, bulkiness, and your faces/eyes being enclosed.
| imadj wrote:
| > collecting dust on the shelf within a few months
|
| Not even that, apparently many customers are already returning
| them[1]. Most of the hype, as usual, is tech reviewers who want
| to stay relevant.
|
| Early adopters will naturally chase any and every opportunity
| to make use of them, but in the coming months as novelty wears
| off, more issues arise, you get the (The ecosystem is just not
| ready yet)(tm) and most will be listed on the secondhand
| market.
|
| [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/14/24072792/apple-vision-
| pro...
| beloch wrote:
| It shouldn't be surprising that an AR workstation isn't as good
| as the real thing. If you're at home or at work, the AVP is
| going to sit on the shelf while you sit at your workstation.
| While an AR set can, in theory, surround you with code, you can
| only really focus on one window at a time. Old-fashioned
| monitors have had a long time to get good at providing that
| experience.
|
| Still, it would be pretty darned cool to be able to take
| something even _half_ as good on the road in a package that
| will easily fit in a backpack!
|
| I am entirely done with Apple and will not be buying any more
| of their products, but I look forward to the competition that
| AVP will foster.
| jimmySixDOF wrote:
| > Old-fashioned monitors have had a long time to get good at
| providing that experience.
|
| That's part of the problem framing the AVP as a system for 2D
| floating screens. 2D screens are good at what they do. 360
| degree 3D with Six Degrees of Freedom is a completely
| different surface area and we are still at the Horseless
| Carriage stage of development of that affordance space. There
| are a few experiments in what's possible [1] but, for the
| most part, if all you throw at these devices is a floating
| screen then the novelty wears off and we have the
| conversations we are having in this thread instead of
| thinking about what more is possible.
|
| [1] VR Immersive IDE: https://primitive.io/
| Fluorescence wrote:
| The problem is it's not a horseless carriage... it's more
| like a hang-glider or something.
|
| For the some niche things, fantastic, it's unique. Feeling
| inside a 3d scene, two handed manipulations of 3d
| objects... it's the hang-glider jumping off a mountain
| which no horse can do. If you currently render something in
| 3d on a monitor, VR might help and some new things like
| training for physical tasks might be cool too.
|
| The hang-glider just isn't useful for commuters getting
| from A to B which in this case, is office work. It's text,
| it's numbers, it's organisation, it's communication.
| Throwing things around in 3d is just a gimmick that will
| likely slow you down. Moving your head or waving your hands
| around are not better ergonomically than a good monitor,
| keyboard and seating. Using a keystroke to flip the
| app/tabs in your field of view is more comfortable than
| turning to look at your wall.
|
| > VR Immersive IDE
|
| This is like every 3d scifi UX you could see in compsci
| department since the 90s. I get it, everyone wants to
| create that cool looking scene from Prometheus but sadly
| no-one wants 4 lines of code exploded into a huge visual
| call-graph with dozens of nodes, interconnections
| everywhere and translucent text. VR won't change that. No-
| one really wants to drive around a city to find their files
| in a Gibson either.
|
| For VR, you don't want to look at text that's far away, you
| don't want to look at text at weird angles... so what is a
| 3d environment adding? The ideal is to bring perfectly
| sized legible text at a comfortable focal distance into
| your gaze, that's what an automobile will need to do.
| csydas wrote:
| i took a different opinion after the article -- i was of the
| same opinion before it but the article gave me some ideas i'd
| actually like.
|
| i'm very much so a bit easily distractable and i do tend to
| wander and move locations while i work at home. i actually
| has thought the vision pro was tethered completely and 100%
| dependent on another apple device but i guess not entirely?
| that would be appealing for me to have very light work space
| that moves with me for similarly light work (chats, emails,
| etc)
|
| looks a bit too goofy for me for public use but i'm just shy)
| but the article did help me see a vision for using the vision
| pro. better than apples ads
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| > I am entirely done with Apple and will not be buying any
| more of their products, but I look forward to the competition
| that AVP will foster.
|
| What is your reason? I am genuinely curious. I used to think
| that using open devices (Linux, GrapheneOS) gives me the
| convenience of being able to do everything I want. But over
| time I came to realize that Apple optimizes their devices for
| one happy path they envision, and if you don't stray off that
| happy path (e.g. on iPhone you cannot sideload, can't have
| background jobs), the convenience can be even greater than
| the possibilities an open design offers (native terminal,
| root access in Android). It is a local maxima. Thus I own an
| iPhone. On the computer side I own a PC, but that's because
| Linux isn't yet fully supported on Macs. What is your
| reasoning?
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| The way I see it, by the time AVP is available in Europe, there
| will probably be sufficient data from US users to give me an
| idea as to if it's worthwhile.
|
| So far hearing vastly mixed reviews about its "balance" on the
| users head - when I wear night vision goggles or similar
| devices I have to use a counter mass at the back of the helmet
| to make it comfortable. It seems the AVP doesn't have such a
| balancing weight?
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| I was thinking that it might be possible to mount the battery
| to the back of the headset, like you see on various other
| headsets, which might counterbalance it. But because so many
| keep talking about how heavy the headset already is, I think
| this might introduce new issues, especially if you turn your
| head quickly.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Also, de-weigh anything Apple branded significantly.
|
| You can easily code on Quest 3 if you really wanted to do
| AR/VR, and could do it on Quest Pro as well a year ago. While
| its true that Vision does offer better resolution, lets not
| pretend that people who are trying the Vision Pro have
| significant experience with AR/VR headsets, chasing the ability
| to work anywhere. Its brand fanboyishness at its core: "Apple
| made therefore its good and usefull".
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| Speaking of Blender, does anyone know some good tutorials?
| dgellow wrote:
| It's also a first generation device, often a good idea to just
| wait a bit, if it is such a revolutionary tool you won't miss
| much by skipping the first version (other than feeling cool
| that you were in the first users).
| keyle wrote:
| Oy sounds like you wrote the fate of my DK2.
| spookie wrote:
| For me, my Valve Index has completely changed how I do 3D
| modelling, I suppose this would do the same for many people.
|
| We programmers are quite the outsiders, and sometimes its hard
| for us to understand how others see computers.
|
| It's better to be patient before jumping to conclusions, this
| goes for first impressions or what we think it's gonna happen.
| rxyz wrote:
| Most programmers are anything but outsiders. It's not a niche
| profession anymore
| dartos wrote:
| Being a programmer necessarily changes how you approach and
| interact with computers.
|
| After a while (and not a long one) you develop a serious
| usability bias since you can intuit what a program is doing
| and how best to interact with it.
|
| The longer you work in software, the harder it is to
| accurately imagine how a non programmer uses a computer.
|
| That's why the classic "only users could cause this error"
| jokes exist.
| sfn42 wrote:
| The way i see it, that's just a huge advantage.
|
| My partner works as a medical research assistant. They
| had filled data into a huge spreadsheet in a software I
| think was called IBM SSES or something along those lines.
| Basically an excel spreadsheet, with hundreds of columns
| and tens of thousands of rows.
|
| One of the analyses they wanted to run wasn't working
| correctly so she was tasked with filling in 0s in place
| of empty cells. She was expecting to spend 2-3 weeks
| doing this. She mentioned it to me, I've never seen this
| software before in my life but it took me 15 minutes to
| figure out how to do three weeks of manual work
| instantly. Just googled it and followed some
| instructions.
|
| Being able to understand software is a useful skill. We
| should find ways to bring the average person up to speed,
| help them understand what computers can do so they too
| can see a task like that and be like "there's no way the
| software doesn't have an easier way to do that" instead
| of wasting time doing pointless busywork.
| lolinder wrote:
| You're pointing to a task that is basically the platonic
| ideal of a work task that would benefit from VR and then
| saying that _programmers_ are the ones who are unusual?
|
| The vast majority of normal people's compute tasks for work
| could be done on an iPad with a keyboard. The vast majority
| of their compute tasks for play just require a smartphone. 3D
| modeling is already a huge exception to the norm in that it
| needs serious compute power and in that people already often
| use specialized equipment for it, and to top it off it's a
| task that is _actually_ hampered by using a 2D projection on
| a flat screen.
|
| Most tasks are more like coding than they are like 3D
| modeling.
| al_borland wrote:
| This has been my reply to most people asking me if I'm going to
| buy a Vision Pro. It seems like after a week or two I'm going
| to want to do something, and a TV, laptop, or phone is good
| enough... I won't want to go through the ceremony of putting on
| the headset and entering that environment to do some basic
| stuff, especially not if there is a remote chance I'll be
| multitasking with stuff in the real world.
|
| That said, I tried one on at the Apple Store the other day and
| the immersive stuff was really cool and I'd like to see more of
| it. But I think it makes sense to wait for the amount of
| content to increase and the price to come down.
| masto wrote:
| To be honest, I'm kind of at that point. At first I was using
| it every day because it was new and I was curious, then I was
| using it every day because I wanted to give it a good try,
| then I was still using it but increasingly thinking "can I
| find any way in which this is better than just using a
| computer/iPad?". As of this morning, I'm writing this comment
| on my laptop, because going into the other room and strapping
| on googles feels like a chore, not a desirable activity.
|
| I don't regret the purchase; I did not expect it to change my
| life, and I've actually had my skepticism about spatial
| computing turned around. I hope there is a future where we
| can do the same things in a less physically cumbersome way.
| bsdpufferfish wrote:
| This comment does not address anything in the article or say
| anything of substance.
|
| Everything is more exciting when it's novel. That's part of the
| fun of consumer electronics, games, movies, etc.
| easylogin wrote:
| I'd generally agree, but it definitely depends on how the
| device is being used.
|
| My VR headsets don't see much usage outside of simracing which
| I'd consider a hobby more than just gaming. So my point is
| that, "working" might present that same routine which
| demos/gaming/facehugger yt with low return on novelty.
| ngneer wrote:
| Interesting perspective, but not enough for me to be sold. I
| never understood how one can be at work and expect to be enjoying
| lovely scenery at the same time. Those are mutually exclusive for
| me, especially when coding or hacking. My mind can only be one
| place at a time. If only we could set aside the computer and
| truly be in nature... Oh, wait, we can...
| bharrison wrote:
| Not for nothing, I'm a fan of my early gen xReal air, though
| mostly for an on-the-go coding use case.
|
| I link it up to my phone, wire up a 60% keyboard and fire up a
| VPN/ssh. The Galaxy DeX environment is pretty usable for other
| apps, and a BT mouse can alleviate the goofiness of the "phone as
| a touchpad" control scheme.
|
| I've used it with an HDMI/usb-c cable from my desktop and it
| works just as well, though attempting to switch between virtual
| and real displays through the glasses is headache-inducing at
| best.
|
| I'd say you accomplish 60% of the effect of the AVP,
| conservatively.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I don't know how it compares to the avp but as an old guy, the
| xreal looks like normal sunglasses. Most people just come sit
| next to me and talk (even though there IS a massive keyboard in
| front of me) as though I am just having a coffee in the sun. I
| like it because it is light, small, very long (my phone)
| battery life. I am afraid I will like avp better though.
| elliottkember wrote:
| It's summer here in New Zealand, and I have been using my AVP to
| code outside in the sunshine. There's no monitor glare and I'm
| not stuck inside. It's great.
| vundercind wrote:
| Wow, this is the first thing anyone's written about the AVP
| that's made me go "maybe I _would_ use this kind of device..."
|
| I didn't even think about how nice they'd be to use outside on
| sunny days, compared with a laptop (or, coupled with one).
| justanotherjoe wrote:
| yes, but isn't part of what makes being outside nice is some
| measure of sunlight on your eyes?
| vundercind wrote:
| Eh, I'm usually in fairly dark sunglasses anyway. Trying to
| hold the worst of the cataracts off until my 70s if I can.
| maximus-decimus wrote:
| Personally, it's more the sun on my skin that's pleasant.
| kromem wrote:
| Of course the irony is that being "outside" is actually
| watching a live video recording of it from outer cameras on a
| screen in front of your face.
|
| I'm not necessarily criticizing that - more thinking that
| we're likely approaching a fidelity threshold where you no
| longer care it's a screen (I still don't think we're quite
| there yet and suspect this is just one gen before the device
| that will survive the few months in VR great filter).
| bowsamic wrote:
| Okay but sight isn't everything, your body is still outside
| newshorts wrote:
| Had similar experiences:
|
| Running late, took a webex call from the back of my minivan on
| my MacBook Pro. Except I had enough screen real estate with the
| virtual monitor to do work during the boring parts. The best
| part was going full immersion and hearing the rain falling on a
| high mountain lake in between people speaking.
|
| I also usually wake up overnight and want to work, but can't
| because my office is located in the master bedroom. Now I can
| sit on my couch and not have to hunch over.
|
| Finally, I took my dog to the dog park and worked with no
| screen glare and big virtual display
|
| Also, watching movies on the moon is pretty cool.
| dwaite wrote:
| Flip side, that could lead to a really interesting tan line.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| Anti glare covers for laptop monitors are significantly
| cheaper.
| cubefox wrote:
| The main problem with using ordinary monitors outside is that
| they are never bright enough.
| ahveenew wrote:
| I second this, really nice to be a webinar participant on a
| sunny park lawn with a cinema sized zoom window in front of
| you.
| sircastor wrote:
| I rented a Quest 2 a couple of years ago to try out programming
| in it. I'd read a post someone made about his spending 8 hours a
| day in it.
|
| For me it wasn't quite enough. The fresnel lenses make "God rays"
| at the edges and the text was readable, but not pleasant to read.
|
| I'm planning sometime to try the Quest 3. The Vision Pro seems
| like it might be the best option because it's purpose built for
| that. Also I'm a Mac user and imagine the experience to be whole.
| buffington wrote:
| I have the Quest 2 and the text isn't legible enough for me to
| write code for any length of time.
|
| I work with someone who has said "if the Quest 2 was a 0 on the
| usability scale, the Quest 3 is an easy 8 - it's that much
| better." I've not tried it myself, but I don't think my
| coworker is exaggerating.
| kevinmershon wrote:
| I have worked for hours in Immersed in both the quest 2 and
| 3. The 3 is considerably more comfortable on the head and
| eyes. I constantly had to take the quest 2 off for a breather
| antman123 wrote:
| your coworker isn't "wrong" but that scale is off. If Quest 2
| is a 0, Quest Pro is a 4.5, Quest 3 is a 6 and the AVP is an
| 8.
|
| (edited) I still could not program for 2 hours comfortably on
| Quest 3. I can do that on the AVP
| KronisLV wrote:
| > I have the Quest 2 and the text isn't legible enough for me
| to write code for any length of time.
|
| The comment above about "god rays" is correct in my
| experience, as well as the lenses being blurry towards the
| edges due to how they're made.
|
| However, I realized that I need prescription lenses for VR,
| because while I have -0.75 in one eye, that's still enough to
| throw the overall experience off a lot (and the glasses that
| I have are too wide for the headset).
|
| Aside from that, what helped me immensely is the Immersed
| app: https://immersed.com/ where the actual environment is
| rendered on the Quest, whereas the actual monitors are
| streamed over from the PC which helps immensely with how
| legible things are. SteamVR and the Oculus Link apps are both
| trash in comparison, there's aliasing, shimmering, or
| everything ends up being way too blurry. I tried using the
| Horizon Workrooms app, but it wouldn't work because I have 4
| monitors and it only supports up to 3. There's also the
| Virtual Desktop app which might be good, but I didn't feel
| like paying for it at the moment.
|
| So yeah, Quest 2 starts out at a disadvantage compared to
| other options (aside from cost, I guess), but there are
| factors that can absolutely ruin it, such as using the wrong
| method of displaying things. Also Quest 2 is just a little
| bit on the heavy side, or at least feels that way after
| prolonged usage, with the default face interface, even with a
| custom head strap.
| aksss wrote:
| Yeah, I'd love someone to chime in about Q3. AVP and
| whassisname's video got me thinking more about it.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I have done about a year of coding on the quest 2 fulltime
| daily in Immersed and it was fine; now I skipped to the xreal
| which I like better. I don't have a Vision Pro or quest 3 yet
| but I like the portability of the xreal so much now...
| hnfong wrote:
| > I'd read a post someone made about his spending 8 hours a day
| in it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28678041 ?
|
| Might be worth comparing to for those who've tried the AVP.
| killjoywashere wrote:
| I participated in a couple Vision Pro demos at Apple HQ prior to
| launch day. One with a security focus, one with a health
| applications focus. The security profile, btw, is super boring:
| on the network, it looks like an iPad.
|
| Health applications: pretty cool for education, maybe other
| things, eventually.
|
| What I think would be compelling, for me, is the ability to use
| it on travel. To be on a plane and not have to worry about
| breaking a laptop screen when the person in front of me tips
| their seat back, not have to worry about someone shoulder surfing
| me. In yet another boring hotel room? Let's escape!
|
| Now, the problem is that, in many meetings, a laptop is barely
| acceptable as it is (in some cases, not at _all_ acceptable). So,
| I still have to bring a laptop. So, my backback is now ...
| heavier? I 'm already carrying multiple devices required by
| various security policies.
|
| Is this juice worth the squeeze? I can't bring myself to spend my
| own money on this. And I helped develop an AR device. I'd be
| happy to use it if the company bought it. But you're in for
| almost $5k after applecare, accessories, etc.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| Where do you work where laptops at meetings aren't acceptable?
| Not seeing laptops is an extremely reliable red flag for me.
| whateveracct wrote:
| why exactly?
| Supermancho wrote:
| If a meeting is simplistic enough not to need planning and
| action items, you don't need a meeting. Make a conference
| call.
|
| If action items are simplistic enough that you don't need
| to consider calendars for the future, don't need the
| ability to _show_ the status of existing concerning items,
| and any reliable information is conveyed via paper, you 've
| got multiple problems.
|
| Mostly you have a culture problem, to put it simply.
| resonious wrote:
| I'd probably make the opposite argument. If I'm messing
| with my computer during a meeting then the meeting
| probably didn't require me to be physically present. At
| that point it could've been either remote or async
| facilitated by software.
|
| This is unless I'm running the meeting and my laptop is
| plugged into the big screen.
| whateveracct wrote:
| multitasking is a myth. you can't futz with a computer
| and pay attention.
| nurumaik wrote:
| Singletasking is a myth. I can't keep attention without
| any background task. If not computer, I will doodle on
| paper or fidget
| data-ottawa wrote:
| Doodling at least appears to help with memory recall.
|
| Anecdotally I've always found that when I see a doodle
| made during a meeting or lecture I get a much more vivid
| recollection of the actual content.
|
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/09022621003
| 9.h....
| numpad0 wrote:
| For people with autofocus, not hyperfocusing and slamming
| desk is harder than trying to focus.
| Supermancho wrote:
| It depends on what you mean by multitasking and the
| expectations. People multitask from birth.
| yokoprime wrote:
| People not taking notes is a huge red flag at least, but
| handwritten notes are fine so laptop is not a must
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Sounds like a Xreal pro would get you 90% of the way there ?
|
| At 49ppd it's on par with AVP if the goal is just to mirror a
| laptop display.
| parallaxapps wrote:
| Love to see this! We're the developers of Inspect Browser [0],
| the browser with dev tools you see in the screenshots. Our goal
| is to make tools to help web developers work on iPads, iPhones,
| and now Vision Pro- thrilled to see it in action!
|
| Glad to answer any questions.
|
| [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/inspect-browser/id1203594958
| d--b wrote:
| I just had an idea.
|
| I was somewhat intrigued by why people would recreate the same
| kind of setup in AR with monitor screens. Ok you get more of
| them, but at some point more screens is just distracting.
|
| What if instead this was the occasion for a true AR experience.
| Like instead of popping up a monitor, you can open a textbook. As
| in a physical text book sitting on your desk, each page would be
| covered in qr codes or whatever uniquely identifying that page.
| Then the vision pro could fill in the page with a computer
| generated UI: buttons, text inputs and so on.
|
| And then you could spread all these pages around your desk and
| actually touch them, and carry them around. Imagine your code
| being on a sheet of paper instead of in one window.
|
| Imagine your trello board being actual postit notes stuck on your
| wall that you can unstick and edit.
|
| Imagine your wall full of papers, each of them showing some
| monitoring aspect of your system.
|
| Like all your browser tabs are displayed on the wall.
|
| Jesus I am excited
| billconan wrote:
| the problem is, virtual screens can float in the air. A
| physical piece of paper can't.
| ugh123 wrote:
| I wouldn't want to deal with losing papers, ripping them, etc.
| why not have the AR create them for you? Seems like you want
| some extra realism surrounding your screen space. So have a
| life-like book where individual pages (easy to turn hopefully)
| are different browser tabs.
| d--b wrote:
| Replacing a paper would be just like opening a new browser
| tab.
|
| A virtual book can't give you the same level of interaction
| as a physical one. Virtual interaction are clunky at best.
| karim79 wrote:
| Sounds like something you can have or enjoy in real life, and
| without having an expensive 600-650g weight on your head. (I do
| like the idea of virtual postits, mind you).
| d--b wrote:
| What do you mean I can have this in real life? I am talking
| about having a bunch of paper sheets, each being its own
| small screen.
| vedran wrote:
| Sounds almost like https://dynamicland.org/ or
| https://folk.computer/.
| precompute wrote:
| It would be much easier to define a virtual keyboard that helps
| you switch layouts.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Is the meta offering really so good, just poorly advertised?
| karim79 wrote:
| Let's face it, the AVP is absolutely necessary for any dev who is
| truly serious about creating quality apps for the AVP.
|
| Those apps might not take off just now, but in a generation or
| five, the pioneering app creators might be laughing at the rest
| of us. Or at least until Apple decides to take down their apps
| due to sudden ToC changes. Just think of the plethora of reasons
| AVP apps could be taken down for 'failing to comply with safety
| standards' and the like.
| dcchambers wrote:
| I only did the 30 minute demo in the Apple store, but I found the
| brief minutes of looking at text in safari to be pretty bad with
| regards to eye strain.
|
| Watching videos was fine because I felt I could just let my eyes
| relax, but trying to focus on text was anything but fun.
|
| I have contacts and am not convinced that the fit/focus I had was
| correct, but it was not a good first impression from a
| "productivity device" perspective.
|
| Apple is going to have a problem with how finicky VR headsets
| are.
| elif wrote:
| Unless all these returns make it super affordable on the
| secondhand market, it seems like waiting for meta quest 4 pro
| next year might be the play.
|
| For the vision pro price you can afford one for home and another
| for the office.
| mrcwinn wrote:
| Another thing that fascinates me about the Vision Pro: its looks.
| It's at once futuristic - 3D knits, curved glass encased by
| aluminum - and yet also reminds me of something out of the 80s.
| Actually, it looks to me like a Mac. Aspects like the solo band's
| dial, maybe. Or maybe it's something you'd see in Back to the
| Future Part 2. Post modern yet nostalgic. I can't quite wrap my
| head around it, no pun intended.
| seydor wrote:
| For people looking for an elegant device with excellent
| passthrough to wear on the street, i suggest this
| https://www.dior.com/en_gr/fashion/products/00X0056HOGOG_C11...
| ETH_start wrote:
| As a first take: this is incredible, magical. Even if subtle
| problems make this iteration impractical for sustained use, it is
| clearly a bellwether for things to come.
| baby wrote:
| I tried it and it hurt my face like hell in 10min. It's uber
| heavy. I had a Quest 1 and would use it for hours without any
| issues.
| paganel wrote:
| He has a little daughter around and he's staying with that
| concoction around his face, so that said kid won't be able to see
| her dad's eyes but instead she'll get to see that electronic
| thingie. Very bleak.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| Fair point, I am certainly not using Vision Pro all day while I
| am with my kid - but the point I tried to make is that the
| rooms can contain items (e.g. toys, etc) that I haven't placed
| there... the warning of Vision Pro gives for me bumping into
| stuff is nice.
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| It sounds like it might be pretty hard to exceed 3.3K PPI and yet
| it's not nearly enough. Would it be possible to pull the headset
| a little further off the face and just counter balance it to get
| better PPD?
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Is that Mirror Lake then?
| tomcam wrote:
| I wonder if it might be a godsend for people who can't work in
| open office plans
| densh wrote:
| I sense some irony in spending extra time on commute only to
| put a headset that hides all the surroundings of the open
| office from you and immerses you in a virtual environment.
| BossingAround wrote:
| Off topic, but when you click a photo in this blog, that's a
| proper nightmare. There's no way to get back to the article, and
| the back button exits the whole page.
|
| Talk about bad UX.
| willemlaurentz wrote:
| Thanks for the feedback, I'll fix it!
| evang7 wrote:
| This is just not going to work. Whatever the experience may be,
| in this universe, it is not good for the eyes to be focused at a
| screen a few cm away for hours on end.
| ianlevesque wrote:
| The focal distance is more like six feet on most headsets.
| That's further than my physical monitors are.
| DerCommodore wrote:
| Not sure this my device, with such gigantic windows
| yokoprime wrote:
| Coding with super heavy ski-goggles? No thanks... there's a
| reason i take off my goggles when not skiing
| machiaweliczny wrote:
| I thinking about using it for coding 2h at my balcony to get some
| sun exposure. When using macbook I am annoyed due to reflections.
| Does anyone know how pass through works in sunlight?
| silisili wrote:
| > You can choose to let the real outer world in or filter it out,
|
| Yeah I do that by putting my monitor near a window, and using my
| special ability to move my ocular organs to decide what I get to
| see. It saves me 3k dollars and having to wear some awkward
| device on my head.
| justinclift wrote:
| Hopefully Asahi Linux will run it on before too long. :)
| fho wrote:
| One thing that immediately jumps out to me is that he had to
| increase font size a lot compared to what you'd use on a normal
| screen.
|
| I wager the guess that this is due to the "low" resolution that
| HMDs have. The last HMD I used was a HTC Vive Pro and there I
| could still see individual pixels. I have "high resolution eyes"
| (150-160% vision), but still I would assume that the resolution
| is still too low to render sharp text at a distance.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| https://www.ifixit.com/News/90409/vision-pro-teardown-part-2...
|
| There's some math there. The ppi equivalent is rather low
| despite the rather high resolution and ridiculous density of
| the displays themselves, after blowing it up to 100 degrees of
| FOV it ends up being much lower "density" than anything else
| you're used to looking at
| dzink wrote:
| What software do you use for development on the AVP? Do you
| connect it to your computer or use apps alone (terminal, ide,
| etc)?
| gdubs wrote:
| I've been working a lot in Apple Vision Pro, using Xcode and also
| spatial visionOS windows for various things like messaging,
| browsing, etc.
|
| Personally, with my ZEISS inserts for my prescription, the text
| is incredibly sharp. I often will forget it's a virtual display
| in front of me, and not my actual monitor. This seems to vary for
| people, but since I didn't have my ZEISS prescription on day one,
| and I got to experience the before and after - I REALLY wonder
| how many people have worse eyesight than they realize, or are
| thinking that using the thing without their glasses is not making
| a difference. It absolutely makes a huge difference.
|
| In terms of comfort, it took a little while since I didn't go to
| the Apple Store, but it finally 'clicked' and I have a feel for
| how to wear it comfortably. Also, it's less forgiving of bad
| posture. So, you need to allow yourself time to experiment with
| how to wear it because it's worth it. It feels comfortable to me
| now - I spent hours in it yesterday.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| My freaking god.
|
| If the weather is good, I can take my gear + NReal Air places and
| not just into the dusty attic.
|
| True, in good weather it also means mosquitoes and gnats, but you
| can repel them.
|
| Real experiences for freakin' .1x the price, and it works in
| Linux too.
| diamondfist25 wrote:
| Once pornhub releases its immersive exp, sales will go thru the
| roof
| whoopsie wrote:
| Don't get it. So many reviewers have the tiniest of ide windows
| up, like on a 11" laptop. When I code in Vision Pro, I can set 5k
| resolution to the Mac link since my studio is hooked to a studio
| display. I'll get over 100 readable lines, similar to a vertical
| 4k monitor.
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