[HN Gopher] Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their el...
___________________________________________________________________
Juvenile great apes love to tease and annoy their elders, study
finds
Author : pseudolus
Score : 153 points
Date : 2024-02-14 11:48 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| 082349872349872 wrote:
| Our teachers used to admonish us "no monkeying around" and "no
| horse play". The literal connection for the first was pretty
| obvious, even to us north american kids, but I was in my twenties
| before I learned that the latter refers to geldings' preferred
| method of play: biting little bits of fur off each others' faces.
| yungporko wrote:
| i've also seen this behaviour in rats, cats, and dogs. it's the
| cutest thing ever.
| topspin wrote:
| Kittens are demonic and will pester adult cats for as long as
| they can stay awake. Mature cats always end up taking refuge on
| elevated perches kittens can't reach.
| sieste wrote:
| > From 75 hours of footage taken at San Diego and Leipzig zoos,
| scientists documented 142 clear instances of great apes teasing
| their compadres
|
| Less than 2 teases per hour! I wish some juvenile homo sapiens I
| know were that well behaved.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| The article indicates that you might have to react sooner, for
| them to stop sooner.
|
| I remember when I was younger, and I did that, but because I
| was their third child they were kind of already annoyed, so my
| parents' reaction was immediate and usually quite shouty.
|
| I do find it adorable seeing these juveniles annoy the elderly.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| Game theory tells us the most effective strategy is matching
| their energy until they shift modalities.
|
| Sometimes, adults deny this truth to their own detriment
| because they're "smart" or "civilized".
| sieste wrote:
| Interesting, what's the game theory argument for this
| strategy?
| zmgsabst wrote:
| Iterated prisoner's dilemma.
|
| The optimal strategy is signaling alliance (to receptive
| partners); after that, it's reciprocating behavior.
|
| Teenagers (and many adults) aren't willing to ally, so
| we're left with reciprocating. Until they accept being
| allies is a good idea.
| CrazyStat wrote:
| Game theory does not tell us that tit for tat is
| generally optimal. It tells us that it is optimal for a
| specific game with specific rules and payouts.
|
| It is a mistake to try to translate that to using a tit
| for tat strategy in general, where the rules and payouts
| are usually quite different.
| _Algernon_ wrote:
| It's not even always the optimal strategy playing
| prisoner's dilemma. If all your opponents are playing
| "always defect", playing Tit-for-tat will consistently
| lose (because of the initial good-faith attempt at
| cooperation).
| knightoffaith wrote:
| Right - if I recall, the story is that there were
| computer-simulated tournaments in which different
| strategies for playing the iterated prisoner's dilemma
| were pitted against each other, and tit-for-tat is the
| strategy that emerged to be the winner. So it's an
| empirical result showing that it is generally the most
| successful strategy, not mathematically shown to be
| optimal against every strategy.
| tremon wrote:
| It's not about the specific game nor the specific payout.
| When raising children, it's more important to
| teach/demonstrate that negative behaviour does have
| negative consequences.
| pharrington wrote:
| >Game theory tells us
|
| What game is being played? What are the rewards for winning?
| codersfocus wrote:
| 1: Can I get their attention 2: Not being hassled for your
| attention
| keepamovin wrote:
| Having a part-grey-beard manager role of a team with junior
| software engineers, I can attest that this is true hahahahaha! :)
| throw_pm23 wrote:
| Oh, I have also seen this with the juvenile great apes in my
| family.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| The only peace in this family of apes is when them big brother
| ape and the little brother ape are in different places.
|
| Sigh.
| glimshe wrote:
| Looking at my teenager kid and his friends, I question whether
| teenagers are actually human...
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| >If, for instance, a young ape teases another and the second one
| does not respond, it tells the first individual how far one can
| go with the second individual, providing vital information about
| growing up within a social group and establishing hierarchies.
|
| Will apply this at workplace.
| prepend wrote:
| It's funny being the parent of teenagers and witnessing this
| behavior. It's frequently frustrating and hurtful so it helps to
| realize that it's just part of life and not something truly
| directed at me.
|
| It's the simple things like ape genes, and having basic needs
| met.
|
| I kind of feel like it's all this little stuff that bubbles up.
| Like keeping inflammation low in general.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| First, they annoy the elders.
|
| Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and
| communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my
| children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it
| flow.
|
| I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25
| or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when
| through to raise them.
|
| Please comment only to confirm this, I am desperate.
| thih9 wrote:
| That is correct, at some point after 25 their behavior shifts.
| The change is extreme, eventually they complain about other
| child/teenage humans and forget they themselves were in that
| stage not that long ago.
| wenebego wrote:
| Can confirm, you got this
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| The juveniles suffer from some of the weaknesses of their
| parents and _all_ of the weaknesses of the species.
|
| The context of the social group may also have instilled poor
| social habits in both the juveniles and the elders.
|
| When the elders have gathered enough simple experiences to
| understand these factors clearly instead of simply seeing the
| juveniles as being unquestionably destined for greatness in
| Learning and Civilisation, it is likely that a real social bond
| can be formed.
|
| Improved communication and gestures of mutual caring have often
| been observed subsequently.
| beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
| I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be
| something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely
| personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can
| also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality.
| Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's
| genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them,
| give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in
| their interests, most teens end up totally well adjusted by the
| time they finish high-school.
|
| (Also, I bet your teens would agree that your efforts are
| "inhumane")
| qball wrote:
| >the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like
| a meme
|
| It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an
| excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones".
|
| Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-
| industrial society (current and historic) because that's when
| it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in
| Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the
| people from 14-25 are not developing correctly.
|
| The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem
| exists.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| > Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-
| industrial society (current and historic) because that's
| when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a
| surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a
| decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing
| correctly.
|
| I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in
| politically and economically advanced countries they
| develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People
| who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance
| to mature.
| DiscourseFan wrote:
| I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most
| people are having the most sex (at least statistically),
| its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't
| gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high
| self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world
| ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and
| make some of the most important social connections in your
| life.
|
| It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its
| definitely true that even if those teenagers _appear_ to be
| polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a
| teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all
| the time, how little you really knew about the world, even
| if you were nice in public. I don 't think those basic
| impressions you get are definitive.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that
| gets worse the further you go back with people living in
| prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of
| violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very
| early both because early societies needed every hand
| available just to secure enough food but because you might
| not have long.
|
| The operation of such societies should be regarded as an
| optimization for current circumstances rather than an
| optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly
| suited you are going to have to justify that position on
| its own merits.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| One essential - existential - skill that children learn is to
| please ADULTS (Authoritarian Domineering Unseeing Ludicrous
| Tedious Superhypocritals). Their actual survival (food,
| shelter, safety), their welfare, their happiness depends
| extremely on Adults. If you were in their shoes in regard to
| some authority - especially an authority that behaves as
| badly as Adults - you would learn too.
|
| They learn how to not upset Adults (and how to effectively
| upset them too), how to be pleasing, how to stay out of
| trouble, how to utterly lie and not get caught. Teens are
| advanced children in this respect.
|
| Now you might think you are too smart to be fooled, and that
| of course is your downfall (didn't you read in school about
| hubris and arrogance?). The kids are humans, it is very high
| stakes for them and they study and hone every technique. For
| them it is their most productive skill. You are massivly
| outgunned. Adult.
|
| You might think you are good-willed and trustworthy, but you
| are inescapably an _Adult_. You have that unchecked power and
| have been corrupted by it. Even if you are truly a friend now
| you can switch on that power in a moment if something bothers
| you, at your whim, by your mood. It 's like petting an
| unrestrained lion; no matter how calm and playful it seems,
| licking you, nuzzling you, purring ... you are paying very
| close attention and tailoring every move to its pleasure.
| What if something scares it?
|
| I work to maintain great empathy for children's position
| (hard to do, because I am corrupted by unchecked power). When
| interacting, I keep my mouth shut - a whispered syllable
| dominates the conversation, even if to provoke resistance. I
| listen attentively: are they speaking with their own voice,
| for their own cause, of their own perspective? A good signal
| is if it's too pleasing, if it fits so beautifully and
| joyfully in my beliefs, relieving all tension - here is a
| child who understands! Lol. Other people, especially with the
| vastly different experience of a different generation and of
| childhood, will have very different ideas and perspectives,
| many hard to understand or uncomfortable. Just think what you
| sound like to them.
|
| When kids do that pleasing thing, what response do you see?
| You see Adults compliment them - 'what fine children!' The
| Adults are suckers, and if you think back to your teenage
| years, you know it. Adults are so easy.
|
| There's another issue here. I was once at a casual Adult
| dinner party and a couple had brought their only child, a 13
| year old. The child, as far as I could tell, was the Adults'
| best friend and they said as much. I tried engaging the child
| away from their parents and give them some space to be
| themselves, to be valued as themselves. They said they wanted
| to be there, with Adults (lol), because 'who wants to hang
| out with 13 year olds?' So truly heartbreaking.
| bdjsiqoocwk wrote:
| Sorry your experience with kids left you so jaded. Not all
| kids are like that.
| kibwen wrote:
| If your parents are still around, ask them how they dealt with
| it when you were going through that phase.
| jffhn wrote:
| >when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30
|
| Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out
| that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next
| decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their
| costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with
| your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person
| considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and
| they start playing with you childishly again.
|
| "I was ashamed of myself when I realized life was a costume
| party, and I attended with my real face." (Kafka)
|
| "Parents who expect gratitude from their children (there are
| even some who require it) are like those usurers who willingly
| risk the capital to receive interest." (Kafka)
| Solvency wrote:
| ...so what's your costume?
| jffhn wrote:
| Kafka's costume, obviously.
| riehwvfbk wrote:
| A giant vermin
| underlipton wrote:
| Fursuit.
| datameta wrote:
| A human skin one-piece that looks suspiciously like my
| biologically given body.
| a_gnostic wrote:
| One more layer than you...
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Intellectual, clever, technical, part of the knowing in-
| crowd of smart people - in other words, a HN commenter.
| throwanem wrote:
| What's yours?
| ptsneves wrote:
| Both the op and the answer are great and even the plea is
| inspiring.
|
| OP I am still a parent of 2 toddlers but I came to realise at
| almost 35 that I was an asshole to my parebts for a long part
| of my life. It is one of my biggest personal shames. On the
| other hand I believe such break up is needed to be willing to
| brave the world independently. We are one weird species, is
| my conclusion.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| >I came to realise at almost 35 that I was an asshole to my
| parents for a long part of my life.
|
| Two years ago, I helped my mother die (I was then still
| thirty-something, she was sixty).
|
| In such vulnerable situations, the honesty between our
| coupling (dying mother to mortal son) left us in a constant
| stream of mostly-happy tears.
|
| Hearing your mother, on her months-away deathbed, describe
| you as "a _bully_ , absolutely; sometimes even an
| _asshole_. But I love that you mostly bullied _assholes_ ,
| even your most-difficult brother (you could _always
| humiliate him when he NEEDED it_ ) and even me, sometimes,
| when I was acting out."
|
| RIP, Mom; I miss You immensely, even these two years later,
| but am so glad we were able to lessen the guilt and share
| in being _human_.
|
| >We are one weird species, is my conclusion.
|
| Wishing you well in your futures.
| xattt wrote:
| > Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure
| out that life is actually a costume party ...
|
| I read this in the voice of Douglas Adams.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I agree with this, the 'firing up of the brain' and puberty
| are closely correlated in my experience as a child and as a
| parent. I'm not well read on Kafka but it seems he would
| agree as well.
| ambyra wrote:
| Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out
| of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of
| sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their
| parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing
| stuff.
| anonym29 wrote:
| Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure
| they never have the time to practice their expressed interest
| in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative
| career.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| I've tried to encourage that many times... doesn't seem to
| be taking.
| ambyra wrote:
| Every kid I met hates/doesn't appreciate what their
| parents do/are at all. Like 0. I think it's an
| evolutionary adaptation.
| bfncieezo wrote:
| are you seriously arguing that children are better off in
| front of a computer than playing sports with their friends?
| bdjsiqoocwk wrote:
| Seriously maybe? What's so special about playing sports
| with friends? Why is that sooooo valuable? I never had an
| interest in sports, and so I made friends with other kids
| that had no interest in sports.
| kingkawn wrote:
| They are doing the reasonable thing to create differentiation
| between their personality development and yours. They are
| likely accurately identifying aspects of your behavior that are
| maladaptive to growing up in their era. The alienation is an
| effort to create room for themselves to become something else.
| You can respect the wisdom of their inclinations, or continue
| to prove them right by not doing so. Either way, they will make
| themselves as they need.
| anonym29 wrote:
| Decreasingly-recent ex-teenager here. I was a pretty terrible
| teenager but after my brain fired up, I made it clear to them
| how grateful I was for the immense personal sacrifices they
| both undertook to raise my siblings and I.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Yes - 100% confirm based on my experience as a grunting ape,
| and watching my nephew and nieces and cousins grow up. I have
| toddlers now, and am dreading the upcoming cave phase, esp
| because once they reach adulthood (real adulthood - 25/30),
| I'll be dying age.
| lp4vn wrote:
| "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they
| judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -- Oscar
| Wilde
|
| For me it's exactly the opposite. When I was a teenager I was
| always afraid and deferential of my parents, now I can't help
| but see them as narcisistic and abusive.
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| Sounds like you'll skip the "trouble with the law and court
| dates" phase of this. Congrats! You're doing great. I was not
| so lucky.
|
| A special shout out to Instagram and Tik Tok for the miserable
| cherry on top. I hope those platforms implode before the next
| child becomes a teen.
| mrj wrote:
| Confirmed, happily. My step-kids from my previous marriage are
| reaching this age and after several years of grunt-only
| communication, suddenly they are back in my life. It was
| obviously hard for them and lots of things happened that were
| out of any of our control, but even in this situation, they
| came back. It's a joy.
| djsavvy wrote:
| 25 here. Thanks for the reminder to call my parents.
| rayiner wrote:
| > I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are
| 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents
| when through to raise them.
|
| My wife and I never had much anger towards our parents, but
| whatever was there totally dissipated when we had our first
| child.
|
| I wonder if many millennials will never get that realization,
| after having kids a decade later in life than their parents
| did. We had our daughter in our mid-late 20s, as we were
| finishing law school. By the time we had our boys 6 and 8 years
| later, we had a house, we're established in our careers, etc.
| The parenting experience later in life was very different, and
| much easier--aside from less physical stamina--than it was
| earlier in life.
| smallerfish wrote:
| Seems like a good thread in which to recommend Chimp Empire on
| Netflix. It's beautifully shot, and quite dramatic. I wondered
| whether they had manufactured some of the storylines from the
| thousands of hours of footage, but according to a couple of
| interviews with uninvolved scientists that I read, it mostly
| checks out as an accurate portrayal.
| amelius wrote:
| Just give them iPads!
| tempodox wrote:
| So just like their human counterparts then.
| xyst wrote:
| Sounds about right. Humans also share this same behavior.
| Unfortunately it's not only their familial elders but just any
| older authority figure.
|
| Little shits.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-02-17 23:01 UTC)